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Ves'Ka Gan
05-29-2008, 10:34 PM
Hi. I'm a newbie here, but I couldn't help but jump in the writers' section.

I am currently starting a story that is very unlike anything I have undertaken before. I've never been good at writing sci-fi or horror (although I love reading it) but an idea came to me I couldn't put away. In many ways it isn't sci-fi at all, but the idea of writing something so far and away from what I normally write has got me a little anxious.

I was wondering how many of you use outlines, and if so--how much detail/effort do you put into them?

I tend to write very organically, letting the story spill out however it may, but I am thinking that may not work with this one...

Frunobulax
05-29-2008, 10:37 PM
I personally only outline very broad plot points or chapter ideas. Otherwise, it's all from the mind as it comes and goes.

Steve
05-29-2008, 11:05 PM
I tend to write very much like Fruno described... except in the case of a novel I've begun, an experiment into historical metafiction about the Civil War. That ditty's mapped out like Rand-McNally.

OchrisO
05-30-2008, 02:52 AM
I usually only use outlines for academic writing, and then opnly rarely. I do however make a bunch of notes about characters, their mannerisms and appearances. I will occasionally jot down stuff about where I want the story to go, or how it will progress if something hits me, but I can't think of any time I have written a fiction work from an outline. Different things work for different people, though. Give it a shot, it may help you, if nothing else, to lessen the anxiety.

cozener
05-30-2008, 04:54 AM
I find it quite impossible to write with an outline. When I start a story I might know how it ends. I might know how a few scenes will go. But I never know enough about the story to construct a real outline. Even if I did I don't think I'd like to use an outline because I would come to see it as a constricting list of boundaries and I'd end up tossing it anyway.

obscurejude
05-30-2008, 10:28 PM
I support outlines, based on Mathew Arnold's 1853 Preface on why he chose not to include "Empedocles on Etna" in "Poems." I am a hardcore Aristotelian- action (moral impressions) are always to be defined, and all other aspects subservient. With fiction, its a little different, characters have a way of developing, but they should still be kept in check.

Arnold cites Shakespeare as the root of expression running away with itself and I tend to agree. I think King's disregard for outlines sometimes get him in trouble.

I know you all disagree with me, but read Arnold, he's worth it.

Ideal fiction writers for me*: Thomas Mann, Wendell Berry, Chuck P.- they all meticulously research, are philosophically oriented, but still have great characters and stories. There are more of course...

*None of this means that I don't like whimsical writing, but sometimes I get sick of overly done expression, like Wordsworth's egotistical sublime etc... You're reading a poem called "Tintern Abbey" but it has nothing to do with the Abbey, only Wordsworth.

Cozener, contrary to what I just wrote (at least in some regards), I really like what you do. Can I get my hands on any of your writing somehow?

Mattrick
05-31-2008, 01:02 AM
I never have ideas for what I want to do and especially no solid outline. All character notes, story ideas, character traits etc are all mentally stored away. I write no notes on paper.

Outlines make stories feel closed and constricted. If I already know the ending and major plot points...what fun is it to write? Writing for me is an adventure, over half the fun isn't know what will be around the next corner. Often enough I just write scene to scene without thinking much in the future. For my novel I had a projected ending I had all planned out, which was heavily moderated, overhauled and, as it turns out, happened in the middle of the novel. My entire "second" plotline is completely out of left field, wasn't preplanned or even thought of and I think it's some of my best, and most true to my character, than anything I had written previously.

The good thing about not having an outline is rewriting whole scenes or even chapters; changing them, reforming them, re-envisioning them is no problem. You just make the changes and if needed, adjust the rest to match up.

Frunobulax
05-31-2008, 11:58 PM
Yeah, to expand on my earlier post, outlines just seem to hold me back, confine me, and instead end up reaming my brain.

obscurejude
06-01-2008, 05:59 AM
I know you all disagree with me, but read Arnold, he's worth it.

Ves'Ka Gan
06-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Wow, thanks for all the input!

I haven't decided if I need one or not, maybe I just need to start writing down all the scenes that play out in my head while I am away from my laptop or pen & paper...

This is also my first try at 'writing with the door closed" as King puts it. I have a feeling it will be very freeing, but I'm a little nervous about staying motivated without input! My boyfriend has been great though, every time I tell him he can read a little here or there he refuses, and tells me to "keep the door closed".[:)]

Mattrick
06-01-2008, 02:55 PM
The hardest part of writing with no outline is having the end match up to the beginning. As you write your ideas may change, your characters may change right under your hands. It's quite a great feeling. Right now I'm reworking the beginning of my book because my goals drastically changed. Now I have to make it make sense with the rest of it.

rradicob
06-04-2008, 10:32 AM
my (what I call) "main story" that I've have simmering on the back burner for 10 years now, I went through and wrote about 20 pages of an outline and certain early scenes of the (what at least in my head is) "trilogy". The only reason I did this is because I have been working on the story for so long that when I bring it to the front burner again to see what I have, I sometimes find that there are certain things that don't work or make sense anymore. So sometimes an entire character or element may be added in or taken out. I've probably broken a million "rules" of writing over the last 10 years, but I'm going to get around to finally writing it once I finish the "short novella" i'm working on now, and another that I have to go back and change some things in.
Then I know I can proceed with my most darling of darlings.
steering back to the point....
an outline is a good thing if you need to remember ideas. if not, take notes. whether they be mental or on paper. but i've found my favorite is mental, and if i forget something, then it wasn't a good idea anyway. or i may remember it in a muddled form.
i tend to refer to it as a "as it was meant to be" way of doing things.

another idea, since it seems you've read On Writing, is that if you're writing something outside of what you "know" or usually read, go and find a book that is similar. if a book is too hard to find, watch a movie with captions and pay attention to dialogue. people speak weird under stress and strain.

Ves'Ka Gan
06-04-2008, 11:20 AM
Actually, the one peice of advice my boyfriend gave me was to watch Silence of the Lambs and really take notice of the way Hannibal and Clarice communicate. Niether of my characters are anything LIKE them, but the odd relationship development almost fits...

I think my challenge is that it is a very simple story about greif and love and human emotion, but the catalyst for this is something born of Sci-Fi, so I am trying to find some balance, remembering that the sci-fi element is important without getting caught up in pages and pages of explaining it away. I think I'm doing okay with it, some days I'll get five pages done, others, two or three sentences, but it's steady.

Wanderin' Commala
06-04-2008, 11:24 AM
Perhaps you should write an outline, go to a movie on mescaline, and then lose the outline while riding your motorcycle home in the rain.... Let it all just blow away in the wind and see where the gale carries your story....

Best of luck to you in your writings. Long tales and pleasant endings.

Mattrick
06-06-2008, 05:39 PM
I think my challenge is that it is a very simple story about greif and love and human emotion, but the catalyst for this is something born of Sci-Fi, so I am trying to find some balance, remembering that the sci-fi element is important without getting caught up in pages and pages of explaining it away. I think I'm doing okay with it, some days I'll get five pages done, others, two or three sentences, but it's steady.

It's hard to find that fine line, when you try and blend human drama with something 'out there'. This is a quality I love about King's writing, that he can create such real characters experience such unreal events and it all comes together nicely. I find it can be easy if you focus on your character(s) and write the plot as it suits them. Plot/events can always be editted/removed/added later but I think it's best to get all the character moments the first go around.

Writing a 'zombie' book that revolves around the decrepid souls of drunks and junkies provided a strong challenge for me.


another idea, since it seems you've read On Writing, is that if you're writing something outside of what you "know" or usually read, go and find a book that is similar. if a book is too hard to find, watch a movie with captions and pay attention to dialogue. people speak weird under stress and strain.

I'm in a tough spot, seeing as I understand drugs and addictions well but that's only part of the story. I've also got to think about how a government would handle such an outbreak while developing a character riddled with pain of a family he no longer sees and a mid-life crisis. Not knowing what it's like to be married or have kids or lose either one made this process an exceptional challenge. I think I managed well, though.

Ves'Ka Gan
06-06-2008, 07:59 PM
I'm in a tough spot, seeing as I understand drugs and addictions well but that's only part of the story. I've also got to think about how a government would handle such an outbreak while developing a character riddled with pain of a family he no longer sees and a mid-life crisis. Not knowing what it's like to be married or have kids or lose either one made this process an exceptional challenge. I think I managed well, though.

I always find that to be the most challenging--but also the most rewarding part of the writing process. Really trying to get inside what these people are feeling and the sort of experiences they have.

Of course, I sort of feel like my characters are "real people" during the time I am writing...I don't know if you feel that way, but I have found that most times, my characters have a way of letting me know how they feel...it just takes alot of close listening and "getting to know them".

Of course I've heard another word for that being called "schizophrenic"...:orely:

Mattrick
06-06-2008, 09:24 PM
I'm in a tough spot, seeing as I understand drugs and addictions well but that's only part of the story. I've also got to think about how a government would handle such an outbreak while developing a character riddled with pain of a family he no longer sees and a mid-life crisis. Not knowing what it's like to be married or have kids or lose either one made this process an exceptional challenge. I think I managed well, though.

I always find that to be the most challenging--but also the most rewarding part of the writing process. Really trying to get inside what these people are feeling and the sort of experiences they have.

Of course, I sort of feel like my characters are "real people" during the time I am writing...I don't know if you feel that way, but I have found that most times, my characters have a way of letting me know how they feel...it just takes alot of close listening and "getting to know them".

Of course I've heard another word for that being called "schizophrenic"...:orely:

lol, schizo.

I'd say all my characters developed nicely. Except for one, his role wasn't to develop at all. He's more of a catalyst.

PedroPáramo
06-17-2008, 11:01 AM
When I'm writting a novel my outline is a little description of important things that happens on the chapter(like the one I'm using for my novel rigght now).
I think they help 'cause you have an idea of what you want to write, that doesn't mean that you will follow it as a path. You must not follow the outline, it's just a guide after all. Leave your characters act and do what they want, don't make them things they'll never do.
By the other hand, on short stories or tales, the outline is about everyparagraph like "on this paragraph Mike walks around the house thinking about his girl. On this one he sees a bird flying, etc etc", including dialogues scenes like "Mike and Carol talkes about the weather: it's cloudy, Mike doesn't like cloudy weather, his reasons are...bababa" jeje xD