The Waystation Scene *Possible spoilers for the series within*

[Wuducynn]

This is one of my favorite parts of the book and the series, and I'd like to get your feedback on something Walter O'Dim says -

Callahan - "You're cruel!" he bursts out.
Walter's eyes widen, and for a moment he looks deeply hurt. This may be absurd, but Callahan is looking into the man's deep eyes and feels sure the emotion is nonetheless genuine. And the surety robs him of any last hope that all this might be a dream, or a final brilliant interval before true death. In dreams-his, at least, the bad guys, the scary guys, never have complex emotions.
"I am what ka and the King and the Tower have made me. We all are. We're caught."

Very interesting insight into Walter and into how he views things. Thoughts?

[Ka-tet]

Im finding it hard to really understand what walter is getting at in this scene, i always found it very confuising.

Shed some light on it sai?

[Mist_on_the_Water]

I suppose he might be saying soemthing like he's not a stereotype, he's real life. He is what he is and he's what he was made to be by the tower and by ka. He's saying that everything that happens is meant to and that "We're caught", as in caught in the net that is ka, or destiny. everything happens for a reason and it happens no matter what we do. we cannot avoid it.

it's like this movie i saw called the Time Machine (great movie). In the beginning a man is so in love with this girl and he takes her skating. A man robs them and kills her. he builds a time machine and goes back and tries to save her. He brings her to a flower sop instead of the skating pond and leaves her across the street while he goes to buy her some roses. He hears a screeching of tires and turns around to find her dead, hit by a car, at the same moment the man killed her in the previous scenario. this happens a few times and she is always killed at the same moment.

what I'm getting at is that he tried to change what was meant to happen and couldnt. No matter what, she was meant to die, and no matter what, she died.

[obscurejude]

Dualisms permeate the DT series. There is always a little good in the evil characters and a little evil in the good ones- the ying and yang if you kennit. Its what makes King's villains so effective, they aren't that far removed from tendencies we ourselves have. We have gone over and over in other threads about the complexities of his villains, but this is my take. Walter is definitely my favorite incarnation or twin (whatever the fuck he is Monte) of Flagg. Ka itself, is dualistic, at least in my view as I have expressed elsewhere. The Dark Tower is such an effective cosmological symbol for this reason. Great quote CK.

[Letti]

You won't believe this Matthew but I was planning to open absolutely the same thread with that quote of Walter but I didn't know how to start it.

I think it's a very good and interesting moment of Walter but it's weak as well... he says that it is not his responsibility it wasn't his choice... he is just a victim in fact. It's interesting to see that he thinks this way because I am sure most of the people think the same way about their lives and faults they have done but I cannot agree.
I am sure if someone has a damn hard life it's even much harder to find or to go on the right path but it's not impossible at all. I know people with nightmarish childhoods and they could become good people.

Sorry Walter, I am not buying this but I can understand you.

[jayson]

Dualisms permeate the DT series. There is always a little good in the evil characters and a little evil in the good ones- the ying and yang if you kennit. ... Ka itself, is dualistic, at least in my view as I have expressed elsewhere. The Dark Tower is such an effective cosmological symbol for this reason. Great quote CK.

thanks Ryan, now I don't have to type as much as you put it very close to how I would have. Dualism permeates everything.

[Wuducynn]

I think it's a very good and interesting moment of Walter but it's weak as well... he says it is not his responsibility it wasn't his choice... he is just a victim in fact. It's interesting to see that he thinks this way because I am sure most of the people think the same way about their lives and faults they have done but I cannot agree.
I am sure if someone has a damn hard life it's even much harder to find or to go on the right path but it's not impossible at all. I know people with nightmarish childhoods and they could become good people.

Sorry Walter, I am not buying this but I can understand you.

Very interesting perspective on this quote of Walter's Letti.. :harrier:

[Wuducynn]

Dualisms permeate the DT series. There is always a little good in the evil characters and a little evil in the good ones- the ying and yang if you kennit. Its what makes King's villains so effective, they aren't that far removed from tendencies we ourselves have.

Also, some very good points. Especially about the "dualism".

[Brainslinger]

The fact he felt guilt and reacts that way to Callahan's accusation is interesting, and definitely humanizes him somewhat, and indeed show he has some good in him. Yet ironically, by blaming ka, and the King (and I'm not clear here if he meant the Crimson King or The Author of whom he was certainly aware) he is making excuses for himself, as Letti said. Certainly a negative trait, yet again a very human one.

On reading the blurb concerning the Last book The Dark Tower, particularly the bit stating something along the lines Roland and his Ka-tet would find an ally in an unexpected source, it occurred to me that Walter might be that person.

He seemed to have provided aid in earlier scenes already, and I wondered if he would end up taking a Gollum type role, i.e. an ally, but one with a knife ready to plunge into Roland's back. I suppose it is a good thing that King didn't take it down that route, particularly as it's been done before, but I can't help think it would have been more satisfying than what we did get.

[Wuducynn]

The fact he felt guilt and reacts that way to Callahan's accusation is interesting, and definitely humanizes him somewhat, and indeed show he has some good in him. Yet ironically, by blaming ka, and the King (and I'm not clear here if he meant the Crimson King or The Author of whom he was certainly aware) he is making excuses for himself, as Letti said. Certainly a negative trait, yet again a very human one.



It seems clear to me he is meaning The Crimson King. Usually Stephen King is described as 'King' not as 'The King'. I do agree it humanizes him.
The whole blaming "ka, the King and the Tower" for everyone being caught, I think is definitely him not wanting to take ownership for his actions but also a real belief that nothing he can do can change anything.

[Letti]

And you know what? I think it was a confession. Walter believes in Gan even if the doesn't serve him. In fact Callahan is a priest. Walted wanted to say out these things loudly for long and then he could at last. He could get rid of it. He could share it.
He might have stepped on the dark path because he couldn't forgive Gan.
Now he might think Gan can't forgive him. There is neither return no hope.

Okay, I have stopped I may have gone too far. :)

[obscurejude]

Not too far Letti. That was a beautiful post. Thank you so much for that. :thumbsup: It already made my day (its 8:30 in the morning where I live). :)

[Letti]

Thank you. :blush:

[obscurejude]

Thank you ma'am. :)

[ManOfWesternesse]

Good thread.
I found it quite disturbing that Walter even tried to 'justify' himself to Callahan like that. Why does he give a damn that Callahan thinks him 'cruel'? Why dos he not revel in that cruelty? (... well, maybe he does? but why try to justify it - or deflect it from himself?)

[Wuducynn]

And you know what? I think it was a confession. Walter believes in Gan even if the doesn't serve him. In fact Callahan is a priest. Walted wanted to say out these things loudly for long and then he could at last. He could get rid of it. He could share it.
He might have stepped on the dark path because he couldn't forgive Gan.
Now he might think Gan can't forgive him. There is neither return no hope.

Okay, I have stopped I may have gone too far. :)

I don't agree, Letti. I think he was surprised by Callahan into telling him but I don't take it anywhere near as far as a confession. I don't see any evidence throughout the series that we could make a judgement one way or the other about Walter and forgiveness or lack thereof from Gan.
To me this is a window into his belief that he isn't in control of his actions entirely, and like you said there is some self-justifications for his actions in his mind. Blaming it on higher forces etc.

[Letti]

It's not a judgement and you are right there is no proof it was just my opinion. No more.

[Wuducynn]

Of course its an opinion, most of this is afterall. What I'm saying is I don't see any evidence throughout the series to back up your opinion, about this scene being a confession involving Walter not being able to forgive Gan. So is this just a feeling of yours that you were going by, I'm assuming?

[obscurejude]

What resonated with me in Letti's post is exactly what CK is disputing. Its interesting that Los nabbed Walter when he was young and vulnerable after having been raped as a young teen. I'm sure Walter has resentments toward Gan, who didn't reach out to him. Letti's post offers more of a motive for Walter's desire to gain the tower than anything else I have read.

[Wuducynn]

What resonated with me in Letti's post is exactly what CK is disputing. Its interesting that Los nabbed Walter when he was young and vulnerable after having been raped as a young teen. I'm sure Walter has resentment's toward Gan, who didn't reach out to him. Letti's post offers more of a motive for Walter's desire to gain the tower than anything else I have read.

Its definitely an intriguing supposition alright, if there was some real evidence pointing to unforgivness of Gan etc. Walter does say he started serving the Crimson King fairly late in his life...so it wasn't when he was young.

[obscurejude]

No, Mathew, I think he says something about how the CK first sent him dreams when he was young. He was older when he sold his soul, but the seeds were planted when he was a youth.

[jayson]

Walter does say he started serving the Crimson King fairly late in his life...so it wasn't when he was young.

this is what i thought as well. Walter may have turned his mind towards selfishness and even "evil" after he was abused as a child, but that is different than outright service to the Crimson King.

[obscurejude]

Different than outright service, agreed, but King's characters are made, not born.

:looks for reference:

[Wuducynn]

Los' came to him in dreams when he was a youth, but his actual service was a late thing. Thats from what I understand.

[obscurejude]

I think its evidence that might suggest what Letti posted. When I read the passage about the dreams, and then about the rape, Letti's post is almost verbatim what I was thinking. I'm just saying that I the fact that the passage quoted at the beginning of this thread is even more significant because it is in the revised edition. King understood Walter as a character more and his statement to Callahan is very evident of that. I immediately thought of the rape scene and the dreams when I read that passage for the first time. Letti was right on when she brought out the significance of the Callahan being a priest.

I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).

[jayson]

I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).

that's an interesting take on it, though i don't see Gan as good or evil, but transcendent of good and evil. Gan is the World Axis - in his embodiment as the Tower - and thus stands at the center of the pairs of polar opposites [good and evil being among the categories]. Los is clearly representative of evil, no question about that, but I'm unsure whether I would agree that Gan represents "good." Still, you make an intriguing case.

[Wuducynn]

I'm just saying that I the fact that the passage quoted at the beginning of this thread is even more significant because it is in the revised edition.

The passage at the beginning of this thread I quoted is from Wolves of the Calla. There is no revision to that book, that I know of.

[Wuducynn]

I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).

This is an interesting perspective, although like Jayson said, I don't view as Gan as supposed to be "good" or "evil".

[Wuducynn]

I still don't see my quote from the book as a confession, consious or otherwise, to Callahan. But as a surprise insight into Walter and into how he views the justification of his actions.

[obscurejude]

:lol: My bad Mathew... I'm really tired. Still, I stand by my point. God, I'm really tired- severe bout of insomnia the last week. By placing Callahan in the context of the first novel was where I was coming from, but my wires got crossed.*

*Plus, I'm an idiot.

[Wuducynn]

:lol: My bad Mathew... I'm really tired. Still, I stand by my point. God, I'm really tired- severe bout of insomnia the last week. By placing Callahan in the context of the first novel was where I was coming from, but my wires got crossed.*

No problem, maybe you should have a "daycap", some whiskey or rum, and hit the hay?



*Plus, I'm an idiot.

Bullshit. I wouldn't bother chatting with you if you were in an idiot. Also, you're a Dark Tower fan and that alone says you're smart.

[obscurejude]

I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).

that's an interesting take on it, though i don't see Gan as good or evil, but transcendent of good and evil. Gan is the World Axis - in his embodiment as the Tower - and thus stands at the center of the pairs of polar opposites [good and evil being among the categories]. Los is clearly representative of evil, no question about that, but I'm unsure whether I would agree that Gan represents "good." Still, you make an intriguing case.

Jayson, you know that we essentially agree about Gan's nature. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "at times." Because of these dualistic themes, I think its hard to see Roland as good all the time or Walter as evil all of the time. It really fits for me, they are both what Ka has made them, and Ka is as dualistic as the day is long.

They are connected in interesting ways (Roland and Walter). Remember when Roland knew that Walter was dead because he stopped seeing him in his dreams...

[obscurejude]

I still don't see my quote from the book as a confession, consious or otherwise, to Callahan. But as a surprise insight into Walter and into how he views the justification of his actions.

Maybe not in the traditional sense, but Walter seems to regard Callahan with a respect that is similar to how he responds to Roland. I think this might be because he recognizes him as an agent of the white.

[jayson]

Jayson, you know that we essentially agree about Gan's nature. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "at times." Because of these dualistic themes, I think its hard to see Roland as good all the time or Walter as evil all of the time. It really fits for me, they are both what Ka has made them, and Ka is as dualistic as the day is long.

They are connected in interesting ways (Roland and Walter). Remember when Roland knew that Walter was dead because he stopped seeing him in his dreams...

I do agree in principle with what you are saying about Roland and Walter. Neither is 100% good or 100% evil, nor could either succeed in their individual quests if they were.

It's the question of Los and Gan as opposing forces that I am not so sure about. One is clearly within the category of evil, while I think the other is beyond all categories of description. Also, while I do think Los has a direct influence on Walter, it's hard to determine if it is actually Gan influencing Roland, or if this is how Roland interprets it, or what. Clearly Gan exists [there is in fact a Tower], but whether or not he actively participates in the world within space and time [of which he is the embodiment] is a matter for further discussion. I'm not altogether sure I've seen anything that definitively suggests Gan takes an active role within the world after its creation from his navel. Even King's whole ves-ka-Gan stuff can be viewed as a writer coming up with a metaphor for that part of his creative process that exceded his capability to understand.

Or maybe I'm just tired too. :)

[obscurejude]

Its confusing Jayson. :panic: I'm really just making suggestions.

I think Gan taking an active role through the Ves Ka makes more sense than anything else so far, but all of our theories are works in progress.

[obscurejude]

Also, you know one of my first posts had to do with Red vs White creating tension within the text because characters are presented clearly as antagonists or protagonists at times but the metaphysics suggest other wise. This problem has become more difficult for me, not easier, and that was over a thousand posts ago.

[jayson]

...This problem has become more difficult for me, not easier, and that was over a thousand posts ago.

I think that's what I love most about DT, is that the deeper we explore it, the greater the mystery becomes. I hate easy answers. :)

[obscurejude]

That's the reason I don't struggle with the series being over, you guys keep it so alive for me. :thumbsup:

[Letti]

Of course its an opinion, most of this is afterall. What I'm saying is I don't see any evidence throughout the series to back up your opinion, about this scene being a confession involving Walter not being able to forgive Gan. So is this just a feeling of yours that you were going by, I'm assuming?

I don't think that I will be able to give you any evidence but no, it's not just a feeling. I mean I will explain why these thoughts came to my mind with details a bit later but still they won't be evidences.

[Wuducynn]

I don't think that I will be able to give you any evidence but no, it's not just a feeling. I mean I will explain why these thoughts came to my mind with details a bit later but still they won't be evidences.

I'm not quite sure I'm getting you here, but okay.

[Letti]

Oh, sorry. To sum up I will write down why I think this way.

[Wuducynn]

I wish we could talk about it in person. It would be so much nicer. :harrier:

[CyberGhostface]

***SPOILERS for the entire series***




I was just considering making a topic about this very scene. Its a good thing I saw saw this one, because in addition to the usual sarcasm of "Oh look, Cyber made another Walter topic" it would have been embarrassing to see it get merged.

Anyway, the scene with Walter and Callahan is probably one of my favorite scenes in the book and in the series as a whole, mainly because it shows that there's more to Walter than meets the eye.

I know, looking hurt for a couple of seconds doesn't absolve him of his sins (obviously) but at the same time, one wouldn't expect the Crimson King showing complex emotion in similar scenes. I mean, if you take the comics as canon (and there's no reason why you shouldn't as King's authorizing them and is fully involved) you know that the Crimson King was born from a demon with the sole purpose of bringing down the Tower. Walter, on the other hand, was born a farmboy, ran away and got raped when he was only thirteen or fourteen years old. He's a much more human character.

I guess its also frustrating as a scene in context with the rest of the series, as it ultimately leads to nothing at all. ("Here he goes again," says the peanut gallery) Just looking at the series now, there was so much untapped potential with the character. King knocked off one of his best villains in exchange for some of his weakest.

After I read the scene with Callahan, I was sure King was planning something big for the character. I was wrong, obviously. Overall, I really think it left a permanent taint on the series for me and only made the rest of the flaws in DT7 even more apparent.

Anyway, what did the scene signify? I'm really not sure, mainly because there's not much to supplement it. And King has said that Flagg knows he's evil and enjoys it, so why would he be hurt if he's called cruel? Again, so many questions, and so few answers... I'm not expecting his entire lifestory, but there's still so much left to be told.

[Letti]

Very good question CGF. Why doesn't he like to be told cruel? I keep thinking about it. Is it possible that Callahan was wrong and he misunderstood it?

[Whitey Appleseed]

Callahan seems to be the one person to get under Walter's skin, hey? Later on the same page he suggests that Roland is above ka and "Walter recoils, as if struck." Calls Callahan a false priest, spits the words, then they get into that argument about God and the top of the DT. I'm trying to think of a scene that may or may not be a kind of doubling of this one, since it seems to happen so often, usually keystone scenes.

Interesting is Callahan's response to Walter talking about the Tower:

"Although Callahan is not entirely sure what the man is talking about, his response if quick and sure." Different than his confrontation with Barlow? Can't imagine Barlow being taken back is Callahan called him cruel. Kinda echoes what Andy said to Eddie, "You're a bad man!" Maybe that's the doubling.

[CyberGhostface]

Anyone watch Lost? I really get a Ben/Locke vibe from Walter and Callahan. I'd love to see the two interact with each other again.

[mtdman]

I don't think Walter is justifying anything to Callahan. And I think it is very inline with what he says in the palaver with Roland in The Gunslinger. Walter knows that he plays a part in the battle for the tower, good v evil, and that he has been cast in this part by Ka, the tower, Gan, God, whoever. I think that he relishes this, enjoys playing his part, and doesn't take it very seriously. He's a psychopath, who doesn't care about people or the players in the battle between him and Roland, good v evil, for the tower. It's all a game to him. He doesn't see it as cruel, he sees it as his part to play and he's going to play it and play it well. IMO, he and Roland aren't that far off. The difference is, Roland doesn't see it as a game, and is singly fixed on the tower. Yet Roland doesn't care about the pieces he has to move to get to the tower either, and that's his problem and his curse. Walter, whether it's because his wizardry or power or whatever, understands its a bigger game and doesn't care about the pieces. It's all a joke to him. Roland is fixed on the tower like a razor beam, doesn't understand his part in what's going on, and doesn't see the bigger picture. And because that he doesn't care for the pieces he moves. And that's the whole point, for Roland to come to see that the pieces are people and that he, as an agent for the white, has to gain his objective without being a psychopath that doesn't love or care about those who help him on his path.

That's my 2 cents.

[Random321321]

I don't like the way King tells us what to think with the line about "complex emotions". Being hurt by an insult is not a complex emotion, and even if it were, leave it to the reader to draw a conclusion like that, don't just state it.

[Brainslinger]

It wasn't an insult that hurt Walter, it was the fact he was told he was cruel. A cruel man disliking the fact someone considers him cruel. That suggests a sense of humanity, even conscience (or if not conscience something close to it). Therein lies that sense of complexity; Walter isn't quite the one dimensional villain 'bhuah ha ha' bad guy.

As for King telling the reader what to think, I didn't really see it that way. In context, it's Callahan that has these thoughts, bringing home the fact that what he is experiencing is no dream.

[unclelouie]

I think he was just talking smack.... plus he was in a hurry... he was going to have to haul ass to catch back up with Roland and Jake..