PDA

View Full Version : Tull *possible spoilers*



Letti
06-19-2008, 10:13 PM
I think Tull deserves its own thread. :)
So... what did you think about Roland when you saw him killing like a robot? (I was only 12 at that time so it's hard to remember but I guess I was quite shocked.)
Did he have any other choice anyway? Did he really have to kill the children as well?
Open your mind to me, please.

ManOfWesternesse
06-20-2008, 01:35 AM
Tull was quite a massacre. Not that Roland had a lot of choice once it kicked off. - but before it did he had the opportunity to get out of town, and indeed I think he had at least some premonition of what was coming but chose to wait and face it rather than clear out. Was he right? Was there some good reason to stay? Was anything achieved by it? I tend to think not - better to have gone while he had the chance and leave them alive - and maybe that's one of the things he'll be measured by again.

On your 'did he have to kill the kid's' question - once it had kicked off and the fight was on I think he pretty much had to kill them all, yes. Very hard to spare anyone in the heat of that battle. The worst injury he suffered in the fight was a cut on the leg from a young boy with a knife.

The Lady of Shadows
06-20-2008, 04:35 PM
i've said this in other threads but now that tull has it's own thread what the hell. i think roland could have avoided what happened in tull. he knew there was a trap set there for him. he even said so. and he hung around anyway. that is the epitome of stupid in my opinion. what was the point of staying when he knew something bad was going to go down. he knew walter had been there and set a trap specifically for him - he said he knew it. yet he stayed.

and let's not forget, ladies and gentlemen, that he raped sylvia pittston with the gun of his father. for that is exactly what he did. whether she thought she was pregnant with a demon or not, whether we believe it or not, whether she really was or not - he raped that woman with a gun.

he stayed in that town, eating, drinking, and having sex with allie, all the time knowing that it was a trap just waiting to be sprung. what happened there happened because of him. because he stayed. and we have no way of knowing what would have happened if he had left.

maybe that's one of the things he has to change in his continuing quest. maybe that's one of the reasons he continues to loop. who knows? gan may know. i do not.

mia/susannah
06-20-2008, 07:15 PM
I tend to agree with some of what turtlesong and MOW says. Roland probably should have moved on instead of hanging around. There was really no reason for him to

Letti
06-20-2008, 11:23 PM
Maybe he was just lonely... ;)

Brice
06-21-2008, 02:43 AM
:rofl:

Brainslinger
06-21-2008, 05:39 AM
It's a difficult one really. Did he really need to kill them all? I think not. As others have said, he needn't have stayed that long. And even if he did, someone as good a shot as he needn't have killed them all. This is a guy who actually shot guns out of peoples hands in other books in the cycle, so he could have killed a few to make the point, and winged others. (Although leaving them wounded might have been a greater evil as he might have ended up leaving them to a lingering death of infection etc... but they would have a chance at least.) The trouble is, it seems the gunslinger machine had taken over at that point and Roland was blazing away to his own god-drums.

That's no excuse though, he could have still done something when he was thinking clearly. Part of being a gunslinger is about keeping a cool head anyway, not just blasting away in a red hot heat.

And then there is what he did to Sylvia Pittson, which has been mentioned already. The interesting is I was just thinking about that a couple of days ago, and pretty much on those exact lines, she may or may not have had a demon baby, but what he did indeed was rape, and thoroughly wrong. Then I look on here today, and Letti has started a thread on Tull, and someone (with the name Turtlesong too -ka?) voicing my thoughts. Makes you wonder if there's something in that whole ka-tet khef thing doesn't it? Internet khef... hee hee.

On the other hand another thought occurs to me. Whilst what he did in Tull was wrong, it's often or not the bad things we do or experience in life that can ultimately shape us for the better(or worse depending on how we allow such experiences to affect us). We know from his conversation with Brown that he felt bad about Tull. Could it be, that the guilt was one of the factors which made him reassess what he had become, triggering the process of becoming a better man as a result? He still had/has a long way to go. He still dropped Jake later, but I wonder if Tull started those gears grinding.

That's not to say that he need repeat these bad actions every cycle though. (Unfortunately Tull is done and dusted anyway happening before the loop... I'm mainly thinking of Jake here.) Sure he forgets, but I like to think he brings something of what he learnt across with him, subconsciously at least. Either how could he ever progress?

sarah
06-21-2008, 11:59 AM
Here are some remarks people made about Tull in the Best Fight threads.

Mark:


Tull didn't seem too much of a fight to me, more of a slaughter. DettaDelgado:


Tull. It was the first time I saw Roland draw his guns, and it left an impression, slaughtering a town like that.mia/susannah:


I don't see Tull as much of a fight. It was a exciting scene don't get me wrong but not much of a fight. brainslinger:


I don't count Tull really as to me it was more of an execution than an actual fight. Ok, there were enough people to be a hazard, even for a gunslinger, but even so.
wizardsrainbow:


I guess I am a purist at heart and have an affinity for the first book....Roland kicks serious butt in Tull. I would like to see him reload and reload with the spent shell casings burning the tips of his fingers.
obscurejude:


You know what, I just realized how indelible of an impression Tull makes on the reader. It sticks with you for the rest of the series and puts everything related to Roland in perspective, including later fight scenes. One of the appeals of the gas station is that he is with someone else, but that is appreciable (for me) because of Tull and its solitariness.feverishparade:


Tull is the best because it was more intense, more action packed, and it was the most memorable.
turtlesong:


you know, the thing about tull is Roland knew it was a trap. he fucking knew it and he stayed anyway. he didn't gain anything there. he didn't come across any great and wonderous knowledge. he didn't find new weapons, make any new discoveries, draw anyone. . .

he ate, he fucked, he massacred.

he knew it was a trap and he stayed anyway. he even told himself he should leave and he stayed anyway. that's not a battle, that's not a heroic fight, that's a fucking massacre.

and i swear to gan, the first person who says ka to me is going to get shot.
feverishparade:


So what if he knew it was a trap? That doesn't make the battle any less amazing.


KAarthur heath:


I would describe amazing as overcoming a great obstacle. Roland backpedaling, shooting what may as well be slow mutants is no great obstacle.
feverishparade:


You think avoiding 57 people with knifes and pitchforks is easy? Roland is a Gunslinger, he's not Neo in the Matrix where he can keep track of everybodys movements. And if it was such an easy battle, then why is that the only battle in which he sustained injuries?

Letti
06-21-2008, 01:25 PM
Your rock, Sarah.
Thank you. :rose:

Letti
06-21-2008, 01:28 PM
The trouble is, it seems the gunslinger machine had taken over at that point and Roland was blazing away to his own god-drums.

That's what I think the truth is. Damn sad but it is.
Roland enjoyed it. It's not easy to write it down because I love and respect him but I think that's the truth. He wanted to feel that he was still alive and he was still a gunslinger.
He proved it.

Jean
06-21-2008, 02:12 PM
The trouble is, it seems the gunslinger machine had taken over at that point and Roland was blazing away to his own god-drums.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif

Darkthoughts
06-21-2008, 02:33 PM
I also thought it was written to purposely make the point to us, what kind of a man that Roland was at that stage. It makes it all the more amazing that he goes on to form the connections he does with his new ka-tet.
Its another redemption, from the bitterness caused by the loss of his first ka-tet, to the growth he makes with the new.

Brainslinger
06-22-2008, 08:25 AM
I also thought it was written to purposely make the point to us, what kind of a man that Roland was at that stage. It makes it all the more amazing that he goes on to form the connections he does with his new ka-tet.
Its another redemption, from the bitterness caused by the loss of his first ka-tet, to the growth he makes with the new.

I totally agree.

Girlystevedave
06-23-2008, 06:29 AM
I may not have the right words to justify 'using a gun to rape a woman' or killing 57 people, but I do believe that the events in Tull were part of Ka and Roland was destined to live every moment of it.
If he hadn't stuck around as long as he did, he would have learned nothing about The Man In Black. That was his purpose for stumbling upon Tull, I believe. The MIB may have 'set a trap' for him there, but I think Roland did a good job of wriggling his way out of it.
This is my opinion: Tull was doomed anyway. You could see that when Roland first enters the town. What do we see in Tull: Drunkenness, fathers sleeping with their daughters, a distorted preacher...
The way I see it, Roland was just cleaning up the place..while showing how badass of a fighter he was.
:)

The Lady of Shadows
06-23-2008, 01:09 PM
oh fine. bring out ka. :) :couple:

and just so we're clear. there is nothing that can justify rape. with a gun or anything else. not even ka. after dropping jake, that was the worst thing he ever did. and the most unforgivable.

Darkthoughts
06-23-2008, 01:37 PM
You know, I never read it like that.

The Lady of Shadows
06-23-2008, 02:18 PM
You know, I never read it like that.

:unsure:
never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?

Empath of the White
06-23-2008, 05:19 PM
You know, I never read it like that.

:unsure:
never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?

suprise sex. Actually in the unrevised version, was Sylvia preggers and did Roland still do that , er...trick with the revolver?

As for Tull, I recall thinking, "wow, this is our hero. I wonder what the villains are like?"

In retrospect, I think that Roland wanted to kill them. I'm of the opinion that he was still carrying some baggage from the fall of Gilead and Jericho Hill. It was unfortunate that Tull was the place he relieved himself of some of that baggage. :shoot:

My opinion. IIRC, Roland could've avoided it if he forgot the mule and just bolted. Of course then his load would be heavier and he did have that vast desert to cross.

obscurejude
06-23-2008, 05:26 PM
I'm leaning toward what Amanda said. I have no real qualms with Roland and Tull.

Lisa, I never really read it that way either.

ManOfWesternesse
06-24-2008, 12:34 AM
You know, I never read it like that.

:unsure:
never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?

Lisa, I agree.
1. She wasn't pregnant, with a child or a demon or anything else.
2. I don't think the gun got, um.... that far. I think the mere proximity of than ancient killing machine caused the reaction it did in her (and quickly too!)
3. Was she crazy? Was she possessed by a demon? Was she a demon? (Roland had a moment later when he wondered if the Demonic spirit in the stone circle might have been Sylvia's?- but dismissed it as unlikely?). Not that those things are nessecarily relevant to the question in hand, but I wonder about them.

Certainly I don't think 'rape' describes that scene.

HanzouNorak
06-24-2008, 01:58 AM
god, Tull was the reason i stayed with it, when i read, even if i like the book, if theres no action or nothing really interesting for awhile i get bored, then the battle at Tull comes along and i cant put the book down.

i agree with Wes on his points too, especially the last sentence.

Darkthoughts
06-24-2008, 02:58 AM
You know, I never read it like that.

:unsure:
never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?

Yep, pretty much :D

Up until Roland threatens to kill her unborn demon, she seems to be expecting to sleep with him - Walter has told her that Roland will want to. She warns Roland that if he sleeps with her it may kill him (she thinks the demon spawn has this power) but she doesn't seem to have an issue with it at that point:

She smiled up at him lazily. "He said you would want to bed me. Do you?"
"Yes."
"The price is your life, gunslinger."

It's only when Roland puts his hand to his gun and tells her that he can rid her of the demon, that she tells him not to touch her.
After that yes, he does put the gun inside her against her will (even though she appears to climax from it). Its not rape, its sexual assault, but even so in her case I don't think I'd describe it as such - I'd call it retaliation.
Sylvia was a very real threat to him - she attacked him first in her own way (by turning Tull against him in the sermon) and he retaliated.

I doubt she was really impregnanted, Roland doubted it too - when he leaves he says "No child...No angel. No demon." I think Walter made it up to further bind her to his will.

The Lady of Shadows
06-24-2008, 03:31 PM
has everyone gone completely insane?

Rape: Forced sexual intercourse; sexual assault; sexual intercourse between an adult and a minor. Rape may be heterosexual (involving members of opposite sexes) or homosexual (involving members of the same sex). Rape involves insertion of an erect penis or an inanimate object into the female vagina or the male anus. Legal definitions of rape may also include forced oral sex and other sexual acts.

that is the medical definition of rape. most legal definitions include that definition as well. roland inserted his gun into sylvia's vagina. and the text says that he was especially careful not to let her flesh touch his as he was doing it. that my friends is rape. woman do not ask to be raped, and how is a forcible insertion of a gun into a woman's vagina retaliation for words?

has everyone gone completely insane?

bangoskank1
06-24-2008, 03:34 PM
well said turtle...point proven in my eyes

Jean
06-25-2008, 12:03 AM
god, Tull was the reason i stayed with it
Tull was the reason why I almost dropped the book - I would have, if in that hospital there were any other books available right away

Brice
06-25-2008, 12:40 AM
has everyone gone completely insane?

Rape: Forced sexual intercourse; sexual assault; sexual intercourse between an adult and a minor. Rape may be heterosexual (involving members of opposite sexes) or homosexual (involving members of the same sex). Rape involves insertion of an erect penis or an inanimate object into the female vagina or the male anus. Legal definitions of rape may also include forced oral sex and other sexual acts.

that is the medical definition of rape. most legal definitions include that definition as well. roland inserted his gun into sylvia's vagina. and the text says that he was especially careful not to let her flesh touch his as he was doing it. that my friends is rape. woman do not ask to be raped, and how is a forcible insertion of a gun into a woman's vagina retaliation for words?

has everyone gone completely insane?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the point at hand. :lol:

I'd say that while by our current legal and medical definitions that what he does in this scene would constitute rape in our society, but let's remember where our country was not so long ago. Our current legal and medical positions have come about through a long process of refinement. Twenty to thirty years ago in most states most cops would tell you that a husband couldn't rape his wife...because she was his. Pretty much the same attitude applied to beating your wife or kid (with possible exception of a beating that resulted in their death) Matter of fact in many social circles it was basically considered a man's duty as a husband to keep his wife and kid's in line. What I'm getting at here is that our view as a society has progressed toward where we are now. In various times and places it has been much different. In some parts of the world a woman is considered at fault for rape automatically. And they would argue sincerely that this is right. What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.


And to call Sylvia's sermon just words greatly underestimates the power of words. A skillful speaker can incite people to the point of murder or laying down their own life. I'd say at that point words are more than "just words"
If that were the case there would be no such thing as slander or threats as crimes. I could say I'm gonna' kill the president tomorrow at noon and mean it and have no problems.... because they're just words.

Jean
06-25-2008, 01:19 AM
What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.
So, from where you stand here and now, it was a rape, right?

Brice
06-25-2008, 01:21 AM
What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.
So, from where you stand here and now, it was a rape, right?

Yes, I think it was.

ManOfWesternesse
06-25-2008, 05:36 AM
What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.
So, from where you stand here and now, it was a rape, right?

Yes, I think it was.
Maybe on a strict medical or legal definition it would have to be ruled as rape.

But when I read that scene, 'rape' is not the description that comes to mind for me. Why is that?
It's not that it's fiction, or fantasy even, other books have proven that for me (Stephen Donaldson anyone?).
It's Sylvia, I think. What is she? / what was she before Walter? / what did he make of her? - that's what's influencing my view I think....

Darkthoughts
06-25-2008, 07:05 AM
I agree with Brian. And also the way in which Brice illustrated my point - Sylvia incited the whole of Tull to rise up against Roland, if you wanted to take that to court I'm sure a good lawyer could find a way to hold her responsible for the death of the citizens of Tull even.

But, mostly the bottom line is - no, I'm not insane. If we were talking about real life I'd have to consider Roland's actions very carefully, because yes, he did assault her. But, its fiction! :lol: As Brian said, there are other considerations too, did Walter transfer some kind of power to Sylvia, was she entirely human? Etc - in the case of this story its not a simple fact of "he raped her, he is wrong!" It's way more complicated - morally and factually.

The Lady of Shadows
06-25-2008, 09:56 AM
i'm not saying that sylvia's actions weren't wrong. and i'm not saying that raising the town against roland wasn't wrong. i'm saying that when you weigh the two things. . . .

he's supposed to be on the side of the white. he's supposed to be searching for the tower. he's going to have to save the beams. and he's staying in the town, knowing there's a trap. and he rapes this woman with his gun.

the bottom line is he should be better than that. he's a gunslinger. he's not a monster, or at least he shouldn't be. he's not some thug, or at least he shouldn't be. he's an instrument of the white.

i really think tull is one of the reasons he's in a loop in the first place.

:throws up hands and leaves:

Darkthoughts
06-25-2008, 10:14 AM
I agree that his actions in Tull are utterly contrary to what he is supposed to stand for. But to me, that was the purpose of the book - to show the man that Roland had become at that point.

ManOfWesternesse
06-25-2008, 03:07 PM
....:throws up hands and leaves:

Get back in the ring - it's only an argument! :lol: (and not even that - only a discussion).
You make a good & fair point turtle, I've even admitted that, to me, it's 'strictly' valid. I can only repeat that, when I read the scene (& I've read it a good many times) 'rape' is not what comes to mind. & to be fair to you, you make me question that a bit - but on balance I don't think I see it that way.
Good debate now & again is what makes this place (& .net before it) worth belonging to.

The Lady of Shadows
06-25-2008, 05:52 PM
so a real gunslinger waits around in towns were they know a trap is set and waiting to be sprung? a real gunslinger eats, drinks, and fucks while waiting for the trap to just close around him? say sorry, i don't think so. and that's what roland did in tull.


and yeah, MoW, you know i can't leave. i'm just to contrary to do that. :lol:

Girlystevedave
06-25-2008, 06:17 PM
Hell, Roland even stumbling upon Jake was a trap. He even knew that "the Man In Black carried his soul in his pocket as long as he traveled with the boy". Does that mean that keeping Jake around as long as he did was a waste of time too?

obscurejude
06-25-2008, 06:22 PM
Hell, Roland even stumbling upon Jake was a trap. He even knew that "the Man In Black carried his soul in his pocket as long as he traveled with the boy". Does that mean that keeping Jake around as long as he did was a waste of time too?

It goes back to the poem folks. The Hoary Cripple (definitely Walter at this point for King) points to the direction of the Dark Tower ("which all agree") but the first line of the poem is, "My first thought was he lied in every word." My point: they are "traps" in a sense, but in another they all lead to the Dark Tower. Amanda makes a really good point. I could go on for about 150- pages but I'll stop.

Turtlesong, rape is a sensitive subject I don't offer any of this in a belittling way. :couple:

Girlystevedave
06-25-2008, 06:22 PM
So, he should have left the boy?

If he had left Jake behind, then Roland never would have let him fall, allowing Jake back into his world, where he was pulled through to the ka-tet.

obscurejude
06-25-2008, 06:31 PM
I know all that.
I just found Jake to be very annoying!

And you think that you're in hot water for calling Roland dumb. :nope:

Girlystevedave
06-25-2008, 06:32 PM
Jake annoying?
:o

The Lady of Shadows
06-25-2008, 06:54 PM
Hell, Roland even stumbling upon Jake was a trap. He even knew that "the Man In Black carried his soul in his pocket as long as he traveled with the boy". Does that mean that keeping Jake around as long as he did was a waste of time too?

absolutely not. we all know how i feel about jake. and i never said that he was wasting his time in tull. i said that staying in tull didn't make any sense when he knew that a trap had been laid for him.


Actually I've always thought Roland was a little stupid.
Just thought I would get lynched for saying so.

In most westerns form the '70s the "good guy" is usually a pretty rotten person. He's just a little nicer then the "bad guys". What you would call a anti-hero.

I figured Roland stayed in Tull as long as he did because he really didn't want to keep going. And in a way part of it was because he was lonely. He's sort of a wimpy guy. Doesn't really know when to leave to avoid trouble. Like in Mejis, he could have avoided that trouble if hadn't been so unsure of what to do. Seems like being unsure about to do is his way of handling everything. Just wait until you can't get out and then kill everybody. After all, he can always blame ka for it in the end.

well, i don't know if you'll get lynched but maybe :shoot: by certain quarters. :lol: see, i thought he didn't want to keep going on some level as well. and cowardice is no trait for a gunslinger to possess. but he knew when to leave to avoid trouble, he just didn't. that's stupidity. he wasn't unsure as much as - resigned?



<snip>
It goes back to the poem folks. The Hoary Cripple (definitely Walter at this point for King) points to the direction of the Dark Tower ("which all agree") but the first line of the poem is, "My first thought was he lied in every word." My point: they are "traps" in a sense, but in another they all lead to the Dark Tower. Amanda makes a really good point. I could go on for about 150- pages but I'll stop.

Turtlesong, rape is a sensitive subject I don't offer any of this in a belittling way. :couple:

i know you don't and yes it is a very sensitive subject. i just have a hard time seeing how anyone could NOT see what he did for what it was. it's described that way in the book. it's very confusing to me.


I know all that.
I just found Jake to be very annoying!

aaaaaaaand let the lynching commence. :shoot: but still -------> :couple:



I know all that.
I just found Jake to be very annoying!

And you think that you're in hot water for calling Roland dumb. :nope:

yeah, what he said!!!!

obscurejude
06-25-2008, 07:02 PM
I shall keep my mouth shut and stay out of tull from now on!
Before I make anymore enemies!

:skulks quietly out of the room with head down:

Hey, no enemies and no worries. :couple:

obscurejude
06-25-2008, 07:07 PM
You didn't see the crowd with the pitchforks and flaming torchs!

We all love Jake and fell in love with him immediately- Some of us for twenty years. No one hates you.

The Lady of Shadows
06-25-2008, 07:18 PM
here's some cookies dear sai cloud. and some chocolate. now come out from under the couch. don't make me come in there after you. :lol:

Brainslinger
06-26-2008, 03:08 AM
Indeed it was a form of rape. I also agree it was ka that it happened, but that doesn't make those acts ok. It was ka Susan would be burnt by the people of Hambry too, but it was still an evil act right?

If I understand ka correctly it can employ any act or event, good or evil to perform it's purpose. To quote Monty Pythons Life of Brian, Roland was a very naughty boy. ;)

As I said earlier though, I think all these base acts might have ironically contributed to his somewhat change of heart later though, or rather the guilt that resulted. The emphasis seemed more on the massacre of Tull mind, but I think the whole thing was a bad move. The murder, the rape, and yes, even the way he treated Allie, albeit with her consent.

Darkthoughts
06-26-2008, 03:17 AM
As I said earlier though, I think all these base acts might have ironically contributed to his somewhat change of heart later though, or rather the guilt that resulted.
My point entirely, or rather I think, King's point entirely.

I think all the events in Tull were to illustrate that he had reached his lowest point. That he stayed, despite knowing it was a trap, because he felt that this was who he had become - a remorseless killer - so, why not resign himself to it and act out the part.

The dropping of Jake is a contrast to this, and also his turning point. He has learned to like and have some compassion for Jake - but when he lets him drop, he feels he has betrayed him more than anyone in Tull - its the pivotal point in the change.

Shit, I just debunked my "he must not drop Jake" theory...I'll have to find some way to take that back :lol:

ManOfWesternesse
06-26-2008, 03:21 AM
:clap:

The Lady of Shadows
06-26-2008, 03:11 PM
ka's a bitch ain't it? :cool:

BillyxRansom
08-13-2008, 08:48 AM
Very simple, here's the line from which I will draw (hee) my response:

There was a tight feeling in his throat. He might still avoid the trap, but the chances were small. He was, after all, the interloper.

I believe he knew that they thought him a bad, bad man. And so, he would face the consequences that he knew would come. This is what I think:

I think they knew he would not die, not by any of their own hands. I think that the man in black set it up so that the gunslinger would kill them. I think that was his punishment, to see all these people strewn about on the "dusty, droppings-strewn floor".

Somehow, he thought that if they thought him the interloper, then maybe he is; but to him, that was not his call to make. His killing them was the trap. He did not escape the trap, he fell directly into it. This was just another test and he failed, but it ended up being exactly what he deserved, somehow.

Matt
08-13-2008, 12:20 PM
That's a cool perspective Billy--killing them all and having to deal with that would be one hell of a trap

BillyxRansom
08-13-2008, 01:22 PM
That's a cool perspective Billy--killing them all and having to deal with that would be one hell of a trap

Thanks. :)

I have to wonder, though, how did these people all come to see him as such, the interloper? I mean, I understand it was Walter's(?)/Randall's(?) doing, to mystify these people into thinking that about him, but did he just hypnotize the people, or did he use some 1337 ass pwnage-like skillz to influence the people to see that way of thinking?

Hmm...

ManOfWesternesse
08-13-2008, 02:20 PM
I have to wonder, though, how did these people all come to see him as such, the interloper?...

Yeah.... I thought it was heavily hinted in the book that he (Walter) used Sylvia to turn the populace of Tull against him and to work them up into a frenzied attack. But then I've had to wonder how that affected the non-churchgoers like Allie, as every man, woman and child in Tull participated?....

Brainslinger
08-14-2008, 06:02 AM
Yeah.... I thought it was heavily hinted in the book that he (Walter) used Sylvia to turn the populace of Tull against him and to work them up into a frenzied attack. But then I've had to wonder how that affected the non-churchgoers like Allie, as every man, woman and child in Tull participated?....

I think the majority of people in Tull attended the church. Possibly even everyone, with the exception of Allie.

I have to admit, I wondered how they could be so easily manipulated to that extent. I used to be a church goer. It was a pentacostal church too, so lots of dancing and excitement etc, and I've seen people get pretty worked up (although it was pretty tame compared to some places. Not that I'm suggesting the preaching in my Church was negative like Sylvia's) But to go to that extreme is a whole other thing.

Course we have to remember the entire town was miserable. Strange things had happened to put everyone on edge (particularly the business with Nort and the Man in Black.) And the sermon we saw was just the finale of a whole series of poison preaching. And throw in the possibility of enchantment too.

Don't highlight following Spoiler unless you've read Wolves of the Calla
Bear in mind Walter may well have had a certain black glass with him at that point. Remember the affect that could have on peoples minds.

I think Roland's arrival just provided the catalyst to set everything off.

Matt
08-14-2008, 06:20 AM
I think so too, those folks were on the edge of madness long before either of them showed up and Walter understood that. He whipped them into a frenzy with a few parlor tricks and mob mentality handled it from there.

Letti
08-15-2008, 01:53 AM
Agree.
They had been hungry for evil for long.

BillyxRansom
08-19-2008, 08:33 AM
Maybe they were, Letti. But I kind of doubt it. I doubt that they wanted evil. Maybe they just needed something to ruffle their feathers. But it just seems too damned random (not King's fault, I just mean in terms of the actual story) for them to just think of Roland as the interloper. I say it was Walter's doing. If not, and you are right, then that town deserved the fate it got. God needed to cleanse the town just because there was no hope for it. And this was the way to do it.

jayson
08-19-2008, 08:39 AM
say it was Walter's doing. If not, and you are right, then that town deserved the fate it got. God needed to cleanse the town just because there was no hope for it. And this was the way to do it.

I'd say they got what they deserved regardless. When you attack a Gunslinger, you should expect to get shot. :shoot:

Matt
08-19-2008, 09:50 AM
I don't think she really needed the whole town, they just needed a few.

Mobs will kill, it becomes a mind of its own and everyone in it does not always agree with what its doing, but do it anyway.

Have you guys ever seen a mob attack on the internet? Its not pretty.

BillyxRansom
08-20-2008, 09:47 AM
I don't think she really needed the whole town, they just needed a few.

Mobs will kill, it becomes a mind of its own and everyone in it does not always agree with what its doing, but do it anyway.

Have you guys ever seen a mob attack on the internet? Its not pretty.

The internet is a whole other monster. Hahaha.

Letti
08-20-2008, 10:00 AM
Maybe they were, Letti. But I kind of doubt it. I doubt that they wanted evil. Maybe they just needed something to ruffle their feathers. But it just seems too damned random (not King's fault, I just mean in terms of the actual story) for them to just think of Roland as the interloper. I say it was Walter's doing. If not, and you are right, then that town deserved the fate it got. God needed to cleanse the town just because there was no hope for it. And this was the way to do it.

There is always hope but it's always easier to find enemies than to find friends or helpers.

BillyxRansom
08-20-2008, 10:12 AM
So then the town was selfish? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. It's certainly very plausible.

Letti
08-20-2008, 10:28 AM
So then the town was selfish? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. It's certainly very plausible.

Why do you think it was selfish?

BillyxRansom
08-25-2008, 09:55 AM
So then the town was selfish? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. It's certainly very plausible.

Why do you think it was selfish?

Why WOULDN'T it be selfish? To find enemies, which is, as you said, easier to do, than to try to find the ability to be friendly with someone, even someone that some evil preacher lady claims is "the interloper"?
It's always less selfish to try to find kindness in your heart. I don't know, hopefully that makes sense. Maybe I'm just missing the point entirely. Hmm.

Brainslinger
08-25-2008, 10:39 AM
Their subsistent existence coupled with the poison preaching of the preacher lady mixed with fear of the outside, certainly could lend to a selfish attitude. Or at least self-centred (which isn't necessarily the same as selfish, although I think both would apply here).

I think fear and confusion are the main problem though, building up the instability, leaving Walter (via Sylvia) to set loose the rock-slide. Metaphorically speaking of course.

BillyxRansom
08-25-2008, 11:10 AM
Maybe. I can see it. It just seems too damn easy. That was probably the whole idea behind that town, though. That was who they are. They just needed to be washed out. They were bad people, easily influenced by anything, and they just needed to be cleansed.

Brainslinger
08-25-2008, 11:52 AM
I don't think they were neccesarily all that bad though, at least not to start with. I think fear and the mob mentality can make people do what they wouldn't normally.

Later books spoilers-Another example would be what the townsfolk of Hambry did to poor Susan. Also throw in the influence of a certain glass ball in Walter's luggage which can amplify negative thoughts and emotions... Bear in mind this is before he reached the Way station...

BillyxRansom
08-25-2008, 12:35 PM
It goes back to that damn thing. Guh. It's really quite sad to me, thinking about it.

Matt
08-25-2008, 01:23 PM
I think we have to consider the fact that the Tower is running this whole deal. The ending clearly shows that all is not what it seems and it could be the entire town was there simply because the Tower wanted it to be and in that capacity, it acted accordingly.

Brainslinger
08-25-2008, 02:59 PM
I think we have to consider the fact that the Tower is running this whole deal. The ending clearly shows that all is not what it seems and it could be the entire town was there simply because the Tower wanted it to be and in that capacity, it acted accordingly.

Caught up in ka's wind.

BRRRRRRRRP!

Ooooh, pardon me. Someone open a window.

(I'm not making fun of your statement, it's a good one. It just struck me that my ka's wind comment was a bit cheesy.)

Matt
08-25-2008, 03:02 PM
All things serve the beam after all. :cowboy:

Letti
08-26-2008, 09:06 PM
So then the town was selfish? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. It's certainly very plausible.

Why do you think it was selfish?

Why WOULDN'T it be selfish? To find enemies, which is, as you said, easier to do, than to try to find the ability to be friendly with someone, even someone that some evil preacher lady claims is "the interloper"?
It's always less selfish to try to find kindness in your heart. I don't know, hopefully that makes sense. Maybe I'm just missing the point entirely. Hmm.

I don't know I just wouldn't describe them selfish.
They were lost.. hopeless.. bitter.. some of them were really evil and there were insane ones as well. But I wouldn't use the word selfish in this case but it doesn't mean they weren't.

The Lady of Shadows
08-27-2008, 05:14 PM
okay, jumping back in here then i'm leaving again. because we all know how i feel about this. :lol:

the town wasn't selfish. they were stupid maybe. they were ignorant probably. they were defeated before roland ever set eyes on the place absolutely. the man in black wound them up and set them spinning like tops.

want to know who was selfish? roland. roland was fucking selfish that's who. he knew there was a fucking trap there and he fucking stayed anyway. he stayed, he fucked, he ate, he drank, and he waited until something happened so that he could unleash all his anger and frustration and hate and bitterness on someone or something. and it turned out to be that town.

yes, walter cast whatever spell he did. yes, sylvia thought she was carrying a child (she wasn't). yes the town turned on roland. but he knew from the very beginning that there was a trap laid for him in that town (he said as much) and he fucking stayed anyway. he could have left and chose not to. that is selfish. that is stupid. that isn't ka. that's just one man who is tired, and hungry, and wants to get laid.

/rant

the turtle has left the thread.

Brainslinger
08-28-2008, 02:02 PM
Snigger. f x 5

BeDaN
09-25-2008, 05:56 AM
Wasn't the trap pretty much set up to go off when he was leaving town? So whether he went earlier or later whenever he left it would go down.

Brainslinger
09-25-2008, 08:45 AM
Wasn't the trap pretty much set up to go off when he was leaving town? So whether he went earlier or later whenever he left it would go down.

I got the impression that the trap was waiting. He sensed it was coming, and had he left, he likely would have avoided it. The impression I go though was that he was meant to experience it (ka), or at least he felt he did.

So actually you might be right in that sense. If it was ka, and he left before the trap shut, maybe it would have caught up with him later. A posse of villagers led by a well endowed preacher lady targeting him like a pair of heat-seeking missiles. BOOM, BOOM!

BeDaN
09-25-2008, 08:42 PM
Either way they were weak-minded and it was THAT which allowed them to be controlled. They had it coming!

Brainslinger
09-27-2008, 05:13 AM
I agree, being weak minded was their main fault whatever their other issues.

LadyHitchhiker
10-30-2008, 05:02 AM
Why did he kill Alice? I still don't get it. I rather liked her. She just wanted love... kind of reminded me of myself in that situation.

The Lady of Shadows
10-30-2008, 12:46 PM
she was being held by one of the townspeople and was asking for roland to kill her because she had said the secret word to nort and he (nort) had told her what walter had told him and it was driving her mad.

at least that's the way i read it.

any other theories.

Brice
10-30-2008, 12:51 PM
Well, in the revised that's true, but in the original it's more ambiguous and doesn't really allow for that answer as the whole 19 thing is outside of that. I think in the original it is a matter of him just being in that zone where everything he sees dies. That and the fact that his brief relationship with Allie seems somewhat less developed.

sarah
10-30-2008, 01:24 PM
Yeah, I agree with Brice. When you're a gunslinger and you're in that zone (or zonie? ;)) Roland just does what his instincts tell him to do.

Darkthoughts
10-30-2008, 01:30 PM
Agreed, although (in the original) I think SK also had him kill her so that the reader would realise what kind of man Roland was at that point. That he was utterly ruthless and merciless and not easily affected by human contact...thus to pave the way for what a revelation the closeness he felt to Jake was. And so that we would know how huge a sacrifice it was for him to drop Jake, which also let us know just how big a deal the Tower was to him.

LadyHitchhiker
10-30-2008, 03:08 PM
I guess I must be rereading the unrevised, because it's one I bought at a garage sale since mine are in kansas in some stoner hippie's possession. But it still didn't make sense to me after reading the whole series other than proving that point.

Letti
10-31-2008, 12:34 PM
He killed him because he was a killing machine at that time.

LadyHitchhiker
11-02-2008, 01:06 PM
Do you think he would have still killed Alice if he had dropped Jake first? After having met Jake and opened his heart would he be able to just kill her that easily?

Letti
11-02-2008, 01:26 PM
I don't think he could open his heart to Jake, either. If he could he closed it very quickly when he chose the Man in Black istead of the boy. So yes, I think he would have killed Alice the same way after having met Jake.

Jean
11-02-2008, 11:49 PM
do you remember his dream, the one with which The Drawing of the Three opens? He was not the same after meeting Jake, it's an absolutely different man than what we saw in The Gunslinger.

LadyHitchhiker
11-04-2008, 03:24 PM
That was my opinion as well, Jean. I think he scarred himself dropping Jake.

Letti
11-06-2008, 12:30 PM
Yes, he was different. He took some really important steps but somehow I feel he wasn't ready yet to be able to stop himself when he grabbed his gun. I might be wrong.

Doc_Gamecock
11-17-2008, 11:21 AM
I think throughout the entire series Roland has a choice early on, in many situations, to stop things before they get out of control. He tends to know/understand more than the ppl around him in regards to the "big picture" of the world. In Tull, this manifests itself when he visits the preacher woman and finds out about the question the bartender needs to ask of the weed-chewing guy that was resurrected.
It seems like he knew the fat preacher lady was a huge cancer in the town and he should have killed her right off. He probably should ahve killed the weed-eater right off as a mercy kill to spare him his continued existence and save the rest of Tull.
Roland tends to favor choice. He allows everyone to choose their own path even though he knows a better or quicker way to deal with things. He favors allowing ppl to discover new thigns on their own terms if they choose to do so. He chooses to react instead of be proactive or preventative. He then only reacts when his hand is forced and his back is against the wall.
Some of this may be in part to him understanding the dangers and knowing he can overcome them, or the fact that he's simply apathetic to anything that doesn't specifically deal in his search with the tower. Perhaps he views it all as a test for him and navigates it as best as he can.
Roland sees things for what they are and knew from the beginning that the preacher woman was a problem in that town and would likely cause him problems. It was within his power to kill her and he chose not to. He just lets things come as they will.

Whitey Appleseed
12-21-2008, 01:04 PM
I'm reading the original, read the revised several times. I'd read this thread earlier and figured to come back and post. Didn't seem like Roland had a choice in the matter. Seems like he had to kill, or be killed. The trap had been set. I guess he wasn't in the holiday spirit.

One idea that's kinda interesting is the 'cosmic comic'. Walter. Don't know if you want me to take some returnables from other King stuff and drop them on the counter here, so I'll wrap the next in a spoiler, from Insomnia, when Ralph, or someone else...doesn't matter, really, but they are thinking about the Three Wise Men. Never considered it, really, like these three (usually the number given) wise men go to a king and ask to see another one, born king...but how wise could they be to do something like that...and I think the suggestion is that there's another force out there, the 'cosmic comic', if you will, influencing things...good/evil...and the cosmic comic.

And then comes the battle in Tull. And something else I noticed this time through. They've already been conditioned for it by Walter, and Sylvia, their mindset has been prepped. Notice how many of them are grinning? Just before Sylvia makes the scene, there is this: 'they halted for a moment, startled, the mob face shivering into individual, bewildered faces.'

I think the operative word there is bewildered. And to understand that I have to haul in another bag of returnables and drop them on the counter. I'll take one from The Shining. After Wendy finds Jack and wakes him from the fugue state she found him in--this after he busts up the radio--he is described as bewildered. A kind of possession, maybe.

Maybe Roland could have turned and walked away from Tull at that point. But Sylvia rallies them, a second kind of possession, group-think. What gets me about the scene is Nort, both before and after, and how that relates to the story, other than Nort being a weed-eater, dies, etc. I think there's some subtext there that I'm not sure what it means, like the fire he builds after leaving, something about 'its own shape superimposed over the other, more geometrical one'. What?

Whitey Appleseed
12-22-2008, 04:49 AM
Good question, one I want to ignore, cause it's a tough call. There's another like it in this section of the site, why did he kill everyone. Alice is a bit different. She was held up as a kind of shield. There's that bit about the scar on her forehead, too. Doesn't the gunslinger have a like-scar? Jake as well? Maybe not. With the others, he had to kill or be killed. They were kinda possessed and King uses that 'bewildered' as a kind of clue. Just before Sylvia rallies the troops after they become individuals again, after they wake up from the spell that must have been cast on them by the man in black. But Allie seemed different somehow and I don't know. Seems like he could possibly have done something different. Shrug.

droland
12-29-2008, 09:50 PM
did he have to kill the kids? i think yes. if any of you have read "dreamcatcher", i think it's a bit like all those little baby aliens. they're small but enough of them could be deadly. it's a double edged sword. either kill them or spare them and they either gang up on him or they tail him once he leaves tull and he really doesn't need to be watching his back all the time. he needs to be looking ahead to the man in black. i think that once that battle was underway he did the right thing. however, i also think that before the battle began, he should have left. and, one more thought. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

Letti
12-30-2008, 01:19 AM
1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

1. I think he could but he didn't want to. He always faced the dangers later in the saga, too. For example I remember when Susannah wanted to go around Lud but Roland refused that because of the same reason.
2. Are you sure? I don't remember anything like that... they both were women and that was the only similarity between them.

droland
12-30-2008, 04:14 AM
1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

1. I think he could but he didn't want to. He always faced the dangers later in the saga, too. For example I remember when Susannah wanted to go around Lud but Roland refused that because of the same reason.
2. Are you sure? I don't remember anything like that... they both were women and that was the only similarity between them.

you're right. it's been a while since i read this one and i know he made a passing referance to her somewhere in the book. the first time i read it, i had had no idea what it would be about and had not looked anything up whatsoever. so when i heard names thrown out like Susan and Cuthburt (i think he says the name before he tells the story of Hax, the cook) i was completely confused and so the name stuck in my head. after a while of not reading it, the place in the book where the name is mentioned got lost.

but, about the first point i believe in this pretty firmly. he didn't want to leave because of allie. if not for her, i think he would have moved on long before the shooting took place.
finally, what do you think of my theory about the children?

Letti
12-30-2008, 04:25 AM
1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

1. I think he could but he didn't want to. He always faced the dangers later in the saga, too. For example I remember when Susannah wanted to go around Lud but Roland refused that because of the same reason.
2. Are you sure? I don't remember anything like that... they both were women and that was the only similarity between them.

you're right. it's been a while since i read this one and i know he made a passing referance to her somewhere in the book. the first time i read it, i had had no idea what it would be about and had not looked anything up whatsoever. so when i heard names thrown out like Susan and Cuthburt (i think he says the name before he tells the story of Hax, the cook) i was completely confused and so the name stuck in my head. after a while of not reading it, the place in the book where the name is mentioned got lost.

but, about the first point i believe in this pretty firmly. he didn't want to leave because of allie. if not for her, i think he would have moved on long before the shooting took place.
finally, what do you think of my theory about the children?

I don't think the children could have been dangerous. They might have been able to cause some trouble but not much if they had followed him after the shooting but I think they would have run away without their parents. He shot them because he saw only one colour in his head at that moment and it was red. He was in the mood.

EdwardDean1999
02-03-2009, 03:08 PM
1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

I have to disagree (but not completely)

1. I don't buy the notion that Allie was keeping Roland in Tull. At least not because they "had begun a relationship". But I do think he felt he had to stay there. Walter had worked a horrible miracle in bringing back a dying man. Not only that but he had left a word with him "nineteen" that would unlock the mystery of life in turn driving the only sane person (Allie) insane. Roland is a knight of eld. He has a responsibility to fight the forces of CK. I suppose he was staying because he knew there was a great danger to the town. He felt he had to save it. He didn't realize that he would muddle things so much that he ended up defending himself against the whole town.

2. I don't think Allie reminds him of Susan. For starters SK takes pains to describe both specimens of flesh. Allie's skin is scarred and she has sagging breasts. Secondly, Sheb brings back the memory of Susan when he barges into Allie's bedroom; not Allie And upon this memory Roland refuses to make love to Allie. Logic follows that memories of Susan = mood killers. If Allie reminded him of Susan I doubt Roland would be in the mood on that first night.

To answer the original question. I think he had to fight. When the trap sprung and he was surrounded the first thing Roland did was shoot himself a path out of the fray. He sustained injuries in the massacre as well, so Tull did get some good licks in.

My first impressions were very different. I thought, "This monster just killed an entire town. They didn't pose a threat to him." But upon my re-read I knew that Roland was just trying hopelessly to serve the line of eld.

**I think I should deserve honorable mention for longest, incoherent posting tdt.com members awards anyone?

BillyxRansom
04-07-2009, 10:29 AM
So wait!

Brown invited Roland to tell the story, and he did, but then, I must not have been paying attention, or I'm just not getting it, but how does Roland figure out there was a trap set for him? How do WE find out? I'm pretty unclear about this, because I remember Sylvia saying "The Interloper, the Interloper!" but how are we, the readers, shown this?!?! I think it breezed right past me. It just happened so fast to me!

Letti
04-07-2009, 10:48 AM
I think he knew it from the very first moment he entered Tull and when he heard the Man in Blcvk had stayed there for awhile he got sure. Alice told him, too.

Kidd Ikarus
04-08-2009, 04:04 PM
I'm sorry if I say something out of place or context . . . I haven't read the whole thread yet . . . But I read the opening post.

I thought it was friggin awesome when Roland gunned everyone in the town . . . uh . . . down . . . yeah. I have a pretty twisted mind and by the time everything went down, it was kill or be killed. Roland was and is bad ass. Haha. :lol:

Woofer
04-08-2009, 04:52 PM
**I think I should deserve honorable mention for longest, incoherent posting tdt.com members awards anyone?

For what post? :P

There have been far longer, far less coherent posts, but... E for effort! :thumbsup:

ETA - What? Nobody on the Tull reference? I know Matt loves the song I parodied. :cry: The life a wolf is hard indeed.

obscurejude
04-08-2009, 06:31 PM
2. I don't think Allie reminds him of Susan. For starters SK takes pains to describe both specimens of flesh. Allie's skin is scarred and she has sagging breasts. Secondly, Sheb brings back the memory of Susan when he barges into Allie's bedroom; not Allie And upon this memory Roland refuses to make love to Allie. Logic follows that memories of Susan = mood killers. If Allie reminded him of Susan I doubt Roland would be in the mood on that first night.



I don't think Sheb conjured those memories in the original version. There's barely mention of Susan in the original Gunslinger and so Roland's reasons for staying seem to have little to do with her. I don't think the 18 year old SK had much of Mejis in his mind at that point, but I could be wrong.

Woofer
04-09-2009, 10:40 AM
2. I don't think Allie reminds him of Susan. For starters SK takes pains to describe both specimens of flesh. Allie's skin is scarred and she has sagging breasts. Secondly, Sheb brings back the memory of Susan when he barges into Allie's bedroom; not Allie And upon this memory Roland refuses to make love to Allie. Logic follows that memories of Susan = mood killers. If Allie reminded him of Susan I doubt Roland would be in the mood on that first night.



I don't think Sheb conjured those memories in the original version. There's barely mention of Susan in the original Gunslinger and so Roland's reasons for staying seem to have little to do with her. I don't think the 18 year old SK had much of Mejis in his mind at that point, but I could be wrong.

I don't think you are, Ryan. I actually think that the original works better without all the shoe-horned references to the later books.

I think it fits well with the ending of DT 7 and the disorientation of looping back. I believe it takes Roland a little while to come fully back into himself when he loops; thus, even powerful memories like those of the whiny girl from Mejis take a a bit to settle back into accessibility in his head.

erikeliotwrites
07-25-2009, 01:03 PM
i agree edwarddean! he was a young lad!

Myrtok
02-04-2010, 05:04 AM
he's supposed to be on the side of the white. he's supposed to be searching for the tower. he's going to have to save the beams. and he's staying in the town, knowing there's a trap. and he rapes this woman with his gun.

the bottom line is he should be better than that. he's a gunslinger. he's not a monster, or at least he shouldn't be. he's not some thug, or at least he shouldn't be. he's an instrument of the white.

I think this hits the nail on the head as far as Tull is concerned, except I think it does so by illustrating what a gunslinger IS, not what he shouldn't be.

Sure, Roland sensed a trap there, but I don't recall any forshadowing of the fact that the trap would require him to kill the whole town. I got the feeling that at that stage, Roland was basically taking things head on, sort of blindly following wherever his path to the Tower led him. If there is a mountain in his way, he goes directly over it, a desert, he goes directly through it. Same thing with a trap. He just plods straight through.

Tull, as much as any other part of the DT world, had "moved on," to the point where the people were as bad as animals with no morals, no love, no happiness in that town whatsoever. The town as a whole was like a sick and dying animal, and not even one individual in that town had a quality good enough to redeem it. When The Town turns on him, Roland kills The Town like a rabid dog.
or like a certain over the hill 70 foot tall cybernetic bear
Yes, in killing The Town, he killed a lot of individuals, and that obviously caused Roland some considerable pain down the road. I guess I got the feeling that we were being let in on the fact that gunslingers in general, and Roland especially, lived a life where they dealt with all the mud, blood, and depravity in the world, and had to live with the personal, inner demons that went with it as part of their service to the white.

And speaking of demons, didn't anyone else get the idea that Sylvia Pittson was possessed by one? The fact that SK does his best to describe her as rather unattractive, yet Roland is nearly overcome with lust for her when they meet, reminds me of the incubbus and sucubbus demons that he encounters later on. I saw what he did with his gun less as a case of "rape" and more like something along the lines of a known remedy for her condition.

lead dealer
02-04-2010, 01:27 PM
To make a modern comparison, Tull was a lot like what happened in Mogidehew, Somoliain 1990's.

Supposed to be a quick operation, in and out, no troubles.

Unexpected events happened. The situation escalated. Became open season on american solders, or in this case the last gunslinger...

Had to fight a long, bloody fight out....

Brainslinger
02-04-2010, 01:27 PM
Good post Myrtok.

I didn't find Pittson's description as unattractive myself She's a big lady, though, and that's not the physical type that the media portrays as attractive, but in the end I guess it's a question of taste. I certainly understood Roland's reaction although it did seem a bit extreme. A demon might have had something to do with that, although I think her demon was mainly the figurative sense in her own mind, not helped by the Man in Black. I think she had a kind of infectious, in the end unhealthy* charisma which added to her other, um, assets. Possibly aided with some bewitchment, in the very literal sense of the word a deposit (oo-er) left by old Walt (that sly dog).

I disagree that none of the town members had any redeeming qualities though. Allie certainly had a sense of empathy. And then there was the little boy who chose not to be rude to the Gunslinger when he made enquiries, a small thing but there nonetheless.

They were all weak though and easily led. So maybe that amounts to the same thing in the end. What's the good of having inner goodness if you don't bring it out?

Wizard and Glass spoiler: Like the folk at Hambry I guess, at least near the end. I never really saw that echo before!

*Not in the physical sense. She certainly seemed very healthy in that way.

homer5898
04-08-2010, 06:15 PM
HELLO EVERY ONE MY NAME IS PETE58, I AM A VERY BIG STEPHEN KING FAN. MY FAVORITE BOOK IS THE FIRST DARK TOWER NOVEL: THE GUNSLINGER. I RECENTLY CREATED A 3-D RECREATION OF THE TOWN OF TULL FOR THE VIDEO GAME UNREAL TOURNAMENT 2004. UNFORTUNATELY WITH OUT THE GAME YOU CANT PLAY THE MAP BUT IF YOU WANT TO SEE A FEW PICTURES OF MY MAP OR YOU WANT TO DOWNLOAD FOR UT04 HERE IS THE SITE...
THANK YOU



http://www.mapraider.com/maps/?fileid=5053
(http://http://www.mapraider.com/maps/?fileid=5053)

Sam
04-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Please turn your caps off. Thank you.

Ageless Stranger
04-08-2010, 07:29 PM
Please turn your caps off. Thank you.

:rofl:

pathoftheturtle
04-09-2010, 12:14 PM
Link will work better w/o double http:// prefix.

We're always glad to have big SK fans to talk with: I hope that you'll be around the site doing more than just this, homer. (Hm...all lowercase in the username. Who'd've thought?)

Randall Flagg
04-09-2010, 12:30 PM
This is going to be moved shortly.

sarah
04-10-2010, 07:15 AM
hi homer5898, welcome to the site. Your thread is being merged with our general discussion thread on Tull.

Canada
04-10-2010, 07:24 PM
Did anyone else notice this? Remember that baby that was mentioned, I believe it was the daughter of the stable-manager? The one that was "drooling happily in the dirt"?

...

Well, what happened to it? From what I gather from the text, the baby is never mentioned again (after the battle), and it's certainly not one of the townsfolk attacking Roland.....So did Roland really leave a little baby behind to starve to death in a newly-depopulated desert town? Or is there something in the text even implying anything to the contrary? Because I don't know if I can handle the thought of Roland killing an innocent baby.

On the other hand, the book never really mentioned the babe's mother, so I guess she might've been napping when Roland was laying waste to the town, leaving a mother for the child. Then again, the mother might have been one of the stable-manager's daughters...

Sorry if this was brought up earlier in this thread, but I didn't see any mention of it, and this has always bugged me about Gunslinger.

Jean
04-11-2010, 01:05 AM
Because I don't know if I can handle the thought of Roland killing an innocent baby.
I am afraid that is the very point of the whole story. Is there anything he can do to atone for this in the eyes of God, Gan, and you; or is any kind of atonement possible at all.

BROWNINGS CHILDE
04-11-2010, 01:49 AM
This is just one of the reasons that I did not like Roland until about halfway through the second book. As for atonement, I don't know whether atonement is possible, but forgeting is, and that is how I learned to like Roland.

Jean
04-11-2010, 03:44 AM
forgetting, or forgiving?

alinda
04-11-2010, 07:37 AM
They are both intwined for me. I forgave him
and gladly forgot after so I could go on loving him.:P
Then he showed me a thousand reasons to keep on.

Canada
04-13-2010, 06:42 AM
Yeah, I mean Roland is still my favorite hero (anti-hero?) of all King's books and one of my favorites of all time otherwise, and his sins are what makes him so, but it's still hard every time I read Gunslinger. But that's what makes every book after that so good, especially in WOC, when I feel like he really starts to change and care about others. I do believe in atonement, and forgiveness, and I believe he can be saved, but it's still hard to think back on the dark parts.

Charyou Tree
06-05-2010, 07:33 AM
Because I don't know if I can handle the thought of Roland killing an innocent baby.
I am afraid that is the very point of the whole story. Is there anything he can do to atone for this in the eyes of God, Gan, and you; or is any kind of atonement possible at all.

Ahhh, but saving the Tower may just be atonement enough.

Jean
06-07-2010, 02:16 AM
It may - arguably - but I am sure no action is atonement enough. God (whatever He is called in the story) wants him to change; I also think Roland made very important steps in the right direction, starting straight away from page 1 of TDotT. In my eyes, ursine as they may be, he is completely redeemed by repentance and both actions and feelings described in further volumes (saving the Tower or no saving the Tower... this appears secondary) ... but -

higher authorities might think otherwise, given what happened in the end

RolandLover
06-21-2011, 02:15 PM
When I read the scene with Roland and Silvia, I never thought of rape at all. As for the the battle of Tull, even if he knew it was a setup, if he would have left early doesn't mean he wasn't going to kill in Tull. Silvia was there and she controlled the folks to kill Roland so he killed them all. I have had no qualms about it and thought he was really badass.

The Road Virus
06-21-2011, 02:55 PM
This was being discussed in another thread as well (his BA-ness and so forth). I feel like the Tull massacre is one of the best action scences in the whole series. He kills men,women, and children without remorse. It is cold but it serves the purpose of allowing him to still pursue the tower (i.e he was defending himself). Also, it's not like he took enjoyment out of committing these acts. King talks of how his hands do their own work and how Roland robotically performs his little reload trick.

Also, DT7 Since he is going to re-do/live this episode a number of times, is it not fair to think that maybe he will have the sense to get out of town before they bear down on him OR the compassion to find a way to make it out of Tull alive without laying waste to the entire city?

Son of Paul
06-29-2011, 10:38 AM
The baby was killed, I suppose. The text explains he left the town without one living soul (or something to that tune). Road Virus, the Tull massacre was a flashback, a story Roland told Brown. It happened before the loop. Though, I suppose, given the loop at the end of DT7 says Roland has his horn (which he lost waaaay before the loop begins), maybe he gets second chances with Tull as well...

The Road Virus
06-29-2011, 01:50 PM
Yeah I mean, If he has something from a battle long before his massacre in Tull, I think it is safe to assume that almost anything meaningful in his life has a chance to be altered in coming loops.

mtdman
05-28-2012, 08:10 PM
A couple of thoughts.

I think that Tull was there to show us (1) what the gunslinger was capable of, killing the whole town. And (2) what the man in black was capable of, creating that trap for Roland but not attacking Roland himself. Also, someone else mentioned it, Roland is pretty much single minded and locked in on MiB. He hung around town in order to spring the trap, trying to figure out what was going on. He was going to stay no matter what. I think we're not supposed to like Roland here, I certainly didn't after reading the book. But he does become another person really once he draws the katet and forms his group. In killing Tull, he really is a son of a bitch, and we're supposed to see what he has become in his obsessive pursuit of the MiB.

As far as the 'rape' thing with Sylvia, I never saw it like that. IMO he did that to force out the demon that was in her, that she claimed MiB left her. Notice he did it with the guns, made from Excalibur's metal. That was to kill the demon. And I'm not really sure there wasn't a child or demon in her. He says the 'no child, no prince, no angle, no demon' thing after, but I always took that as he killed whatever was in her that MiB left her. She's certainly possessed or glamoured somehow. I don't think he was raping her, he was chasing out the demon, that was his intent.

Also, later on as he's hypnotizing Jake, Roland reflects on all the bad stuff that he's done. All the murder, and rapes, and evil done in the name of the white. That's all part of what he did in Tull. Whether it's wrong or right, that's the place he was in mentally in Tull, and that's what he used to justify his actions to himself.

Just my 2 cents.

Random321321
05-30-2012, 02:55 PM
Regardless of the technical explanation, there's more than a tinge of sexual violence there, no?

Letti
05-30-2012, 11:07 PM
Well, the Gunslinger is not a good book for young children.

Hbgunslinger
06-02-2012, 02:41 AM
I always felt that Tull was going to end in bloodshed the second he walked in. I think even if he had just rode through they would have come after him, so his staying had little bearing on the outcome.
Also in regards to what he did with Pittston if I remember correctly after he's done she says something along the lines of how she's empty now (i could be wrong it's been a while) That made me think of it as his using the guns as a way to force/kill whatever the MIB put in her. How he did it might have been questionable, but the guns touching her where it was put in maybe was the way to kill it.

mtdman
06-03-2012, 02:10 PM
Regardless of the technical explanation, there's more than a tinge of sexual violence there, no?

I never thought of it as 'sexual' violence. I just saw it as the way Roland had to remove the demon Marten left in her.

Random321321
06-04-2012, 05:38 AM
Regardless of the technical explanation, there's more than a tinge of sexual violence there, no?

I never thought of it as 'sexual' violence. I just saw it as the way Roland had to remove the demon Marten left in her.

I.e. the technical explanation. You don't find anything 'sexual' about shoving a giant gun up a woman's vagina? Really?

mtdman
06-04-2012, 04:11 PM
Regardless of the technical explanation, there's more than a tinge of sexual violence there, no?

I never thought of it as 'sexual' violence. I just saw it as the way Roland had to remove the demon Marten left in her.

I.e. the technical explanation. You don't find anything 'sexual' about shoving a giant gun up a woman's vagina? Really?

No, not really. He was trying to kill the demon.

Random321321
06-09-2012, 07:45 AM
Regardless of the technical explanation, there's more than a tinge of sexual violence there, no?

I never thought of it as 'sexual' violence. I just saw it as the way Roland had to remove the demon Marten left in her.

I.e. the technical explanation. You don't find anything 'sexual' about shoving a giant gun up a woman's vagina? Really?

No, not really. He was trying to kill the demon.

<shrug>

Walkingman79
10-22-2013, 01:25 PM
Wasn't the trap pretty much set up to go off when he was leaving town? So whether he went earlier or later whenever he left it would go down.

Tull was batsh*t crazy! This was an intense point of the book and all the insight has been interesting but this is how I view Tull.Roland knew it was bad news from the moment he walked into that f'd up enchanted town but the road was long so he decided to get some grub,some drink and some lovin'... after all he knew it was going to hell from the moment he sat down at that bar and found out the man in black was there doing his parlor tricks.That town was coming at him with everything they had even if he had left on the first day because the trap had been set...he was the interloper.Why did sai King draw the scene out in the way he did?....because it's a story that needs full pages.Like it or not that scene stuck with you for awhile after you read it and it left a strong enough impression that it had a whole thread dedicated to it so I think King achieved what he was going for at 22 years old and that's to get in your head and mine.Job well done.

Merlin1958
10-22-2013, 08:22 PM
Wasn't the trap pretty much set up to go off when he was leaving town? So whether he went earlier or later whenever he left it would go down.

Tull was batsh*t crazy! This was an intense point of the book and all the insight has been interesting but this is how I view Tull.Roland knew it was bad news from the moment he walked into that f'd up enchanted town but the road was long so he decided to get some grub,some drink and some lovin'... after all he knew it was going to hell from the moment he sat down at that bar and found out the man in black was there doing his parlor tricks.That town was coming at him with everything they had even if he had left on the first day because the trap had been set...he was the interloper.Why did sai King draw the scene out in the way he did?....because it's a story that needs full pages.Like it or not that scene stuck with you for awhile after you read it and it left a strong enough impression that it had a whole thread dedicated to it so I think King achieved what he was going for at 22 years old and that's to get in your head and mine.Job well done.


Very good points!! Now, if only you weren't a "Red Sux" fan..... LOL


BTW, do you have a book collection? If so, how about a "collection thread"? Most of us start slowly and gain speed. Mine can be viewed in my "sig". Join in the fun!!!

Walkingman79
10-24-2013, 03:00 PM
I don't have a collection worth sharing. I buy soft covers and they all have rabbit ears. I did buy the hardcover of "Wind through the keyhole" but no special editions or anything. I have been checking out some of the collections and they are very cool!

jhanic
10-25-2013, 06:25 AM
You don't have to have specials to show us your collection. I'm sure we'd all LOVE to see it!

John

SDZald
09-12-2014, 11:57 AM
First let me say I agree with Eddie.

Roland "Ka"
Eddie "Kaka"

If there is anything I hate about Roland it is is ease at blaming EVERYTHING on Ka.

I go along with another character form another fine Fantasy book Lord of the Rings. When Frodo is doing is typical whining "whoeee is me" routine Gandalf says "so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

That is something I think we can all live by, we may not have control over what choices we have to face in life but we certainly have control over the choices we do make.

Roland KNEW it was a trap yet he made the choice to stay and trip the trap. For me the trap had nothing to do with being forced to kill the entire town. No the trap was the time he spent in that town.

Think about it, Roland was getting very close to the man in black. Yet Roland lingered in Tull for how long days, a week? I say had Roland done the right thing, got supplies, and pulled out of town the very same day, not only would the people of Tull still been alive but just maybe Roland catches the man in black at the way station, which would mean no need to drop Jake.

Roland is NOT a very good guy. He may just be Whites "tool" but the "ends never justify the means" and his single mindedness, putting the Tower above all else to include right and wrong makes him no better then the Crimson King. Ok go ahead start tossing the rocks I am ready :)

webstar1000
09-18-2014, 04:00 AM
First let me say I agree with Eddie.

Roland "Ka"
Eddie "Kaka"

If there is anything I hate about Roland it is is ease at blaming EVERYTHING on Ka.

I go along with another character form another fine Fantasy book Lord of the Rings. When Frodo is doing is typical whining "whoeee is me" routine Gandalf says "so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

That is something I think we can all live by, we may not have control over what choices we have to face in life but we certainly have control over the choices we do make.

Roland KNEW it was a trap yet he made the choice to stay and trip the trap. For me the trap had nothing to do with being forced to kill the entire town. No the trap was the time he spent in that town.

Think about it, Roland was getting very close to the man in black. Yet Roland lingered in Tull for how long days, a week? I say had Roland done the right thing, got supplies, and pulled out of town the very same day, not only would the people of Tull still been alive but just maybe Roland catches the man in black at the way station, which would mean no need to drop Jake.

Roland is NOT a very good guy. He may just be Whites "tool" but the "ends never justify the means" and his single mindedness, putting the Tower above all else to include right and wrong makes him no better then the Crimson King. Ok go ahead start tossing the rocks I am ready :)

Roland is and always was... the "anti-hero".... that is the point. So, my good man, I shall throw no stones at you... cause your pretty much right. haha

Ross
04-21-2015, 06:54 AM
I think Roland stayed in Tull knowing it was a trap because he had to. I think he was obligated to rid the town of whatever the man in black left for him. Its like having a rabid dog attack you and instead of putting it down you kick it and walk away. Chances are it will come back to bite you. I think it was in someway a calculated decision to stay until he knew what/who the trap was. He knew he was getting close to the Man in Black. He didnt know how close or if maybe he was actually there as part of this trap.

Also, and this might be for another thread, but I think that if/when they make the movie, the scene(s) in Tull will be a major part of it. I can already picture the action sequence of Roland creating the zig zag line of bodies as he moves from main street into the barber shop and out the back. The close up shots of him reloading his gun at insane speed. That and scene when Roland goes into the cellar at the weigh station to get the canned food and speaks to the "talking demon".

R. Stewart
01-09-2017, 10:40 AM
I had just finished "The Little Sisters of Eluria", so the incident at Tull seemed familiar - a doomed town that seemed nearly impossible to escape from.

Jon
01-28-2017, 10:19 PM
I had just finished "The Little Sisters of Eluria", so the incident at Tull seemed familiar - a doomed town that seemed nearly impossible to escape from.

You wouldn't be Rod "The Mod" Stewart?

Isamu Dyson
02-03-2017, 05:58 AM
I had just finished "The Little Sisters of Eluria", so the incident at Tull seemed familiar - a doomed town that seemed nearly impossible to escape from.

You wouldn't be Rod "The Mod" Stewart?

Jon is back!

Sai Sheb
02-03-2017, 03:00 PM
Tull was a necessary evil for Roland! He couldn't leave anything to chance... the trap was set and if he left it could have come from behind as he entered the desert with nowhere to hide... I did find it highly sexualy charged, with his sexual encounter with the bar keep (forgotten her name right now) and the preacher woman! But the demon the MiB left behind is more my interest. Would it have been a Mordred type demon or something more like the sex demon's we got to know of in the circles??? As we know Roland was obsessed with the tower and for good reason, the whole of (his) mankind depended on it...