Patrick Danville General Discussion *SPOILERS*

[John_and_Yoko]

I was just thinking about The Dark Tower again (yeah, even though it's been weeks since I finished reading it) and something just occurred to me. Call me crazy if you want, and maybe I am just grasping at straws, but tell me what you think....

One of the few things that bothered me about The Dark Tower was Patrick Danville. Not his existence in the storyline, I don't mean that, nor even the fact that the prophecy in Insomnia didn't play out exactly (or the fact that the Calvins suggested it might not be entirely accurate--which is basically a retcon).

What bothered me was how little we see such a crucial character to the story. We first see him as a very young child in Insomnia, from the point of view of others for the most part (like a minor character), until we learn of his true significance. Then we don't hear of him again until the final volume of The Dark Tower, where he does really little more than erase the Crimson King (thus fulfilling his destiny). He isn't even introduced until late in the volume, during the last leg of Roland's journey.

Now, again, my beef isn't with the idea that his existence might be a too-convenient deus ex machina, but rather with the fact that we learn so little of his story. We don't know when or how he came to be imprisoned by Dandelo, nor do we learn what happens to him (alone of all the characters) after Roland reaches the Tower. Why?

My thought is still just a preliminary thought (and rather outrageous) so I wanted others' opinions on it--but what if Patrick were effectively representing a Robert Browning figure?

Think about it--it's not until the last part of this volume that Stephen King starts taking direct inspiration from the Browning poem "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came" (the point of origin for inspiring the epic), rather than simply making use of its tone and themes. Dandelo is even referred to as being the "hoary cripple" at the beginning of the poem. And who does Roland encounter after this (and who is the last one remaining with him until he reaches the Tower--where the poem ended)? Patrick Danville.

Patrick is an artist--admittedly he draws rather than writing poetry, but the magic his art produces means that it hardly matters, as it amounts to the same thing. His art cannot be distinguished from reality. Perhaps, then, his role (other than the prophecy from Insomnia about destroying the Crimson King) is to serve as an outside, objective observer of what happens to Roland on the last leg of his journey. This would certainly explain why he has so little to do other than the obvious.

Also, his drawing of Roland, the Tower, and the Red King in Insomnia doesn't include himself, even though he's with Roland when he reaches the Tower. Perhaps because he thinks of himself primarily as an outsider? Even the fact that Patrick is mute in The Dark Tower (an odd decision--I was honestly hoping to hear him speak!) might play into this idea, since Robert Browning is dead and thus can no longer speak, write, or create in any way.

Of course, there are discrepancies (like Robert Browning wasn't mentally deficient as Patrick became), and I don't know if Stephen King had that on his mind as early as Insomnia. For that matter, I don't even know if the idea occurred to him at all, I'm just speculating. But certainly it also serves another omission I noted--namely that it mentions Robert Browning as a previous medium for the telling of the tale (before Stephen King), but we don't get to see Browning (except through his poem) as we saw Stephen King in the final volumes of The Dark Tower. If I'm right, and Patrick Danville is a substitute Browning figure, this would clear up that omission as well.

Anyway, just my musings. Any thoughts?

[mdcphoto]

My head hurts for too much thought but you do have some really interesting thoughts here.

[John_and_Yoko]

My head hurts for too much thought but you do have some really interesting thoughts here.

Sorry, I do tend to ramble when I think about things.... :blush: But I do like to think about them.

Anyway, thanks for your comment, and I hope to get more views on this postulation soon....

[Woofer]

John and Yoko, you have given me a new appreciation for Patrick Danville's role. I'd always been bothered by his appearance at so late in the story with little or no explanation as well as the deus ex machina element of it. However, I'd not thought anything about his absence in his drawing in Insomnia. I'd always considered that it was because he was able to see into Roland's world and had that vision at some point. I like your interpretation.

[John_and_Yoko]

Wow, thank you very much for posting! :)

Yeah, my mind had kind of wandered, I was just thinking about the specific references to the Browning poem and that got me thinking about how Patrick was really the only one present for that portion of King's epic--plus Patrick is never considered to be part of Roland's ka-tet even though Susannah and Oy are still with Roland when they meet Patrick (and even though Patrick is the only one with Roland when the latter reaches the Dark Tower).

And that got me to thinking along these lines, like how this "Browning" interpretation of Patrick's role might explain a lot of choices on Stephen King's part that appear odd at best, poor at worst.

And that, of course, got me thinking back to Insomnia again and realizing he'd drawn the part where Roland reaches the Tower (which hadn't happened yet) but wasn't in it himself, even though Patrick IS with Roland when he actually does make it there.

Anyway, I'm glad I've given someone new appreciation for Patrick's role, because I myself was bothered by how little we get to know such a crucial character in the saga. :D

[sarah]

I was just thinking about The Dark Tower (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1281) again (yeah, even though it's been weeks since I finished reading it)

that is why we are all here. We can't stop thinking about it either.

Great post, btw. Thank you.

Personally at first, I was bothered by everything Patrick Danville. It just all seemed too easy. It was like Stephen King put his people through hell and back, hunger and cold, fighting and dying, all to have some kid come in and just erase the CK. It just seemed like King had this kid in his pocket to be the problem of the moment solver. I didn't like it.

But now, I see that many people played their small roles to help the gunslingers on the their way. Patrick did that. He had is small part to play and that is why we were introduced to him in Insomnia. We had to at least know his name so he could fulfill his part. Just like all the other who passed through.

Was his role perfect? For me, not even close, but I'm learning to live with it.

[MonteGss]

I also appreciate your post and this thread. I, however, am very interested in hearing what obsurejude had to say on the matter. He is, afterall, the resident expert on Robert Browning's poem (in my opinion at least).

It took me about five times to actually get through Insomnia and after I did get through it, I wasn't too impressed. I like Patrick and DT7 but did think his role rather small. Hmmmm....I guess I will wait a bit before expanding my ideas.....like I said I would love to hear what jude has to say on the matter. *



*This is in no way implying that everyone else's opinions don't matter...I just know from personal correspondence that jude really digs RB and I would love to hear his thoughts. :D

[theBeamisHome]

I think I felt much the same way about Patrick as you did John and Yoko... although I didn't go anywhere near comparing him to Browning... I was bothered by the fact that we didn't get to really know his back story.. Maybe those are things left up to fanfiction.... hmmmm :orely:

[MonteGss]

Fanfiction is the devil.

[theBeamisHome]

lol... i've never written any... or read any either for that matter... i've just heard rumors of it..

[MonteGss]

DEVIL!!!

:lol:

Deal with the real thing....that's what I say. :)

[theBeamisHome]

:lol: Sai King needs to do back stories for all the awesome important not-so-minor characters

[obscurejude]

Thanks for the kind words Monte.

I will comment in detail within the next couple of days. I'm off from work and have been thinking about some of these things myself recently.

I'm not sure how much Patrick ties in directly to Browning (is there a particular stanza you had in mind J and Y?) and I think a case could be made that the hoary cripple was Walter (which was in King's mind as early as the gunslinger based on the afterwards of the first three books).

Yes, the interconnectedness of life and art are certainly significant themes for King and particularly the DT Series (although Duma Key, Rose Madder, and the Dark Half immediately come to mind as well). Is it just the thematic relation to Browning typology that you are referring to J and Y, or is it a particular part of the poem? You mentioned Dandelo, and implied that Patrick fit some kind of chronology. I'd be extremely interested if you have something specifically from the poem to discuss.

Also, and this might refer to Maerlyn a little more specifically, but I think Patrick being able to erase the CK has to do with the CK not existing in bodily form (remember he killed himself before setting out for the Tower). I have a long argument I've been working on for several weeks and I'm not ready to spill it, but it is another way to think about Patrick's unique artistic gifts that don't tie him directly to Browning.

Anyways, more later I promise. Thank you J and Y for taking an invested interest in Browning. He doesn't get a lot of focus around here and that makes me and Woofer sad.

[MonteGss]

Cool! I await your response. :)

I also think there might be something to Patrick's ability to erase the CK having to do with the CK's "suicide." I'm not sure I belive Patrick could have erased, say Roland or Suze, from existence.

[obscurejude]

Cool! I await your response. :)

I also think there might be something to Patrick's ability to erase the CK having to do with the CK's "suicide." I'm not sure I belive Patrick could have erased, say Roland or Suze, from existence.

Ahhh. Remember the eyes remained too- a literary reference to the soul.

[John_and_Yoko]

Thanks for the kind words Monte.

I will comment in detail within the next couple of days. I'm off from work and have been thinking about some of these things myself recently.

I'm not sure how much Patrick ties in directly to Browning (is there a particular stanza you had in mind J and Y?) and I think a case could be made that the hoary cripple was Walter (which was in King's mind as early as the gunslinger based on the afterwards of the first three books).

Yes, the interconnectedness of life and art are certainly significant themes for King and particularly the DT Series (although Duma Key, Rose Madder, and the Dark Half immediately come to mind as well). Is it just the thematic relation to Browning typology that you are referring to J and Y, or is it a particular part of the poem? You mentioned Dandelo, and implied that Patrick fit some kind of chronology. I'd be extremely interested if you have something specifically from the poem to discuss.

Also, and this might refer to Maerlyn a little more specifically, but I think Patrick being able to erase the CK has to do with the CK not existing in bodily form (remember he killed himself before setting out for the Tower). I have a long argument I've been working on for several weeks and I'm not ready to spill it, but it is another way to think about Patrick's unique artistic gifts that don't tie him directly to Browning.

Anyways, more later I promise. Thank you J and Y for taking an invested interest in Browning. He doesn't get a lot of focus around here and that makes me and Woofer sad.

Thank you very much for posting! I was honestly hoping someone who knew more about Browning than I did would post here and give their own thoughts.

I didn't really have any one particular stanza in mind, I was mostly referring to Part Four, Chapter VI of Volume VII, where Roland and Susannah discover the poem and read the stanzas that were specifically pointed out to them.

I myself had heard the idea of the "hoary cripple" being represented by Walter and was in fact surprised to see it referring to Dandelo in this volume. But the fact that it made mention of that (I'm not even considering the possibility that the characters are misinterpreting it--which is nevertheless a possibility) made me think of Part Four, Chapter V up until Part Five, Chapter III of Volume VII as the "Browning" part of King's epic.

And the mention of Stanzas I, II, XIII, XIV, and XVI only seemed to add to the idea that King was directly referencing Browning here. I and II mention the hoary cripple with his staff (don't remember Walter having a staff or anything like it--besides, I don't recall Walter actually lying about anything, as Dandelo did), XIII and XIV mention the horse ("Lippy," another reference to Browning), and even XVI refers to Cuthbert--that's in the past already, so it isn't inconsistent with the interpretation. I've read the poem a few times already, but don't remember anything more specific offhand, I may have to look at it again....

But mostly it was looking at the first and last stanzas that made me link Patrick Danville to Robert Browning in terms of chronology. Roland first meets Patrick after Dandelo has been defeated--it is Dandelo who's kept Patrick prisoner. If Dandelo is the "hoary cripple," then that corresponds to the beginning of the poem. Likewise, Patrick leaves Roland when the latter reaches the Tower and calls out everyone's name, which naturally corresponds to the end of the poem. The Epilogue and Coda neither feature Patrick nor correspond to anything in the Browning poem. Also, Roland's second ka-tet has already been broken by the time he reaches Patrick, and only further breaks up afterward--plus Roland's done all that ka meant for him to do, so he's basically just finishing what he started, as Childe Roland is doing in the poem. And Patrick is the only one who accompanies Roland on his travels along the Beam toward the Dark Tower but isn't considered a member of his ka-tet (plus we know so little of him). Add that to his art being connected with reality and he seems so much like an outsider chronicling what's going on--and specifically doing so with the "Browning" portion of the story.

As I myself stated, that all might just be coincidence and I may be trying too hard to fit the two together, but that's why I'm glad to have a Browning expert listen to my idea--even if you decided ultimately to refute it, at least you took the time to listen and explain what you thought--and perhaps you'll interpret it better, being more familiar with Browning than I am. I'm very interested in what you have to say on the matter.

I also like your idea of Patrick's ability to erase the Crimson King being related to the fact that the latter already killed himself and made himself "undead"--that hadn't even occurred to me, and I'm interested in hearing more about it when you're ready to reveal. I think that would fall into this same general topic (unless such exists elsewhere already) since the main topic is discussing and interpreting Patrick's role in the saga.

Anyway, thanks again for posting, and hope to hear more from you later! :)

[John_and_Yoko]

Just went back and looked over the Browning poem, and now I'm starting to wonder whether Stephen King took inspiration from it throughout the series, rather than just in one volume or another....

Stanzas XXII and XXIII, with the fighters, remind me very much of the Pubes and Grays in Volume III, and especially taken with the next stanza, XXIV, the engine mentioned brings Blaine the Mono to mind....

Ironic since Volume III is named after T. S. Eliot's "The Waste Land." I read that and couldn't understand much of any of it, let alone see how it might have inspired Stephen King specifically other than the title.... :blush:

This is kind of going off-topic now, I know.... If there's already a poetry thread on these forums (meaning for discussing such poems as "Sundance" Browning's and "Butch" Eliot's and their relationship to King's epic), I hope someone will direct me to it. If not, one should be started (and I'm not the one to do it). Jude...? :)

[MonteGss]

Although I dig the discussion...I personally would prefer if we focused only on Patrick here and talked about Browning's poem in the thread below. :)

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1969&highlight=robert+browning

[John_and_Yoko]

Although I dig the discussion...I personally would prefer if we focused only on Patrick here and talked about Browning's poem in the thread below. :)

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1969&highlight=robert+browning

Okay, thanks for the link (I actually asked for it in my last post)!

[The Lady of Shadows]

i had actually been hoping that there would be a novel, or a novella even, featuring patrick at some point. showing us the intervening events in his life. giving some indication what happened to him, how he developed into
who he did, etc., etc., etc.

i'm not very comfortable with people just "dropping out of the sky" (or coming up out of the basement) which is what patrick seemed to do here. unfortunately, since "the tale is told" to coin a phrase, i think our chances of finding out more about patrick's life are relatively slim at best.

[Darkthoughts]

I haven't been so frustrated over a characters untold "what happened next" since The Princess Bride (Buttercup's Baby).

For someone who's talent seemed so endless in its capabilities, I needed more of it. Did his power have limitations? Surely he could have drawn a picture of himself with a tongue? Where did he go? When did he draw the picture of Mordred standing triumphant over Llamrei, etc...

[Empath of the White]

Fanfiction is the devil.

One that I've danced with in the past><

I actually think that the prophecy was referring to Roland and Mordred. I view the spider-boy as another Horn Roland must reclaim. I'm sure I just made a few enemies there. Or it could possibly refer to Roland and Jake. Either pair would pertain to Roland being able to love again, after losing Susan, which I feel is essential for him to truly enter the Tower.

[John_and_Yoko]

I actually think that the prophecy was referring to Roland and Mordred. I view the spider-boy as another Horn Roland must reclaim. I'm sure I just made a few enemies there. Or it could possibly refer to Roland and Jake. Either pair would pertain to Roland being able to love again, after losing Susan, which I feel is essential for him to truly enter the Tower.

I'm not sure how you figure it referring to Jake, but your idea about Mordred seems interesting to me.

Certainly it would explain why he's not a straight villain but someone a little more complex--despite only existing in a single volume.

Not to mention his birthmark which would allow access to the Tower. I love thinking outside the box! :D

[Babymordred121]

I just had an interesting idea, going along with your notion that Mordred would have to be a part of the finale. If Roland wasn't one of the two men that Patrick was destined to save; in the perfect journey where Roland succeeds in regaining his compassion, he chooses to sacrifice himself in an actually satisfying battle with the Crimson King rather than to climb the tower, thus sparing the lives of his two sons, Mordred and Jake.
Just one more wonderful idea that Stephen King could have gone with, but decided wasn't as worthwhile as "EEEEEeeEEEEeeeeEEEEEE!"

[obscurejude]

J and Y, one thing that came to mind upon a recent re read is that Patrick isn't singular like Roland, Stephen King, and Robert Browning. What I mean, is that they darkle and tinct, and we've suggested this statement implies, at least in part, that said characters do not have twinners.

When Roland and Suze are in Fedic, they see the Dark Tower, painted by a Patrick on another level of the tower.

Its just something to think about...

[John_and_Yoko]

J and Y, one thing that came to mind upon a recent re read is that Patrick isn't singular like Roland, Stephen King, and Robert Browning. What I mean, is that they darkle and tinct, and we've suggested this statement implies, at least in part, that said characters do not have twinners.

When Roland and Suze are in Fedic, they see the Dark Tower, painted by a Patrick on another level of the tower.

Its just something to think about...

Actually, since I don't actually remember what you're talking about, I wonder if you might go into greater detail. That's an idea that I find interesting if it's true....

[obscurejude]

J and Y, one thing that came to mind upon a recent re read is that Patrick isn't singular like Roland, Stephen King, and Robert Browning. What I mean, is that they darkle and tinct, and we've suggested this statement implies, at least in part, that said characters do not have twinners.

When Roland and Suze are in Fedic, they see the Dark Tower, painted by a Patrick on another level of the tower.

Its just something to think about...

Actually, since I don't actually remember what you're talking about, I wonder if you might go into greater detail. That's an idea that I find interesting if it's true....

Remember when Roland and Susannah are in that office in Fedic in DT 7 before heading under Castle Discordia? They see a painting of the Dark Tower that captivates them, particularly Roland. You know, maybe it was a photograph, but that seems to contradict what Roland says later on...

J and Y, its late here. I promise to get the quote I'm thinking about tomorrow. Roland thinks about Patrick painting the tower and I marked it because I was thinking about your thread. It seemed to strongly imply their were multiple Patricks, but I could be wrong. I apologize for the vague post.

[John_and_Yoko]

Remember when Roland and Susannah are in that office in Fedic in DT 7 before heading under Castle Discordia? They see a painting of the Dark Tower that captivates them, particularly Roland. You know, maybe it was a photograph, but that seems to contradict what Roland says later on...

J and Y, its late here. I promise to get the quote I'm thinking about tomorrow. Roland thinks about Patrick painting the tower and I marked it because I was thinking about your thread. It seemed to strongly imply their were multiple Patricks, but I could be wrong. I apologize for the vague post.

I understand perfectly (it's not exactly early here either), and I certainly don't have the book out to look for the quote at the moment. To be honest, I'm surprised you responded so quickly!

Unfortunately I don't remember that part (which is odd since I remember so much from The Dark Tower series, and I finished that volume in May), but if you haven't found the quote you mean by the time I get on tomorrow, I can certainly try to look it up for myself. There's no need to feel obligated on my part--I was just curious.

And I certainly was interested in your idea--you're obviously a more serious scholar of the literature than I am. :blush:

[Letti]

When Susannah realised that Patrick could do anything with an ordinary pen and some paper I was sure like hell that she would ask him to draw her legs so she could walk again.
Was I the only one to think that?
Anyway... why did she ask it? It wasn't important for her anymore? I can't imagine it didn't come to her mind when it was my very first thought.

[The King of Kings]

She was probably just overwhelmed with the idea of being back with Eddy and Jake and didn't even think about it.

[Kes]

I thought that too. I also thought at the end why Roland didn't ask him to draw back his missing hand...Or even draw Oy back alive...

But perhaps there was some internal understanding of Ka or "fate" that stopped them?

Of course I chalked it up to "no time".

[Darkthoughts]

Personally, I didn't understand why Patrick didn't draw himself with a tongue :unsure:

[razz]

I thought she'd ask about resurrecting Eddie and Jake.
thing is that wouldn't have been possible sicne he'd never seen them.

[Kes]

Personally, I didn't understand why Patrick didn't draw himself with a tongue :unsure:


Damn. Good point! Maybe if he ever had a mirror???

[Darkthoughts]

I was thinking that he could just draw a tongue and then eat the paper...that type of funky mojo worked for Suze's festering boil.

[Letti]

Maybe he wasn't food at healing... maybe he had his limits. It would be great to find some answers to these questions because they are quite disturbing.

About drawing Oy alive... I don't think he can bring back animals or people from death. It doesn't matter how much power he has I don't think he can.

[Kes]

It would seem that if you could take life...(though we don't know that for sure as CK wasn't exactly "dead"...)

Then couldn't you give life?

Though I agree that his talents did seem to have their limits...

[Bumbler19]

It would seem that if you could take life...

Then couldn't you give life?

Though I agree that his talents did seem to have their limits...

Roland could take life, take life very very well, but i don't think he could ever give life... unless you count giving Jake, Eddie, and Susannah another life after New York... but I think that is just pulling at strings...

I think if Patrick were to draw someone who was dead to life... I don't think it would be them... they would comeback more like a zombie or vampire or something. Or maybe like a Pet Semetary thing....

The idea of resurrection and drawing her legs back for her I think would seem awfully selfish and she understood that and therefore didn't as him. Sure she spoke fondly of having Mia's legs but she also said that she's gotten along fine without em thus far. The only real advantage at the moment to her having legs was so Roland wouldn't have to drag her, but she also had the trike bike thing, and I don't think she was at all in the mood to do Roland any favors at the moment.

Drawing her a doorway wasn't selfish because she Needed to go... She knew as well as Jake, Eddie, and Roland that Roland would be the only one entering the tower, one way or the other.

But yes, I also thought about all of this while reading it... except resurrecting eddie and jake... that didn't cross my mind at all, but resurrecting oy did. Maybe because Patrick never saw eddie or jake at all... In fact when she was sizing up Roland to try and measure the door, I thought she was measuring what her own height would be with legs and attempt to have Patrick draw them in for her.

[Letti]

It would seem that if you could take life...(though we don't know that for sure as CK wasn't exactly "dead"...)

Then couldn't you give life?

Though I agree that his talents did seem to have their limits...

Because killing is much easier than giving life (in fact giving life is impossible if someone is dead for some hours). It's horrible but true. In fact anyone can kill.. even a bee can kill a human being if they are allergic to it but giving life... that's something very different.

[Bumbler19]

Personally, I didn't understand why Patrick didn't draw himself with a tongue

Hile Jokeslinger

I LOLed at that one very well haha.

[Letti]

The idea of resurrection and drawing her legs back for her I think would seem awfully selfish and she understood that and therefore didn't as him.

Why would it have been that selfish? I am sure Patrick would have been really happy to help Susannah anyhow.

[Bumbler19]

Why would it have been that selfish? I am sure Patrick would have been really happy to help Susannah anyhow.

because asking someone with power like that to continue to fix things that they had nothing to do with is basically using them... I don't think she wanted to use him like that...

It is like... you have a friend who is much better off than you... and you both like to go out to eat a lot... once or twice a week... it is like asking them to cover the bill for you EVERY meal just because they have more money, even though you could technically afford it, or just get coffee. That, in my opinion is just not a cool thing to do.

[Mad Man]

The idea of resurrection and drawing her legs back for her I think would seem awfully selfish and she understood that and therefore didn't as him.

Why would it have been that selfish? I am sure Patrick would have been really happy to help Susannah anyhow.

She didn't think about such things at all in my opinion. She knew that she must not see the Tower and she knew that she had to get away somehow before they'd reach it.

After realizing what Patrick can do she used the escape rout as soon as possible.

[Chap]

I would have asked him to draw the Crimson King down from the balcony so the final battle wouldn't be such a anti-climax :doh:

(just putting spoiler tags there to be safe)

[Brice]

or

draw zflagg back to life so Roland could kill him properly. :rofl:

[Darkthoughts]

Personally, I didn't understand why Patrick didn't draw himself with a tongue

Hile Jokeslinger

I LOLed at that one very well haha.

:D

[Chap]

or

draw zflagg back to life so Roland could kill him properly. :rofl:

Oh definately, those are my two main (only?) gripes with the series.
you just don't build up the greatest villain ever through 6 books (and many connected) only to have him murdered by a baby spider-man who was born 10 pages ago

[Brice]

I have no gripes. I'm just very familiar with those others have.

[Kes]

Modred, period, was a disappointment for me. Perhaps my only disappointment with the series.

[John Blaze]

When Susannah realised that Patrick could do anything with an ordinary pen and some paper I was sure like hell that she would ask him to draw her legs so she could walk again.
Was I the only one to think that?
Anyway... why did she ask it? It wasn't important for her anymore? I can't imagine it didn't come to her mind when it was my very first thought.

I thought she would ask that, and for Roland's fingers back.

I actually read somewhere that SK actually wrote it where Roland got his fingers back, but that the editors told him that that would be too cheesy and deus ex machina. I myself think that it was only logical for Patrick to make them whole, but I understand the editors. It would have turned alot of people off of the ending, which was going to be controversial regardless.

[MonteGss]

When Susannah realised that Patrick could do anything with an ordinary pen and some paper I was sure like hell that she would ask him to draw her legs so she could walk again.
Was I the only one to think that?
Anyway... why did she ask it? It wasn't important for her anymore? I can't imagine it didn't come to her mind when it was my very first thought.

I thought she would ask that, and for Roland's fingers back.

I actually read somewhere that SK actually wrote it where Roland got his fingers back, but that the editors told him that that would be too cheesy and deus ex machina. I myself think that it was only logical for Patrick to make them whole, but I understand the editors. It would have turned alot of people off of the ending, which was going to be controversial regardless.

Maybe if that would have happened, Susannah would have given his gun back before she ditched and it wouldn't have ended up in a trash bin. :(

[Jean]

I think approximately the same; I know it never crossed my mind they could ask something for themselves - how could it cross theirs at that point, when the Tower was one step away, and friends had been lost, and the final confrontation with the mad dead king was imminent, and all that? They could have thought of something for themselves if they had been planning on meeting a sorcerer who draws things into life, but as it was, it was a little too sudden, and everything else was way too overwhelming.

[Wuducynn]

I think approximately the same; I know it never crossed my mind they could ask something for themselves - how could it cross theirs at that point, when the Tower was one step away, and friends had been lost, and the final confrontation with the mad dead king was imminent, and all that? They could have thought of something for themselves if they had been planning on meeting a sorcerer who draws things into life, but as it was, it was a little too sudden, and everything else was way too overwhelming.

I think this is it. They all got caught up in and focused on other things. I also feel there are things that Patrick couldn't do as evidenced by not being able to erase the Red King's eyes. Not that he couldn't draw her new legs or himself a new tongue though. Who knows maybe he did draw himself a new tongue after he left Can' Ka No-Rey?

[Letti]

I think approximately the same; I know it never crossed my mind they could ask something for themselves - how could it cross theirs at that point, when the Tower was one step away, and friends had been lost, and the final confrontation with the mad dead king was imminent, and all that? They could have thought of something for themselves if they had been planning on meeting a sorcerer who draws things into life, but as it was, it was a little too sudden, and everything else was way too overwhelming.

I think this is it. They all got caught up in and focused on other things. I also feel there are things that Patrick couldn't do as evidenced by not being able to erase the Red King's eyes. Not that he couldn't draw her new legs or himself a new tongue though. Who knows maybe he did draw himself a new tongue after he left Can' Ka No-Rey?

I feel you are right. I didn't understand it but now I think I do.

[Kes]

When Susannah realised that Patrick could do anything with an ordinary pen and some paper I was sure like hell that she would ask him to draw her legs so she could walk again.
Was I the only one to think that?
Anyway... why did she ask it? It wasn't important for her anymore? I can't imagine it didn't come to her mind when it was my very first thought.

I thought she would ask that, and for Roland's fingers back.

I actually read somewhere that SK actually wrote it where Roland got his fingers back, but that the editors told him that that would be too cheesy and deus ex machina. I myself think that it was only logical for Patrick to make them whole, but I understand the editors. It would have turned alot of people off of the ending, which was going to be controversial regardless.

Just like King. Decides not to give Roland his fingers back and instead takes the rest of them off by pulling the Rose.

[John Blaze]

I think approximately the same; I know it never crossed my mind they could ask something for themselves - how could it cross theirs at that point, when the Tower was one step away, and friends had been lost, and the final confrontation with the mad dead king was imminent, and all that? They could have thought of something for themselves if they had been planning on meeting a sorcerer who draws things into life, but as it was, it was a little too sudden, and everything else was way too overwhelming.

How is removing the face cancer not asking something for herself? And the door? She asked for an exit. Both of those things were selfish, in my eyes.

[Letti]

I think approximately the same; I know it never crossed my mind they could ask something for themselves - how could it cross theirs at that point, when the Tower was one step away, and friends had been lost, and the final confrontation with the mad dead king was imminent, and all that? They could have thought of something for themselves if they had been planning on meeting a sorcerer who draws things into life, but as it was, it was a little too sudden, and everything else was way too overwhelming.

How is removing the face cancer not asking something for herself? And the door? She asked for an exit. Both of those things were selfish, in my eyes.

Yes but they both were really necessary. Her legs weren't. Strange but sounds true to me.

[Jean]

I have to re-read the tumor part; as far as I remember now, it was very much the spur-of-the-moment thing, done mostly to keep Patrick entertained, and, while she was at it, to test what he really can do - without which discovery no further victory over the Red King would be possible - and the door was ultimate, final decision, beyond compare with such entities as legs or fingers.

[Wuducynn]

When Susannah realised that Patrick could do anything with an ordinary pen and some paper I was sure like hell that she would ask him to draw her legs so she could walk again.
Was I the only one to think that?
Anyway... why did she ask it? It wasn't important for her anymore? I can't imagine it didn't come to her mind when it was my very first thought.

I thought she would ask that, and for Roland's fingers back.

I actually read somewhere that SK actually wrote it where Roland got his fingers back, but that the editors told him that that would be too cheesy and deus ex machina. I myself think that it was only logical for Patrick to make them whole, but I understand the editors. It would have turned alot of people off of the ending, which was going to be controversial regardless.

Just like King. Decides not to give Roland his fingers back and instead takes the rest of them off by pulling the Rose.

Just letting you know Kes, spoiler tags aren't needed in the Dark Tower forum because if you're in here the expectation is you've read the series.

[Brainslinger]

I have to re-read the tumor part; as far as I remember now, it was very much the spur-of-the-moment thing, done mostly to keep Patrick entertained, and, while she was at it, to test what he really can do - without which discovery no further victory over the Red King would be possible - and the door was ultimate, final decision, beyond compare with such entities as legs or fingers.

Actually, I think she told him to erase the mark because she didn't like to see her face in the picture like that. It was only when he rubbed it out that they found out it it would remove her mark for real. He did draw the buffalo closer before then, but they didn't notice it at the time. They clocked the fact the buffaloes were closer but didn't put the two together, assuming they're original perception of distance was wrong.

As for drawing parts of body back, I'm not convinced Patrick can do that. In all the times Patrick alters stuff, it's usually to capture what's there and remove something or move it about. When Patrick drew the buffaloes closer, they were moved closer. A new herd didn't appear. In the case of CK and Suze, Patrick captured them on paper (quite literally) and removed something (pretty much everything as far as CK was concerned.) The only possible exception is Susannah's Unfound door, but how do we know that wasn't the door from the cave?

Of course, the question still remains, why did Susannah not ask Patrick? They could have tried after all. I'm not sure it even occurred to her to be honest. I think by this time in life her lack of legs were almost part of her identity she was so used to her situation. Even if she had thought of it, I'm not convinced she would have asked, for reasons others have given. I think she would have found it inappropriate. (Not that I agree.)

[LadyHitchhiker]

Hell, I woulda asked!!! I would think the chafing from the leather straps and being carried around would've left awful painful blisters that eventually would probably end up getting infected. Then they would have find a door to get more drugs to eradicate the infection.

[flaggwalkstheline]

When patrick erased her cancerous sore thingy, why didnt he draw her some legs????

[jayson]

I think somebody asked that once before and the general consensus was that if it was in his power to do so (and it well might have been) it would have been up to Susannah to ask for them and she didn't.

[sarah]

yes I agree. She could have asked but didn't.

I'll see if I can find that question and get you some more answers, flaggwalkstheline.


EDIT:

here's the link. (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=7089) I'll merge this thread after you have a chance to see the link. :)

[flaggwalkstheline]

ok that answered it my thread can get erased or merged or whatever, thanx

[Woofer]

For that matter, why didn't Patrick just draw for himself a door back to home earth long, long ago?

[flaggwalkstheline]

all of this could be answered if only sai king would be kind enough to tell us the story of what happened to patrick danville that eventually led him to be taken by dandello sometime after insomnia:orely:

[Letti]

For that matter, why didn't Patrick just draw for himself a door back to home earth long, long ago?

It didn't come to his mind. ;)

[Brainslinger]

For that matter, why didn't Patrick just draw for himself a door back to home earth long, long ago?

It didn't come to his mind. ;)

That, and he didn't know he had the power. It was Susannah and Roland who determined that. Even when he used the power, I'm not sure he really knew things had changed. There was a bit where it states something along the line that in his mind it was always that way afterwards.

Also, to draw the door I think he had to draw the right door. As I said earlier, I'm not sure he actually creates new things, he just captures what is there already.

[Letti]

For that matter, why didn't Patrick just draw for himself a door back to home earth long, long ago?

It didn't come to his mind. ;)

That, and he didn't know he had the power. It was Susannah and Roland who determined that. Even when he used the power, I'm not sure he really knew things had changed. There was a bit where it states something along the line that in his mind it was always that way afterwards.

Also, to draw the door I think he had to draw the right door. As I said earlier, I'm not sure he actually creates new things, he just captures what is there already.

You can be right. And we mustn't forget that it's always much easier to destroy things than to create them. Patrick's power seems to be big but I guess it has very serious limits.

[soylentjillian]

all of this could be answered if only sai king would be kind enough to tell us the story of what happened to patrick danville that eventually led him to be taken by dandello sometime after insomnia:orely:

Hopefully he will. He managed to throw a short story about Dinky Earnshaw in his last anthology.

Susannah is a character that I loved in all books but this one. I feel that she should have stayed with Roland and it pissed me off that she abandoned him for the doppelgangers of Eddie and Jake. She was so selfish in asking for an out; she had made it that far.

My theory as for not drawing legs or tongues or fingers--I think he can only erase or edit, not add on to. If anyone is an anime nerd and watches Full Metal Alchemist, they have something called the equivalent exchange for alchemy-you can't make something from nothing but of course the philosopher's stone lets you do that, but steals lives from the other version of Earth. Therefore, he could probably banish Susannah's tumor, but he couldn't materialize human bits.

(Unless he did that at some point and I forgot)

[Woofer]

Well, he drew the door for Susannah to go through. Creation or depiction of that which was already in that spot?

[Tik]

Simply put, Patrick Danville cant create anything. His power is one of moving. Everything he achieves is done by movement (for example, the buffaloe are moved closer when Patrick draws them).

Even when he erases things, he's only moving them into todash space. Roland muses that the Crimson King eyes will remain forever on the balcony whereas his body will eternally wander "the space between the worlds."

The novel also makes it clear that Patrick must draw the subject perfectly. He cant draw Rolands fingers or Susannahs legs back onto their bodies because he doesn't know what they look like. And even if he could find out how they looked like, his power is movement and the lost body parts wont be in such good shape by that point.....you dont want to reattach decomposed legs to your body at the best of times.

As for the Unfound Door.....well, its the one from the cave. After Susannah describes perfectly what it looked like (even the symbols for unfound), Patrick draws it and it appears:

"And standing not ten feet from that fire, behind the electric cart, was a door Roland had last encountered in Calla Bryn Sturgis, in the Cave of the Voices."

[Letti]

good logic Tik
Now I have peace with Patrick's abilities.

[rwr]

I've been puzzled by something for a long time. After Susannah and Roland defeat Dandelo, they find Patrick Danville in a cell in the basement.

In fact Roland's first works to him are: "No offense, Patrick. Is thee Patrick? Is thee Patrick Danville?"

I know that Patrick Danville appears in the novel 'Insomnia', but when prior to this instance is Patrick ever mentioned or discussed with Roland? Why would he suspect or recognize the man in the cell as Patrick? I don't recall any prior references to Patrick in the Dark Tower or any of the preceeding Dark Tower books.

Help!:

[John_and_Yoko]

I've been puzzled by something for a long time. After Susannah and Roland defeat Dandelo, they find Patrick Danville in a cell in the basement.

In fact Roland's first works to him are: "No offense, Patrick. Is thee Patrick? Is thee Patrick Danville?"

I know that Patrick Danville appears in the novel 'Insomnia', but when prior to this instance is Patrick ever mentioned or discussed with Roland? Why would he suspect or recognize the man in the cell as Patrick? I don't recall any prior references to Patrick in the Dark Tower or any of the preceeding Dark Tower books.

Help!:

When Roland is still in 1999, after Stephen King's life has been saved, the Calvins mention the book Insomnia to him and that's where he learns of Patrick Danville.

[flaggwalkstheline]

his story starts in insomnia and picks up again years later in dt7
I hope sai king writes a book about his journey to endworld and his adventures growing up b4 beingkidnapped and tortured by dandello

[sandcracker21]

there is something that has been driving me nuts, and hopefully someone here can help me out.

SPOILER ALERT!
at the end of insomnia the 'little bald doctors' tell Ralf that the reason patrick danville is so important in that he will save two peoples lives shortly before he dies at age of 18....

if i remember, he saves rollands life in book 7 by killing the crimson king...but who is the second? and he DOESNT die in book 7, he leaves rolland to his fate?


so is there a different King book in which danville 'saves' someone else? If so can I please be enlightened? But dont spoil it for me!

[Wuducynn]

In my opinion, the two lives Danville saved are Roland's and his own. I mean look at it, if he didn't "erase" most of the Crimson King they'd both be dead. So there you go.

[pathoftheturtle]

I agree w/Wuducynn, but an argument might also be made, I suppose, that he saved Susannah, too, before that.

Really, though, I do think that it turned out to be Roland & Patrick himself, which is dumb (kinda corny) but, basically, the best we're gonna get. So, there you go. <_<

[Wuducynn]

I don't think it's dumb and corny at all. I think it's cool how it worked out that way.

[pathoftheturtle]

"Cool," really? Not "contrived" and "clumsy" ...? :unsure: Huhn. :orely: Guess we're just not on the same page at all. ><

[Wuducynn]

Nope, but we can both agree to agree that your opinion is wrong? Can't we? :couple:

[pathoftheturtle]

:wtf: Uh... Nice grammar. :P

[Jean]

I am still not sure that is what was meant. Nobody ever says "his purpose is to save a man" while "his purpose" is something totally different (in our case, destroying a being). It is kinda universal understanding that in order to achieve that goal, "he" has to preserve his own life up to the moment of doing whatever "he" is supposed to do; nobody has to spell it out separately. It would be far too clumsy, to my ursine taste; the only possible justification of this sleight-of-hand that I see is that it is meant to ridicule the usual vagueness and ambiguity of all prophesies (like, anything may be read into any prophesy). Another problem that arises along that way, though, is that in Insomnia the prophesy did not sound either ambiguous or vague; also, I am not sure the denouement of his Opus Magnum was the right place for Mr.King to display a satirical spirit.

[pathoftheturtle]

Yar. An interesting hypothesis... but there's not a bit of truth in it. ><

[Jean]

Right. Thus, who is that second man is still a mystery to me, and I don't complain a bit. For me it reflects that very multi-dimensionality, multi-facetedness that differs the saga from all other fiction; it is only natural that some of those facets are hidden from the reader's eye. On the other hand, the reader may have a revelation some day, and additional texts appended to the existing books don't even have to play any part in this.

[pathoftheturtle]

Blah, Blah, Blah... I still say that King just plain messed up. <_<

[Jean]

say what you will, I will keep to my attitude towards the book; within my interpretation, there's no mistakes there, no mess-ups, and the personal factor is reduced to minimum minimorum.

[Sam]

Here's what I think, Patrick's story isn't done. I think there is a second person out there that he saved already or is going to save that will have a bearing on the King Universe. It's also possible that the second person was Susannah. He DID save her after all. What difference has that made? None that I know of, but the future is unknown and Susannah's tale may not be over yet. I rather think it is, and I believe she is happy and deserves that happiness, but we all know how Ka can be.

Only time (and shallow, painful stabs in the dark) will ever tell.

[jayson]

i have to agree with mike (path).

it seems fairly clear to me that when king wrote that piece in insomnia he had something else in mind for the end of the the unfinished dt series.

when, post accident, he got around to finishing the series, this was just another piece that didn't fit the continuity he had previously planned. it's hardly the most glaring contradiction in continuity, but i think it's far too convenient to say the two people he saves are roland and himself as i remain unconvinced roland's life was saved by patrick.

roland's quest may have been saved as patrick's erasing allowed roland to enter the tower without the ck, but roland seemed to not exactly be in mortal danger from the ck and his sneetch throwing. roland seemed just fine taking target practice in the can-ka-no-rey.

king even wrote in the whole thing about the belief that the insomnia prophecy was false to make room for the ending to not coincide with that prophecy.

ultimately it doesn't matter, but at this point, we should all be fairly comfortable with the fact that king changed a great deal of his thinking regarding the series when he resumed writing the last three books, even going so far as to revise the gunslinger to shoehorn in his new ideas.

whether we agree these continuity changes are good or bad is irrelevant. they exist and the patrick danville thing is among them.

[Wuducynn]

i

roland's quest may have been saved as patrick's erasing allowed roland to enter the tower without the ck, but roland seemed to not exactly be in mortal danger from the ck and his sneetch throwing. roland seemed just fine taking target practice in the can-ka-no-rey..

If Patrick wasn't there to erase the CK, Roland would have eventually had to go to the Tower because the call of the Tower was getting greater and greater. In the open he wouldn't have been able to survive the sneetches.

[sandcracker21]

i SUPPOSE it could mean Rolland and Susannah he saved, but we never 'see' him die or get word of it....so i am more inclined to believe that there is another story unwritten in which Danville is wandering in endworld and saves someone else then dies?

hmmm

[jayson]

If Patrick wasn't there to erase the CK, Roland would have eventually had to go to the Tower because the call of the Tower was getting greater and greater. In the open he wouldn't have been able to survive the sneetches.

that is one valid speculative possibility

another is that the ck did not bring an infinite supply of sneetches. if roland had enough ammo (and let's pretend he did), he could have exhausted the ck's arsernal and then what? the ck would yell "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" at him at high volume until he died of annoyance? :rolleyes:

the point is, we can all speculate any number of answers.

some of them make the insomnia prophecy "fit" if we want to accept it but there's no saying that when king wrote insomnia that this was what he intended without him actually saying so himself (well, that or robin furth deciding it was so and putting it in the back two pages of a comic issue)

[Wuducynn]

If Patrick wasn't there to erase the CK, Roland would have eventually had to go to the Tower because the call of the Tower was getting greater and greater. In the open he wouldn't have been able to survive the sneetches.

that is one valid speculative possibility

another is that the ck did not bring an infinite supply of sneetches. if roland had enough ammo (and let's pretend he did), he could have exhausted the ck's arsernal and then what? the ck would yell "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" at him at high volume until he died of annoyance? :rolleyes:

the point is, we can all speculate any number of answers.

some of them make the insomnia prophecy "fit" if we want to accept it but there's no saying that when king wrote insomnia that this was what he intended without him actually saying so himself (well, that or robin furth deciding it was so and putting it in the back two pages of a comic issue)

Of course it's speculation, this is all speculation. It's a highly likely one, and whose to say other things we don't know the CK could have done? I don't think the idea that Roland and Patrick being the ones that Patrick had to save the lives mentioned in Insomnia to be some kind of reaching at all.
Yes, we won't know until King says so.

[Darkthoughts]

I'm in agreement with Path and jayson on this one. I thought the direction he was taking in Insomnia was his plan of action for DT at that point. I wish he hadn't changed it because it had the makings of something far more intriguing than simply having Patrick locked up in a giant mantis's cellar until Roland and Suze needed a convienient(sp?!!) deus ex machina.

King has recently admitted in interviews that the last three DT books were rushed because he simply wanted to get them over and done with, and then retire (at that point.) That's why there has been talk (from him) of rewrites.

I wasn't too keen on The Gunslinger rewrite, because it seemed pointless to me. But a rewrite of SoS and DT (I like WotC just fine) would interest me.

[Sam]

We agree with Lisa.:thumbsup:

Of course, we would do more than simply agree with Lisa if she would only let us.:evil::evil:

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: Why are you referring to yourself as we? I will be forced to call you Gollum, and that's not an attractive look on anyone! :P

[Arthur Heath]

Patrick Danville sucks and should have been left out of the series all together. Him erasing the CK was the most ridiculous ending to an otherwise excellent and long awaited plot build up.

[candy]

in my humble opinion.

Suzannah was the person he saved - she had that old tumour thing on her face that he erased, and he drew the door for her to get to new eddie/jake. She had lost her mojo and i think if patrick had not been there would have mentally given up (just my opinion tho)

I dont think patrick saved roland, i agree that he was a convenient tool to allow roland to enter the tower (again) -but roland will be his own salvation (whole different thread)

i like to think like jean that the second person is one that we are not aware of, we know the DT series spans a huge arc of SK work and it may be an answer that is resolved in another of his books, althought i doubt it. Its my personal belief that we have read the last of any connection to the tower, although i would love to be proven wrong. (again a whole different thread)

[CyberGhostface]

if i remember, he saves rollands life in book 7 by killing the crimson king...but who is the second? and he DOESNT die in book 7, he leaves rolland to his fate?


so is there a different King book in which danville 'saves' someone else? If so can I please be enlightened? But dont spoil it for me!

The third part of the book (with the "Calvins") goes out of its way to explain that a lot of Insomnia is no longer canon because King's 'song' was muddled when he wrote it. This is more or less King's way of admitting that he couldn't fit the book into the DT mythology.

So Patrick didn't die saving two people no more than the Crimson King was imprisoned at the top of the Dark Tower. Really, I don't know why people are still trying to fit what Insomnia did into DT7 when King himself all but broke the fourth wall and told fans to ignore it. In retrospect, King made a big mistake making Insomnia so important initially to the series' mythos when he was pretty much making it up as he went along. I understand his views on outlines, but really, if you're writing something as expansive as the Dark Tower, you should have some sort of master plan for the ending.

Wish I could have a better answer (as Insomnia's one of my favorite SK books), but that's it. I guess we should be happy that Patrick showed up at all.

[pathoftheturtle]

Seems to me like Insomnia was just a rough draft in which he sketched out some DT ideas, then threw away into (for some reason) his Publish! box... and then Patrick in DT7 ended up being a kind of rough draft for Duma Key. :orely:

[jayson]

... and then Patrick in DT7 ended up being a kind of rough draft for Duma Key. :orely:

so perhaps duma key is just a rought draft for something...


...that ends with a bit more excitement than stuffing a porcelain figurine in a flashlight?

[flaggwalkstheline]

Seems to me like Insomnia was just a rough draft in which he sketched out some DT ideas, then threw away into (for some reason) his Publish! box... and then Patrick in DT7 ended up being a kind of rough draft for Duma Key. :orely:

I just thought edgar and patrick had variations of the same breaker abilities...

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I didn't really want to start Duma Key spoilers here.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked that book, but I must admit that jayson's point is really funny. lol, I bet that M. Night Shyamalan loves it.

[CyberGhostface]

I personally thought Duma Key was easily one of King's best books in a long time.

[Jean]

I personally thought Duma Key was easily one of King's best books in a long time.
Absolutely; I would say the best. I never could understand Jayson's frustration with that final bit - it's very much like the key events and the main idea in It; we won't discuss it further in this thread, though, ok? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Mars Eclipse]

Woo.... I know I'm kinda late but I do have an offering on how Patrick got into Dandelo's clutches. See, I was complaining about how I had no idea how he got there to a friend, and she said, 'Well, maybe the low men took him there.'
....
How did I not see that? While it's never said, the idea of the Low Men taking Patrick to Dandelo makes a lot of sense to me. :thumbsup:

[BigBob]

Question I have is, after erasing susannah's tumor and drawing into reality the door that wasn't there, why didn't Patrick draw her with full legs?
this may have been discussed but a cursory search found nothing

[pathoftheturtle]

Question I have is, after erasing susannah's tumor and drawing into reality the door that wasn't there, why didn't Patrick draw her with full legs?
this may have been discussed but a cursory search found nothingIt was discussed at least once, on a website which existed before the website which became this website. The theory I was persuaded to reluctantly accept at that time was that Patrick never actually creates anything -- he only teleports things into his setting (like the unfound door) or away into outer darkness (like Susannah's tumor.) This is speculation, but pretty consistent with all events in DT7. I'm also curious about his apparent clairvoyance, as evinced by his drawing of Roland in Insomnia. It would be cool to hear further ideas about the limits on his powers -- I'm still rather uncertain. We have some particular other members who are rather more well-versed in superpower-style rationale wrangling than I have been since I retired from Dungeon Mastering. Maybe like Sai King, Patrick is just constrained mainly by ka. That type of philosophy is more my specialty now. But it is at least safe to say, IMO, that he is for one or more of these reasons not as all-powerful as one might assume that an artist inside an artwork could be.