PDA

View Full Version : The Kas-ka Gan's Trance *spoilers*



Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 03:16 PM
When Roland mesmerized King some amazing insights were found. What did you think about them? How did the things he said change your perceptions of things going on, or did they not?

obscurejude
03-26-2008, 06:43 PM
Which time CK. At the house or when he got hit by the van?

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 08:21 PM
At his house.

Wuducynn
03-27-2008, 06:10 PM
Roland smiled "Ka is a wheel. You've been turning on it under different names for a long time. Cuthbert for one, it seems."
This is one of the things Roland says after hearing about how Eddie and Cuthbert came to King when he was little and saved him. Very interesting indeed.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 06:13 PM
It is interesting but my head is spinning bc of previous conversations today. I'm going to keep thinking about it, mayhap something will come tonight.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 06:18 PM
That particular scene is very good but it will lead me to start talking about another topic and I don't want to "twinner/twin/reincarnation" pollute your thread.

Is there anything else about the trance you were interested in, CK? :)

Wuducynn
03-27-2008, 06:21 PM
You should know me well enough by now Greg that I'm ALL ABOUT POLLUTION...how about you? What about Los trying to turn King into a vampire by biting him with the spiders in the dead chickens?

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 06:24 PM
How can I forget, Matthew? :lol:

I wonder how many times Los tried to corrupt King in some way? It would be super-cool to learn more of his attempts to get at King. Do you think those spiders were Mini-Los' or were they The Doctors? Or just plain spiders?

Wuducynn
03-27-2008, 06:27 PM
I wonder how many times Los tried to corrupt King in some way? It would be super-cool to learn more of his attempts to get at King. Do you think those spiders were Mini-Los' or were they The Doctors? Or just plain spiders?

Definitely not plain spiders, probably invested with the power of the CK I'm guessing. Los working through them.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 06:29 PM
Yeah, Los probably ceased to exist bodily a long time before King came along. Maybe he entered regular spiders somehow?

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 06:30 PM
Why do you say jude? Am I missing something or didn't Los have a body in DT7? :unsure:

Wuducynn
03-27-2008, 06:32 PM
Yeah, Los probably ceased to exist bodily a long time before King came along. Maybe he entered regular spiders somehow?

??

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 06:32 PM
That was the whole impetus behind Mia, as I understand it. Los committed suicide right? The one on the Tower isn't fully representative, but I'm not sure how- in fact it might just be his eyes. Mia joined some metaphysical part of Los with Roland's seed when she became embodied.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Hmm, this is not how I read and understood it dude.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 06:40 PM
Okay, how is Los Mordred's father?

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 06:43 PM
I thought he simply "gave up his seed" and it mixed with Roland's. Kinda gross, I guess, but that's what I thought happened. :lol:

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 06:45 PM
Maybe I was thinking about it too deep, but I could've sworn that Mia implied something a little different. Let me think about it. I brought it up some other time in a thread... I'm going to try and look it up. There was a reference in Song about the CK not existing in bodily form after he went crazy and killed himself.

Wuducynn
04-05-2008, 06:36 AM
Maybe I was thinking about it too deep, but I could've sworn that Mia implied something a little different. Let me think about it. I brought it up some other time in a thread... I'm going to try and look it up. There was a reference in Song about the CK not existing in bodily form after he went crazy and killed himself.

Did you find this reference, OJ? Its a little OT of the thread, but I'm still interested, because I don't remember this either.

obscurejude
04-05-2008, 07:52 AM
I've been busy CK, let me see what I can do. I won't forget.

Mark
04-06-2008, 05:22 AM
Jude, i know what you mean about Los not being whole and such, didn't he commit suicide by
swallowing a spoon?
Anyway, i'm pretty sure that Mia was created, then a part of Los was fused with her, so that's how i think he was the "Red daddy".

Wuducynn
04-10-2008, 06:21 AM
Bumping this baby for The Unfound One. ;)

Unfound One
04-10-2008, 04:16 PM
Why thank you ever so much Matthew, may I call you Matthew?
Gimme some time to read through and collect my thoughts.

Wuducynn
04-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Of course you may call me Matthew, and no problem. :harrier:

Unfound One
04-10-2008, 04:51 PM
Alright, I'm attempting to bring us back on topic.
And I'm gonna type out a big quote again. Sigh. :rolleyes:

"I'm Gan, or possessed by Gan, I don't know which, maybe there's no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But it's not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but it's not, ka it never satisfied, greedy old ka, that's what she said, isn't it? What Susan Delgado said before you killed her, or I killed her, or Gan killed her. 'Greedy old ka, how I hate it.' Regardless of who killed her, I made her say that, I, for I hate it, so I do. I buck against ka's goad, and will until the day I go into the clearing at the end of the path."
Roland sat at the table, white at the sound of Susan's name.
"And still ka comes to me, comes from me, I translate it, am made to translate it, ka flows out of my navel like a ribbon. I am not ka, I am not the ribbon, it's just what comes through me and I hate it I hate it!"

So.
Sai King is a servant to ka like everybody else is. Interesting.
He hates it, and even adds his opinion to the story coming through him, such as putting his opinion in the words of Susan Delgado.
He says later on the page that he doesn't want to be Gan, and since he was able to turn away from Dis he should be able to turn from Gan as well.

I feel like some of the stuff from the Keystone thread needs to be brought in here. Damn. And I'm not even sure where I'm going with this.

Somebody take the fuckin' feather. :lol:

Unfound One
04-10-2008, 05:01 PM
Wait a second, hold up - here's something else interesting I just caught that I've aparently read over a couple times now...

Stephen King is telekinetic?
When he gets agitated during the trance he raises his hand and stuff on the couter starts to float. Then he flings a knife across the room where it sticks in the wall.

If this is addressed ever again I don't remember it, though keep in mind that I read DTVII this summer in 2 days and the level of details I remember is low...

EDIT - And if you finish the scene, nobody removes the knife. Sai King's in for a surprise when he wakes up from his "nap" :lol:

Wuducynn
04-10-2008, 05:11 PM
"I'm Gan, or possessed by Gan, I don't know which, maybe there's no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But it's not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but it's not, ka it never satisfied, greedy old ka, that's what she said, isn't it? What Susan Delgado said before you killed her, or I killed her, or Gan killed her. 'Greedy old ka, how I hate it.' Regardless of who killed her, I made her say that, I, for I hate it, so I do. I buck against ka's goad, and will until the day I go into the clearing at the end of the path."
Roland sat at the table, white at the sound of Susan's name.
"And still ka comes to me, comes from me, I translate it, am made to translate it, ka flows out of my navel like a ribbon. I am not ka, I am not the ribbon, it's just what comes through me and I hate it I hate it!"

So.
Sai King is a servant to ka like everybody else is. Interesting.
He hates it, and even adds his opinion to the story coming through him, such as putting his opinion in the words of Susan Delgado.
He says later on the page that he doesn't want to be Gan, and since he was able to turn away from Dis he should be able to turn from Gan as well.

I feel like some of the stuff from the Keystone thread needs to be brought in here. Damn. And I'm not even sure where I'm going with this.

Somebody take the fuckin' feather. :lol:

Awesome quote! :thumbsup:
Its a very interesting part of the trance because he seems to be saying that ka is Gan's song.

LadyHitchhiker
04-20-2008, 01:29 PM
This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

Wuducynn
04-20-2008, 01:51 PM
This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.


Thanks. Why don't you give us some feedback on what you think?

LadyHitchhiker
04-20-2008, 01:57 PM
Well my feedback is this. If we are to follow the book in how I think it was intended, Ka is a wheel. And all is because of Ka. Ka is an instrument of Gan, so Stephen King and everyone else is an instrument of Ka and of Gan. So basically Stephen King is doing Gan's work by writing this story. And Gan must be the ruler of ka... Whether Gan really exists or not is rather irrelevant because the greater force is that of Ka.

Both the powers of Anti-Ka and Ka are a form of Yin and Yang and have to work together in a sort of harmony in order to make the world work correctly. From my understanding, Anti-Ka has grown too strong and is tearing down the beams to all worlds so Stephen King is brought into the picture to sort of level the playing field, but Stephen King doesn't even really realize he's doing this until he is put into a trance. He thinks he is just an author making a quick buck. he doesn't realize that everything he does, makes a difference.

Like Bastian in The Neverending Story.

LadyHitchhiker
04-20-2008, 01:57 PM
His subconscious understands his role, but his consciousness is not fully aware.

Wuducynn
04-21-2008, 05:46 AM
So basically Stephen King is doing Gan's work by writing this story. This definitely appears to be true from his trance.



And Gan must be the ruler of ka... Whether Gan really exists or not is rather irrelevant because the greater force is that of Ka.


Gan must be the ruler of ka yet ka is a greater force? This confuses me, could you explain where you're coming from and how what happens in his trance shows it?

LadyHitchhiker
04-21-2008, 03:58 PM
Most people believe in God. Well just because someone believes in it does not mean it's true. I believe in God but that's not part of the argument. What my argument is just because someone believes in Gan, doesn't mean he exists or maybe that he exists anymore. Maybe Gan has passed on to the clearing or is on vacation or something, and yet the wheels he has set into motion, this machine of life, is still active.

Point being that Ka is still powerful, and is now it's own force to be reckoned with, and perhaps has no intervention from Gan.

On the other hand Gan could very conceivably just be a foreign or different machinery or person who made such machinery that was invented to maintain the alternate universes' structural integrity. It may have held for a while, and such devices as the wizard's glass were left behind to inspire others to follow the quest in order to continue to maintain the beams.

Perhaps even there was a "tear" accidentally created in a place in space or time that made it so it was easier for these doors to be created. Overuse of doors to other places caused even more damage to the space-time continuum's fabric until all worlds were in danger of collapsing into each other or simply ceasing to be.

The Wizard's glass could be a promise left behind by Gan or the Old Ones - or whoever you want to call responsible for all the machinery - to ensure that someone would always be trying to fix this problem.

We see evidence of Ka, but not neccessarily anything that I see as what could be the will and/or work of Gan until the very end of 7...

But these are just some ideas... I will work on explaining more later.

Wuducynn
04-25-2008, 04:06 PM
Most people believe in God. Well just because someone believes in it does not mean it's true. I believe in God but that's not part of the argument. What my argument is just because someone believes in Gan, doesn't mean he exists or maybe that he exists anymore. Maybe Gan has passed on to the clearing or is on vacation or something, and yet the wheels he has set into motion, this machine of life, is still active.

Well there is plenty of evidence to show that Gan IS the multi-verse itself, so if it had passed into the clearing, then that meant the Crimson King had won.



Point being that Ka is still powerful, and is now it's own force to be reckoned with, and perhaps has no intervention from Gan.

Okay I'm wanting to keep this chat in the context of King's trance, where are you getting that there is no intervention from Gan, from his trance?



We see evidence of Ka, but not neccessarily anything that I see as what could be the will and/or work of Gan until the very end of 7...

You don't see the things that King says when he's mesmerized by Roland as evidence of Gan's will at work?



But these are just some ideas... I will work on explaining more later.

Looking forward to it. :harrier:

LadyHitchhiker
04-26-2008, 01:43 PM
Well I think I said more to make more questions than I made more answers...

*I* think that Gan was the instrument of Stephen King's visions but I can see the other side that perhaps there is enough evidence that Gan doesn't exist and therefore we have to look for another reasoning for why the trance occurred...

Wuducynn
04-28-2008, 05:57 AM
*I* think that Gan was the instrument of Stephen King's visions but I can see the other side that perhaps there is enough evidence that Gan doesn't exist and therefore we have to look for another reasoning for why the trance occurred...


I'm not sure where you're coming up with this "Gan doesn't exist" as part of King's trance? What I'm wondering is why you feel Gan was an instrument of King and not the other way around?

Wuducynn
04-28-2008, 06:05 AM
I think for the sake of this chat, we need to start from the understanding that within the Dark Tower Series (and I'm including the graphic novels) there is a being called Gan and from all evidence it is the multi-verse itself as a living entity.
So lets just go from there. Tell me why you feel that Gan was the instrument in the trance and not King? Its an interesting perspective because, from what King says while in the trance, that he is the "kas-ka Gan" meaning "Singer or Prophet of Gan". It doesn't sound like Gan is the one being the instrument there.

obscurejude
04-28-2008, 06:27 AM
Mathew, I think the point might be that they're not mutually exclusive. King is a prophet only to the extent that he sings Gan's song. Of course, by the same logic, it means that King is Gan. Sort of when the pope is officially ex cathedra, only at that point are his words liturgical law. The bible also espouses an open plenary view of inspiration regarding itself, "All scripture is inspired by God..." (2 Timothy 3:16). Inspired is from the Greek word theopneusatos (theos- God, pneuma- spirit/wind) The idea is that scripture is the breath of God and relevant to our discussion, there remains a degree of human agency. This is how I think of King within the novel.

Jean
04-28-2008, 06:37 AM
I think I completely agree with the post above.

obscurejude
04-28-2008, 06:45 AM
:) You made my week Jean.

Wuducynn
04-28-2008, 06:49 AM
Mathew, I think the point might be that they're not mutually exclusive. King is a prophet only to the extent that he sings Gan's song. Of course, by the same logic, it means that King is Gan. Sort of when the pope is officially ex cathedra, only at that point are his words liturgical law. The bible also espouses an open plenary view of inspiration regarding itself, "All scripture is inspired by God..." (2 Timothy 3:16). Inspired is from the Greek word theopneusatos (theos- God, pneuma- spirit/wind) The idea is that scripture is the breath of God and relevant to our discussion, there remains a degree of human agency. This is how I think of King within the novel.

I see what you're saying, while I think the evidence points to that King is not one and the same as Gan, but someone that Gan works through. What I'm wondering is where is the evidence that Gan is being the instrument of King, within the trance that Liz mentioned above.

obscurejude
04-28-2008, 07:08 AM
That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.

obscurejude
04-28-2008, 07:10 AM
I think what Liz might be dealing with is the notion that God might be dead, think of the vision of Maturin in IT. No one wants to talk about why Roland might be afraid that Gan is dead, but I think King might be evidence that Gan is alive and kicking and even providential- active in sustaining the world in which he created.

Wuducynn
04-28-2008, 07:10 AM
That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.


I really like this OJ. You're really onto something here. Good call.

Wuducynn
04-28-2008, 07:15 AM
I think what Liz might be dealing with is the notion that God might be dead, think of the vision of Maturin in IT. No one wants to talk about why Roland might be afraid that Gan is dead, but I think King might be evidence that Gan is alive and kicking and even providential- active in sustaining the world in which he created.

King and The Rose, definitely. One thing I love about the trance scene is how it opens up a lot of possibilities and yet brings up more questions. We see how the Ram Abbalah has worked since King was a kid and I assume chosen (or born) by Gan for his role as a kas-ka, to try and either kill him or turn him into a vampire and become his kas-ka. There's just so much going on in that scene that I've gone back and read it a bunch of times.

obscurejude
04-28-2008, 07:18 AM
That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.


I really like this OJ. You're really onto something here. Good call.

Thanks, a compliment from you is a rare occasion and goes a long way.

Brainslinger
04-29-2008, 07:02 PM
King being an extension of Gan suggests he is part of Gan, and therefore Gan... which I don't think is true. Unless of course you simply mean he is the mouthpiece of Gan which I agree with, as that's essentially what a kas-ka or prophet is.

As for the notion that Gan is dead, well... I won't spoil it here... but read through to the end of Dark Tower 7 and you should get the answer to that yes or no. (Or maybe I should say "yay or nay" as we speaketh of spiritual things.)

Corny mode off.

Wuducynn
04-29-2008, 07:31 PM
Well, I would think its possible to be connected with Gan and a part of it in some way, yet not wholely Gan. If you catch my drift.

obscurejude
04-30-2008, 06:18 AM
Thanks Brainslinger, it really would help if I'd read all the books. Thank you for the suggestion.:thumbsup:

Wuducynn
04-30-2008, 06:27 AM
:|

Wuducynn
04-30-2008, 06:37 AM
it really would help if I'd read all the books.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m168/Los_The_Red/th359075f9.gif

Unfound One
04-30-2008, 08:21 AM
:o :lol:

MonteGss
04-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Thanks Brainslinger, it really would help if I'd read all the books. Thank you for the suggestion.:thumbsup:

:lol:

LadyHitchhiker
04-30-2008, 03:20 PM
That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.


I really like this OJ. You're really onto something here. Good call.
As in King is the Holy spirit, or Jesus whichever one you want to see it as and Roland is the Holy spirit or Jesus???

Hmmmmm.... I can't even explain in words how much I love the depth of this thread.

LadyHitchhiker
04-30-2008, 03:26 PM
if Gan is dead, then there is no direction, just an endless cycle of Roland trying to fix the beams, since it is still the will of Gan, and he is still driven by the forces that are still left in motion. But I'd like to assume that Gan does exist and point out that King is utilizing Gan just as much as Gan is utilizing King... They could not function without each other....

Or Gan would have to find another person to write the story.... But would it be right?

If I'm going to go with my Neverending Story idea, even in that book (and the second movie as an example) there is evidence that not just ANYONE can do the job. There is plenty of evidence that in the wrong place, with the wrong motives, they will not succeed with their quest.

I know they're not written by the same people. I know it's not the same story, but I see a lot of parallels that give me more ideas about the Dark Tower.

Brainslinger
05-05-2008, 06:45 PM
Thanks Brainslinger, it really would help if I'd read all the books. Thank you for the suggestion.:thumbsup:

I didn't mean my comment in a sarcastic or biting tone. Since this is the Song of Susannah section it was quite possible you hadn't gotten to Dark Tower 7 yet, and the question of Gan's existence was answered. (Or at least strongly suggested.)

obscurejude
05-06-2008, 04:41 AM
Brainslinger, we've talked at length about Roland's fear of Gan's death in other threads. That's where I was coming from in my comment. Anyways, too tired to delve into that right now.

Its all good, text is a very insufficient medium in regards to tone. Its good to have you around here. :couple: Check out the threads on Gan, we'd be interested in your thoughts, "Roland, enemy of the White?" and "Keystone World." There's some others too, but I can't think of them right now because of so much overlap.

:asks help in naming threads:

Unfound One
05-06-2008, 12:34 PM
Here's (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2504) another really good one called Roland and his relationship with Gan.

John_and_Yoko
05-09-2008, 08:57 PM
When Roland mesmerized King some amazing insights were found. What did you think about them? How did the things he said change your perceptions of things going on, or did they not?

Maybe I'm just letting my mind wander, but it kind of gave an explanation, fictional or otherwise, for Stephen King's whole life and career. Why he's most known for his horror fiction, his substance abuse, and how The Dark Tower is the centerpiece for his whole body of work....

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I loved that, and didn't think there was enough of it....

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 11:12 PM
Maybe I'm just letting my mind wander, but it kind of gave an explanation, fictional or otherwise, for Stephen King's whole life and career. Why he's most known for his horror fiction, his substance abuse, and how The Dark Tower is the centerpiece for his whole body of work....

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I loved that, and didn't think there was enough of it....

It does give us some insight personally. I seem to remember him saying that part of it is true, and part of it made up.

Unfound One
05-09-2008, 11:13 PM
Fuckin' yeah! I read all those trance scenes (not to mention the journal entries in the back of SOS - especially those) and WANT them to be real.
No, more like I actually believe they're all real.
Yup, I'm a big nerdddd.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 11:33 PM
Fuckin' yeah! I read all those trance scenes (not to mention the journal entries in the back of SOS - especially those) and WANT them to be real.
No, more like I actually believe they're all real.
.

I really know where you are coming from with this. I've felt the same.

Unfound One
05-09-2008, 11:34 PM
Ha, minus the big nerd part, Matthew? :lol:

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 11:41 PM
You bet.

LadyHitchhiker
07-22-2008, 03:51 AM
I thought the trance parts of the book were one of the most realistic parts of the series.. SK made me believe it could happen.