Allie - "The First Sacrificial Lamb"

[Erin]

I know we've discussed her a bit in other threads, but I feel that this tragic character deserves her own thread.

Allie is one of the characters in the series who frequently comes to my mind, sometimes more often than members of the ka-tet. When we first meet her in The Gunslinger, she's just so pitiful, with her safety pin dress and scar on her forehead. I feel for her, I think she's could have really been somebody if she wasn't trapped, wasting away in Tull.

Anyways, let's start discussing Allie...Roland's "first sacrificial lamb" in the Dark Tower series as Bev Vincent calls her in his book The Road To The Dark Tower.

[Letti]

I liked her a lot too. I loved the way she spoke, it could touch.
How can she come to your mind so often?

[Storyslinger]

She was definitly key to the series. Mainly in the revised version. It's really to bad, but like Letti said, "Why so often?"

[mia/susannah]

I felt bad for Allie as well. I felt really bad when Roland had to shoot her when he was leaving.

[Erin]

I'm not really sure why I think of her often....i just pity her in a way. As I mentioned earlier, I think she's one of the most tragic characters, next to Roland, in the series.

[obscurejude]

Erin, I feel the same way. She made an indelible impression upon me as well. And its not like she isn't mentioned several times throughout the series she doesn't seem to be far from Roland's thoughts either.

[Mark]

And its not like she isn't mentioned several times throughout the series she doesn't seem to be far from Roland's thoughts either.

WHen? Could i have an example please?

[Letti]

I liked Allie because she wanted to trust Roland so so much. That Roland was a very lonely and hard man/monster still Allie was able to love him.

[MonteGss]

You think Allie loved Roland? Is this just a feeling you have Letti? I don't recall that feeling from her at all, nor from Roland...

[Wuducynn]

Yeah, I don't see Allie as loving Roland. She was facinated with him, and lusted after him and was VERY lonely.

[Letti]

It depends on that you mean by love. I don't say she was in love with him I don't say she would have been able to die for him. There are so many types of love and yes I feel in some weird way she loved him because she wanted to love and feel again.

[Wuducynn]

I know there are many kinds of love, but I don't see her having love for Roland. She needed him in different ways because of her loneliness and her horniness but she didn't know him long enough to love him

[obscurejude]

And its not like she isn't mentioned several times throughout the series she doesn't seem to be far from Roland's thoughts either.

WHen? Could i have an example please?

There are a lot of random passages, "and Allie the woman from Tull." I don't have a concordance and no time to hunt them down. She's mentioned at least twice in DT 2 and DT 3. Roland briefly thinks of her in DT 4 before he tales his tale. Somebody help me out?

[obscurejude]

I just remembered doesn't the grapefruit show Roland a vision of Allie, just for a second- I know Sheb's there but wasn't Allie too? I just woke up.

[sarah]

I don't see Allie loving Roland. Maybe she saw him as a way out but I don't know if I believe that either. I do think Allie was lonely and sad and was comforted by Roland. I don't think she was waiting around to be saved or anything. I think she was just another player put in front of Roland to try and stop him from going to The Tower.

[Letti]

I can't say I am sure Allie loved Roland but I think it was absolutely possible.

[Brice]

I know there are many kinds of love, but I don't see her having love for Roland. She needed him in different ways because of her loneliness and her horniness but she didn't know him long enough to love him


How long do you have to know someone to love them?

[obscurejude]

Brice, six to ten days.

[Mordred Deschain]

:lol:

[Wuducynn]

How long do you have to know someone to love them?

Well that depends, if its you, hmmmmmmmmm if you bathed recently....I'd give 'em a couple of years...

[Brice]

:cry:


Brice, six to ten days.

And how did you come up with that number. :lol:

[Wuducynn]

Seriously though, you can fall in love with someone quickly of course. But with Alice I don't see it as the case. I actually went back last night and re-read the parts with her in it and it just backed it up. She was awfully lonely and wanted a companion and lusted after him a lot but love? No.

[jayson]

Seriously though, you can fall in love with someone quickly of course. But with Alice I don't see it as the case. I actually went back last night and re-read the parts with her in it and it just backed it up. She was awfully lonely and wanted a companion and lusted after him a lot but love? No.

i agree with you matthew. allie's feelings for roland were born of desperation, loneliness and lust, not love.

[Letti]

Seriously though, you can fall in love with someone quickly of course. But with Alice I don't see it as the case. I actually went back last night and re-read the parts with her in it and it just backed it up. She was awfully lonely and wanted a companion and lusted after him a lot but love? No.

i agree with you matthew. allie's feelings for roland were born of desperation, loneliness and lust, not love.

It happens that love is born from desperation, lonelinnes and lust. Love has so many faces.
Still I don't I can't claim Allie loved Roland but that's how I feel so.

[Darkthoughts]

To put it another way perhaps, would you want someone to love you only because they were lonely - not because of who you are?

[obscurejude]

I think (operative word) what Letti was getting at was that love comes out of a desire to cease to be alone. If we were self sufficient, we wouldn't desire any relationships and particularly ones with the opposite sex. It changes a little between Roland and Allie after they've "hooked up" initially. They do some talking, especially in the revised edition. Like I mentioned earlier, Roland kept thinking about her...

[Letti]

To put it another way perhaps, would you want someone to love you only because they were lonely - not because of who you are?

There were people in my life who loved me because they were lonely. I didn't make a big deal if it but I knew it deep in my heart.
Of course it's the best to be loved because you are who you are, no question.
So to answer to your question, no it's not my wish to be loved because of loneliness but when it happens I think it's natural and I hope that the other one will know me enough in the future to be able to love me because if the person inside.

Love is like a seed.

[Darkthoughts]

To my mind he only thought of her out of guilt for the way things ended.

[Letti]

To my mind he only thought of her out of guilt for the way things ended.

But that Roland wasn't that type of guy who cared about others, was he?

[Darkthoughts]

To put it another way perhaps, would you want someone to love you only because they were lonely - not because of who you are?

There were people in my life who loved me because they were lonely. I didn't make a big deal if it but I knew it deep in my heart.
Of course it's the best to be loved because you are who you are, no question.
So to answer to your question, no it's not my wish to be loved because of loneliness but when it happens I think it's natural and I hope that the other one will know me enough in the future to be able to love me because if the person inside.

Love is like a seed.
The question was purely hypothetical, but by asking it I meant to illustrate how Roland had no emotional attachment to Allie, he wanted to be fed, he wanted to rest and he was willing to sleep with her in exchange for her acting as a sort of maid to him. I really see him as that cold and emotionally void at that point. And in a way I think her neediness was part of what made it so easy for him to kill her, he resented being made to feel the way she made him feel (for the way he treated her) and he despised the type of weakness that she showed him.

As for Allie, I don't think she loved Roland, she just wanted the company of a man as her life had become so empty.
I obviously see Roland's relationship with Allie differently to you, Letti.



To my mind he only thought of her out of guilt for the way things ended.

But that Roland wasn't that type of guy who cared about others, was he?

I don't understand what you mean by that, can you elaborate :)

[Brice]

To put it another way perhaps, would you want someone to love you only because they were lonely - not because of who you are?

Some people desperately need whatever love comes their way.

[Darkthoughts]

Yes I agree, but I don't think it was love on either part with Allie and Roland. Theres a difference between love and comfort - and comfort is what Allie and Roland sought, albeit in different forms.

[obscurejude]

Let's define love. Any takers?

[Brice]

Let's define love. Any takers?

Sure...


undefinable :P

[Letti]

1. I obviously see Roland's relationship with Allie differently to you, Letti.



To my mind he only thought of her out of guilt for the way things ended.

But that Roland wasn't that type of guy who cared about others, was he?

2. I don't understand what you mean by that, can you elaborate :)

1. I see your point clearly, Lisa and you might be right. I can't really prove that I am right I can just tell why I think what I think but no more.

2. I don't say Roland loved Allie but I don't think she was just a body for him, either. Because at that time Roland wasn't that type of guy who cared about others, he didn't give a damn about others' faith (life or death) so the fact that he thought of Allie again and again gives me the idea Allie might have been more to him than a female body... not much more but more.

[Darkthoughts]

Ah ok! I still think that he only thought of her because he maybe felt guilty for not sparing her life after she'd taken care of him - you know, it just made her one more person on his long list of people he'd used to his own selfish ends.

As I said above, I don't disagree with you, Brice or Jude that the type of love we are discussing is not possible - i just don't think it was there for Roland and Allie.

[Letti]

I am not sure at all that Brice or Jude agree with me.

[Jean]

Let's define love. Any takers?
[potential] ability to forever stay together with, and never get tired or bored of, someone*

Clearly not the case of Roland and Allie, highly questionable with Roland and Susan, but possible, I believe, for Roland and Rosalita (as some of my friends seem to feel in that new AllHail's thread)

*ability is the wrong word, I see it, but can't think of any better with my current migraine raging. Wish a native speaker would think of a better one.

[Brice]

potential???


Actually, I must disagree with your definition of love Jean. While true, it is only a type of love.

[Unfound One]

Let's define love. Any takers?

Good luck with that...

[Letti]

Let's define love. Any takers?

Good luck with that...

*laughs*
It was my furst thought as well.

[Jean]

potential???


Actually, I must disagree with your definition of love Jean. While true, it is only a type of love.
it's how I understand it. For other types of love, there are other words.

[Letti]

That's why it's useless to define love. It has too many faces and everyone is sure that his or her love is the true one.
It can be interesting but it can never be done.

[jayson]

That's why it's useless to define love. It has too many faces and everyone is sure that his or her love is the true one.
It can be interesting but it can never be done.

it is a very personal and subjective thing. i think that's why there is so much disagreement when we discuss allie, or susan. some of us see love, some see other things because none of us see love in the same way.

[Letti]

And that's why it's fun. ;)

[jayson]

i agree with that too Letti:thumbsup:

[Letti]

:grouphug:

[Wuducynn]

Okay stop with the concord...its making me sick.

[Letti]

Okay, let's talk about something bloody.
Did you feel sorry for Allie when Roland killed her without any hesitation?

[Brice]

potential???


Actually, I must disagree with your definition of love Jean. While true, it is only a type of love.
it's how I understand it. For other types of love, there are other words.

Yes, such as love, love, and let us not forget love. :P


That's why it's useless to define love. It has too many faces and everyone is sure that his or her love is the true one.
It can be interesting but it can never be done.

I am absolutely unsure. I think this is good.


Okay stop with the concord...its making me sick.

:couple:


Okay, let's talk about something bloody.
Did you feel sorry for Allie when Roland killed her without any hesitation?



Yes, a bit.

[jayson]

Okay, let's talk about something bloody.
Did you feel sorry for Allie when Roland killed her without any hesitation?

well of course i did. i see why he felt he had to, but i still felt bad for the people he killed.

[Jean]

Actually, I must disagree with your definition of love Jean. While true, it is only a type of love.
it's how I understand it. For other types of love, there are other words.

Yes, such as love, love, and let us not forget love. :P
very clever indeed; I am afraid a little too clever for me: I fail to see the point. Is it that we should abandon all attempts to make ourselves understood? But where will we get without at least trying to clarify our notions? Let it be type A, type B, whatever, but let's differ, or we're bound to repeat the same things forever without getting anywhere at all.

[Darkthoughts]

I think I agree with you, Jean. To me love is something that endures. These other types of attractions - they're simply infatuation, affection, flirtation, obsession, comfort, lust - they are branches from the same tree, but they're not love as I define it.

[Mark]

Okay, let's talk about something bloody.
Did you feel sorry for Allie when Roland killed her without any hesitation?

No i didn't, because she asked to be killed, so Roland did it, it's his nature to do so, if someone asked me to kick them in the teeth i'd do it, and wouldn't feel sorry for them, because they asked for it. In WOTC, a certain man addicted to a certain substance (not Eddie) mentions a quote from AA, "Be careful what you pray for, because you just might get it", and this quote can be used here.

[Letti]

I guess you read the revised Gunslinger, am I right?

[Brice]

Actually, I must disagree with your definition of love Jean. While true, it is only a type of love.
it's how I understand it. For other types of love, there are other words.

Yes, such as love, love, and let us not forget love. :P
very clever indeed; I am afraid a little too clever for me: I fail to see the point. Is it that we should abandon all attempts to make ourselves understood? But where will we get without at least trying to clarify our notions? Let it be type A, type B, whatever, but let's differ, or we're bound to repeat the same things forever without getting anywhere at all.


Well, the point is that IMO all love is the same. I see no need to seperate them or label them. Even if it's a short term thing that doesn't last that doesn't mean it wasn't love. In addition (presumably) you love your mother, your father, brothers, sisters, and friends. It is in fact the same feeling/emotion. It just manifests itself in different ways and sometimes degrees. I just see no reason nor need for different labels for what is essentially the same (at least in my mind).

[alinda]

May I take that one step further?
IMO ....Love is not a feeling at all,
but an action!!

[Brice]

agreed


...and often you have no choice in the matter.

[obscurejude]

I'm with Alinda, a declaration of commitment, evidenced by sacrifice.

[Mark]

I guess you read the revised Gunslinger, am I right?

Yeah i did, how is the none revised any different?

[Darkthoughts]

Various differences, such as in the original Allie begs Roland not to kill her.

[Mark]

Ohhhh.... Were can i get hold of a none revised version?

[Jean]

Well, the point is that IMO all love is the same. I see no need to seperate them or label them. Even if it's a short term thing that doesn't last that doesn't mean it wasn't love. In addition (presumably) you love your mother, your father, brothers, sisters, and friends. It is in fact the same feeling/emotion. It just manifests itself in different ways and sometimes degrees. I just see no reason nor need for different labels for what is essentially the same (at least in my mind).
I, though, see a necessity to find different names for something that manifests itself in different ways/degrees, because no communication is possible without it, especially when we start discussing subtle things; especially when we don't even see each other and words are the only thing we have. I believe in words a lot; and I see no other means but words to conduct a successful discussion (even if names or notions are skilfully put down by labeling them as "labels" http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif). There are different names for different people: they are men, women, children; more names come up when what they have in common (humanity) manifests itself in more differents ways; there are different names for different genres of literature or different flowers; as Lisa http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif said,

These other types of attractions - they're simply infatuation, affection, flirtation, obsession, comfort, lust - they are branches from the same tree, but they're not love as I define it.

[Brice]

Ohhhh.... Were can i get hold of a none revised version?


Well, if you're just wanting a reading copy you could easily find a mass marketpaperback or trade on ebay or possibly a used book store.





Well, the point is that IMO all love is the same. I see no need to seperate them or label them. Even if it's a short term thing that doesn't last that doesn't mean it wasn't love. In addition (presumably) you love your mother, your father, brothers, sisters, and friends. It is in fact the same feeling/emotion. It just manifests itself in different ways and sometimes degrees. I just see no reason nor need for different labels for what is essentially the same (at least in my mind).
I, though, see a necessity to find different names for something that manifests itself in different ways/degrees, because no communication is possible without it, especially when we start discussing subtle things; especially when we don't even see each other and words are the only thing we have. I believe in words a lot; and I see no other means but words to conduct a successful discussion (even if names or notions are skilfully put down by labeling them as "labels" http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif). There are different names for different people: they are men, women, children; more names come up when what they have in common (humanity) manifests itself in more differents ways; there are different names for different genres of literature or different flowers; as Lisa http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif said,

These other types of attractions - they're simply infatuation, affection, flirtation, obsession, comfort, lust - they are branches from the same tree, but they're not love as I define it.

I also believe in words alot. The problem is for me love is just love and can take many of the forms or aspects Lisa mentioned. Still it is just love...and it is all love. However, for arguments sake I won't debate the details. Let love be what it is for all. I'll only use my definition if the need arises for me to address something specific. Just know when I speak of it I speak of an allinclusive love without boundaries. Off topic, but I also don't believe in genres.

[Jean]

I didn't say I believed in genres; but yes, it's a whole another story which I hope we could develop later elsewhere http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

We must differ between "love", as a general source of that light, and its various manifestations; in this sense I would agree that love is one and indivisible; but its manifestations are too different to be blanket-covered by one word, so I think we could agree to give some qualifications when we talk about the manifestations.

Closer to the topic (although we're still not off: concept-defining is always important, whatever is discussed): in Allie/Roland case I personally can't see any manifestation of anything that for me comes under the category of "love", whether I understand it as a noumenal or a phenomenal concept.

[Darkthoughts]

Mark - you could probably still order the original edition of The Gunslinger from your local Waterstones or wherever :)