Reading Group Discussions - The Gunslinger *major spoilers*

[Darkthoughts]

Those of you who have The Dark Tower: The Complete Concordance, may have noticed the section at the back called Reading Group Guides.
It poses very specific questions on each book in the series, which would be excellent for generating discussion amongst old and new fans alike.

So! Each week I will post one of the reading guide questions.
Threads from previous weeks will be left open so discussion can continue.

We'll start with The Gunslinger (the questions pertain to the Revised Edition) and the first question in the guide - feel free to join in and improve your DT knowledge :thumbsup:


Who is Roland of Gilead? What is his ancestry? How does his personal history reflect the history of his land?

[Darkthoughts]

Ok, those questions sucked :lol:
I'll skip ahead to the next ones - I think the end question is something that is often discussed and quite interests me:

In many ways, Roland reminds us of the semimythical gunslingers of the late-nineteenth-century American West. Like them, he is simultaneously part lawman and part outlaw. Are there any figures from folklore, history, or film that remind you of Roland? How is he similar to them and how is he different? Would you call Roland a hero or an anti-hero?

[mia/susannah]

I guess you could call Roland a hero. I know that along the path of the beam that he followed to reach the tower that he killed alot of people, some were innocents most were well deserving, he did save the tower and that kept everything from falling apart.

[sarah]

Well Roland is a hero to me. I think everyones point of view of what a hero is is different. Personally, I love Roland so much. That man went to hell and back again and again and he is still standing. He inspires me to complete my goals and be stronger. I will be reading about him the rest of my life.

As far as him reminding me of any other characters, I say no. I realize that Stephen King took bits a pieces and ideas from "spaghetti westerns" and from himself to make Roland, but to me he just is who he is. He is Roland and I love him.

[obscurejude]

Definitely an anti hero to begin with as we all seem to think based on the Tull conversations. After the first book, he changes, progresses, but never completely. When he kills Mordred (I read this about an hour ago :D) he's smiling grimly as he shoots his own son in the eye and watches him fall in a fire, his mood being described as "clear" and "cold." Maybe not "anti-hero" in the conventional Byronic sense, but close enough at times.

I like anti-heroes. :thumbsup:

[jayson]

I like anti-heroes. :thumbsup:

Same here. I consider Roland an anti-hero in the one sense. However, in the Joseph Campbell sense, Roland is on a hero's journey. An anti-hero is still a version of a hero for me by Campbell's standards.

[Darkthoughts]

In my dictionary (Encarta World Dictionary), antihero is defined as:
sb who is the central character in a story but who is not brave, noble or morally good as heroes traditionally are.

I wouldn't say Roland was without bravery, although there is sometimes a fine line between calculated and brave in his actions.
I find him to be noble too, by dint of what he is (gunslinger of Gilead and raised more or less as nobility) and also evident in his own persona in scenes such as the one at River Crossing.

Morally - yes, definately an antihero where his morals are concerned.
He's reminiscent of Alan Moore's antiheroes to me at times - hellbent on a crusade where he decieves himself that all he sacrifices (and makes sacrifice of!) is for a greater good - only to have his actions called in to question before him at his journey's destination.

[Jean]

In my dictionary (Encarta World Dictionary), antihero is defined as:
sb who is the central character in a story but who is not brave, noble or morally good as heroes traditionally are.
that's what I thought, too - while by definition of a hero, that's what Roland is. Ryan and Jayson: what do you mean by anti-hero? Why isn't just old plain hero enough?

[mia/susannah]

Well Roland is a hero to me. I think everyones point of view of what a hero is is different. Personally, I love Roland so much. That man went to hell and back again and again and he is still standing. He inspires me to complete my goals and be stronger. I will be reading about him the rest of my life.

As far as him reminding me of any other characters, I say no. I realize that Stephen King took bits a pieces and ideas from "spaghetti westerns" and from himself to make Roland, but to me he just is who he is. He is Roland and I love him.

very well said and I totally agree. Roland does not remind e of anyone but himself and while I don't particularly think of him as a hero, I certainly don't think of him as anithero either. I pretty much think of him as a very brave, calculating person who is on a path to save the tower which in return helps everyone

[jayson]

Ryan and Jayson: what do you mean by anti-hero? Why isn't just old plain hero enough?

He's both in my eyes. For starters, most other heroes that I've encountered in literature don't kill as many people as Roland has. This is not to say I disagree with his killings (say Tull for example) but it's not necessarily "heroic" behavior. Roland makes many choices which are questionable, at least from the standard hero perspective.

[Letti]

If I look at the whole saga Roland is a hero
BUT
if we are talking just about the Gunslinger he is an anti-hero.

[obscurejude]

If I look at the whole saga Roland is a hero
BUT
if we are talking just about the Gunslinger he is an anti-hero.

That's a good point Letti and sort of what I was going for. As usual you say it much more precise and accurate than me. :rose:

He still has those anti hero tendencies though, even at the end- that's why I included the reference about Mordred.

Jean, what about my post, specifically is confusing you? Maybe I can clear it up.

[Jean]

Jean, what about my post, specifically is confusing you? Maybe I can clear it up.
what would change if we remove all "anti-" from your post and leave just plain "hero"? It will make perfect sense, so I would like to see your definition of both "hero" and "anti-hero" to understand why you chose one over the other.

[Darkthoughts]

Next question :D (Feel free to keep discussion ongoing for previous questions.)

Why does the term Man In Black have such an emotional impact? What images do we automatically associate with such a figure? Do you believe that Walter is actually human? Is he demonic? What role does the demonic play in Roland's world?

[Jean]

Can tell you something noboby else will... We have a play (in verse) by Pushkin, about Mozart... where he confesses to Salieri (immediately after the latter has slipped poison into his wine) that a man, all dressed in Black, came to him and ordered a Requiem - and never came back, although the Requiem was ready. Nevertheless, says Mozart, since then "my man in black has been on my mind... he seems to be following me like a shade"

Afger that, the motif of a Man in Black repeated in our culture many times, especially in poetry. My favorite is the poem by Sergey Yessenin, by that very name - Black Man, which actually means Man in Black in context. It is about a "black man" (=man in black, or maybe a man whose face is concealed by the shadows) who comes to the drunk, exhausted, half-mad poet every night and reads him out of some abominable book the story of all his life, mocking, teasing, making horrid revelations; in the end, the poet hits him in the face, and breaks the mirror. It's one of the greatest poems ever, I'll try to translate it for you if I can't find a more or less adequate translation.

You see, Man in Black acquires overtones depending on the culture he is read into... he casts endless reflections... just like anything Tower-connected...

[Darkthoughts]

That's very interesting about Mozart - I'll have to ask my Dad if he's familiar with that, he's writing a fictional story based around Mozart's childhood :thumbsup:

[Jean]

Alexander Pushkin, Mozart and Salieri, - it's part Маленькие трагедии (The Little Tragedies), 1830, four plays in verse which I absolutely adore (I already quoted A Feast During the Plague elsewhere)

[Darkthoughts]

Are there English translations?

[Jean]

I hope not.

But I am afraid there are.

And above all I wish you, your father and anyone who understands poetry would learn Russian.

EDITED: there is. Here (http://members.aol.com/afrshaw/mozsal.htm). the problem is it's, at best, mediocre, and the original text is brilliant, perfect.

[Darkthoughts]

:D

The only Russian my Dad knows are a handful of words that the Russian psychologists he worked with taught him.
They are probably all drink related as they mostly talked after meals with plenty of vodka to hand!

[The Lady of Shadows]

okay, as to roland being a hero or an anti-hero. i think he is definitely an anti-hero in the gunslinger. to me, an anti-hero is someone who does what he wants to do regardless of the consequences. and in the gunslinger, this describes roland perfectly imo. what happened in tull, dropping jake. his whole attitude reeks of anti-hero. i think he gains some measure of hero in later books, but i don't think he ever really loses the anti-hero taint. ever.

[mia/susannah]

What I think of when I hear or read the man in black, is a shadow that also close by or something not particularlu evil but not good either

[sarah]

Letti started a thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1748)about this last year but it sort of died after awhile. I was thumbing through it and thought I'd post a link for those who wanted to check it out.

[The Lady of Shadows]

thanks for this link. i think whether or not roland is a hero is a fascinating topic. especially given all the different concepts of hero. not just dictionary definitions but our own personal concepts of who a hero is and what a hero should and should not do.

[Darkthoughts]

Next question!

One of Roland's favourite phrases is "the world has moved on." What does this mean? What do you think Roland's world was like before it moved on?

[LadyHitchhiker]

I think that Roland's world was lush, and that the time didn't change erratically before the world moved on.

Now as the world moves on, time almost becomes meaningless, and the deserts are much larger than they were before, because also with the change in time, it also affects how the world grows...

[Darkthoughts]

Throughout The Gunslinger, we are struck by the number of similarities between our world and Roland's world. The townsfolk of Tull know the words to the Beatle's song "Hey Jude", and they use bocks (bucks or dollars) as their currency. Jake's description of New York (recounted while he is under hypnosis) reminds Roland of the mythical city of Lud, and the tunnels beneath the Cyclopean Mountains contain the ruins of a subway system that remind Jake of home. How do you explain these similarities? What is the relationship between Roland's world and our world?

[BillyxRansom]

Maybe it's a twinner of our whole world!

[Darkthoughts]

Ha ha! This one might be of more interest, it was discussed in the Sylvia Pittston thread with a degree of controversy ;)

Although Sylvia Pittston claims to be a woman of God, she is actually one of the most destructive characters found in The Gunslinger. As Roland's lover Allie says, Pittston's religion is a poison. What role does Pittston play in the novel?

Have you come across Pittston-like characters in any of King's other fiction?

How do you explain the discrepancy between Pittston's professed role as preacher and her actual allegiance to the Man In Black and the Crimson King?

What are the divisions between good and evil in Roland's world?

[BlaineTheChooChooTrain]

Ill respond to the fourth question you posted, its been quite some time since ive read the books and I cant quite recall that particular event.

In Rolands world the land is ruled by what seems to be a monarchy of sorts, one man has absolute say over all the land, but in the eyes of Roland and his companions all is good and fair (those from his world not Jake, Eddie and Susannah).

The good man, Farson, could be seen as a revolutionary along the lines of George Washington and the other founding father of the US. He is fighting against what he sees as a tyrannical dictatorship.

The books dont go much into the politics of Gilead but one can be lead to assume it is good place to live, if you fit into the high echelons of the populace. Leaving the lower/middle class to pay higher taxes then the norm.

On the other hand, one can also assume that all is good in Gilead with a monarchy and John Farson prefers a Dictatorship versus fair treatment to all.

The line of good and evil is not very well defined in The Dark Tower series, its shown when Roland sacrifices Jake to continue his personal quest for the man in black, and with the 2 personalities of Sussannah, not to mention it requires the death of Jake to be brought into Rolands world only to be killed again and brought forth yet again to assist in the quest for the greater good.