Greta Shaw

[wildfire1290]

What was her importance in Jakes life. I know she pretty much acted as Jakes parents but was she really that important in the series?

[ladysai]

Greta Shaw was a HUGE influence in Jake's life.
She was the only adult Jake was close to. They shared secrets, and memories.
I've often wondered if Greta wasn't a bit player for the White, specifically placed in Jake's life for his nurturing and protection in the years before his time to meet Roland.

[The Lady of Shadows]

considering the parents he had, would jake have been able to be an instrument of the white without greta's involvement? it's true she maintained her distance in most ways, but she showed him love, compassion, and nurturing. i think she gave him the basic tools he needed to become a gunslinger. in many ways, she was his mother like roland was his father.

[Letti]

I must agree with the others. She was damn important.
She showed Jake that there are people who care about each other there are people who can think of others and not just of themselves and she showed Jake that love can be unconditional.

[mia/susannah]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Greta Shaw was a HUGE influence in Jake's life.
She was the only adult Jake was close to. They shared secrets, and memories.
I've often wondered if Greta wasn't a bit player for the White, specifically placed in Jake's life for his nurturing and protection in the years before his time to meet Roland. ladysai


considering the parents he had, would jake have been able to be an instrument of the white without greta's involvement? it's true she maintained her distance in most ways, but she showed him love, compassion, and nurturing. i think she gave him the basic tools he needed to become a gunslinger. in many ways, she was his mother like roland was his father
__________________ turtlesong


must agree with the others. She was damn important.
She showed Jake that there are people who care about each other there are people who can think of others and not just of themselves and she showed Jake that love can be unconditional letti

Well said by all three of you. Greta Shaw was very important to the series. She helped prepare Jake for his life with Roland

[wildfire1290]

considering the parents he had, would jake have been able to be an instrument of the white without greta's involvement? it's true she maintained her distance in most ways, but she showed him love, compassion, and nurturing. i think she gave him the basic tools he needed to become a gunslinger. in many ways, she was his mother like roland was his father.

I think I like Turtlesong's explanation the best. Never really thought of it that way. I kinda just saw her (in the beginning) as the only person that loved Jake which made his decision easier to leave and try to open the door that would lead his to Mid-World once more.

[obscurejude]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.

[ladysai]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.
Fuck Greta?
:o


How did Greta confuse Jake? She was the housekeeper...how confusing was that?
She always cut the crusts off the bread, she always brought a snack after school, she always looked at his A papers and put them away.
Seems to me like she was pretty dependable and not too confusing at all.

[wildfire1290]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.

How did she confuse Jake?

[Jean]

there is some grain of truth in what obscure says, but I don't think I share his opinion fully. She was very far from playing anything close to mother-part in Jake's life, but, confusing him with false expectations or not (I got to think of that further), she at least provided some sound foundation that prevented the picture of the world in Jake's mind from slipping into utter chaos. She was common sense incarnate, and a kid does need it, especially when so lonely. He keeps returning to those sandwiches with crust cut off; it's not, of course, a sign of anything "motherly", but I understand that it was one of the very few things in his early life which showed him that caring for other people and taking their needs in consideration is a norm. That was, I think, her part in his life: norm, and common sense.

[The Lady of Shadows]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.

fuck greta? :(
she was a weak person? :unsure:
she made things worse by confusing jake? :unsure:

i agree that he wanted to get closer to her, he even said as much. but, she was always there for him. she watched movies with him, she praised him, she nurtured him (as much as she was able given that was the housekeeper and not the nanny or the babysitter), and she talked to him straight and without all the confusing shit. in fact, i would say that of all the grownups that jake knew, she was the only one exempt from his famous "i don't like people, they fuck me up" statement.

i would like to hear more on your views about how she confused jake, though. and about how you think she was a weak person. i think those are interesting thoughts and are worth exploring. can you maybe elaborate on those points a little bit?

[obscurejude]

That's my point. He didn't latch on to Roland because she prepared him in some "motherly way." Jake recognized Roland as authentic: what you see is what you get.

Remember the mind trap scene. Ms. Shaw felt obligated to stay while he was having nightmares, she should've just left. What that does to a kid is make him secure, only to have him robbed of it the next time he needs it (when she doesn't feel obligated).

Again, fuck her. I don't know why all you like her so much. :shrugs:

[obscurejude]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.

fuck greta? :(
she was a weak person? :unsure:
she made things worse by confusing jake? :unsure:

i agree that he wanted to get closer to her, he even said as much. but, she was always there for him. she watched movies with him, she praised him, she nurtured him (as much as she was able given that was the housekeeper and not the nanny or the babysitter), and she talked to him straight and without all the confusing shit. in fact, i would say that of all the grownups that jake knew, she was the only one exempt from his famous "i don't like people, they fuck me up" statement.

i would like to hear more on your views about how she confused jake, though. and about how you think she was a weak person. i think those interesting viewpoints and are worth exploring. can you maybe discuss that a little bit?

Yes, fuck Greta Shaw. I said it again. I think that's 3 x's.

She was never "there for Jake" She just confused him.

[obscurejude]

How else do you explain a kid falling in love with a gunslinger? Everyone in Jakes life was fake except Roland.

[ladysai]

That was, I think, her part in his life: norm, and common sense.

Excellent point, Jean. Greta gave Jake a sense of what a 'normal' person with common sense acts like.

[wildfire1290]

How else do you explain a kid falling in love with a gunslinger? Everyone in Jakes life was fake except Roland.

Do you say gunslinger because he is a cold blooded murder? If so it just seems semi baffling to me because what someone dose should not affect their personality and the capacity to care. Roland is still a good person and looked out for Jake even if he didn't show it all the time. I can see how Greta was there to look out for Jake and care for him, even though she was a house keeper. Her job title didn't make a difference.

[obscurejude]

Actions define a person, I don't agree with your dichotomy. Greta acted like a mother when she shouldn't have.

She provided him normality if making a child even more indelibly aware of their alienation from their parents is "normal."

I think I qualified what I said about Roland several times. "Authentic" there I said it again.

[Letti]

I don't think she behaved more than a nanny. She behaved like a typical good nanny and Jake knew it, too.

[wildfire1290]

So do you just think that no one should have looked after him when his parents were not doing that then?

[obscurejude]

I think that would have been better than the demon from the prim, Greta Shaw. Confusion isn't good for kids, in my opinion. Their innocence, exist in part, due to their naivete of the existential reality of the world: chaos.

Roland is exactly who he says he is, as evidenced by his actions. That's why Jake loved him instantly.

[Letti]

But where did she behave more than a nanny? Should she have put poison on the bread or what? She was such a typical nanny I think... no more no less.

[obscurejude]

But where did she behave more than a nanny? Should she have put poison on the bread or what? She was such a typical nanny I think... no more no less.

Then why are we even talking about it? A regular nanny is pretty boring.

I guess I hate nannies, if what you say is true.

[Letti]

But where did he behave more than a nanny? Should she have put poison on the bread or what? She was such a typical nanny I think... no more no less.

Then why are we even talking about it? A regular nanny is pretty boring.

I guess I hate nannies, if what you say is true.

I think most of the people are regular still I like them and I am interested in them.

[obscurejude]

Well, Letti, I don't know what else to say. My words seem clear when I read them back to me and I'm sober. Plus, I had a nap and am pretty lucid.

[Jean]

Confusion isn't good for kids
it wasn't confusion. It was precisely the opposite: showing him that there are sane, safe, and sound things in the world. Her never going beyond her duties (and emphasizing it) was one of those sound things. He lived in confusion, and she offered him a bit of firm ground in the middle of that swamp he was living in. She was authentic, and probably that's why Roland didn't strike him as a freak: he had already been prepared for authenticity. Her staying with him on that night was something a normal grown-up would do for a kid. The "further alienating him from his parents" part hardly comes in here: a kid's life isn't reducible to his relations with parents. Here it was his relations with fears (which parents had managed to build), and she gives a perfect example of how important a sane grown-up is in the life of a child.
Norm, common sense, sanity are key-words; as opposed to everything Jake had to deal with in his every-day life.

[Letti]

Well, Letti, I don't know what else to say. My words seem clear when I read them back to me and I'm sober. Plus, I had a nap and am pretty lucid.

Believe me I wouldn't like to bug you and yes, your words are clear I just don't agree. (It happens time to time and it's not bad at all.)

[obscurejude]

Well, Letti, I don't know what else to say. My words seem clear when I read them back to me and I'm sober. Plus, I had a nap and am pretty lucid.

Believe me I wouldn't like to bug you and yes, your words are clear I just don't agree. (It happens time to time and it's not bad at all.)

I know you wouldn't bug me intentionally. Its no big deal, you never bug me anyways. :rose:

[Letti]

Well, Letti, I don't know what else to say. My words seem clear when I read them back to me and I'm sober. Plus, I had a nap and am pretty lucid.

Believe me I wouldn't like to bug you and yes, your words are clear I just don't agree. (It happens time to time and it's not bad at all.)

I know you wouldn't bug me intentionally. Its no big deal, you never bug me anyways. :rose:

Thank you, I feel much better.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i think a large point has been missed here. greta shaw was not jake's nanny. she was the housekeeper and there is a huge difference. if she were the nanny she would have had a responsibility to do certain things, behave in a certain way, and maybe even provide certain affections (whether she felt them or not).

she was the housekeeper. yet she showed caring for jake. she praised his papers. she remembered how he liked his sandwiches. he was sure she would save him from the deathfly or whatever it was (remember that little tidbit??) not to mention the tyranasorbets rex.

she showed him that grownups could be stable, non-affair having, non-drug using, non-pretentious, sane people whose purpose in life was to be exactly what they appeared to be. no more, no less.

[wildfire1290]

I gotta go with Turtlesong. She did show Jake mayhap the only positive stable thing that was there for him on Earth and mayhap if Jake never met Gretta, he wouldn't be as stable as he was in Mid-World thus perhaps causing Roland and Co. many problems due to his instability.

[Matt]

This discussion is fascinating. I'm actually swinging a bit towards obscure on this one too. Personally, it think you can't be "on the fence" where kids are concerned. You either need to be there for them or don't.

Greta was always very clear that she went home at night. End of story.

So on one hand she made it clear to Jake that he was not his mother and made sure that he never thought that way about her.

and here comes the mixed message...

she cut the crusts off his sandwiches, looked at his school work and generally acted like a mom when it was convenient to her. I don't blame Greta for what she did, it was a difficult situation but I think if she wanted it professional, she should have left it professional.

I always considered Jake a gunslinger in spite of the people who were in his life prior to Dutch Hill, including Greta.

[The Lady of Shadows]

yeah. but professional people have a job to do. and then a life to get back to. i had to learn that the hard way. they can't be there 24/7 when they have their own lives.

would you have preferred that she come in, vacuum the rugs, clean the kitchen, scrub the toilets, dust the shelves, prepare the food, and ignore jake completely? would his life have been better that way?

he would have been a fucking basket case. and the tet would have failed. without jake nothing could have been accomplished. without jake the center doesn't hold. you need all the spokes on the wheel for the wheel to turn - without greta's stability, without greta showing him signs that people can care for you without fucking you up, he would've gone insane. one spoke down, the wheel is unbalanced and the tower falls.

(and damn i love this discussion! :) )

[ladysai]

This discussion is fascinating. I'm actually swinging a bit towards obscure on this one too. Personally, it think you can't be "on the fence" where kids are concerned. You either need to be there for them or don't.

Greta was always very clear that she went home at night. End of story.

So on one hand she made it clear to Jake that he was not his mother and made sure that he never thought that way about her.

and here comes the mixed message...

she cut the crusts off his sandwiches, looked at his school work and generally acted like a mom when it was convenient to her. I don't blame Greta for what she did, it was a difficult situation but I think if she wanted it professional, she should have left it professional.


A person can be a professional at what they do, and still be a compassionate human being while doing it.
Greta showed Jake compassion at times when she felt she needed to. Should she have been an automaton in order to be a professional at what she did?
I'm just not getting the 'mixed message' that you fellas are getting...


I always considered Jake a gunslinger in spite of the people who were in his life prior to Dutch Hill, including Greta.

There's no doubt that Jake achieved his gunslinger status on his own.
I'm not saying Jake wouldn't have made a gunslinger without Greta's influence or anything like that,
just that she added a little stability to his shaky foundation.

[obscurejude]

he would have been a fucking basket case. and the tet would have failed. without jake nothing could have been accomplished. without jake the center doesn't hold. you need all the spokes on the wheel for the wheel to turn - without greta's stability, without greta showing him signs that people can care for you without fucking you up, he would've gone insane. one spoke down, the wheel is unbalanced and the tower falls.

(and damn i love this discussion! :) )

Hyberbolas doesn't even begin to describe this. The tet would have failed without Greta Shaw? Is that what you're saying? Sorry turtlesong, I appreciate most of your post, but this, well, I can't think of anything that wouldn't come off derogatory. I guess we just disagree to the fullest extent possible, at least in this regard.*

Good points Matt. I was beginning to think I was the only one even leaning that way.

And for the last time, yes, it would have been better if she just left Jake alone.

*I usually really dig what you have to say and I am really glad you're here, so don't take me the wrong way. :couple:

[Letti]

I don't think that Jake would have failed without Greta. Jake was born to be a gunslinger and he knew how to stand and be true.
As I have said it many times I am sure Susannah would have appeared between Detta and Odetta without help, too however it might have been different from Susannah we know and love in the series.
But I still say Great did no harm for Jake. She just showed him that there are other worlds than these..

[wildfire1290]

I always considered Jake a gunslinger in spite of the people who were in his life prior to Dutch Hill, including Greta.

Could mayhap Gretta be Jakes Susan in the sense that we cared a lot for her, but lost her when Jake crossed the border in Dutch Hill, and Roland lost Susan...well ya, y'all know that story.

[Jean]

don't you all attach exaggerated importance to her, this or that way???

[Woofer]

I have to agree with Jean about exaggerating her importance. However, I feel her influence was both positive and negative. Positive because Jake did need a personal touch that his parents couldn't or wouldn't provide, and negative because she didn't go that extra mile to really connect. Everything was surface caring. For a child, however, surface caring can be better than no caring at all, depending on the child's personality of course. For Jake, I do think it was primarily positive.

[Matt]

This discussion is fascinating. I'm actually swinging a bit towards obscure on this one too. Personally, it think you can't be "on the fence" where kids are concerned. You either need to be there for them or don't.

Greta was always very clear that she went home at night. End of story.

So on one hand she made it clear to Jake that he was not his mother and made sure that he never thought that way about her.

and here comes the mixed message...

she cut the crusts off his sandwiches, looked at his school work and generally acted like a mom when it was convenient to her. I don't blame Greta for what she did, it was a difficult situation but I think if she wanted it professional, she should have left it professional.


A person can be a professional at what they do, and still be a compassionate human being while doing it.
Greta showed Jake compassion at times when she felt she needed to. Should she have been an automaton in order to be a professional at what she did?
I'm just not getting the 'mixed message' that you fellas are getting...


I always considered Jake a gunslinger in spite of the people who were in his life prior to Dutch Hill, including Greta.There's no doubt that Jake achieved his gunslinger status on his own.
I'm not saying Jake wouldn't have made a gunslinger without Greta's influence or anything like that,
just that she added a little stability to his shaky foundation.

I totally agree and understand what you are saying. I have no personal beef with Greta, I think she was in over her head is all.

I'm sure what happened between them happens regularly in those types of relationships. I think that is why I could never perform in a "care giver" role to someone else's kid. I would just get too close and they would become my kid. :lol:

I think Great should not have send a mixed message to Jake and the effect made him an even more confused boy than he already was. But it was a hard situation so I don't think she was a bad person or anything.

[The Lady of Shadows]

he would have been a fucking basket case. and the tet would have failed. without jake nothing could have been accomplished. without jake the center doesn't hold. you need all the spokes on the wheel for the wheel to turn - without greta's stability, without greta showing him signs that people can care for you without fucking you up, he would've gone insane. one spoke down, the wheel is unbalanced and the tower falls.

(and damn i love this discussion! :) )

Hyberbolous doesn't even begin to describe this. The tet would have failed without Greta Shaw? Is that what you're saying? Sorry turtlesong, I appreciate most of your post, but this, well, I can't think of anything that wouldn't come off derogatory. I guess we just disagree to the fullest extent possible, at least in this regard.*

Good points Matt. I was beginning to think I was the only one even leaning that way.

And for the last time, yes, it would have been better if she just left Jake alone.

*I usually really dig what you have to say and I am really glad you're here, so don't take me the wrong way. :couple:


i didn't say the tet would have failed without greta. i said the tet would have failed without jake. and that by providing him with some semblance of stability, greta helped to make jake able to withstand some of what he had to go through before he reached the tet for the final time.

seriously, i need some more from you about why you hate her so much. you're not giving me anything to hang onto. she wasn't his nanny so i'm not taking that you just hate all nannies crap seriously. :) do you really feel like she led him on? just because she was nice to him? so are all people who are nice to you just leading you on?

:couple:

[razz]

i thought Greta Shaw was the maid that took care of Lizabetrh and the other daughters in Duma Key. The lady who worked fro the Chambers was... oh crap, I'm shutting up now.

[Matt]

Nope, the maid from Duma was actually Sara Laughs. :lol:

(that woman from Bag of Bones, I can't remember he name)

[razz]

I thought Sarah laughs was the name of that house on turtleback lane.

[Matt]

I think it is, and I also think its what that woman in Bag of Bones is referred to by her friends. I may be wrong though.

[jayson]

It's Cara Laughs on Turtleback Lane

[obscurejude]

don't you all attach exaggerated importance to her, this or that way???

I couldn't agree more, and my response is twofold:

1) I didn't start the thread

2) I only jumped in because I couldn't believe how many people thought she was a superhero. I'm almost expecting to see some Greta Shaw tattoos in the DT body art thread.

Turtlesong, I'll quote some passages from DT 7 when I get some time this weekend or early next week. :)

Jayson, good to see you, as always.

[obscurejude]

do you really feel like she led him on? just because she was nice to him? so are all people who are nice to you just leading you on?

:couple:

A quick word:

Yes, she led him on, and when he responded in typical child fashion (by wanting more), she didn't give it to him.

"First comes smiles, then comes lies, next comes gunfire" -Roland

I think this is a good metaphor for what postmodernist philosopher Richard Englehardt calls "contracting for morality." We all pleasantly muddle along, but the majority of it is bullshit. Genuine benevolence is earned and is cheapened by the majority of the way people act. So, yes, most nice people lead one another on, to act contrary would be to ensure mutual self destruction. No time for further elaboration.

-----> Will name my next fish Greta, bc they tend to have short life spans. j/k

[The Lady of Shadows]

do you really feel like she led him on? just because she was nice to him? so are all people who are nice to you just leading you on?

:couple:

A quick word:

Yes, she led him on, and when he responded in typical child fashion (by wanting more), she didn't give it to him.

"First comes smiles, then comes lies, next comes gunfire" -Roland

I think this is a good metaphor for what postmodernist philosopher Richard Englehardt calls "contracting for morality." We all pleasantly muddle along, but the majority of it is bullshit. Genuine benevolence is earned and is cheapened by the majority of the way people act. So, yes, most nice people lead one another on, to act contrary would be to ensure mutual self destruction. No time for further elaboration.

-----> Will name my next fish Greta, bc they tend to have short life spans. j/k

i think this is kind of sad; even though i know it's true. yes, a lot of life's encounters are bullshit. let's face it, 97% of the time when we ask someone how they are we don't really give a fuck. we're just being polite and if they give us an honest answer we just kind of stare and then say "oh, gee, that's too bad" or some other bullshit.

and yes, "genuine benevolence" is earned. but good, decent, honest behaviour should be the norm damnit. and i don't mean saying someone looks like shit when they ask you if this top makes them look like a box, or if those pants make them look fat. i mean acting as if you care for another human being. not walking through life acting like a prick simply because you're walking through life. i mean making a concerted effort to ensure that you are treating other people with respect, dignity, and kindness as often as humanly possible.

condemning someone for being nice to the child of her employers and then going home at the end of her work day? that just sucks man. again i ask. should she have just done her job and ignored him completely? isn't that exactly the kind of behaviour that you're advocating against?

i know i'm being unfair here because you said you'd have a longer answer later, but please take your time and post whenever. i always look forward to reading your answers. :)


p.s. when you get your fish named greta make sure you post pics in the pets and children thread. :P just make sure it's not a turtle!! :scared:




don't you all attach exaggerated importance to her, this or that way???

I couldn't agree more, and my response is twofold:

1) I didn't start the thread

2) I only jumped in because I couldn't believe how many people thought she was a superhero. I'm almost expecting to see some Greta Shaw tattoos in the DT body art thread.

Turtlesong, I'll quote some passages from DT 7 when I get some time this weekend or early next week. :)

Jayson, good to see you, as always.


i'll be looking forward to your post. :)

and as for point #2:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[razz]

A quick word:

Yes, she led him on, and when he responded in typical child fashion (by wanting more), she didn't give it to him.

"First comes smiles, then comes lies, next comes gunfire" -Roland

I think this is a good metaphor for what postmodernist philosopher Richard Englehardt calls "contracting for morality." We all pleasantly muddle along, but the majority of it is bullshit. Genuine benevolence is earned and is cheapened by the majority of the way people act. So, yes, most nice people lead one another on, to act contrary would be to ensure mutual self destruction. No time for further elaboration.

so in short, she molded Jake into what he is (or was ).
pay it foreward?

[obscurejude]

Turtlesong, I quoted someone else (actually two people if you count Roland) to give my answers a little objectivity. I wasn't necessarily phrasing them as my own, but I'm a fan of authentic. I like people whose actions spring from a defined world view.

I have to ask how is "decent honest behavior" and "97% bullshit" not necessarily mutually exclusive? I think this is where we differ and why I'm a postmodernist in the vein of Wittgenstein/Aristotle and how they've been appropriated by recent moral philosophers like Englehardt and Alisdair MacIntyre. I would rather just e mail you a paper than derail this thread, honestly. Send me your e mail address if you are interested, or not. :)

I'm a nice guy, and fiercely loyal to my friends. Not everyone gets that loyalty. Its a classical view of friendship, and one that is based around common ideals related to virtue.

I really am a nice guy.

[obscurejude]

A quick word:

Yes, she led him on, and when he responded in typical child fashion (by wanting more), she didn't give it to him.

"First comes smiles, then comes lies, next comes gunfire" -Roland

I think this is a good metaphor for what postmodernist philosopher Richard Englehardt calls "contracting for morality." We all pleasantly muddle along, but the majority of it is bullshit. Genuine benevolence is earned and is cheapened by the majority of the way people act. So, yes, most nice people lead one another on, to act contrary would be to ensure mutual self destruction. No time for further elaboration.

so in short, she molded Jake into what he is (or was ).
pay it foreward?

I honestly don't understand a word that you said.

[wildfire1290]

so in short, she molded Jake into what he is (or was ).
pay it foreward?


So despite her "confusing behavior" she molded Jake into a gunslinger? Ha ha never thought about it that way.

[razz]

not really what i was saying. i was simply interpreting what others were saying. but i suppose that summarizes it. i personally see not significance in her.

[LemurJones]

I think Greta wasn't really a particularly good person... just a decent one. She saw a hole in Jake's life, and even though she didn't take on the role of a mother, I think she tried to treat him like a human being. Jake didn't become a gunslinger because she'd been there- that's like saying Roland only became Roland because of Hax- but he became a mature little boy instead of an immature little boy because of it.

If Greta hadn't been around, Jake might have been less considerate and less able to place his trust in Roland, but he would still be Jake.

[sarah]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.


:clap: yes! thank you obscurejude, thank you. I agree 100% with you. Everytime I read the word 'bama I just rolled my eyes.

yes, she felt sorry for him but not really. so yes. fuck her and her stupid 'bama talking shit.

there, i said it. Hmpt!




I honestly don't understand a word that you said, but I think you're a cool kid.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[obscurejude]

You made my night Maerlyn. Thank you. :rose:

[jayson]

I think she just felt obligated to fill in some gaps bc Jake's parents were such bastards. I don't think there was anything virtuous about what she did. I think she's in the story, only to further point out how much Jake's parents sucked. I would never call her his mother, or even his friend. She was just a weak person, who probably made things worse by confusing Jake. She should've just acted like his babysitter. I bet there were many times where Jake wanted to get closer to her (because she acted like more than a nanny) only to be disappointed when she wouldn't meet him all the way. Fuck her.


The jury is still out for me on this one, but I am definitely trending towards this viewpoint. I do think it was somewhat important that somebody showed some legit compassion towards Jake just so he was somewhat familiar with the concept since his parents sucked ass, but I think anything more than that is overstating Greta's importance. Jake would have been ready to be the Gunslinger he was with or without Greta because Roland [his "true father"] prepared him well.

[razz]

maybe we should get a poll on this.

[The Lady of Shadows]

maybe we should get a poll on this.

maybe you should go watch hockey. :nope:

[obscurejude]

I guess the poll would be up to wildfire, but I think it would be a bad idea.

[razz]

maybe we should get a poll on this.

maybe you should go watch hockey. :nope:

I am, and the Wings are winnin'

[Darkthoughts]

I also entirely agree with Ryan. I'm going to have to look up the quotes to back it, but there were certain things that I read that made me think "What a heartless cow!" she could see the situation the poor kid was in and yet didn't feel enough empathy to want to help him (which she could easily have done within her work hours by being warmer to him.)

The things you pro Greta guys are bringing up in her defense are only things she was paid to do. She was paid to make Jake snacks, so if he wanted the crusts cut off shes going to do it because thats how she amkes her money, not because she was a sweet old lady.

I'll be back with the quotes...;)

[obscurejude]

Lisa, I know exactly what you mean. :rose:

[razz]

that's why Jake liked her though. she did here job, and she didn't pretend it was anything more.

[ladysai]

that's why Jake liked her though. she did here job, and she didn't pretend it was anything more.

Exactly!
She did her job with some compassionate human traits, and showed Jake that there is 'goodness' in being realistic and practical. She was who she was, and never tried to have him believe she was anything else.

[Darkthoughts]

She wasn't compassionate though, she felt sorry for him but she was a cold fish despite it. I'm not saying she didn't like him, but she was by no means a hero or even a companion.

Here you go:

"Yes. Did my parents ask you to find out what I'd been upto?"
She nodded. No acting, no put-on. It was a chore, like taking out the trash. You can tell me if you want to, her face said, or you can keep still. I like you Johnny, but its really nothing to me, one way or the other. I just work here, and its already an hour past my regular quitting time. (The Waste Lands).

Jake appreciated her being straight forward, yes. But the debate here is that shes being heralded as a great friend, practically family - which she is not.

[obscurejude]

Jake appreciated her being straight forward, yes. But the debate here is that shes being heralded as a great friend, practically family - which she is not.

Well put dear. :thumbsup:

[razz]

then again, Mr. and Mrs. Chambers really weren't Jakes family either. Roland and the rest of the Tet was.

[Darkthoughts]

??? Thats not in question here though.

[razz]

isn't it, darkthoughts, isn't it?

[obscurejude]

No, it isn't, but your ability to read comprehensively may be a question we are now considering. :lol::cyclops: I suggest taking one of those SAT prep courses if you haven't graduated from high school yet. :harrier:

[wildfire1290]

I don't think that a normal house keeper would stay up with Jake and calm him down when he had a nightmare though...

[wildfire1290]

Also, how do you make a poll for this thread?

[Jean]

Also, how do you make a poll for this thread?
I think you ask a mod. What options would you like to see there?

[wildfire1290]

Also, how do you make a poll for this thread?
I think you ask a mod. What options would you like to see there?

Maybe just a poll asking if Greta was important to the story in a positive way, a negative way, or it just didn't really matter what she did.

[Jean]

to the story, or to Jake??? I mean, "important for the story in a positive/negative way" differs from what has already been discussed in this thread

[Darkthoughts]

I don't think that a normal house keeper would stay up with Jake and calm him down when he had a nightmare though...

She was being paid to babysit over night - you'd hope that anyone being paid to mind your children would comfort them if they woke up afraid.

[Jean]

I don't think that a normal house keeper would stay up with Jake and calm him down when he had a nightmare though...

She was being paid to babysit over night - you'd hope that anyone being paid to mind your children would comfort them if they woke up afraid.
yes. It is normal. As I said, she brought normality to Jake's life.

[Matt]

I still agree with Darkers though. I do not believe that anyone is saying Greta was a bad person, just that anyone who believes she was a pseudo mom to Jake is way off.

Jake had no family basically, that is what made who he was.

[The Lady of Shadows]

let's have a poll about whether or not we should have a poll! :P

now on to important stuff. i'm reading wolves again now and you know, jake still thinks about/reminisces about greta in that book. that seems a pretty significant influence in somebody's life. to have gone through everything he's gone through and still be thinking about/reminiscing about someone who had no meaning in his life.

i still say she had a bigger impact in his life than she's given credit for - she provided much needed stability. a sense that some people could be exactly who they were, no more and no less. that adults were capable of telling it like it was with no bullshit, no lies, no false-faces.

[ladysai]

I cant for the life of me understand why some of you have a problem with Greta doing her job honestly, competently and compassionately.
Like by doing so, she was being misleading and dishonest...

I just dont get it.
:blink:

[razz]

1. they seem to idolize her for doing her job. Jake liked her because she didn't muddle the water
2. DON'T BLINK!!!
http://www.voga.co.uk/photos/SFDA080_lg.jpg
God! how many times must i say it?

[Matt]

I think folks on the other side have mis understood the opinion on Greta. At least for me.

I don't think she was a bad person for what she did, I think what happened could happen to just about anyone. However, she gave Jake a mixed message...she cut his crusts (mommy thing--not prescribed in the babysitters hand book) and then told him her "shift was over" when anything serious came down.

The crusts thing is fine if you are watching a boy who's parents are in his life, not good for Jakes type.

Of course Jake remembers her fondly but that doesn't make the infulence she had over him positive imo.

How in the hell does a kid his age say...."I hate people, they fuck me up" to Roland 5 minutes after meeting him if he had any kind of stability at home. Anyone taking care of him emotionally at all.

That's my point, I don't hate her though and I don't think she did anything especially horrible where Jake was concerned. Like a lie by omission--not direct.

[The Lady of Shadows]

I think folks on the other side have mis understood the opinion on Greta. At least for me.

I don't think she was a bad person for what she did, I think what happened could happen to just about anyone. However, she gave Jake a mixed message...she cut his crusts (mommy thing--not prescribed in the babysitters hand book) and then told him her "shift was over" when anything serious came down.

The crusts thing is fine if you are watching a boy who's parents are in his life, not good for Jakes type.

Of course Jake remembers her fondly but that doesn't make the infulence she had over him positive imo.

How in the hell does a kid his age say...."I hate people, they fuck me up" to Roland 5 minutes after meeting him if he had any kind of stability at home. Anyone taking care of him emotionally at all.

That's my point, I don't hate her though and I don't think she did anything especially horrible where Jake was concerned. Like a lie by omission--not direct.


so it's more that she did too much? is that what you're saying? that i think i can understand. that's fair enough.

[Jean]

I cant for the life of me understand why some of you have a problem with Greta doing her job honestly, competently and compassionately.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_laugh.gif I wonder how many more new ways of expressing this same basic idea we two will be able to find

[Darkthoughts]

On the first couple of pages of this thread people were describing her in glowing terms, thats the part I disagree with.

She was a competant housekeeper, but when she makes a comment like "I don't care what you think either way, my shift is nearly over" I don't think you can call her compassionate.
She was honest only in the way in which she drew a line for Jake - the line being, "I'll do what I'm paid to do, don't expect anything more."

She obviously liked Jake better than she liked his parents, and she clearly thought they weren't very good parents - but what do you really think a maid's opinion of her rich employers is?

I don't dislike the woman, shes a slice of normality in this poor boys dysfunctional life. But she was helpful to Jake because he appreciated her predictability - not because she was actively behaving a certain way to him.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I don't think that a normal house keeper would stay up with Jake and calm him down when he had a nightmare though...

She was being paid to babysit over night - you'd hope that anyone being paid to mind your children would comfort them if they woke up afraid.

She wasn't paid to mind Jake--she was paid to clean. She was a housekeeper who took on a few minor traits as a nanny because she could see Jake needed it. And she wasn't paid to live-in either, as it states that she does go home after work.

I don't think of her as any type of saint, but I do think she was a good person in a tough situation, She didn't want to overly bond with Jake because he had parents and she had her own home life, but she did what she could while still being professional.

The kid had a power hungry coke addict for a father and a barely sentitenent mother, I think if she had been completely cold I would have had no respect for her.

Now for the actual question of whether she was important to the story?

I think she was important to the story because she did show the glaring abnormalities in Jake's life. Even though she wasn't particularly warm, or overly affectionate, she was the white to Jake's parents' black as far as behavior. So for the story's sake, yes I think she was important.

Her character's presence in Jake's life helped illustrate how awful his parents really were without King having to sit down and make a laundry list of things they did or didn't do.

[obscurejude]

A laundry list would have been better than that bitch. :D

[The Lady of Shadows]

A laundry list would have been better than that bitch. :D

ouch. someone's feeling a wee bit snarky. okay, here's a nice sandwich for you. here, i'll even cut the crusts off. do you want some milk? how about some cookies? if you'd like i'll sing you a song. :lol:

[obscurejude]

Could you stay over tonight? I'm feeling a little bit scared of a tyranasorbet rex. Will you give me false security, so the next time I need you it will be even more terrifying and the sense of stability you gave me so freely will be snatched away, leaving nothing buy my terror and the pink elephant in the room (reality)? I know its not part of your job description, but you're a superhero and symbolize everything that is right in the world. Can you lift me up into the light that is your soul?

[MonteGss]

:lol:


I really don't think Greta Shaw was super important. I think Jake's parents, however shitty they may be, were a bigger influence in the gunslinger that Jake became.

[The Lady of Shadows]

Could you stay over tonight? I'm feeling a little bit scared of a tyranasorbet rex. Will you give me false security, so the next time I need you it will be even more terrifying and the sense of stability you gave me so freely will be snatched away, leaving nothing buy my terror and the pink elephant in the room (reality)? I know its not part of your job description, but you're a superhero and symbolize everything that is right in the world. Can you lift me up into the light that is your soul?


absofuckinglutely. and while i'm at it, i'll leap tall buildings in a single bound, stop speeding bullets with my eyeball, lift cars off of screaming children, and bathe you in the wholesome goodness that is me. because god knows you need it. oh, and i also do windows.

but just so we're clear, i'm not spending the fucking night ever again. ever again. because in reality, i am scared to death of your father. i've only ever shown it once, and you were too fucking absorbed in that whole "oh, i'm going crazy from being killed" and all to notice. but seriously, he scares the shit out of me. i thought he was going to kill us all when you took your little "french leave" from school that day. so try to show a little appreciation for us working stiffs and understand that i'm just trying to survive here. oh, and by the way 'bama? how was your sandwich sweetie? :huglove:

[obscurejude]

The sandwich sucked. After all this time, you still can't cut the crusts off without smashing the bread. Have you been dipping into my dad's stash? You're only scared of him because he threatened to cut you off.

[obscurejude]

Oh yeah, :huglove:

[The Lady of Shadows]

all right you spoiled little fucker let's do this. :rollsupsleeves:

you're selfish, self-centered, egotistical, and a meglomanic. you didn't even care that when you busted into the kitchen that day, early as shit i might add, i almost fell off the fucking stool did you? no. and do you want to know why? because you only see things through the prism of how they affect you. me, me, me. that's all i ever fucking hear from anyone in this family. greta, i need this. greta, i need that. greta, i want this. greta, i want that. greta, you have to sleep over and babysit the fucking kid. greta, stay out of my fucking cocaine or your fired. well you know what. i'm sick of this shit. you want a piece of me. do you?

oh, i didn't see you standing there 'bama. how were those cookies? would you like a few more? did you have a paper you needed to show me? well, let's see it then. that's great. you go on upstairs now, dinner will be ready in about an hour. :huglove:

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: *calls a psychiatrist*


Ves - in the instance when Greta stayed over the night she had infact been asked specifically to babysit (and was therefore paid) by Jake's parents ;)

But in general, a cleaner is a cleaner and a housekeeper is someone who does cleaning plus other household duties including laundry, cooking etc. One of my sisters is a housekeeper for an elderly couple, she even takes them shopping etc - so I don't think Greta was going above and beyond.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I agree that she was no super-nanny or super-housekeeper. What I was trying to say was ,I think she was a realtively decent human being that did her best in a shitty situation.

And Jude--did someone forget to give you your warm milk before bed?

[Empath of the White]

I've been away for a while...what's with all the "fuck greta shaw" I've been reading lately?

Is it because in cutting the crusts off the sandwhiches she smushes the bread?

[The Lady of Shadows]

I've been away for a while...what's with all the "fuck greta shaw" I've been reading lately?

Is it because in cutting the crusts off the sandwhiches she smushes the bread?

have you read this whole thread? you really should. it's rather funny. but basically, obscurejude is insane and needs to get over his unjust hate of a fine upstanding citizen. and his insanity is leaking out into the denizens of this fine message board. it's sad really.

:lol:

[obscurejude]

:rolleyes:

[obscurejude]

I've been away for a while...what's with all the "fuck greta shaw" I've been reading lately?

Is it because in cutting the crusts off the sandwhiches she smushes the bread?

have you read this whole thread? you really should. it's rather funny. but basically, obscurejude is insane and needs to get over his unjust hate of a fine upstanding citizen. and his insanity is leaking out into the denizens of this fine message board. it's sad really.

:lol:

You, more than anyone on here, knows why I hate that bitch.

[The Lady of Shadows]

yes. but since it really wasn't something i was going to broadcast to the multitudes, i thought i would keep the mood light and frothy. was i wrong? :unsure:

[obscurejude]

An arbiter of collective insanity seems a bit heavy handed. :cry:

[The Lady of Shadows]

oh, but just for this thread my dear, dear ryan. in all threads otherwise you are the purveyor of wisdom and keen insight.




feel better now? :rose:

[obscurejude]

oh, but just for this thread my dear, dear ryan. in all threads otherwise you are the purveyor of wisdom and keen insight.




feel better now? :rose:

I do. :rose:

[ksmithcats]

Greta has had a profound and lasting impact on my life. Whenever my husband or one of my children passes gas, I say "rootie-tootie-salootie".

[turtlex]

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

Greta Shaw is as important to Jake, as Calpernia is to Scout and Jem in To Kill A Mockingbird. Maybe even more so, given that Jem and Scout at least had one caring parent and Jake did not.

[jayson]

It's an interesting comparison Turtlex, but I think Calpurnia had a bit more of a legitimate role as a mother figure to Jem and Scout because their mother is dead. Jake's is not, she's just a bitch. Therefore Calpurnia is not overstepping her bounds as much as Greta is. As I see it, it's not a question of whether Greta fills that role for Jake as much as it is whether or not it's her place to do so.

[turtlex]

It's an interesting comparison Turtlex, but I think Calpurnia had a bit more of a legitimate role as a mother figure to Jem and Scout because their mother is dead. Jake's is not, she's just a bitch. Therefore Calpurnia is not overstepping her bounds as much as Greta is. As I see it, it's not a question of whether Greta fills that role for Jake as much as it is whether or not it's her place to do so.

Is there ever the place for an employee to do that?

[jayson]

Possibly, at the discretion of the employer. Back to Mockingbird as an example, I think Atticus was comfortable with Calpurnia playing the role of surrogate mother at times as the children had no living mother.

[turtlex]

Ah, yes. I see your point.

[jayson]

Cool. Not sure how coherent I am at 6:00am on a Sunday when I intended to sleep much later than that.

[Mianjo]

I can see both sides of the argument. My opinion? I think Greta Shaw was more important to Jake than Jake was to Greta Shaw. Sure, she took care of him (cut his crusts off, stayed with him after he had bad dreams, etc), but it seems to me like it was, indeed, just part of her job.

Let's say Mr. and Mrs. Chambers had a cat who preferred a little water mixed in with its dry cat food and its litter box under the window instead of next to the door. Would she do these things? More than likely yes, because she is being paid to do it. I don't believe it was anything more for her than fulfilling a basic need for the son (pet?) of the couple she was working for.

Jake's need for basic human touch lent more import to their interactions than was warranted. If his parents parented, this discussion would be moot.

[turtlex]

I can see both sides of the argument. My opinion? I think Greta Shaw was more important to Jake than Jake was to Greta Shaw. Sure, she took care of him (cut his crusts off, stayed with him after he had bad dreams, etc), but it seems to me like it was, indeed, just part of her job.

Let's say Mr. and Mrs. Chambers had a cat who preferred a little water mixed in with its dry cat food and its litter box under the window instead of next to the door. Would she do these things? More than likely yes, because she is being paid to do it. I don't believe it was anything more for her than fulfilling a basic need for the son (pet?) of the couple she was working for.

Jake's need for basic human touch lent more import to their interactions than was warranted. If his parents parented, this discussion would be moot.

I think this is a very valid observation ( see bolded text ). Whereas, using Calpernia as an example, she seemed more personally involved with Jem and Scout.

[jayson]

I think this is a very valid observation ( see bolded text ). Whereas, using Calpernia as an example, she seemed more personally involved with Jem and Scout.

No doubt there. The relationship between Calpurnia and the Finch children was a two-way street.

[sarah]

can't we change the title of this thread to "Fuck Gretta Shaw"

:P

[obscurejude]

:lol:

[turtlex]

can't we change the title of this thread to "Fuck Gretta Shaw"

:P

Hmmmm....I'm not sure, just how attractive was she?!? :)

[sarah]

:wtf:


:rofl:

[jayson]

:rofl:

Blaine says she's as hot as Edith Bunker.

[turtlex]

:rofl:

Blaine says she's as hot as Edith Bunker.

Mmmm, now that's a tempting dish, eh?

Gonna pass on the f*cking of Greta Shaw, thankee. :unsure:

[The Lady of Shadows]

not everyone hates greta shaw. :P

[Jean]

not everyone hates greta shaw. :P

Precisely.

[sarah]

True. Not everyone sees how pointless everything about her is. and that ok, i guess.

:P

[jayson]

not everyone hates greta shaw. :P

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. :borg:

[obscurejude]

:borg:

[flaggwalkstheline]

Greta shaw is a mother figure to jake, its not that his parents were evil persay (I thought the whole thing about elmer using the word "factoids" to be quite comical) just indifferent, as if jake was sort of an inconvienience that happened to be there son and they would tolerate because that was what they thought parents do

I would actually consider greta shaws influence on jake to be similar to the way cort influenced roland, though obviously with very different methods
I mean that roland considered cort to be his mentor and teacher, cort was the caretaker of the potential gunslingers, I dont think that there are many instances of rolands remembereing something steven deschain (his father) said to him but his recollection of cort is frequent, same with jake and greta or eddie and henry for that matter
susana is lacking in a long gone mentor figure since she has company enough in her own head

[obscurejude]

I would suggest reading the whole thread. This point has been made many, many, many times. As well as refuted.

I don't think anybody has compared her to Cort though.

I like the image of David ripping Greta's eye out.

[The Lady of Shadows]

:angry:

:arg:

[obscurejude]

:P

[flaggwalkstheline]

ok ok my bad no need to make frowny faces at me

[obscurejude]

I think those were directed at me. I'm the ying to turtlesong's yang.

[The Lady of Shadows]

I think those were directed at me. I'm the ying to turtlesong's yang.

absolutely. :couple:

[sarah]

:rolleyes:

turtlesong and obscurejude puh-leeze!

[The Lady of Shadows]

oh miss maerlyn? may i direct you to your sig? :lol:

[sarah]

Robot Santa? :unsure:


:p