Doubleday gutter code theory

[Randall Flagg]

This was discussed elsewhere quite a bit ago, but just recently came up here.

Doubleday Gutter code theory:
Hypothesis- The letter in the Doubleday gutter code indicates the year the book was PRINTED. The number is the week of the year the printing was done.
Keep in mind a book could be printed during the last several weeks of a calendar year but not be released until several weeks later and thus be released in a different year than the printing occurred.
(This is for 1st edition 1st printings)
Carrie-------- Released in 1974. P6 gutter code 4=P. Printed the 6th week of 1974.
'Salem's Lot-Released in 1975. Q37 gutter code 5=Q Printed the 37th week of 1975.
The Shining RELEASED in 1977. Gutter code R49. 6=R Printed the 49th week of 1976.
Night Shift RELEASED in 1978. Gutter code S52. 7=S Printed the 52nd week of 1977.
The Stand released 1978. Gutter code T39. 8=T Printed the 39th week of 1978.
Pet Semetary released 1983. Gutter code Y38 3=Y Printed the 38th week of 1983.



According to Hill House (http://www.hillhousepublishers.com/hh-collectingking01.htm):




QUOTE
Early 1977 saw the publication of King's third novel, The Shining.


That would seem to fit with my theory of the book being printed in early December of 1976(Assuming a M-F work schedule it would have been the week 12/6/76-12/10/76).

[e_taylor]

What system are you using to determine that 4 indicates p, 5 indicates q, etc...?

[Randall Flagg]

Deduction that P =1974, Q=1975, R=1976, based upon the year the books were published. Note The Shining was published in early 1977, but the physical printing of the book occurred in week 49 of 1976, thus the R49 gutter code it has.

[Brice]

Thank you for posting this over here Jerome.

[e_taylor]

Okay, I see it now, once you assume the first one, the pattern follows. Very cool, is there any way to ask someone from Doubleday if they have old production schedules?

[NeedfulKings]

So, a Stand with T51 in the gutter would likely have been printed the same year as the First Edition? It's price-clipped, but is definitely a trade edition with the quarter cloth binding in black. It's in really good condition, and since I picked it up at a library sale for $1, I think it's a good deal.

:)

[Randall Flagg]

In checking Pet Semetary, I think the previous assertion that the gutter code is Y3 is incorrect. If one opens the book a bit, the code is Y38. That would much better fit with the book being released in late 1983. My understanding is that a "Promotional Copy-not for sale" was offered in Publishers weekly, June 10, 1983. This would precede the books official release, and therefore actual printing of the book likely occurred the 38th week of 1983, not the 3rd week.
Every copy I have, whether it be the 1982 Tabitha King error or the 2nd state DJ, the book itself has the Y38 gutter code.
Anyone else care to check and confirm or deny?

[NeedfulKings]

My copy is pretty tight, but I did at first just see the Y3. As I pried a tiny bit, I see that there IS another digit and it does look like an 8.

So, I'll say that mine is a Y38 and if the year of Caretakers is 1982.

[NeedfulKings]

Assuming that there is not a book with all First Edition points that has an actual Y3 (or 31,32,33,etc.) in it, I think that those who publish "How To" lists for identifying true first editions could use the Y3 "or" Y38, couldn't they? That way people who don't want to pry their books open will still know it's a first.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

So, I'll say that mine is a Y38 and if the year of Caretakers is 1982.

My 1982 Caretakers is a Y38 as well.

[Randall Flagg]

Assuming that there is not a book with all First Edition points that has an actual Y3 (or 31,32,33,etc.) in it, I think that those who publish "How To" lists for identifying true first editions could use the Y3 "or" Y38, couldn't they? That way people who don't want to pry their books open will still know it's a first.
I was hoping Hutch and Bev Vincent (Chart on StephenKing.com) would chime in as they both have respected "How to Identify a 1st Edition" charts, which if I am correct, should be changed.

[carlosdetweiller]

I suppose I am in the minority (or perhaps a group of one), but I think there is way too much emphasis placed on these codes. For me, especially when talking about King's Doubleday editions, the sole criterion for identifying a first edition are the words "First Edition" stated on the copyright page. If "First Edition" isn't there then it isn't a first edition.

If it makes you feel better to look for the "Q37" on the last page of 'SALEM'S LOT or "P6" on the last page of CARRIE then by all means do so but I think that they will ALWAYS be there if the words "First Edition" are on the copyright page.

Has anyone ever seen a King book published by Doubleday with "First Edition" on the copyright page that had any code other than the ones that all these guides say identify a first printing? I don't think I have ever seen one.

Or to put it another way, have you ever looked at a copy of 'SALEM'S LOT, seen that it clearly stated "First Edition" on the copyright page and then turned to the last page and seen ANY OTHER code than "Q37"?

[Hutch]

I suppose I am in the minority (or

Or to put it another way, have you ever looked at a copy of 'SALEM'S LOT, seen that it clearly stated "First Edition" on the copyright page and then turned to the last page and seen ANY OTHER code than "Q37"?

Yes I have. And it was a 'Salem's Lot. Some a**hole tried to pull the wool over someones eyes. They tipped in a first edition copyright page into a later print book and didn't know enough to do the same to the code page. But that's a whole other " can of worms ". I think the code simply offers additional security.

[Bev Vincent]

I agree that the gutter code really says Y38 and that people have overlooked that because it is trapped in the binding on most copies. I will make note of this the next time I update the guide on King's web site, which should be fairly soon.

[Randall Flagg]

That may have been my book Hutch. I believe I sent you a The Shining, where someone (I am sure it was the guy who sold it to me years ago) had pasted in a First edition CR page, but had not-as it wasn't common knowledge 18-20 years ago, corrected the gutter code. I was a novice then and not only paid good money for the book, but also bought it with a price clipped DJ.
Live and learn.

[Hutch]

That may have been my book Hutch. I believe I sent you a The Shining, where someone (I am sure it was the guy who sold it to me years ago) had pasted in a First edition CR page, but had not-as it wasn't common knowledge 18-20 years ago, corrected the gutter code. I was a novice then and not only paid good money for the book, but also bought it with a price clipped DJ.
Live and learn.

thanks for reminding me about the book you had. I had forgotten all about it. I think you asked me to look at it. ... But no there was a 'Salem's about 4 years ago as well. So now I've seen at least two of these mis-matched modified books.

[Randall Flagg]

At least two forgeries you have seen. Wouldn't suprise me if they both came from the dealer I bought mine from.
He actually did (on mine), a decent, really a very good job of gluing the CR page in. Had it not been for the incorrect gutter code, I would have never suspected. Who knows, he could be today not only gluing in a different CR page, but also the gutter code page.
Hutch, you looked at mine and he had actually "bleached" out what was probably a library stamp. He likely found an ex library copy with the boards in bad shape an removed the CR page, putting it into a later printing-and in my case just clipping the DJ to fool me, and VOILA!

[jhanic]

Do you have the name of that dealer? I'm sure we are all interested!

John

[carlosdetweiller]

Those are good points. I hadn't thought about fraudulently altered books. Fortunately I don't think I have ever come across one.

[Hutch]

At least two forgeries you have seen. Wouldn't suprise me if they both came from the dealer I bought mine from.
He actually did (on mine), a decent, really a very good job of gluing the CR page in. Had it not been for the incorrect gutter code, I would have never suspected. Who knows, he could be today not only gluing in a different CR page, but also the gutter code page.
Hutch, you looked at mine and he had actually "bleached" out what was probably a library stamp. He likely found an ex library copy with the boards in bad shape an removed the CR page, putting it into a later printing-and in my case just clipping the DJ to fool me, and VOILA!

I'm not sure I remember all the details. Did you actually send it to me to look at and then I sent it back with the answer?

[NeedfulKings]

Quite an amazing story of fraud. The things that people will do for money. tsk tsk.

I know that most of you are only concerned with First Editions, but I'm also glad that we have a formula for determining the age of later Doubleday printings. It's just one more piece of collecting trivia.

[Randall Flagg]

At least two forgeries you have seen. Wouldn't suprise me if they both came from the dealer I bought mine from.
He actually did (on mine), a decent, really a very good job of gluing the CR page in. Had it not been for the incorrect gutter code, I would have never suspected. Who knows, he could be today not only gluing in a different CR page, but also the gutter code page.
Hutch, you looked at mine and he had actually "bleached" out what was probably a library stamp. He likely found an ex library copy with the boards in bad shape an removed the CR page, putting it into a later printing-and in my case just clipping the DJ to fool me, and VOILA!

I'm not sure I remember all the details. Did you actually send it to me to look at and then I sent it back with the answer?
Yes. You found exactly as I described above. we also talked a bit on the phone. This was ~3-4 years ago.

I can not prove, but I believe the person I bought it from performed the alterations.
Simply my "feeling".
His name is Mark Anderson from Copperdragon Books (http://www.abebooks.com/home/COPPERDRAGON/).

[Patrick]

That sucks, Jerome.

That guy is in the Bay Area, sorry to hear his reputation is in question.

[Randall Flagg]

I agree that the gutter code really says Y38 and that people have overlooked that because it is trapped in the binding on most copies. I will make note of this the next time I update the guide on King's web site, which should be fairly soon.
Bev, I noticed King's site still has the Y3 code listed.

[thecollector]

Now that is some excellent work! And the best theory I've seen to date.


Okay, I see it now, once you assume the first one, the pattern follows. Very cool, is there any way to ask someone from Doubleday if they have old production schedules?

I already got a hold of their customer service a couple of years ago. I can't say they were extremely helpful, but for what it's worth, I'm pasting the e-mail thread below.... Although the rep's response doesn't quite jibe with this theory, their information was so limited I can't say it nessisarily contradicts it either (it's in reverse order, so you'll want to read from the bottom to top)

=====================

Tomas,
We have already given you all the information at our disposal. We regret that we are not able to supply more detailed answers to all of your inquiries.
Thank you.
Consumer Services
X 863809

-----Original Message-----
From: Krynsky, Tomas
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:22 PM
To: ecustomerservice
Subject: RE: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

Thank you for that response. Is there any way I could get a chart or something similar that would list out what each code meant? Or even a partial list? If this is proprietary I completely understand, but it would help clear up which editions of books certain people would have.

Also, based off this new information, would it be possible that a later printing of a book would have had the same printer code?

For example, the original 1978 1st edition of "The Stand" by Stephen King does not have a standard number line on the copyright page to indicate what printing it is. As such the accepted way of determining a 1st edition is to look on page 823 and see if the code "T39" is there.
Also the dustjacket should have a price of $12.95

I assumed that this code would change with each printing, as there are other early Doubleday copies of "The Stand" floating around with other codes. But if the printer code indicates the plant and equipment is it possible that a later printing would have the same code if it was made in the same plant/machine?

Thank you again,



Tomas Krynsky

-----Original Message-----
From: ecustomerservice
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:11 AM
To: Krynsky, Tomas
Subject: RE: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

Tomas,
Apparently, the second time is the charm. Our go-to person is telling us that these numbers are printer codes, which have changed over the years, and they indicate which plant and which equipment were used in the production of the book.

Consumer Services
X 863809

-----Original Message-----
From: ecustomerservice
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:37 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

Tomas,
We apologize for not replying to you more promptly but we are still awaiting an answer from the appropriate department here. We have sent a second e-mail to them today. Please bear with us. Thank you for your patience.

Consumer Services
X 863809

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:30 AM
To: ecustomerservice
Subject: Stephen King Books ** CAPLAN **

A visitor to your website submitted the following question/comment from the contact form on your website. Simply hit the reply button in your email client to send back your reply.

The visitors details are:

Name: Tomas Krynsky
Email:
Question/Comment:

Hello, I had a question about your early Doubleday books, specifically early Stephen King titles such as 'Carrie', 'The Stand', etc. I collect Stephen King books, and most of the Dubleday 1st editions have a code on the gutter of the last page. P6 for Carrie, T39 for The Stand, etc.
Later printings of these books have different codes, but they don't make much sense to me. Could you tell me what these codes mean and/or if there's an easy way to decipher them?

Thank you in advance,

[Bev Vincent]

I agree that the gutter code really says Y38 and that people have overlooked that because it is trapped in the binding on most copies. I will make note of this the next time I update the guide on King's web site, which should be fairly soon.
Bev, I noticed King's site still has the Y3 code listed.


I submitted a new version to Jordan but they've been so busy with new site mods that they haven't updated it yet.

[Randall Flagg]

Thanks Bev.

[Randall Flagg]

Bumped for Gretchen.

[Randall Flagg]

Bump for TwistedNadine

[Randall Flagg]

Bumped for the 1/2 year.

[Randall Flagg]

Bumped for new members.

[Merlin1958]

I had a feeling this was getting a "bump"!! LOL LOL LOL

[Scoogs]

Came across this today while I was looking for something else and thought I'd give this thread a bump.

http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/index.php/Gutter_code

[Merlin1958]

Bump received and appreciated. That is very interesting.

[stroppygoblin]

Interesting indeed. no matter how much I think I've read all the interesting stuff, there's always something more to be found on this site!

[SirFolio16]

I will second that... I'm constantly learning new things from this site.

[tdshelc]

I have a first edition PS with the gutter code Y43. Can someone explain to me why this would make a difference? I've only seen the code Y38 in relation to this book...until now

[Bev Vincent]

Based on the prevailing theory, it was printed five weeks later than the original batch.

[biomieg]

Does your copy have the 'First Edition' statement on the bottom of the copyright page?

[tdshelc]

Another question for new friends better learned than I...Understanding for example, the theory of the gutter code Y38, (1983, thirty eighth week) Could anyone tell me what the meaning of "MP" found at the beginning of a code may signify? (written as MP6Z, MP6AA) As no one seems to know so far, my curiosity has been aroused.
-Ask the right questions, of the right people, you'll find the right answer-High School Teacher

[Br!an]

Does your copy have the 'First Edition' statement on the bottom of the copyright page?

I doubt it.

[Citizen of Lud]

Another question for new friends better learned than I...Understanding for example, the theory of the gutter code Y38, (1983, thirty eighth week) Could anyone tell me what the meaning of "MP" found at the beginning of a code may signify? (written as MP6Z, MP6AA) As no one seems to know so far, my curiosity has been aroused.
-Ask the right questions, of the right people, you'll find the right answer-High School Teacher

I have seen gutter codes like this in my BCE copies for example
Carrie: HB 4 U
'Salem's lot: HB 3 W
The shining: MP4W
Firestarter: MP9X
Night Shift: MP4BB
Cujo: MP9X
Different Seasons: MP2Y
Skeleton Crew: MP6X
The Bachman Books: MP3Z

[tdshelc]

The codes you listed, Do you know what they mean?

[EXPLORER]

Very interesting thread when read through from beginning

[Citizen of Lud]

The codes you listed, Do you know what they mean?

No clue

[stroppygoblin]

The codes you listed, Do you know what they mean?

No clue

If this was a Dan Brown forum, we would be discussing Illuminati and secret messages... :evil:

[tdshelc]

Right on...lol...I'll keep looking

[Bev Vincent]

If these are book club editions, as seems to be the case, then I doubt you'll find much information. There isn't much collector interest in BCEs.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

If these are book club editions, as seems to be the case, then I doubt you'll find much information. There isn't much collector interest in BCEs.

I agree. They are about as welcome as ebola!

[tdshelc]

These are BCE...just interested in the meaning of the code letters "MP" It's only recently that I've noticed that on some occasions I find gutter codes on books other than Doubleday first editions. I'm having a great time "getting to know" more about the books I love. This morning I acquired a F/F "The Stand" (T39) and I'm pretty happy...Sales Lot and Night Shift are my next endeavors, as these two are also childhood reading that has meaning for me. :)

[tdshelc]

Right on the Ebola! BCE do make good reading copies.

[Citizen of Lud]

I too wanted to find out about the codes myself. I can tell you one thing that I have seen, I could be wrong because Ebay is not the authority in these things but early BCE books follow the same code structure as the 1st trades do. I would have to see if I can find the examples that I seen, but I saw listings on Ebay that were BCE copies as listed dust jackets had no price gutter codes listed a (1) letter followed by a two digit number. The listed gutter code did not match 1st ed gutter code was latter print dont know the physical size of the book (one thing I wish people would list) and the postings I had seen did not show the book with the cover off. If your BCE copies show a two letter beginning I would say they are very very late printings. I believe this to be true due to the fact that the ones I own that have double letter beginnings the pages dont look that old

[Randall Flagg]

Bump for our newer members.

[Scoogs]

I may have posted some of these years ago, but they are still provide interesting background information.

http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/index.php/Gutter_code

https://www.bookthink.com/0005/05sfb.htm

https://www.statestreetbooks.com/gutter-codes

[daniel_pyle]

It’s funny you bumped this because I was literally thinking about it just today. My copies of Carrie, ‘Salem’s Lot, and Night Shift are all later printings from 1985-1986 (based on the AA42, BB1, and AA?? ((hidden in the binding)) gutter codes), but I’ve always wondered if there was any way to know which printing the books were. I’m guessing the answer is no, but does anyone happen to know if that’s something Doubleday tracked or information that’s available somewhere?

It doesn’t really matter—I got them all for next to nothing and don’t plan on selling them until unless I can replace them with first printings—but I’ve always just been curious about it. I’m guessing Carrie and ‘Salem’s Lot at least had been reprinted many times in the ~10 years before my copies rolled off the press, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Night Shift was a somewhat lower printing.

[herbertwest]

Up, to go with Daniel's thread : https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?23438-Doubleday-Printings&p=1246059#post1246059

[burgerhicks80]

why does the word gutter have the spoiler block over it?

[Joe315]

why does the word gutter have the spoiler block over it?

Where? Did you search for the word gutter? If so, the highlight color for the main site theme is the same color as the text so it blocks out the word.

[St. Troy]

Did you search for the word gutter? If so, the highlight color for the main site theme is the same color as the text so it blocks out the word.

I always thought that was one hell of an odd way to display search results.