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View Full Version : Thousand lost worlds of the rose *spoilers*



Letti
05-10-2008, 01:22 AM
So... how did it work for Callahan?

One day he got up and he was in a world where the bedcover of the motel room where he stayed was pink (it was in Leabrook) and some days later he got up in another one where it was orange (in Fort Lee). So he could tell easily in which world he got up.
But hey... if he was slipping from one world to the other... doesn't it mean that once he existed in this one and on the other day he existed in that one?

It means that when he went to work to Leabrook Homestyle Dinner he didn't exist in Fort Lee so he could not go to work there!
Do you get the point?
He can't exist in two worlds at the same time so he must be missing in one of them and it means he should get fired very quickly because on every second or third day he doesn't go to work. (We know he does but in another world.)

Or can he exist and go to work in both of the worlds at the same time? How so? If he can't why doesn't he get fired very quickly? (I am sure you remember that the owner of the place told he if he was late twice he would get fired immedaitely.) How can he work this way for 3 weeks?
I hope you see where the hard paradox is and why I don't find the answer.
I hope you can help me.

Brainslinger
05-10-2008, 05:50 AM
I completely get what you're saying as the thought occurred to me as well.

Anyway, spoilers ahead for the Dark Tower books and minor spoilers for Salem's Lot and The Talisman.


That whole period seemed strange to me as shortly before arriving at the hotel, Callahan had to specifically go across a specific hidden bridge, and suddenly he is flipping worlds willy-nilly.

One explanation could just be that he was very drunk for much of that time, so his vagueness is due to that. I.e he could have been still walking down highways in hiding etc. he just didn't mention it or forgot. No I don't buy that either, considering the change in bed clothes etc.(Just as well that bed in the other world wasn't occupied wasn't it. Hee hee.)

As for the diner, I suppose it's possible that when he crossed worlds he just applied for the job again in that world but didn't mention it. I agree that's not the impression we got though.

When I mentioned this on the DT.net site, some while ago, another poster, Ivanova, suggested it might be a twinner thing. I.e. there was another Callahan in the other world with a parallel history who applied for a job in that diner, and flipping across during his sleep simply caused him to enter that person's body. Like what happens to folk with twinners in the Talisman.

I'm not convinced, but it's an interesting explanation and it would explain a lot.

I have another theory, that when Callahan enters a world, he somehow is actually incorporated into the history of that world too. I.e. a history is created for him maybe... like a place holder. How this happens I don't know for sure, but I seem to remember a scene when Eddie and Roland are talking about Callahan. They mention the part of his story when he took the child's funeral in Jerusalem's Lot, and how Callahan felt a sudden sense of unreality, otherness. They speculated that Callahan originated from another world, (possibly the Keystone world) and actually crossed over into the world of Salem's world at that moment, although he was unaware that is what had happened at the time, apart from the feeling of dislocation. (Little aside- remember someone else who felt something like that at the start of the Revised Gunslinger?)

That puzzled me though, since Callahan had a history in Salem's Lot which he even relates. He remembers taking up residence there, and he had been asked to attend the funeral, so how could he have crossed over into that world during the funeral that he had been asked to take? Answer: a history was generated for him in that world. (Course the twinner thing would work here too, but what would be the point in this case?) I.e, although he had been mentioned in passing earlier in the book, that was the first time we actually saw him in person, in that book (Salem's Lot I mean.) That's the first time he actually appears in the story. So to follow the mythology of The Dark Tower, he entered that world at that point... complete with a history in that world generated for him by Gan, the writer, whoever.

It perhaps also explains why Susannah's memory of Mid-World faded when she took up residence in that other world with Eddie and Jake Toren (bearing in mind her ka was finished in End-World.) The 'generated history' theory might also explain how Roland was able to pick up the horn, even though he was returned to a point after that particular moment.

It's a bit confusing but I hope that makes sense.

Letti
05-10-2008, 05:58 AM
Wow, Brainslinger thank you for taking your time to write down your thoughts because they are very interesting. I need some time to think about them to be able to decide if the paradox is solved or not.
Write as much as possible my friend. :rose:

MonteGss
05-10-2008, 08:07 AM
I believe it is a Twinner thing, actually. However, I will not fill this wonderful thread with my "crazy" ideas. That is what this (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1169) thread is for. :)

obscurejude
05-10-2008, 08:57 AM
I believe it is a Twinner thing, actually. However, I will not fill this wonderful thread with my "crazy" ideas. That is what this (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1169) thread is for. :)

Agreed on all accounts. :cowboy:

MonteGss
05-10-2008, 09:02 AM
Great minds, my friend...:)

obscurejude
05-10-2008, 09:03 AM
Indeed.

jayson
05-10-2008, 09:32 AM
I believe it is a Twinner thing, actually. However, I will not fill this wonderful thread with my "crazy" ideas. That is what this (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1169) thread is for. :)

I'm pretty much in agreement on this one. Multiple worlds, multiple Callahans. Somehow this Callahan obtained consciousness of the others and was able to maneuver between them, whether intentionally or not, he was able to piece together a somewhat cohesive memory of being more than one of himself. Neat trick.:thumbsup:

Brice
05-10-2008, 09:54 AM
I don't know. I think the nature of dimensional travel would inherently carry a new and seperate history. I don't think they'd be different yous. I think you'd just have entirely different histories (memories and all) as you passed into a new dimension/world/whatever.

MonteGss
05-10-2008, 09:57 AM
I personally don't believe that Twinners are "different" yous. *shrugs*

jayson
05-10-2008, 09:58 AM
that's also entirely possible Brice.

jayson
05-10-2008, 10:00 AM
I personally don't believe that Twinners are "different" yous. *shrugs*

that sounds like something i'd like to hear you expand upon some more...

Wuducynn
05-10-2008, 10:09 AM
I don't know. I think the nature of dimensional travel would inherently carry a new and seperate history. I don't think they'd be different yous. I think you'd just have entirely different histories (memories and all) as you passed into a new dimension/world/whatever.


This is how I see it also. :harrier:

ManOfWesternesse
05-10-2008, 10:10 AM
Damn good question again Letti.
It's very hard to see how it's not a paradox unless there are .... not exactly 'twinners' (I think) but ... variations of Callahan living normally in those other realities. 'Our' Callahan happened upon a way of shuffling himself from one to another. (Don't know if that affects those other Callahans at all or not - maybe they never even realise it's happening.)

Brice
05-10-2008, 10:12 AM
If there are (presumably) infinite worlds then every possibility must exist as reality somewhere.

To my mind they are not different Callahan's in the conventional sense of different. They are all him...sorta' kinda' like the christian concept of a trinity just multiplied exponentially. They are different and the same simultaneously.

Wuducynn
05-10-2008, 10:12 AM
Damn good question again Letti.
It's very hard to see how it's not a paradox unless there are .... not exactly 'twinners' (I think) but ... variations of Callahan living normally in those other realities. 'Our' Callahan happened upon a way of shuffling himself from one to another. (Don't know if that affects those other Callahans at all or not - maybe they never even realise it's happening.)

Thats what I think Brice is on to, above.

obscurejude
05-10-2008, 10:14 AM
I don't know. I think the nature of dimensional travel would inherently carry a new and seperate history. I don't think they'd be different yous. I think you'd just have entirely different histories (memories and all) as you passed into a new dimension/world/whatever.

The only way that could be possible is if you already existed in the worlds. I.e. a separate "you" already had the memories. If you flip back and forth, then one of you assumes the consciousness of the other without realizing it, thus no disparity between peoples, like when Jack is able to speak the language of the territories without realizing he is doing it.

obscurejude
05-10-2008, 10:15 AM
I just realized that Jack is unique because his twin Jason died, but the point remains- that's the reason that he is able to speak the other language, or Callahan is able to use different currency is because of the existence of another person/reality. I don't know, this is confusing.

jayson
05-10-2008, 10:17 AM
The only way that could be possible is if you already existed in the worlds. I.e. a separate "you" already had the memories. If you flip back and forth, then one of you assumes the consciousness of the other without realizing it, thus no disparity between peoples, like when Jack is able to speak the language of the territories without realizing he is doing it.

but Jack does not have a twinner in the Territories. he is a singular entity. he's not assuming the consciousness of a twinner, he is still himself. don't ask me what collectice consciousness he taps into to speak the local language, it's a good trick, but i don't think he flipped into another jack, i think he flipped 100% of himself into the Territories. No?

ok, just saw your post there. nevermind. i do agree with the rest of what you said anyhow.

obscurejude
05-10-2008, 10:20 AM
Yeah, Jayson, there must be a collective conscious to tap into or Jack wouldn't be able to speak the language or use sticks for currency. I think its the same thing going on with Callahan.

Letti
05-10-2008, 11:42 AM
I have another theory, that when Callahan enters a world, he somehow is actually incorporated into the history of that world too. I.e. a history is created for him maybe... like a place holder.

I know this answer above is not perfect (I don't think we can get a perfect answer for this question) but this is the only one my mind can accept. It's still damn hard but maybe it can work for me.
Keep thinking about it.
Ehhh...

Somehow I am not into this Twin-thing. It doesn't work for me. I don't really know why. That's okay that there are tons of worlds out there and there are many Callahans but I simply can't think of them as twins. For me all of them have their own lives and fates and they can be incredibly different. There are many Callahans out there who could never find their ways to Calla.

Darkthoughts
05-10-2008, 01:31 PM
I think with Callahan, it wasn't even necessary for him to be absorbed into the history of whichever place he flips into - hes simply on the road (in more ways than one) he's outside of society and doesn't need a background.

I don't think he is part of the Twinner phenomenon either, Twinners are quite rare, as Parkus points out in the Talisman. And you don't have to be a Twinner to travel the highways in hiding.

Jean
05-11-2008, 12:08 AM
Somehow I am not into this Twin-thing. It doesn't work for me.
I knew I loved you for a whole lot of reasons, and here's one of them! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bearheart.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bearheart.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bearheart.gif

mia/susannah
05-11-2008, 02:55 AM
The twinner does not work for me either. I pretty much agree with Brainlinger. A history was created for him

Brainslinger
05-11-2008, 08:51 AM
Thanks. I don't think the history thing is always the case though. For example when Roland goes through a doorway America-side, I'm not suggesting that he automatically has a history in that world too, that he's suddenly an American citizen, the son of Steve the sheriff of Bangor,or whatever. (That was a rubbish example but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

I think it works for the more subtle flipping of worlds that Callahan undertakes though, i.e. where he just passes through worlds as easily as walking down the road or falling asleep.

That kind of throws a spanner in the works of my theory concerning Susannah's change in memory in DT7... but not entirely. She likely doesn't have a history in that new world, but obviously some kind of incorporation is still taking place with the fading of her memories and the changing of her ka.

I think basically, different things happen in different circumstances, depending on the nature of what the character is meant to do. (It's tempting to say, it happens to how the writer writes it but that's too obvious and it's nice to find an 'in story' explanation isn't it?)

It reminds me a bit of when Hiro from that series Heroes teleports into another time and space, even though he has just appeared, nobody around shows any surprise. Almost as if he just somehow becomes incorporated into the history of that place somehow... (Actually it's probably got more to say about other peoples lack of observation, but anyhow.)

Sorry, I'm not trying to turn this into a Heroes discussion. I just thought the parallel was interesting.

Empath of the White
05-17-2008, 08:16 PM
I like your theory Brainslinger. I think that his drifting might've had something to do with the Breakers attacking the Beams, which caused slight disturbances that in turn caused rifts in the boundaries between the multiple Americas.

Letti
05-22-2008, 01:10 AM
Thanks. I don't think the history thing is always the case though. For example when Roland goes through a doorway America-side, I'm not suggesting that he automatically has a history in that world too, that he's suddenly an American citizen, the son of Steve the sheriff of Bangor,or whatever. (That was a rubbish example but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

But we mustn't forget that doors and accidental slippings are not the same... so it's normal that when you step into another world through a door you won't exist in both. But when you are just slipping.. that's something very different.

Anyway why was Callahan slipping? Do we know it? I cry your pardon if the answer is obvious.

obscurejude
05-22-2008, 08:35 AM
Just a thought:

Once Callahan became convinced of other worlds, he wasn't afraid to die. He jumped through the window, avoiding the fate that Sayre had ascribed to him.

Could have been a similar thing for Jake, why he told Roland to go, and why he chose to let go of the train rail.

As a plot device, it works well for these reasons.

alinda
05-22-2008, 09:28 AM
*stops to pick up the blown peices of my mind*
I think in a way your all correct, you sure are smart!
Very interesting thoughts y'all. This is the closest to
my thoughts on the subject.....
Quote Brice:
If there are (presumably) infinite worlds then every possibility must exist as reality somewhere.

Actually it is next door to what I believe is true right now.

http://ts3.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1623834640174&id=ee6590465623f5a82b7338a239ab376a

Brainslinger
05-23-2008, 01:35 PM
But we mustn't forget that doors and accidental slippings are not the same... so it's normal that when you step into another world through a door you won't exist in both. But when you are just slipping.. that's something very different.


That makes sense. I'm not sure if Callahan always existed in that other world before he 'slipped' though (like twinners), or whether the history was created for him when he did. (That's confusing isn't it? He existed in the world before he entered it only after entering it.... durrrrrrr.... never mind...)



Anyway why was Callahan slipping? Do we know it? I cry your pardon if the answer is obvious.

It seemed to be mainly tied to his imbibing the blood of Barlow. True there is some suggestion it happened for the first time at the funeral of the child (I believe it was Danny Glick), at least that's what Roland and Eddie speculate. However, his ability to detect vampires, see the vagrant dead and his ability to find the highways in hiding (and the general slipping) appeared to happen in earnest after that.

I think the vampires, are more aware of the thin spaces, being in a sense rather thin themselves. By cursing Callahan, Barlow ironically gave him that power.

As for why it happened the first time (assuming Eddie and Roland were right, since it is mainly speculation) I guess that could be due to Gan pushing Callahan across, via the writer entering Callahan into the story of Salem's lot.

Remember how many of the folk of the books also had counterparts in the Keystone world? And also remember when Eddie is talking to Roland about this sense of unreality he feels in Roland's world. He says something along the lines, (not exact quote) "The people themselves are all real, it's everything else..."

I kind of assumed it was King's way of saying how characters take a life all of their own, (and I think that is still very much the case) but in the context of the story, maybe it's something to take literally. The people already exist, King writes, and they pass into another world as dictated by the story. They themselves though are unaware.

Later books spoilers:
That would also explain how Susannah's relatives exist in the keystone world, even though she appears to come from a different version of America. Maybe she originally did come from there too, but on appearing in Drawing of the Three, she crossed over too.... before Roland took her through the door to the beach. She wouldn't have been aware however, as.. the world would have incorporated her along with her history, but with some deviations like the trains station she lost her legs being different. Maybe that's the same for the other characters too.

Whitey Appleseed
01-11-2009, 06:17 AM
I dunno, but whenever there is talk of space, time is a factor in the picture, as well. So suppose that when Callahan flips between worlds time is different, as well. We know from the story that time acts differently regarding the time factor of when Tower's/Toren's agreement expires and how time acts in the Calla. So is it possible that when Callahan flips, time slows in the world from which he flipped?

ImprisonedNtheDarkTower
02-28-2009, 09:27 PM
I dunno, but whenever there is talk of space, time is a factor in the picture, as well. So suppose that when Callahan flips between worlds time is different, as well. We know from the story that time acts differently regarding the time factor of when Tower's/Toren's agreement expires and how time acts in the Calla. So is it possible that when Callahan flips, time slows in the world from which he flipped?



Callahan is strong telepathic breaker. he just doesn't realize it. now i know this is just a theory. but he's like sheemie. Callahan can create doorways, but do this, to be correct in theory. he would yes have to somehow stop time completely in the "beta" world...anyways just a thought :)