The Dark Tower Comics Series - General Discussion

[pathoftheturtle]

Does anyone know why Furth and/or King are building up Maerlyn to be THE ultimate evil in the DT universe when he's only mentioned briefly in the novels? ...Well, if I had to guess, I'd say that Robin Furth liked W&G best, of all the novels, and that she's so hot over the grapefruit that she's blown those elements all out of proportion.

What upsets me most about it is the side-damage that they're now doing to the character of Merlin the magician from the Arthurian legends.

[fernandito]

I don't know where Furth thinks she's going with them - and I don't know for the life of me why King gave 'her/them' so much freedom with this whole thing.
[/rant]

This.

[John_and_Yoko]

Does anyone know why Furth and/or King are building up Maerlyn to be THE ultimate evil in the DT universe when he's only mentioned briefly in the novels? ...Well, if I had to guess, I'd say that Robin Furth liked W&G best, of all the novels, and that she's so hot over the grapefruit that she's blown those elements all out of proportion.

What upsets me most about it is the side-damage that they're now doing to the character of Merlin the magician from the Arthurian legends.

Damage? Merlin allowed Uther to kill Gorlois and rape his wife, and encouraged Arthur to kill every baby born the same day as Mordred to make up for having raped his married half-sister.

Merlin wasn't exactly the nicest guy around....

<.<

>.>

[CyberGhostface]

Aren't there different variations of Arthur, though? I've only read Once and Future King (because of Mordred, so I guess he was good for something) and Merlin was a fairly nice guy there.

[John_and_Yoko]

Aren't there different variations of Arthur, though? I've only read Once and Future King (because of Mordred, so I guess he was good for something) and Merlin was a fairly nice guy there.

Meh, I don't know--he was pretty adamant about internationalism, to the point where he helped Arthur fight his war against King Lot....

Anyway, most modern interpretations owe their existence (either directly or indirectly) to Le Morte D'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory (The Once and Future King most especially), and neither Arthur nor Merlin seems all that sympathetic to me therein, even though they're both SUPPOSED to be....

[turtlex]

Folks - There are a lot of different versions of the King Arthur tale. Some have Merlin as Arthur's father, some his brother, some he's a knight, some he's pure evil, some he is just "misunderstood".

[John_and_Yoko]

Folks - There are a lot of different versions of the King Arthur tale. Some have Merlin as Arthur's father, some his brother, some he's a knight, some he's pure evil, some he is just "misunderstood".

o_O

I haven't heard of those, about Merlin being Arthur's father or brother, or a knight....

[ManOfWesternesse]

( um, King sanctioned them, so they're kinda canon whether we like it or not )


'sanctioned' the project, yes Pam.
But is he really approving each issue (and each 'idea'), and taking an interest in where it's going?
Or is he just letting them get on with it? Does he care? (I tend to doubt it personally)

... and no, I don't like it ...... so it's not 'my' cannon! :lol:

[turtlex]

Yeah! It's not my canon either !! ( I love that !!! )

From what I read, he pretty much told this stuff to Furth himself...
....that was in another thread here someplace. Someone quoted the interview.

I have no clue if he's reading every issue, or getting the scripts ahead of time. His name is on each one though... so whether he likes it or not, he's approving them.

[Brice]

IMO KIng's claim to what is or isn't cannon ended when the last book was published.

[CyberGhostface]

( um, King sanctioned them, so they're kinda canon whether we like it or not )

George Lucas sanctioned the CGI Clone Wars cartoon, and see how many fans consider that to be canon. :D

[Matt]

I reject your canon and substitute my own.

-Adam Savage

:lol:

[sarajean]

for future reference.

cannon:

http://z.about.com/d/goeasteurope/1/0/N/1/-/-/TsarCannon.jpg

canon:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/astiacles/dt1to7.jpg

cannon:

http://jayssouth.com/georgia/athens/cannon1.jpg

canon:

https://www.horror-mall.com/images/P/dark-tower-01.jpg

[turtlex]

For future reference :

sarajean - :wub:
sarajean - :wub:

Oh.Wait.Those are the same.

[Matt]

I did it right!!!

:thumbsup:

[sarajean]

yes, matt, you did. :huglove:

[obscurejude]

Song of Susannah belongs in the cannon and not the canon. ;)

[Tik]

Maerlyn is mentioned so much in Mid-Worlds comic backstory for one very important reason - everyone in the DT books knows about him. Everyone on Mid-world in the DT novels knows whats he's done even if it wasn't revealed to the reader at the time. Flagg even gets mistaken for him. He's infamous....he's as well known as Arthur Eld. We are only now getting to know why he's so infamous.

And Maerlyn isn't the ultimate evil in the universe - the demiurge that spawned him is (see Gunslinger Born issue 4). Maerlyn is just one cog in that beings Random influence on creation (whom Stephen King called Dis in Song of Susannah). Remember that even Maerlyn doesn't know the full consequences of his actions that aid the Outer Dark. For example, he creates the Laughing Mirror to mock the Tower unintentionally helping the Random force of the Outer Dark gain a much firmer foothold throughout creation. This in turn causes the fall of Jonas and enhances Rhea's magic powers. All this is what Dis set into motion by using Maerlyn.

Another example is Maerlyns actions causing the Crimson Queen to rape Arthur Eld and birth the Crimson King - he didn't know this would happen. Dis, however, did and set those events in motion to ensure its avatar, the Crimson King, would come to be.


Think about how Gan, the Purpose and the White is described. Dis, the Random and the Outer Dark operates in exactly the same way - everything/everyone is a cog, a part of a machine so vast we cannot comprehend it. Maerlyn may be an important cog but he is just a cog. He created the Laughing Mirror and set the events up that led to the creation of the Red King for his own ends but the Random/Outer Dark ensured he would do this for its own reasons too. Maerlyn fulfilled his task for the Random in each of these events.

[jayson]

IMO KIng's claim to what is or isn't cannon ended when the last book was published. first book was revised.

There you are Brice, fixed that up for you. :evil:

[Brice]

IMO KIng's claim to what is or isn't cannon ended when the last book was published. first book was revised.

There you are Brice, fixed that up for you. :evil:

The first book NEVER was revised. :nope:

[jhanic]

I think he meant when The Gunslinger was revised.

John

[sarajean]

and i think he meant he refuses to accept the revision as a valid part of canon.

:D

[obscurejude]

and i think he meant he refuses to accept the revision as a valid part of canon.

:D

That's how I feel about the revised as well as Song of Susannah. Both should become paper confetti in a giant cannon.

[John_and_Yoko]

and i think he meant he refuses to accept the revision as a valid part of canon.

:D

That's how I feel about the revised as well as Song of Susannah. Both should become paper confetti in a giant cannon.

Stephen King owns your soul, mister. ;)

[obscurejude]

and i think he meant he refuses to accept the revision as a valid part of canon.

:D

That's how I feel about the revised as well as Song of Susannah. Both should become paper confetti in a giant cannon.

Stephen King owns your soul, mister. ;)

Why am I not surprised that J and Y caught this before anyone else. :P

"Soul", in what sense John? I'm a hardcore Aristotelian and I'd argue vehemently against the dichotomous view that the soul is a separate entity of ones physical "being." I've already expressed such ontological hesitations in embracing the idea that Roland's soul could exist in one world while his body dies of infection in another. I just don't believe that's realistic in any philosophical sense. King can take his Platonic dualisms and shove them in the same cannon that contains my copy of Song of Susannah and the revised Gunslinger.

[John_and_Yoko]

Why am I not surprised that J and Y caught this before anyone else. :P

"Soul", in what sense John? I'm a hardcore Aristotelian and I'd argue vehemently against the dichotomous view that the soul is a separate entity of ones physical "being." I've already expressed such ontological hesitations in embracing the idea that Roland's soul could exist in one world while his body dies of infection in another. I just don't believe that's realistic in any philosophical sense. King can take his Platonic dualisms and shove them in the same cannon that contains my copy of Song of Susannah and the revised Gunslinger.

Congratulations, you just bored me out of wanting to continue this further. :P

[obscurejude]

:D

I have that effect on many and I couldn't care less. The Greek Aeropagus ain't for everyone.

[John_and_Yoko]

:D

I have that effect on many and I couldn't care less. The Greek Aeropagus ain't for everyone.

Snob.

By the way, exactly where did we leave the topic of this thread, on the first page? :orely:

[obscurejude]

:D

I have that effect on many and I couldn't care less. The Greek Aeropagus ain't for everyone.

Snob.

By the way, exactly where did we leave the topic of this thread, on the first page? :orely:

Easy. It was just a joke. I don't think Aristotle would have used "ain't."

All of these topics that cyberghostface killah starts dissolve into a discussion about canonicity.

[John_and_Yoko]

:D

I have that effect on many and I couldn't care less. The Greek Aeropagus ain't for everyone.

Snob.

By the way, exactly where did we leave the topic of this thread, on the first page? :orely:

Easy. It was just a joke. I don't think Aristotle would have used "ain't."

All of these topics that cyberghostface killah starts dissolve into a discussion about canonicity.

XD Is that even a word?

Anyway, I was kidding you too, when I called you a snob. I have standards with what I like as well, but that doesn't mean that silly or dumb things don't make it past security sometimes, if there's something I like about them. :)

[obscurejude]

Its a word in the ol' dirty south, but not of ancient Athens. ;)

Its good to see you more active again. :)

[John_and_Yoko]

Its a word in the ol' dirty south, but not of ancient Athens. ;)

Its good to see you more active again. :)

It's good to be back, Lloyd, it's good to be back. :D

[Brice]

and i think he meant he refuses to accept the revision as a valid part of canon.

:D

;)

[RUBE]

Maerlyn is mentioned so much in Mid-Worlds comic backstory for one very important reason - everyone in the DT books knows about him. Everyone on Mid-world in the DT novels knows whats he's done even if it wasn't revealed to the reader at the time. Flagg even gets mistaken for him. He's infamous....he's as well known as Arthur Eld. We are only now getting to know why he's so infamous.

And Maerlyn isn't the ultimate evil in the universe - the demiurge that spawned him is (see Gunslinger Born issue 4). Maerlyn is just one cog in that beings Random influence on creation (whom Stephen King called Dis in Song of Susannah). Remember that even Maerlyn doesn't know the full consequences of his actions that aid the Outer Dark. For example, he creates the Laughing Mirror to mock the Tower unintentionally helping the Random force of the Outer Dark gain a much firmer foothold throughout creation. This in turn causes the fall of Jonas and enhances Rhea's magic powers. All this is what Dis set into motion by using Maerlyn.

Another example is Maerlyns actions causing the Crimson Queen to rape Arthur Eld and birth the Crimson King - he didn't know this would happen. Dis, however, did and set those events in motion to ensure its avatar, the Crimson King, would come to be.


Think about how Gan, the Purpose and the White is described. Dis, the Random and the Outer Dark operates in exactly the same way - everything/everyone is a cog, a part of a machine so vast we cannot comprehend it. Maerlyn may be an important cog but he is just a cog. He created the Laughing Mirror and set the events up that led to the creation of the Red King for his own ends but the Random/Outer Dark ensured he would do this for its own reasons too. Maerlyn fulfilled his task for the Random in each of these events.

So then in your opinion is Dis the Beast that King mentioned in the original Gunslinger but removed from the revised since he never actually made Roland face him? Walter said there he served Maerlyn who came to him in a dream but that Maerlyn served the Beast and refused to talk of him.

[pathoftheturtle]

...Merlin allowed Uther to kill Gorlois and rape his wife...Not that he really wanted to, by most accounts. He was very glad to see Uther replaced, as his dream always was an advancement of civilization. We have to remember that people are often limited by the conditions they're born into; folken seem to assume so often that any given character in a primitive world could just decide to be like we are as easily as most modern Americans can. History is the struggles and hard decisions that made all of that possible.
Folks - There are a lot of different versions of the King Arthur tale. ...Certainly, but that doesn't mean that there are no commonalities. It's a key myth of British identity, and thereby, of the general values of all Western culture. I think that each writer who expounds on it has certain responsibilities.
...Some have Merlin as... pure evil...Very few. As the king's advisor, he stands outside of conventional morality and shapes it. He's been called half demon, but usually fights against those dark influences.
...most modern interpretations owe their existence (either directly or indirectly) to Le Morte D'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory ...Yes, and much of the original smearing of Merlin came in with the medieval Christian romances because he was a pagan Celt. Some redemption occurred after Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave, the main inspiration for the 1998 TV Miniseries Merlin.
One of the more accurate tellings, BTW, leaving Malory out altogether, is the 2004 King Arthur.

Anyway, I did not originally view even the wizard's glasses as pure evil. The idea of Roland being seduced and controlled may fit with Furth's preferred interpretation of the series as a whole, but I had more of an impression that it was really the actual turtle that he saw in DT4, and his account in that novel of the number of times that he used the pink one, altogether, is flatly contradicted by the comics. Black 13 is obviously very evil, but I'm not so sure about the rest of this "new canon." I had once thought that it was the touch of the eye of the Crimson King that had corrupted the balls, and not the other way around.<_<

[John_and_Yoko]

...Merlin allowed Uther to kill Gorlois and rape his wife...Not that he really wanted to, by most accounts. He was very glad to see Uther replaced, as his dream always was an advancement of civilization. We have to remember that people are often limited by the conditions they're born into; folken seem to assume so often that any given character in a primitive world could just decide to be like we are as easily as most modern Americans can. History is the struggles and hard decisions that made all of that possible.
...most modern interpretations owe their existence (either directly or indirectly) to Le Morte D'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory ...Yes, and much of the original smearing of Merlin came in with the medieval Christian romances because he was a pagan Celt. Some redemption occurred after Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave, the main inspiration for the 1998 TV Miniseries Merlin.
One of the more accurate tellings, BTW, leaving Malory out altogether, is the 2004 King Arthur.

"Not that he really wanted to?" He was a WIZARD, for crying out loud! Anyway, you seemed to contradict yourself there--first you say he was a victim who had no choice: "just following orders," then you say it's a values dissonance thing, that people had different concepts of right and wrong back then.... The latter seems more likely to me. Anyway, you didn't address the whole slaughtering of every baby who shared Mordred's birthday EXCEPT Mordred....

And yeah, I'm aware of that--I'm not familiar with The Crystal Cave but I've seen Merlin (the one with Sam Neill, don't know if that's the one you mean), and I didn't like it at all. :P

Also, King Arthur LOOKS accurate but really isn't. Lucius Artorius Castus, for example, lived way back in the second century, and the Saxons didn't enter Britain for another three hundred years--AFTER the Romans left the island. Not to mention I've never heard of Picts being called "Woads," even by foreigners.

[Wuducynn]

Wasn't impressed with the artwork. The characters look different now and not in a good way. This issue didn't seem to go anywhere and like Brain said didn't have much to do with the cover. I wish it would have. Honestly one of the worst issues in the whole DT comics.

[Empath of the White]

Maybe...just maybe...this is a subtle hint that King is going to do some revisions on the last 3 to get them to match up with his original version of The Gunslinger?:orely:

I seem to recall him saying that the 7 books were pretty much a "rough draft." I think it'd be awesome if it were. Sadly its just a guess on my part.

[jayson]

Maybe...just maybe...this is a subtle hint that King is going to do some revisions on the last 3 to get them to match up with his original version of The Gunslinger?:orely:

So the Revised Gunslinger would go with the original DT 5-7, and the Original Gunlsinger would go with the Revised DT 5-7. That would be quite odd and make little sense for King to endeavor to fulfill. Why revise the first one at all to match the books 5-7 continuity if he planned on revising 5-7 to the original continuity?

Is King also stuck in a loop?

[jhanic]

I think King said he would like to revise books 2-4 to match those of the revised Gunslinger and books 5-7. I've heard that later he changed his mind.

John

[Brice]

You are right about him saying he wanted to revise them, John. I've never heard anything about him changing his mind though. Either way I doubt he'll ever do it...and I hope he doesn't. I'd rather he move along and write new books. Oh yeah....not to mention that I view the revisions as unnecessary and a bit contrived.

[Daghain]

I have to agree with that. I miss Jae Lee's artwork the most. :(

[pathoftheturtle]

"Not that he really wanted to?" He was a WIZARD, for crying out loud! ...Yes, a wizard, but not a god.

...Anyway, you seemed to contradict yourself there--first you say he was a victim who had no choice: "just following orders," then you say it's a values dissonance thing, that people had different concepts of right and wrong back then...Most people did, and it's hard to oppose society. I'm saying that Merlin had no choice because the man giving the orders didn't have the same concept of right and wrong.

...I'm not familiar with The Crystal Cave but I've seen Merlin (the one with Sam Neill, don't know if that's the one you mean), and I didn't like it at all. :P ...Well, you might still like the novels. I preferred them. To each his own, though. I'm just saying a bit about recent popular perceptions.
...Also, King Arthur LOOKS accurate but really isn't. ...Sure. I just said that it was "more" accurate. Comparatively.
...Anyway, you didn't address the whole slaughtering of every baby who shared Mordred's birthday EXCEPT Mordred...I'd like to, but I think it'd turn this thread into a real ethics and morality flamefest. The point is that they have taken a major literary figure with nuance and sophisticated development and, by this point, turned him into a simplistic caricature. I've never said that earlier versions of Merlin were total paragons of virtue. Still, notice that he is not used at all in the terrible film First Knight. It was much easier with no Merlin to portray their postmodern fantasy.
...I've never heard of Picts being called "Woads," even by foreigners.Woad is the name of the face-paint. Probably just a nickname for that specific Pictish band.

[Brainslinger]

Another thing that film got wrong, the Picts fought against many of the Britons. (The people of what is now England, I mean.) There are suggestions they allied themselves with the Angles and Saxons...

To be fair I don't think the Artorius of the film was meant to be the Lucius Artorius Castus but a descendant so that at least explains the difference in time.

As for Maerlyn, I used to hope he would turn out to be a kind of 'white' alternative to Walter. I remember Song of Susannah describing the reduction of magic in the world and the departure of Maerlyn to his cave as being a bad thing. To be fair a lot of that stuff was from the point of view Mia, a succubus from the prim, so her viewpoint might have been warped. On the other hand she saw the rise of technology as a bad thing too, and Maerlyn was partly responsible for that. Then again she was rather a complex character, an anomaly amongst her own species. He certainly seems evil in the first version of the Gunslinger though, but I'm not sure whether we should count that. Ms Furth seemed to have got a lot of her ideas from that though (or maybe she got it straight from King himself, like the origins of Walter.

I guess from the little we read in the books, Maerlyn could have gone either way, good or evil, but I agree it would have been nicer if they had done more with him rather than just making him Flagg mark 1. (Mark 1 from a chronological point of view I mean.)

[pathoftheturtle]

I was actually rather impressed by Ms. Furth's second afterward to this issue. The first was just the same kind of self-congratulatory blather that she usually writes about how good the sources of her ideas are and how much she loves SK, but the second one, entitled "Matricide" was quite meaninful. I did have some problems with it, but many points seemed more insightful to me than any of the conclusions in her Concordances.
I just wonder if she really knew what she was saying.

...I have always maintained that it is not ultimately the gore of a scary story that snds us running. Instead, it is the existential horror BEHIND the face of the knife or axe-wielding psycho (or demon) that terrifies. What makes someone a murderer, a rapist, a torturer? What makes someone take pleasure in another person's pain? Are these people really like the rest of us? ...:thumbsup:
Later, though, she says that
...ultimately, the fall we witness isn't just the fall of a city or even a land: it's the fall of an individual. ...:wtf: On the face of things, one would think that the fall of a land or even a city would be more serious a matter than the fall of an individual. Of course the story of the individual may be more interesting to us, but this is psychological horror, not existential. It seems that what she actually thinks is that the mind is "BEHIND" the demon, and that that is scarier than the demon which might be beyond the mind. I think those questions of why people do evil and what the nature of the world is are really deeper than questions of how it happens and what they go through.
Still, there is much to be said for psychological horror, and while I hate to see it overemphasized in TDT, I do believe that it has always had a vital role in it.
I haven't much loved the comics so far, but I do agree that
...Roland's matricide...is the pivotal point of his existence. ...
There could well be good reasons that that old idea that "the king is the land" went out of fashion. I'm not so sure that all the decay of Mid-World can honestly be attributed to Roland. Nevertheless, I wouldn't try to claim that he is irreproachable.:orely:
...as those familiar with the original Dark Tower novels know, Roland Deschain is a murderer, but he is a murderer who ultimatelly wants to atone for his sins. ...Amen.

[Brainslinger]

There could well be good reasons that that old idea that "the king is the land" went out of fashion. I'm not so sure that all the decay of Mid-World can honestly be attributed to Roland. Nevertheless, I wouldn't try to claim that he is irreproachable.

Yes, I didn't entirely agree with what Furth said there too.

Very minor novel spoilers:


She gave the Mohain desert as an example, yet I'm sure the desert existed in the world of his childhood, although it was probably smaller. And we know from the hills at the ending of The Gunslinger right through The Wastelands (up until Ludd anyway) and the later books that there are still verdant green areas. I imagine she was just using the Mohain desert in a symbolic way rather than stating it literally passed on along with Roland. Lets face it, although he is wearing out somewhat along with the World he is still very vital.

The whole Arthurian 'King and the land' idea was very interesting though. I certainly don't seen Roland as the specific cause. More a general sense of tiredness, 'moving on' as they say, throughout the world and it's inhabitants.

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

Nice. I'm not sure why Indianna Jones is in the second picture, but it's a great picture.

Wow, took the words right outa my mouth.

That soooo looks like Harrison Ford.

[pathoftheturtle]

Sorry about the delay.
...My basic problem with that origin is that is states that Flagg has been evil all along. Thus, the rape has NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER to his character anymore. He's already in allegiance with his evil father. If you set up a tragic event that shapes why a villain is 'evil', making him BORN evil completely negates that. ...I never saw the event as having been set up for that purpose. It made some sense once you described it, but it's not how I understood SK's
intent on first reading DT7. Even if the rape has no purpose to his character, it still has a purpose to the scene in which it appears. It may have been saying something different about the character, though, indicated by the title of the chapter, "The Shining Wire" in reference to Watership Down.
...let's look at Magneto, from the X-Men. His hatred for humanity is because he lost his family in the Holocaust. He's tragic because he starts out as innocent but becomes utterly warped by horrific events. Now imagine Magneto doing malicious acts because he's 'bored' before losing his family. ...Magneto is one of Marvel's more unusual characters. Identification is their hallmark, you know, and was key to their success; before Stan Lee and company put their readers into the shoes of superheroes, the audience was expected to simply look up to Superman, or at best to imagine being Robin. Even when he was a X-Man in the '80s, though, Magneto was aloof and inscrutable... until he finally returned to outright terrorism. Always more multidimensional than that company's other "bad guys" he is indeed a complex personality, and hard to classify, which is fitting since he originally was loosely based on Malcom X.

However, let's look at another villian, of a different type: Desire from The Sandman. Desire is comparatively uni-dimensional; although its nature is identifiably human, it is only one aspect of a typical personality. Within that mythos, in fact, it is the very avatar of that dark aspect. Does this make it a lesser character, compared to Magneto? I don't think so. Just different.
If SK wanted Walter/Flagg to be an outright monster, I can dig that, but even if that is totally screwing up the character, that is his right, after all. It's his creation. I trust the author, though. Such approach opens him up to such things as...
...L. Sprague de Camp's criticism that Flagg was too evil to be taken seriously....but there are, of course, other ways of looking at it. There's a pretty common belief that really, everyone believes (or tries to believe) that they are good-- that everyone has or wants to have self-esteem-- and that "evil" or "bad" is an idea which we only apply to others. I myself believed this during my teens. But now, I'm not so sure. Remember that Randall Flagg was said in The Stand to have been the real leader of the Manson family. If he's more evil than Charles Manson, then he is Red indeed.
Perhaps the best tale of inside evil ever written is Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart," where murder is committed out of pure evil, with no mitigating circumstances whatever to tincture the brew. Poe suggests we will call his narrator mad because we must always believe that such perfect, motiveless evil is mad, for the sake of our own sanity.
--Stephen King,
Danse MacabreStill, you do have a good point here:
...Plus, in Flagg's dying moments, he remembers himself as being the son of Sam the Miller, born in Delain and later raped. What reason would he have to neglect that he was in fact the son of Maerlyn? ...My basic problem with the revision of his origin is that they had gone out of their way to show that the reason that the Crimson King is indestructible is that, although he had a human father, his mother was a prim demon. If o'Dim, then, has what they have made out to be the GREATEST of the prim demons for his father and a freaking goddess for his mother, how could he have been mortal?!
The only reason I can see for them to do this would be that they want to bring him back.

After all, every magical being has the ability to endlessly regenerate.
--"The Laughing Mirror, Part 1"
by Robin Furth

[Brainslinger]

My basic problem with the revision of his origin is that they had gone out of their way to show that the reason that the Crimson King is indestructible is that, although he had a human father, his mother was a prim demon. If o'Dim, then, has what they have made out to be the GREATEST of the prim demons for his father and a freaking goddess for his mother, how could he have been mortal?!
The only reason I can see for them to do this would be that they want to bring him back.


Those demons of human form, like Maerlyn are actually counted as lesser demons of the prim. (Not including the insectoids who took human form and came to Arthur's coronation as king of All-World.) That being said, he has probably caused as much if not more mischief than the others, but that's mainly because he gets around making mischief rather than the quantity of his power.

The Red Queen on the other hand was one of the Great Ones of the prim. In fact it was implied she was their leader. That probably goes a long way to explaining the Crimson King's relative invulnerability despite his human father.

As for Walter's mother... I know she's described as being a death goddess, but I wonder, is she truly a goddess* or merely another humanoid demon who was worshipped? In the same way the Can-char were actually demons who were worhipped with the old Charyou-tree rites. A 'god' is merely something that is worshipped after all.

*in race or species I mean, in the sense that the beings of Olympus were gods.

[CyberGhostface]

I never saw the event as having been set up for that purpose. It made some sense once you described it, but it's not how I understood SK's
intent on first reading DT7. Even if the rape has no purpose to his character, it still has a purpose to the scene in which it appears. It may have been saying something different about the character, though, indicated by the title of the chapter, "The Shining Wire" in reference to Watership Down.

I'm not sure what you mean here? (I haven't read Watership Down yet, unfortunately, although it's on my to-do list...:()

But I do think the rape was at, the very least, to be some sort of starting point. Bev Vincent theorized that Flagg hated Delain so much because of his childhood. I don't know what King's true intent was, but I do think it showed that Flagg wasn't an inhuman manifestation of evil but rather a normal person who went down on a bad path after being struck by misfortune--and IMO the comic took that away.


However, let's look at another villian, of a different type: Desire from The Sandman. Desire is comparatively uni-dimensional; although its nature is identifiably human, it is only one aspect of a typical personality. Within that mythos, in fact, it is the very avatar of that dark aspect. Does this make it a lesser character, compared to Magneto? I don't think so. Just different.
If SK wanted Walter/Flagg to be an outright monster, I can dig that, but even if that is totally screwing up the character, that is his right, after all. It's his creation. I trust the author...

I'm only halfway through the first Sandman hardcover, so I unfortunately can't comment on Desire. But I agree that a lot of good villains are different--some are pure evil, some are complex, etc, etc. So I really don't have a good answer on that--it just depends on how its delivered from the writer, I suppose.

I wouldn't mind if Flagg was depicted as being pure evil, just not to change past mythology for the worse to do so. With Flagg, I've really grown to appreciate his human origin for four years now and dwell on it, so that's one of the reasons why the new origin bothered me. It's sort of funny, in retrospect; I remember reading Jonas's origin and I thought to myself, "They better not pull this crap with Flagg..."


..but there are, of course, other ways of looking at it. There's a pretty common belief that really, everyone believes (or tries to believe) that they are good-- that everyone has or wants to have self-esteem-- and that "evil" or "bad" is an idea which we only apply to others. I myself believed this during my teens. But now, I'm not so sure. Remember that Randall Flagg was said in The Stand to have been the real leader of the Manson family. If he's more evil than Charles Manson, then he is Red indeed.

King apparently said at a college (I wasn't there) that Flagg is his most evil villain, because whereas some of the others believe that they are doing the right thing, Flagg knows he's evil. And as much as I like to sympathize with him because of his humanity, I've never actually sympathized with the majority of his actions, because he's done some, well, pretty damn horrific stuff.


Perhaps the best tale of inside evil ever written is Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart," where murder is committed out of pure evil, with no mitigating circumstances whatever to tincture the brew. Poe suggests we will call his narrator mad because we must always believe that such perfect, motiveless evil is mad, for the sake of our own sanity.
--Stephen King,
Danse Macabre

That's interesting that King saw it that way...I saw the narrator as more pathetic and pitiable than outright evil.

[pathoftheturtle]

...I'm only halfway through the first Sandman hardcover. ...Oh, you're in for a treat. :)

...it just depends on how its delivered from the writer, I suppose.

I wouldn't mind if Flagg was depicted as being pure evil, just not to change past mythology for the worse to do so. With Flagg, I've really grown to appreciate his human origin for four years now and dwell on it, so that's one of the reasons why the new origin bothered me. ...I can respect that. This is one of the drawbacks of King's technique. I love his style, but it IS kind of crappy, how his indecision can sometimes pull the rug out from under us.



Perhaps the best tale of inside evil ever written is Poe's "The Tell-Tale Heart," where murder is committed out of pure evil, with no mitigating circumstances whatever to tincture the brew. Poe suggests we will call his narrator mad because we must always believe that such perfect, motiveless evil is mad, for the sake of our own sanity.
--Stephen King,
Danse Macabre

That's interesting that King saw it that way...I saw the narrator as more pathetic and pitiable than outright evil.:scared: Uh... we may just have to agree to disagree... :o



I never saw the event as having been set up for that purpose. It made some sense once you described it, but it's not how I understood SK's
intent on first reading DT7. Even if the rape has no purpose to his character, it still has a purpose to the scene in which it appears. It may have been saying something different about the character, though, indicated by the title of the chapter, "The Shining Wire" in reference to Watership Down.

I'm not sure what you mean here? (I haven't read Watership Down yet, unfortunately, although it's on my to-do list...:() Well, let me look something up, give it some thought, & I'll try to clarify.

Till then; peace. :)

[turtlex]

It's official... this thread is now longer than the comic.

[pathoftheturtle]

:rofl: Tower junkies: more long-winded than SK himself. :P

BTW, to Brainslinger; thanks for that information. I'm more of a look-at-stuff-from-every-angle kind of guy than a memorize-what-has-been-told type. It's quite helpful to have knowledgeable folken like you and Matthew (and Tik :) ) in this tet.

[CyberGhostface]

Oh, you're in for a treat. :)

Will I still enjoy it if I know how the series ends?


:scared: Uh... we may just have to agree to disagree... :o

I'm not saying Tell-Tale Heart's protagonist was excusable in his insanity, just that he wasn't "perfect, motiveless evil". He did have a motive, it just happened to be utterly delusional. I haven't read all of Poe's work yet, but I would say the protagonist from "Cask of Amontillado" was probably more evil in that he was in full control of his mental facilities.

"Poe suggests we will call his narrator mad because we must always believe that such perfect, motiveless evil is mad, for the sake of our own sanity." No, Poe suggests the narrator's mad because he's crazier than a shithouse rat, believes that the old man's eye is evil, and thinks that his his own heartbeat is in fact the old man's disembodied heart beating underneath the floorboard.

[Brainslinger]

BTW, to Brainslinger; thanks for that information. I'm more of a look-at-stuff-from-every-angle kind of guy than a memorize-what-has-been-told type. It's quite helpful to have knowledgeable folken like you and Matthew (and Tik :) ) in this tet.

You're welcome! I had to scroll up to read what this was responding too though, so my memory isn't that great. ;) My memory is actually far from encyclopedic, especially compared to a lot of guys on here though, but some specific things will sink in and stay with me. Monster stuff for example. ;)

For example I know Walter's mother functions as a death goddess who tempts people away before their time.

Dark Tower 7 Spoiler:
I suspect she was the wench Roland was talking about to 'The Writer' in the last Dark Tower novel.


But can I remember her name? Not without looking it up in the Sorceror. Heh.

[wizardsrainbow]

snorminton - Welcome to the site !!!

I agree about Jae. I love Isanove but do miss Jae's work. He's such an amazing artist.

From what we heard, it wasn't that Joe got behind, but that he was committed to other things, not limited to Dead Irons.

And he'll be drawing the last arc. From what I read in another thread... somewhere... he started work on Jericho Hill and Isanove became main artist for the comics in between.

I really liked Isanove's work on The Sorceror. I actually think Isanove does facial expressions better. I.e Jae Lee's drawings all look very serious, rarely raise a smile even when it's warranted. In the case of Roland that fits, but not Cuthbert.

That's a small criticism though, I'm sure Jae Lee could rectify easily enough. His art is visually stunning and sumptious, that's for sure.

My copy of this is in the post now. Hopefully it'll arive tomorrow. (I didn't even realise it was out, until the last minute! Heh.)

Ok, I've been on the sidelines here for awhile but it is now time to weigh in with my opinion.

Again, my opinion only. Both Jae and Richard are extremely talented artists, but I find that I am missing Jae's art very very much. I agree that his depictions of the characters were more "grim" but I liked that a lot. I picked up this Fall of Gilead edition and the wind went out of my sails when I looked at Alain, Cuthbert, Eileen and Roland. And, oh, Jae did a kick-ass Cort, but Richard's version looks like a pudgy bald man. The characters just don't carry that edge I grew accustomed with when Jae was drawing the panels. My preference, however. I still like the story and I do like Richard's artwork, but Jae's just my man.

And yes, Jae will be drawing the final arc. You can take that to the bank.

[wizardsrainbow]

Oh, forgot. the new Eileen has boobs all of a sudden! Loved Jae's rendition of Eileen!

[turtlex]

Thanks for the update, Wiz. :couple:

I have to agree - again, I think Isanove is an amazing artist - but to me, Jae Lee will be back where he belongs for the final arc.

[pathoftheturtle]

Oh, you're in for a treat. :)

Will I still enjoy it if I know how the series ends? Not as much, of course. I thought you might have read it, but, since not, I can only say that it is worth your while. :)
And I don’t intend to spoil Watership Down, either. ;)

Re: not agreeing to disagree: :rolleyes: Well, now we’re getting into literary interpretation in general… and yet I feel that I must respond. Tell ya what…http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?p=397981#post397981

[turtlex]

Just got a notification from my CGC guy that I am now the proud owner of a Sorcerer #1 CGC graded 9.9 !!!!! :nana:

Yeah. Kinda happy about it.

[Daghain]

:clap:

[jhanic]

Just got a notification from my CGC guy that I am now the proud owner of a Sorcerer #1 CGC graded 9.9 !!!!! :nana:

Yeah. Kinda happy about it.

Congratulations again, Pam. That and the signed limited LSOE in one day! WOW!

John

[turtlex]

John - It has been a GREAT day, for sure !

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, anyway, this thread's not really supposed to be about the effect of TDT on English literature as a whole; the point of it is the effect of these new tales on TDT itself. I tend to rather agree that the new details about Maerlyn and his paraphernalia are eclipsing the original meaning. Of course, I'm not privy to the creators' long-range plans... if there are any. It just seems to me that the focus has been on "explaining" Roland's "big mistake" and that there's really been too little forethought as to the ultimate effects of the means that are being used.

I've already shared my theory that Robin Furth is basically a fan with selective perception. Now let me say a little about Stephen King and his part in all of this. I believe that reaching the Tower had its own meaning for King, privately. However, look at "On Being Nineteen" wherein he admits that his primary goal is "an audience" and claims that this is no more selfish than "seeking the keys to the self" like a strictly intellectual writer.
King believes in giving the people what they want.
With so many fans identifying with the socially redeeming interpretation of the ending, why would he reject his own success?
The problem is that people don't really know what they want. It becomes necessary to reinvent the tragedy.

But who knows? If enough of us are into it, then perhaps something will be made out of all of this. There is a built-in release: Perhaps in the DT films, Roland will learn the truth from Gan, about the real source of all of their problems, and we will then get more comics or a TV series in which he goes after Maerlyn.

[Dud-a-chum?]

Well, shit. I've been gone way too long.

Is this thing gonna be available for awhile? Or has it already come and gone from the stands? I don't really want a flimsy magazine for my DT comics, so will it be available in hardcover form at any point?

I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but I honestly had no idea this one-shot story existed until just now.

Also, pertaining to Flagg's new origin story: I personally am pleased, because once again it depicts Flagg as a force of nature, and not just some molested kid who learned magic tricks. He is a true quasi-immortal Wizard again, and if that means King has to re-write the sham of an origin story he wrote for Flagg in DT7 when it comes to the omnibus editions, well, I personally don't care. Anything to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Yuck.

Also, I haven't read the comic yet, so that story could contradict this, but who's to say Flagg can't have multiple origins? Maybe each form he takes was at one point a real person, or at least immitates an actual person who such things happened to.

If the Walter persona was based on an actual human being Flagg 'stole' the identity from, maybe it is possible for him to be not just a master of disguise, but in fact multiple people who have merged together. I mean, he can be on all different levels of the Tower, so why not? I think it is very plausible that in fact 'Flagg' is the force that brought all of these indentities together, and that each indentity it has taken on had their own seperate beginnings.

Or I could be crazy . . .

[turtlex]

Dud-a : The comic is available until it sells out at your local comic book store.

Most stores keep back-copies ( just look behind the current copy on the shelf ) or ask the owner... if they actually sold out, they can usually get you a copy.

[CyberGhostface]

Is this thing gonna be available for awhile? Or has it already come and gone from the stands? I don't really want a flimsy magazine for my DT comics, so will it be available in hardcover form at any point?

I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but I honestly had no idea this one-shot story existed until just now.

Yes and yes. I don't see it going out of print anytime soon (except for the first couple of issues, I don't recall any selling out.) It will probably be collected in hardcover format like the rest of the issues. You can get it at eBay right now for 2.99.


Also, pertaining to Flagg's new origin story: I personally am pleased, because once again it depicts Flagg as a force of nature, and not just some molested kid who learned magic tricks. He is a true quasi-immortal Wizard again, and if that means King has to re-write the sham of an origin story he wrote for Flagg in DT7 when it comes to the omnibus editions, well, I personally don't care. Anything to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Yuck.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of opinion either way, but I always assumed that Flagg began as a human. He never struck me as being some cosmic entity like IT. And if anything, Flagg having a humble origin fits King's original idea for the character as way back with The Stand he was always intended to be much less powerful than he lead people to believe (although I think King went too far with that with his death). Having him be a simple farmboy who ran away completes that better than having him being the son of PURE EVIL.


Also, I haven't read the comic yet, so that story could contradict this, but who's to say Flagg can't have multiple origins? Maybe each form he takes was at one point a real person, or at least immitates an actual person who such things happened to.

If the Walter persona was based on an actual human being Flagg 'stole' the identity from, maybe it is possible for him to be not just a master of disguise, but in fact multiple people who have merged together. I mean, he can be on all different levels of the Tower, so why not? I think it is very plausible that in fact 'Flagg' is the force that brought all of these indentities together, and that each indentity it has taken on had their own seperate beginnings.

Flagg's backstory is already a mess and that would make it more convoluted IMO if he had different backstories.

[turtlex]

I'm not so sure about that hardcover part, CGF. The one shots don't usually make the cut.

[CyberGhostface]

Well, this wasn't like those "guidebooks" if that's what you're referring to...it picks up from Treachery ended and has some stuff (like the resurrection of Farson's son) that are presumably followed in Fall of Gilead. "Guide to Gilead" and stuff like that is more like a glossary--this was actually a story. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't included in the hardcover for Fall of Gilead.

[turtlex]

I hope you're right....

... I'm all for "more" to be in the hardcovers!

[CyberGhostface]

I wouldn't be surprised either if they make a hardcover out of all the "appendix" issues once the series is over.

[Dud-a-chum?]

Is this thing gonna be available for awhile? Or has it already come and gone from the stands? I don't really want a flimsy magazine for my DT comics, so will it be available in hardcover form at any point?

I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but I honestly had no idea this one-shot story existed until just now.

Yes and yes. I don't see it going out of print anytime soon (except for the first couple of issues, I don't recall any selling out.) It will probably be collected in hardcover format like the rest of the issues. You can get it at eBay right now for 2.99.

*sigh of relief* I truly hope you are right. Either way, it's to the news stands I go, just in case it doesn't make it into any of the hardcovers.



Also, pertaining to Flagg's new origin story: I personally am pleased, because once again it depicts Flagg as a force of nature, and not just some molested kid who learned magic tricks. He is a true quasi-immortal Wizard again, and if that means King has to re-write the sham of an origin story he wrote for Flagg in DT7 when it comes to the omnibus editions, well, I personally don't care. Anything to get that bad taste out of my mouth. Yuck.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of opinion either way, but I always assumed that Flagg began as a human. He never struck me as being some cosmic entity like IT. And if anything, Flagg having a humble origin fits King's original idea for the character as way back with The Stand he was always intended to be much less powerful than he lead people to believe (although I think King went too far with that with his death). Having him be a simple farmboy who ran away completes that better than having him being the son of PURE EVIL.

Well, I do agree with you in part, but I think we all know that King makes a lot of this shit up as he goes along, and while Flagg may not have always been meant to be a very powerful, evil force (His weaknesses and contradictory behavior in 'Eyes of the Dragon' for instance, show a much more human Flagg than any other book, in my opinion), that is ultimately what he became.

So which is better, going along with the natural evolution the character has taken over the last thirty some odd years? Or reverting back to the original concept of Flagg at the last minute after so much contradictory material has been written for him? Seems to me King ran out of ideas of what to do with Flagg, so he decided to re-write him mid-series and depict him as a mere mortal once again so he could have an excuse for his quick demise. To me, that's not fair to the reader, who has become attached to the character as he was written years ago, then all of sudden have all of that disregarded in the end. Just my opinion.



Also, I haven't read the comic yet, so that story could contradict this, but who's to say Flagg can't have multiple origins? Maybe each form he takes was at one point a real person, or at least immitates an actual person who such things happened to.

If the Walter persona was based on an actual human being Flagg 'stole' the identity from, maybe it is possible for him to be not just a master of disguise, but in fact multiple people who have merged together. I mean, he can be on all different levels of the Tower, so why not? I think it is very plausible that in fact 'Flagg' is the force that brought all of these indentities together, and that each indentity it has taken on had their own seperate beginnings.

Flagg's backstory is already a mess and that would make it more convoluted IMO if he had different backstories.

Meh . . . as you said, the origin is already quite untidy and logic-less, so the way I see it, a radical explanation like the one I proposed couldn't do it any more harm, and in fact just might make all of the pieces snap back into place.

Oh, I'm not looking for it to happen, mind you, but it would be nice; that way I could actually know which version of Flagg to believe in. Right now whenever I read him in King's books, I never know how much of a threat he actually is, do to the butchering of his nature and backstory.

[CyberGhostface]

Well, I do agree with you in part, but I think we all know that King makes a lot of this shit up as he goes along,

I agree-- King definitely makes it up as he goes along. Thats one of my biggest problems with the series, that he didn't have some sort of master plan. By the end the whole mythology became such a mess to the point where King all but threw up his hands and went "Screw this!" when went out of his way to say that the related books don't matter in the final novel.


and while Flagg may not have always been meant to be a very powerful, evil force (His weaknesses and contradictory behavior in 'Eyes of the Dragon' for instance, show a much more human Flagg than any other book, in my opinion), that is ultimately what he became.

Actually, I think its the opposite--out of all the books he's been in, I think The Stand is where he's most powerful and the closest to being the force of pure evil. After that he became pretty much an evil wizard from that point on.


So which is better, going along with the natural evolution the character has taken over the last thirty some odd years? Or reverting back to the original concept of Flagg at the last minute after so much contradictory material has been written for him?

I don't see it as 'reverting' because he's always been like that--being less powerful than he lets on. His origin fits that.


Seems to me King ran out of ideas of what to do with Flagg, so he decided to re-write him mid-series and depict him as a mere mortal once again so he could have an excuse for his quick demise. To me, that's not fair to the reader, who has become attached to the character as he was written years ago, then all of sudden have all of that disregarded in the end. Just my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I HATED his demise. It's the WORST thing in the series by far--I cannot stress this enough. Hell will freeze over before I defend it. King obviously killed him off because he lost interest in him and wanted to focus more on Mordred Poopingpants.

But even if making him human was merely to further that demise, I still think his origin works for his character. I think he's more interesting as someone who becomes evil after having horrific events happen rather than someone simply born evil. I also think it makes him a bit sympathetic, which I like.

[pathoftheturtle]

...with The Stand he was always intended to be much less powerful than he lead people to believe (although I think King went too far with that with his death). ...Why am I not surprised? :P
Evil always has a short half-life.
--The Stand

I kind of like your idea, Dud-a-chum?: you're right that they should do something.

[turtlex]

Graded 9.9 Baby !!!

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/596/medium/DSC02638.JPG

As of this time - the only one available!! Yeah. :rock:

[jhanic]

Pam, have you ever seen a CGC-graded comic with a 10? I realize that such an item would be EXTREMELY expensive, but as I'm new to the comics scene, I'm just curious.

John

[turtlex]

Yes, I've seen them, and yes, they're pricey.

Honestly, you can sometimes see Locke & Key issues graded 10. ( Personally, I think it's because of the high grade cover material the IDW comics have )

I don't have any 10's in my collection, but do have 4 9.9's now.

The Sorcerer One-Shot
Captain Trips # 1 ( Mike Perkins Cover Variant Edition - 2nd Printing )
Star Wars : Tales - A Jedi's Weapon ( free comic book day variant )
Ultimate Elektra # 1

[jhanic]

Thanks, Pam. After reading your post, it reminded me of someone discussing the Locke and Key issues being graded 10. It was probably you, but I had forgotten.

John

[turtlex]

No problem, John.

I see other comics come up at 10 graded, but the L&K are on my search lists, so I see those more often. That's why I mentioned.

I think there are three of four available on eBay right now.

[Brainslinger]

I came across this interview with Robin Furth (linked from Lilja's site.) I apologise if this is old news, but I think the link from Lilja's site is recent.

http://www.stephenking.pl/sk_wywiady_skpl_051.html

It actually covers a lot of stuff including the upcoming Talisman comics, but thought I'd post it here as Robin mentions the possible disparity between the different histories of Walter in Stephen King's novel and Treachery. She doesn't really explain it except to say she doesn't think there is any disparity. She does mention someone sent a message to her via Peter David. Rings a bell... ;)

[CyberGhostface]

I'm flattered that Furth mentions me in her interview (assuming that it is me, which I will get into later) but the sole reason why I sent the e-mail was because I was hoping I would get some sort've response from her. I sent the e-mail all the way back in April, and I never got a response, so I assumed that it hadn't been read. If she really cared that much about what I said, it would have been nice if she could have responded back. I don't think she's that busy.


For example, after I wrote and scripted The Magician I received an email-via Peter David's website-about the ways in which my version of Marten/Walter's life deviated from the story told by Stephen King. The fan who penned the letter REALLY wanted us to return to what he called the ORIGINAL version of Marten/Walter's story. As you can imagine, I felt pretty depressed after receiving that note, but I took solace in the fact that Steve King loved the story, and didn't feel I'd deviated at all. (The Magician actually grew out of a conversation Steve and I had about Walter, and I was really careful to get his approval on every detail of that work.)

Regarding my e-mail: I basically said how the new origin contradicted the old one (no mention of the rape, etc) and asked if this was going to be addressed in a future issue--that was pretty much it. If there was no deviation from the story, then she could explain how the two fit. But again, she never responded.

But hey...as long as Uncle Stevie says its good, it must be good.

[turtlex]

On the bright side - she got the email and took it to heart.

[Daghain]

I had a feeling she was talking about you too, cyber. :lol:

[CyberGhostface]

Y'know, if asking her if there's going to be any further explanation regarding Walter made her depressed, its a good thing I didn't tell her what I REALLY felt about the book (don't get me started about Walter's incestuous sister) because that would have likely given her a mental breakdown.

[Daghain]

You were *thisclose* :lol:

[CyberGhostface]

So is that Dragon Sand that Cort took?

I don't have that much problems with the new art. It looks similar enough to Lee's so it doesn't seem out of place IMO.

[Brainslinger]

So is that Dragon Sand that Cort took?

Nah, he'd burn inside out if he took that wouldn't he? (That's a ghastly idea isn't it?)

[Brainslinger]

Regarding my e-mail: I basically said how the new origin contradicted the old one (no mention of the rape, etc) and asked if this was going to be addressed in a future issue--that was pretty much it. If there was no deviation from the story, then she could explain how the two fit. But again, she never responded.

I just read this on Lilja's site concerning the extras in Fall of Gilead #2:

(It's not plot related so I won't spoiler-tag it-)

The bonus material is mostly a text by Robin Furth in which she talks about the differences between the books and the comics and why there are differences between the two.

Looks like we might get to see some explanation after all!

[Brainslinger]

I couldn't find a thread for this (although I did see some for later issues!)

I just got this today.

A nice picture of Robert Allgood on the front. I like covers that relate to the contents too.

Overall I really liked this issue. It's picking up nicely, a neat continuation to the story and a bit of action too.

The only think I didn't quite buy was the part when Steven and his ka tet are in the ruins.


Steven:...A door embedded in the wall! More of Marten's doing I'll wager!

Alain's Dad* (Burning Chris?): With respect Steven, I think you'd lose that wager. Our mistake is in thinking this to be a naturally made mountain....
This is a fallen city, overgrown in the midst of the forest.


he implication is that these ruins are near Gilead and these three gunslingers who range far and wide throught that country knew nothing of them.
Unless this is another example of time and space going wonky.

It's small issue though, it's nice to see more ruins in that world. The rest of the scene was great. And it's great to see the return of a couple of characters! I was worried Furth had forgotten about them. I'm not sure they've quite got his voice right, but there seems to be a bit of duality going on which would account for that.

The section at the end explaining reasoning behind certain differences between the books and comics was interesting too. I hoped Robin Furth would discuss Walter's origins there too, but never mind. It's curious that she made mention of Rhea and the snake in the grapefruit in the novel, but not the change to a garotte in the comic. Was that her idea or further along I wonder? In my mind it's a snake anyway.

*Basically an older Alain with lip fur. Heh.

[ola]

The two-pager of the scene w/ everyone in the room is great in this, I like the black-and-white version too (maybe better).

[CyberGhostface]

Hopefully it'll be something like "These comics take place on a different level of the Tower in which Oy went back in time and inadvertenly altered the nexus of reality by defecating on the rose in the vacant lot. This event caused ripples to move through time, changing pivotal events in the process."

In all seriousness, I'm very interested to hear what she says, although it'll probably be something both condescending and self-serving. Like when Peter David pretty much said he didn't give two shits what the fans thought because King approved what he wrote.

Maybe she'll address my letter? One can only hope. ;)

EDIT: I just found out. She doesn't mention Walter's origin at all.

[CyberGhostface]

It makes sense that Rhea wouldn't have her snake in the comics, being that it was in response to Roland killing it earlier, which was cut out from the comic.

That reminds me of how much Rhea's character has been cheapened in the comics--she's almost a nonentity compared to the loathsome creature in the books.

[Brainslinger]

It makes sense that Rhea wouldn't have her snake in the comics, being that it was in response to Roland killing it earlier, which was cut out from the comic.


I thought of that too, but she had it in the books didn't she? You'd think it even less likely there since you saw him shoot it.

Not that big a deal really though.

[Brainslinger]

The two-pager of the scene w/ everyone in the room is great in this, I like the black-and-white version too (maybe better).

Yes, the black and white art is lovely.

I miss the little back stories though*. I hope we have more soon.

*Granted they're not always that good, but it's an interesting enough read.

[turtlex]

Covers :
http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG2RegularCover.jpghttp://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG2SketchCover.jpghttp://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG2VariantCover.jpg
Copyright : Marvel Entertainment, Inc. (http://www.marvel.com)
Copyright : Stephen King (http://www.stephenking.com)
All Rights Reserved.

[CyberGhostface]

Now that the comics have pretty much explained the gap between the flashbacks of Wizard and Glass and the beginning of The Gunslinger, do you prefer the mystery in not knowing, or is it better to know exactly what happened? Now that the comics are almost done, I think I prefer the latter...

[flaggwalkstheline]

I dont consider the comics canonical so they dont bother me in the slight

[pathoftheturtle]

I agree with flaggwalkstheline, but I would prefer to know, if I could.

[razz]

far as I'm concerned the comics, what little I've gotten to read of them, revolve around a different Roland on a different level of the tower.

[Brainslinger]

I think I prefer knowing. I do like mystery to some extent, but this is a story I want to know.

And I accept it as more or less in coninuity with the novels(canon if you like although I prefer not to use that word.) The less part being where it contradicts the novels in ways that can't be explained.

Where there are contradictions, I prefer to see the two accounts as being the same story told from the point of view of separate observers, possibly second hand in the case of the comic. In the same way that there are different versions of the story of King Arthur and Robin Hood, but to a far less extent as some of those legends are totally different. We don't consider which Arthurian legend is 'canon' though do we?

[flaggwalkstheline]

In the same way that there are different versions of the story of King Arthur and Robin Hood, but to a far less extent as some of those legends are totally different. We don't consider which Arthurian legend is 'canon' though do we?

yeah... but the arthurian legends were written by different people (particularly mallory and white) so thats different, and unlike furth/ david and sai king, several centuries kept them from collaborating

[Brainslinger]

I consider the principle the same though. Those who chose to do their own version of the Arthurian legend often or not had access to the stories that came before. They could have made a decision to keep to those points and just add rather than change it.

Anyway, the fact there is collaboration on the DT stories if anything promotes the idea of it all being in continuity (canon if you like) I think.

I do think too much is made of 'canon' though.

[flaggwalkstheline]

I would have no problem with except for that one nagging detail

Sheemy is NOT a cyborg nor did he get his superpowers from robots in a dogan! that irks me to no end!

[Brainslinger]

He isn't a cyborg even now.

I interpreted it as the robot somehow realigned (for want of a better word) his neural pathways increasing something that already existed. I.e. I think he maybe had the knack all the time (i.e. hence being able to find Susan and Roland wherever they were.) His 'treatment' effectively increased his ability and turned him into a teleporter.

That's how I marry the two anyway. (I'm not too sure of it either. Awfully convenient that robot wasn't it?)

[CyberGhostface]

With King Arthur, I suppose some versions are more definitive than others (Le Morte d'Arthur is probably held higher than the Disney cartoon), but there's no one original source. So its a far more subjective matter--personally, I prefer Once and Future King.

With The Dark Tower, its clear that the definitive source will always be the original seven novels for good and for bad. I have no doubt the novels will be read for decades after the comics have been since forgotten.

On a related note, the recent appendixes in the comics have made it clear that a lot of creative decisions are all made by Furth (I.E. how Cort was poisoned and Walter having sexytime with his sister) which changes my opinion a bit on this matter. Prior to this, I had assumed that King had given the entire plot summary and Furth and David are just adapting it. But if Furth is writing it, that's another thing entirely. Its someone else playing with King's toys, so to speak.

Really, King should be writing the comic rather than just serving as 'executive producer' or whatever. I don't think he's that busy.

[CyberGhostface]

Are those spider-legs on the variant?

Also, interesting to hear Rhea being referred to as "Marten's pet" when the two have yet to meet. Both served Farson and the Crimson King, but for their own ends, and Rhea was never Walter's servant.

[Brainslinger]

Rhea was never Walter's servant.

She didn't start that way certainly. We don't know if they teamed up later though. It's a shame that wasn't used in Sorceror. I suspect he would be the one with the upper hand although she'd probably betray him to her own advantage if she got the chance. I remember in Wizard and Glass where Roland reminsces about the fact that Rhea and Jonas were not of the same level of evil as Walter, although they ultimately caused him the most pain via Susan. I think he's one charry man she would genuinely fear.

[CyberGhostface]

Yeah, it would have been nice to see her in Sorcerer.

She could do what she did with Gabrielle, Walter would be outraged ("not part of the plan", etc while secretly mourning her), but he would be powerless to do anything because Farson would need her to use the Grapefruit. (Isn't that what happened in W&G when Jonas took it from her, it wouldn't glow without her or something so they had to take her with them?) So he'd focus his rage on Roland instead.

[DoctorDodge]

JUST finished reading it, and i've gotta say it's probably one of my favourite issues yet. After 7 issues of story we (mostly) knew, 5 issues of story we didn't need to know, and 6 issues of slow (but necessary) build up, it's nice to finally see events unfold that we'd pretty much been waiting for ever since the announcement of the Gunslinger Born.

The gunfight against the slow mutants was pretty awesome to look at, but i think my favourite moment has to be

the return of Sheemie. Now, in some ways, having just read Wizard and Glass, i was expecting it to happen sooner or later, but it still came as a genuine surprise, mainly because there had been no hint of it in the last issue, which is why i'm making doubly sure no one who's read the issue yet spoils this genuine surprise by adding a spoiler tag in a spoiler forum!

So i've gotta admit, i'm looking forward a lot to what happens next in Fall of Gilead!

[pathoftheturtle]

I like fiction that has mysteries in it which are true to life, fiction that helps me to explore the real mysteries. I do not just like mystery for its own sake.
"...some of these things will probably suck, but who really cares? Readers can always go back to the books, which don't suck (some critics would beg to differ)."
--Stephen KingIt's good to be somewhat open to input from others.
...With The Dark Tower, its clear that the definitive source will always be the original seven novels for good and for bad. ...No, that's not clear at all. More probably, it will be six of the original seven novels, plus a revised version of the first one.
"Finite players play within boundaries. Infinite players play with boundaries."
-- James P. Carse,
Finite and Infinite GamesI think that having flexible continuity for TDT is kind of cool. :)

[CyberGhostface]

When I said "seven original novels" I was basically just referring to the series as a whole, including the Revised.

[Woofer]

far as I'm concerned the comics, what little I've gotten to read of them, revolve around a different Roland on a different level of the tower.

:wub:

My Eldred Jonas was not made that way.

[Brainslinger]

(Isn't that what happened in W&G when Jonas took it from her, it wouldn't glow without her or something so they had to take her with them?)

I think she wanted Jonas to think so she would be brought along. I'm don't think she knew that for sure though (or that it was even true.) She was just addicted at that point and couldn't keep away from the ball.

[Brainslinger]

i think my favourite moment has to be

the return of Sheemie. Now, in some ways, having just read Wizard and Glass, i was expecting it to happen sooner or later, but it still came as a genuine surprise, mainly because there had been no hint of it in the last issue, which is why i'm making doubly sure no one who's read the issue yet spoils this genuine surprise by adding a spoiler tag in a spoiler forum!


I loved that too! That was who I was referring to by the 'return of a couple of characters above.'
The second character was the Capsy the mule. Heh.

I kept it vague for the same reason you gave for the spoiler in a spoiler forum.

[CyberGhostface]

Definitely. Making Maerlyn's EEEEEEVIL MIRROR behind Jonas's evil has to be the worst possible backstory conceived for such a character, especially since his original origin (hating the Gunslingers because he failed and was sent West) worked fine. Seriously, what was Furth thinking? :panic:

[turtlex]

Fall of Gilead # 2 Variant Cover variants by TommyLee Edwards.

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/TommyLeeEdwardsVariant1.jpg
http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/TommyLeeEdwardsVariant2.jpg
http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/TommyLeeEdwardsVariant3.jpg

[Brainslinger]

One thing I noticed: the barrels of the gunslingers' revolvers don't look long enough to me. Not just in those pictures, but in the comics too. (I got the impression from the novels they were longer anyway, but possibly my mind was over-exaggerating the size.)

[sandcracker21]

I am a little confused about the DT comic books, i hear they are actually alright?

There is a graphic novel of all 7 i think? but then i read that there are more that arnt in this graphic novel? Also, i read the graphic novel cut out some of the back story that each individual comic had in it (at the end or beggining, not sure)

what is your guys and gals take on this? is it worth it to pick up?

[ola]

There's a lot of posts in the Comic Tower forum that might help:

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/forumdisplay.php?f=12

A quick recap of my own recent discoveries:

- There is bonus non-story material in the individual comics that is left out of the hardcovers. So if you really want that, don't get the hardcovers. Or do what I did and end up with both!

- Gunslinger Born (the first storyline) is pretty much illustrated scenes from the book Wizard and Glass, with some changes to fit the writing style and details that have been added to the comics. Long Road Home and Treachery are mostly new material.

-...and the stories do take some artistic license with the DT series.

I like the artwork so I mostly buy them for that, but hey that's me!

[turtlex]

Welcome to the site sandcracker! And thanks ola, for the direction... we'll work on getting this thread moved over to the Comic Tower.

In the mean time - I like the comics, a lot. We're currently on the fourth arc.

In order : The Gunslinger Born, The Long Road Home, Treachery and currently Fall of Gilead.

The Comic Tower has a King Comics Catalog ( work-in-progress / shameless plug ) which shows each issue. If you want a taste of the artwork - we also have a section there which starts with "Interior Artwork". You can see each cover in the various singlular entries.

Graphic Novels are currently available for the first three arcs. As ola has pointed out - most of the special features in the individual comics are NOT in the graphic novels. Nor are the One-Shot special issues... again the King Comics Catalog is your best bet for seeing all the different issues with each cover ( including all variants ).

Also, there's a Dark Tower checklist if you're into collecting the individual issues ( another shameless plug ).

I, personally, collect everything DT comic related.

[pathoftheturtle]

Yar. :rolleyes: I probably would be upset if I thought that there would never be any way to discard the dumber ideas.
When I said "seven original novels" I was basically just referring to the series as a whole, including the Revised.And my point, basically, was that King's novels really are not perfect, either.

[CyberGhostface]

The books are far from perfect--probably the most uneven series I have ever read--but they're still more definitive than the comics. I mean, look at all the various comics that have spinned off from Star Wars...will any of them be remembered on the same level as the films?

[pathoftheturtle]

No, they won't, but I am still glad that they were published. Lucas often uses that same argument, that people will prefer the mystery of not knowing the story behind this or that detail... right up until they officially release this or that answer.

When Chris Claremont objected to the Origin comic, he said it, too; that it would be better for Wolverine to remain cryptic. I think that that was just sour grapes: Claremont didn't do it himself, so his ego had to say that it shouldn't be done. Don't get me wrong, he really is a great writer, but I am still of the opinion that it's better to put out some bad stories than to stop different creators from trying new things.
I would have no problem with except for that one nagging detail

Sheemy is NOT a cyborg nor did he get his superpowers from robots in a dogan! that irks me to no end!It brings up the nagging issue of whether psychic powers are a gift from God/product of nature or a Random perversion. It's a matter which lies close to the question which I consider to be the most important one in all of TDT: the question of whether Gan is really any different from the Crimson King.


"Poor Sheemie, he begs and blubbers and wets hisself and asks why this is happening, making him no different than the average child who's watching bombs drop out of the sky, lobbed by invaders who are looking to improve his lot in life by blowing it to hell and gone.
And the robot who pours electricity through Sheemie's body like it was mother's milk, well... he don't answer. Maybe because no one programmed him with any answers... and maybe because there ain't any answers, unless you count that life's unfair and death's no better."
--The Long Road Home,
Issue #2To me, that would indeed count as an answer, if it really is the only one. The novels say that the answer is ka. However, what does that mean? Now there is a mystery worth losing sleep over. Give me a book that says, and I'll say that that can always be the definitive source for all canon.

[ola]

To me, the comics are an interpretation of what happened, but not "what actually happened." Sort of an alternate history I guess. I also like the "open continuity" idea...as long as it all gets approved by King at some point!

[Brainslinger]

To me, the comics are an interpretation of what happened, but not "what actually happened."

Yeah, my interpretation is similar. It's 'more or less' what happened. I.e. most of it happened but some stuff might be prone to exaggeration by the narrator, as is the case of legends. (I'm thinking mainly of the eye monster of the Long Road Home, here.)

And the Jonas backstory... yeah that's folklore. ;) I guess you could interpret it as

1) We have the legend of the mirror and the Tower.

2) We have Jonas who started off good (that in itself I don't have a problem with) cut himself on a piece of glass. The sickness and lameness had a factor in turning him bitter, just as such things can do but only because you allow it to. (I.e. he still bears responsibility.)

3) Someone puts the two together, creating a 'legend of Jonas'. Shock, horror! Was the piece of glass a piece of magic mirror? Unlikely, but there's the legend... In affect the piece of 'magic mirror' becomes a metaphor of the evil that appeared in Jonsas's heart during that time.


Still, I wish Robin Furth had left the magic mirror out of Jonas's back story.

[CyberGhostface]

With the "Star Wars" mention, I wasn't so much as saying that the comics shouldn't exist, but in terms of canon, the films will always come first, which was a response to the "Who are we to say what's canon?" argument.

[flaggwalkstheline]

the idea of the magic glass making people bad is lifted straight from hans christian anderson's fairy tale The Snow Queen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Queen

[CyberGhostface]

A homage is one thing (as King has done them multiple times), but it looks like Furth just took the story and changed the details to make it fit DT.

[pathoftheturtle]

Par for the course. <_< What more can you expect when the compiler of research reference books takes the helm? Ms. Furth wouldn't have had to make all of the excuses that she's just made in that Fall of Gilead article on "Creativity and Continuity" if she really knew what creativity actually means. How many times has she described being derivative as a good thing, like it is the natural key to a writer's progress?
With the "Star Wars" mention, I wasn't so much as saying that the comics shouldn't exist, but in terms of canon, the films will always come first, which was a response to the "Who are we to say what's canon?" argument.However, the Fantastic Four comics of the late 60's will always come before the Fantastic Four films, so nevertheless, Who are we to say what's canon? I say that it must depend upon literary purpose, not just petty nerdishness or editorial power trips.

[CyberGhostface]

]However, the Fantastic Four comics of the late 60's will always come before the Fantastic Four films, so nevertheless, Who are we to say what's canon? I say that it must depend upon literary purpose, not just petty nerdishness or editorial power trips.

The comics would come first, in that particular case. The medium doesn't really have anything to do with it, IMO--be it films, books, comics, whatever. The Spider-Man comics, for example have come first. Now, there have been countless other incarnations of Spidey--movies, cartoons, novels, etc--but the comics will always be the definitive work. Everything else is dependent on it to a certain degree.

With the Dark Tower, King created everything from scratch, and over the course of over two decades, wrote seven novels. For better or for worse (and there's plenty of both), it is his creation. Thus, to me at least, there is no doubt that when it comes to The Dark Tower, King's novels will always be the definitive work.

[CyberGhostface]

Does anyone know why he's not writing them? I know he's said "too many chefs spoil the soup" or something, but if it was him alone there wouldn't be much of a problem in that regard. I can't imagine that he's too busy either, being that he has the luxury of writing his novels at his own pace.

[turtlex]

Cyber - I'm going to merge this into the Dark Tower Comics General Discussion thread.

... my guess though, is likely that he's working on novels, you know - writing books and stuff. :D

[ola]

Par for the course. What more can you expect when the compiler of research reference books takes the helm? Ms. Furth wouldn't have had to make all of the excuses that she's just made in that Fall of Gilead article on "Creativity and Continuity" if she really knew what creativity actually means.

Yeah, if I overthink it, I end up frustrated that she seems to be writing it because a.) she's his assistant and b.) knows a lot about the series.

But like cyberghostface says, the books by King are what define the series in the end, so no real damage done. I enjoy the comics in a different way than the books for sure.

A lot of why I like them is the way that Jae Lee and Richard Isanove illustrate this time period in the DT continuum. Them and Michael Whelan are some of the only ones whose DT art matches my own feel for the characters.

[Letti]

I dont consider the comics canonical so they dont bother me in the slight

I think and feel so much the same way.

[obscurejude]

I dont consider the comics canonical so they dont bother me in the slight

I think and feel so much the same way.

Same here. I still consider myself "not knowing," though I've read the comics. I think the comics are deutorocanonical at best and like the great Luther once said, "they may be useful for teaching but holy scripture they are not." He was talking about the apocrypha and not the comics of course. Unless he was a Ves Ka. Why couldn't Martin Luther have showed up instead of King? I would consider that canon.

[CyberGhostface]

O/T, but nice sig. Juno's a great movie. :D

[obscurejude]

Sorry Cyber, very late at night when I posted. Its on topic in my mind, but sometimes that's hard to convey. Plus, I really like the way deuterocanonical rolls of the tongue and I try to use it as much as possible which is still seldom.

Edit: It just dawned on me that the o/t remark may have solely been in relation to the juno compliment. Thanks Cyber. :) I just woke up.

[turtlex]

Quick note - I do not like the way Isanove draws Aileen.

[Brainslinger]

An article on the Marvel site here (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.8540.Dark_Tower~colon~_Fallen_Childre n?utm_source=rss_new_news_feed&utm_medium=feed_link&utm_campaign=rss_feeds).

More a discussion on the pain suffered by young folk in the Dark Tower comics, but there's some artwork there.

That scene concernng Charles Champignon's baby pased me by though! I remember a disturbing scene in the Sorceror but nothing like that. (Thank goodness. Off panel maybe.)

[CyberGhostface]

Yeah, Marten stabs a pregnant woman in Sorcerer, but nothing like the fetus scene. Didn't really affect me, though, because it was more like Furth/David was just trying to be gruesome for the sake of gruesome. I suppose if I had seen it in a movie or if there had been more graphic detail, it might get a rise out of me but...meh. I honestly was more repulsed and disturbed by Stevie's short story about the guy trapped in the outhouse than anything the comics tried.

[ola]

Quick note - I do not like the way Isanove draws Aileen.

I didn't know about the switch when I started reading this arc, and I was like "Aghhh what happened to everyone!?" I was so relieved when I found out that Lee is coming back to draw the next arc.

[turtlex]

I agree, ola, I like Isanove in general, but Jae Lee just owns the characters to me.

[Brainslinger]

Lee's work looks more sumptuous I think. (I think there is an Eastern influence there. I don't mean like manga, more in a classical sense. It really is beautiful.) I think Isanove has a better handle on facial expressions though. Not that Lee's expressions look bad, they just seem to be stuck in the serious-unhappy range.

[Brainslinger]

What I found disturbing wasn't the gore itself (which was pretty minimal.) It was the shere callousness of the situation and Marten feeding her the apple while she was dying. It was darkly amusing (which made it worse.). I looked a it and I thought "There's Walter/Flagg at last."

Don't get me wrong, I think they captured the Marten persona pretty well from the start. He always seemed more serious, even in the books. I remember the Gunslinger stating that he rarely smiled except in spite, while Walter's other faces seem to grin a lot! (No doubt this hearkens back to when they were separate entities considering that in Song of Susanah Mia states that Walter wears different faces but they always grin) It was just nice (possibly not the right word) to see that other side.

[pathoftheturtle]

With the "Star Wars" mention, I wasn't so much as saying that the comics shouldn't exist...:orely:Well, George Lucas may be a bit of a control freak, but he certainly wasn't going to write all of that himself.
With the Dark Tower, King created everything from scratch...Browning
... The Spider-Man comics...will always be the definitive work. Everything else is dependent on it to a certain degree.
...the Dark Tower... is (King's) creation. Thus, to me at least, there is no doubt that when it comes to The Dark Tower, King's novels will always be the definitive work.Swamp Thing.


I still consider myself "not knowing," though I've read the comics.Aye. Plus, there still aren't any plans I know of to tell us what happened between Jericho Hill and Eluria. :arg:


...the great Luther once said, "they may be useful for teaching but holy scripture they are not." He was talking about the apocrypha and not the comics of course. Unless he was a Ves Ka. Why couldn't Martin Luther have showed up instead of King? I would consider that canon.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
--Numbers 23:19

[obscurejude]

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
--Numbers 23:19


"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

--Genesis 6:6

[CyberGhostface]

Browning

There's no comparision at all between what King took from Browning's work and what the comics took from King's novels. King's work may have been inspired in part by various forms of literature and entertainment, and I never said otherwise. But he still created the world and characters that inhabit it. Browning's poem may have inspired the character of Roland and the Tower, but King still made it his own. I don't see how that's comparable to what Furth and David did.


Swamp Thing.

What about it?

[obscurejude]

Browning

There's no comparision at all between Browning and King, and King and the comics. King's work may have been inspired in part by various forms of literature and entertainment, and I never said otherwise. But he still created the world and characters that inhabit it. Browning's poem may have inspired the character of Roland and the Tower, but King still made it his own. I don't see how that's comparable to what Furth and David did.


Swamp Thing.

What about it?

I understand your point Cyber, but there's still plenty of room for comparison between the two. Many King fans know very little about Robert Browning or his works and thus fail to see the immense thematic connections between the two. I'm not necessarily placing you in this camp, but I'd encourage you to take a class on Victorian literature while you're still in college. It was one of the most rewarding things I did in relation to my appreciation for Stephen King.

[Daghain]

Quick note - I do not like the way Isanove draws Aileen.

I don't like the way he's drawn anyone in this arc. :(

<----- wants Jae Lee back

[CyberGhostface]

Ohhh, my mistake... :doh: I was referring to the fetus scene with Farson in my previous post(when I said 'gruesome for the sake of gruesome') not the Marten one.

[ola]

Lee's work looks more sumptuous I think. (I think there is an Eastern influence there. I don't mean like manga, more in a classical sense. It really is beautiful.) I think Isanove has a better handle on facial expressions though. Not that Lee's expressions look bad, they just seem to be stuck in the serious-unhappy range.

Yes, this!

[pathoftheturtle]

...Browning's poem may have inspired the character of Roland and the Tower, but King still made it his own. ...He made everything his own. It may not seem fair to hold TDT accountable for the continuity of all literature, but SK has only himself to blame for that. The series intentionally sets itself as a focus for reinterpreting all other works.

Swamp Thing.

What about it?Well, for one thing, it is a horror series, and thus more relevant here than Spider-Man or Star Wars. Are you familiar with the history of the Swamp Thing canon?





"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
--Numbers 23:19


"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

--Genesis 6:6:) Perhaps you should look at the Hebrew. We could have a great debate now, but I think you're missing my point. What would Luther say?

[Brice]

Ryan's next post is going to be IN Hebrew. :lol:

[obscurejude]

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
--Numbers 23:19


"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

--Genesis 6:6:) Perhaps you should look at the Hebrew. We could have a great debate now, but I think you're missing my point. What would Luther say?

It was just a joke Mike, I wasn't assuming the voice of Luther. From what I remember at the moment, the Hebrew word is translated as "repent" in several other Old Testament passages. I just moved and all my stuff is still in boxes, including my Septuagint. I never knew Hebrew beyond key word/lexical kind of research, but I had four semesters of Koine Greek.

I'm not sure what Luther would say about Genesis 6:6, but I'm almost sure that Augustine talks about it in City of God in relation to the war in heaven over the angels and how that is mirrored in the fall of man (unfortunately I don't have access to this right now either, and I hate hunting through unmarked html documents online). Both inform his views on double predestination as they appear in the articles of the second ecumenical council of Orange. I think this would be a good Luther indicator... I just can't quite remember... I've distanced myself from a lot of this the past couple of years...

I'm pretty sure that Luther would argue that its anthropamorphic language attempting to describe the mind of God, but I'm not certain.

And all the Luther references were jokes... he's just one of my favorite people in history, mostly because of his audacity and humor. I, personally, would love to debate open theological views of God's mind (i.e. limited forknowledge etc...) but I wouldn't take Luther's stance as he undoubtedly believed in the ultimate sovereignty of God in all things. Sorry if I continue to miss your point, but it was kind of cryptic my friend.

[ola]

Many King fans know very little about Robert Browning or his works and thus fail to see the immense thematic connections between the two

What Browning should I get as a curious newbie?

[obscurejude]

Many King fans know very little about Robert Browning or his works and thus fail to see the immense thematic connections between the two

What Browning should I get as a curious newbie?

Hmmm, it shouldn't be hard to find a used copy of his completed works. Childe Roland is usually included, but he has many great dramatic monologues.

The Victorian period is a complicated one, so I'm not really sure what the best approach would be. The context is so important, as many modern staples of thought burst on the scene. Have you ever had a class on Victorian poetry? I took a few in college as well as some seminars in grad school. Its a hard period to understand, but worthwhile. I just don't know where I'd say to start... A British poetry survey was a great place but I don't know if you're in school. You can't really understand the Victorians without understanding what preceded them.

I wish I could be more help. I started a thread here but I don't think its helpful. Most everyone thought studying poetry was a waste of time. E mail a professor. :thumbsup:

Woofer might have some more solid suggestions. :)

[pathoftheturtle]

*snaps out of it*
Sorry if I continue to miss your point, but it was kind of cryptic my friend.Absolutely. My bad. Look at the one-word answers I was giving to Cyber in that post. I probably should wait until my thoughts are more developed before I post. :blush:

Your having brought up the matter of Biblical canon got me to thinking a lot about the prophets, and I tried to communicate all of it with a single verse... and I didn't choose too well. :blush: The possible connotations of nachum is just a tangent that we shouldn't need to go into here. What I wanted to get at is probably better expressed by Isaiah 46:11 --
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it. :orely:When a man writes a book about the world, and things don't turn out the way he wants, he has to change his book. When God writes a book about the world, and things don't turn out the way He wants, He changes the world.

[ola]

Have you ever had a class on Victorian poetry? I took a few in college as well as some seminars in grad school. Its a hard period to understand, but worthwhile. I just don't know where I'd say to start... A British poetry survey was a great place but I don't know if you're in school. You can't really understand the Victorians without understanding what preceded them.

Nope, my poetry education is whatever my high school teachers were into, plus the beat poets I got into as a teenager. Right now I'm in school but for a technical degree - not much opportunity for those kinds of English classes there, either.

It's good to know more or less how to come at it, though. I wasn't thinking about context at all - I feel like my literature background is pretty limited, despite how much I like to read!

[obscurejude]

*snaps out of it*
Sorry if I continue to miss your point, but it was kind of cryptic my friend.Absolutely. My bad. Look at the one-word answers I was giving to Cyber in that post. I probably should wait until my thoughts are more developed before I post. :blush:

Your having brought up the matter of Biblical canon got me to thinking a lot about the prophets, and I tried to communicate all of it with a single verse... and I didn't choose too well. :blush: The possible connotations of nachum is just a tangent that we shouldn't need to go into here. What I wanted to get at is probably better expressed by Isaiah 46:11 --
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it. :orely:When a man writes a book about the world, and things don't turn out the way he wants, he has to change his book. When God writes a book about the world, and things don't turn out the way He wants, He changes the world.

Its cool Mike, no reason to :blush:. I was just having a hard time following you. In all fairness, King portrays himself as God within the series. That's part of the irony- his metafiction isn't up to metaphysical scrutiny. :)

I do think of the comics like Luther thought of the apocrypha. I think the comics are useful and even authoritative on occasion. But the word "canon" means the source material that is used to determine what else belongs. The comics remain a far cry from that in my opinion. I believe the Maccabean revolt happened and that Hannukah is a fine holiday, but I don't think of 1st and 2nd Maccabees in the same light as Isaiah and Jeremiah. Just my opinion. No offense to Jerome, the Latin Vulgate, or any Catholics. My purposes here do not extend beyond analogy.

Edit: And now we're back on topic. :D

[obscurejude]

Nope, my poetry education is whatever my high school teachers were into, plus the beat poets I got into as a teenager. Right now I'm in school but for a technical degree - not much opportunity for those kinds of English classes there, either.

It's good to know more or less how to come at it, though. I wasn't thinking about context at all - I feel like my literature background is pretty limited, despite how much I like to read!

Context, context, context, and the greatest of these is context. I'm not trying to give you the impression that its impossible. :couple: I understand the feeling of inadequacy when it comes to literary studies, believe me. Baby steps ola. :) Now its on your radar and it will be easier to recognize opportunities when they present themselves.

[Brainslinger]

And of course Childe Roland was included in the back of The Dark Tower. (At least it was in my UK Hardback edition.) I'll admit, I found it a bit hard going though.

[jhanic]

It was at the back of the US editions also. As an English major (lo, these many years ago) I didn't find it all that hard going. I had read it in one of my college classes.

John

[Patrick]

Many King fans know very little about Robert Browning or his works and thus fail to see the immense thematic connections between the two

What Browning should I get as a curious newbie?

Hi ola,

How about the Browning poem that started King on his DT journey? As noted in the posts above, it's in various editions of the books, but you can also read it online here:

Robert Browning's Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came (1855) (http://www.stephenking.com/darktower/childe_roland.html)

Also you can read a short bit about the poem on Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childe_Roland_to_the_Dark_Tower_Came).

Of course you can always Google for more analysis or for other Browning poems to suit your level of interest thereafter.

[Brice]

Soliloquy Of The Spanish Cloister (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/rb/cloister.html)
The Bishop Orders His Tomb at St. Praxed's. Rome (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/rb/bishop/text.html)
Fra Lippo Lippi (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/rb/lippi/text.html)
A Toccata of Galuppi's (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/rb/toccata.html)
Caliban upon Setebos
Or, Natural Theology in the Island (http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/267.html)
Rabbi Ben Ezra (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/rb/rabbibenezra.html)
Cleon (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/rb/cleon.text.html)
Abt Vogler (http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/262.html)

You can also find a good amount of Browning here:

Robert Browning page (http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poet/37.html)

There are also quite a bit of writings (with commentary) by some of Browning's contemporaries on the Victorian Web site.

Edit: Oh I also just found this: You'll be wanting The Complete Poetic and Dramatic Works of Robert Browning ("My Last Duchess", p. 252) (http://www.questia.com/library/literature/robert-browning.jsp)

Enjoy, Ola! :)

[Patrick]

Personally I've only ever read his poem about Childe Rolande. Thanks for those additional links, Brice. I may just check them out. :couple:

Back on the original subject of this thread: I have enjoyed the comic storyline, but with each passing issue, I ignored more and more of the stories in the back of the issues. Starting with the shards of evil glass thing, those things generally just didn't sit well with me.

[MonteGss]

Quick note - I do not like the way Isanove draws Aileen.

I didn't know about the switch when I started reading this arc, and I was like "Aghhh what happened to everyone!?" I was so relieved when I found out that Lee is coming back to draw the next arc.

I HATE the way the characters look now. Every one of them are pretty bad. Cuthbert and Alain? Horrible.

I didn't know Lee was coming back so this is VERY good news for me. :D

[CyberGhostface]

Well, for one thing, it is a horror series, and thus more relevant here than Spider-Man or Star Wars. Are you familiar with the history of the Swamp Thing canon?

I read Alan Moore's first trade, but that's it. Why?

[Daghain]

Ditto.

[pathoftheturtle]

Edit: And now we're back on topic. :D:D Yay!
:beat: Hey, wait... that didn't last long. Browning?
I started a thread here but I don't think its helpful. Most everyone thought studying poetry was a waste of time.:orely: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... Woofer... don't forget to count me... :Hmm: Maybe you should try bumping it.

E mail a professor. :thumbsup:Yar, or just buy one of their textbooks. It never bothers the professors who write them when you do that. Personal instruction or regular classes are well and good if you're in a position for it, but self-education is a great alternative if it fits your resources.
...all the Luther references were jokes... I know, I understood that, but what I'm seriously wondering is what Martin Luther would think of Stephen King. :unsure:
...the word "canon" means the source material that is used to determine what else belongs. ...Here's what I've been talking about, all along. When a work of fiction attempts to redefine traditional standards on the very concept of fictional canon, and fails, is that a work which thereafter qualifies for standard traditions?
...In all fairness, King portrays himself as God within the series. That's part of the irony- his metafiction isn't up to metaphysical scrutiny. :) ...I don't know how much irony there is in it, but it sure was disappointing. There's some great speculation on extra-dimensional physics in the fiction of science, but King seems to think that the concept is mostly about the science of fiction.
Fantastic Four is not any more literary than Spider-Man, but I think that the former title is more important to consider here, because it was there that Marvel Comics first determined their approach to time-travel, which led eventually to their use of parallel universes, as a plot device, in setting policy on canon. This is rather different from the system endorsed by Lucasfilm and Lucas Books, but ironically similar to the rule of Gan. Instead of asking whether Furth's comics belong with T.S. Eliot and Robert Browning, maybe we should be asking whether King's novels better belong with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
If we're going to complain that events in the comics are inconsistent to the timelines of TDT characters, we should realize that they were hardly internally consistent, in the first place. If we're going to say that her detailing of TDT religious beliefs are absurd, we need to see that King's generalizations weren't exactly sensible, either. If we're going to say that borrowing from Hans Christian Andersen is corny, we need to ask ourselves, hey, what about borrowing from Harry Potter? :P
Don't get me wrong; I'm still a SK fan, but it's hard to take him really seriously.

[obscurejude]

...In all fairness, King portrays himself as God within the series. That's part of the irony- his metafiction isn't up to metaphysical scrutiny. :) ...I don't know how much irony there is in it, but it sure was disappointing.

The irony, as I see it, is that his god complex renders the fantastical element of the series impotent. I hate his presence in the books as I've explained in other threads. Some of this is informed by Tolkien's essay, "On Fairy Stories" but also my own reading experience. The more I think about it all, the less likely that I'll ever read anything beyond Wizard and Glass again. And that's not hyperbole.

I don't have time to address the rest of your points right now Mike, but mayhap later. :)

And about the Browning thread, I never really got over how bad it started. I could never bring myself to engage in it again, at least not to the extent of my original intentions. Woofer came along a few months after it was started, unfortunately. She is incredibly apt in all things literary. I just resorted to e mailing papers and long pm's. You, however; are welcome to bump it if you'd like. Maybe some newer folks will enjoy talking about Browning.

[pathoftheturtle]

You, however; are welcome to bump it if you'd like. Maybe some newer folks will enjoy talking about Browning.I might. That could be cool.
I don't have time to address the rest of your points right now Mike, but mayhap later. :)
No biggie. I certainly don't expect anyone to hang on my every word. I'm just really glad that you all are here. :)

...The more I think about it all, the less likely that I'll ever read anything beyond Wizard and Glass again. ...I probably will. They're not that bad, in their own ways. I wasn't trying to say that we should flush those books, just that each work really needs to be appreciated in its own way. A lot of folken seem to be saying, "Not all writers can capture my imagination and make me believe their stories easily, without the need for critical thinking." Personally, though, I can't think of any writers who do that to me. I always think critically about books, and I think that that may be the best part.



Are you familiar with the history of the Swamp Thing canon?

I read Alan Moore's first trade, but that's it. Why?:) Good stuff, isn't it? His later issues got even better. I don't know if we can really call Moore's version "the definitive Swamp Thing," but it is the most respected. Why, if not for his work, I doubt that making TDT into comics would have even become possible.:orely:

[Wuducynn]

Ditto.

X2

[turtlex]

tritto

( can't wait for Jae Lee to return to the Tower )

[pathoftheturtle]

Sometimes I wonder whether the last three TDT volumes would have been better if it hadn't been Robin Furth that SK hired after his accident.

[CyberGhostface]

Sometimes I wonder whether the last three TDT volumes would have been better if it hadn't been Robin Furth that SK hired after his accident.

Did she have any influence on the plot? I thought she just organized all the information for King. As much as I dislike her as a writer, I thought her concordances were very good and helpful most of the time.

[pathoftheturtle]

Including her essays?:orely:

I don't know what kind of influence she might have had at that time... I just wonder. I put that post here on this thread because it was here that I pointed out that S.K. is the type of author who tries to please his fans, and said that R.F. is a King fan of a certain type. :|

[Lily-sai]

Am I a sad nerd for I burst into tears when I read this poem in GtG?
(mind you, I'm a bit hormonal now. :innocent: )

Time flies, knells call, life passes, so hear my prayer.
Birth is nothing but Death begun, so hear my prayer.
Death is speechless, so hear my prayer.
This is my friend, who served his ka and his tet. Say true.
May the forgiving glance of S'mana heal his heart. Say please.
May the arms of Gan rise him from the Darkness of this earth. Say please.
Surround him, Gan, with light.
Fill him, Chloe, with strength.
If he is thirsty, give him water in the clearing.
If he is hungry, give him food in the clearing.
May his life on this earth and the pain of his passing become as a dream to his waking soul, and let his eyes fall upon every lovely sight; let him find the friends that were lost to him, and let every one whose name he calls call his in return.
This is my friend, who lived well, loved his own, and died as ka would have it.
Each man owes a Death. This is my friend. Give him Peace.

Perhaps because my Grandpa is now close to the clearing, this moved me deeply. oh, sigh.

[turtlex]

Liisa - I don't think you're a sad nerd, or any kind of nerd. :couple:

[sarajean]

i do. but she's just my kind of nerd. :wub:

[jhanic]

Lisa, you and your grandfather are in my thoughts and prayers.

John

[Lily-sai]

thank you big-big, john, i really appreciate that.

:grouphug:

[wizardsrainbow]

I just won an eBay auction for both variants for $66. The comic store in NYC said they did not get the Isanove variant but said they would have asked $75 for it!

[turtlex]

David - That's awesome. It's getting increasingly hard to find the variants!

[Brainslinger]

I got my issue today. Rather like how this arc is shaping up. I'm not sure of the Aileen stuff though. I like the character, and I understand Furth's wish to expand on the character, I just wonder if she's taking the feminist stuff a little far. Then again, I'm male. ;) I can't help thinking that if Aileen had had a greater part in Roland's life that she'd have been mentioned beyond a couple of sentences in the books though. (Then again, maybe Roland did mention her off-page as it were. ;))

Oh, and I think Sheemie would be inclined to refer to Cuthbert and Alain by their 'Hambry names', but maybe I'm nitpicking.

[turtlex]

Just got through the issue and honestly, I hate the way Isanove is interpreting Aileen. I just don't like his take on her at all.

Oh and what the heck was that stuff at the end, with Aileen?

I mean ... I loved that story/plot device the first time I saw it ... when it was YENTL !!

I do not like that Furth is going this way at all. I mean, what? If Aileen stays in town, people will be... "Gee, where the heck is Aileen lately? And that new gunslinger lad, gosh he looks vaguely familiar."

The other option, sincerely the only one that makes sense, is for Aileen to leave town. Completely. Like, at night, so no one sees. Gee, that's very Gunslinger-like. :rolleyes:

[wizardsrainbow]

Pam, yes, especially the black and white sketch is very hard to find now. As for Eileen, I couldn't agree more. I love her character but not where it is headed currently, and frankly, I much preferred Jae's depiction of her. Just my opinion. Overall, I do like Richard's artwork, but Jae still captures my #1 spot. And yes, Jae will definitely be doing ALL the pencils for the next arc. Mayhap, I will even get a preview. :drool:

[turtlex]

David - I cannot wait for Jae's return. I, too, appreciate Isanove as an artist - but Jae's work just seems to fit everything better for me. Especially Aileen.

[Brainslinger]

I do not like that Furth is going this way at all. I mean, what? If Aileen stays in town, people will be... "Gee, where the heck is Aileen lately? And that new gunslinger lad, gosh he looks vaguely familiar."

Heh. I agree. It's not like the gunslingers wouldn't keep track of their current apprentices, etc. The only way I can see this working is if they're plunged into conflict pretty quickly in which case the new 'lad' with the gun would be appreciated.

Trouble is... the whole girl dressed up as man going to war thing has been done before.. a couple of times.

It might explain Roland's lack of mentioning her more often in the books though. Maybe he never spies her...

No. I'm not sure I buy that either.

[turtlex]

Um, I wouldn't buy it. Not even on sale. :D

[CyberGhostface]

http://bbs.cnnas.com/cn/attachments/month_0710/20071016_0f43c73aae00bf4dfcc4i2ANbKxVdsyE.gif

[turtlex]

?

[Brainslinger]

Heh. That's the one.

Then there's this.

Not quite on topic but... sort of related. I think you'll get a kick out of it anyway.

EDIT-
Ooh! I didn't expect it to put the video in the post using the URL tag.

[turtlex]

:lol: !!!

Aileen looked almost that convincing!

[Daghain]

Ha! That's fantastic!

[CyberGhostface]

?

It's from Mulan. It's about a girl who pretends to be a male soldier so she can go to war in her sick father's place.

Mulan

[turtlex]

Oh, CG, that's perfect then !! Talk about proof a story has been around the block a couple of times!

( sorry, I'm not up on the Disney stuff )

[CyberGhostface]

It's a very good film. It would have been better if they played the story straight instead of having Eddie Murphy as the talking dragon for comic relief, but I guess that's required for Disney...

[CyberGhostface]

I actually just thought of an interesting way that Walter/Gabrielle subplot could have been handled without pulling out the incest crap.

***HARRY POTTER VII SPOILERS***
In Harry Potter VII, it was revealed that Snape had worked for Voldemort prior to the series' beginning, and had secretly loved Lily Potter. It was Voldemort killing Lily that made him deflect over to the 'good' side.

I think this could have worked for Walter and Gabrielle, although it would be tweaked a bit.

So Walter/Marten, despite all the manipulations and sorceries he's used on her, loves Gabrielle deep-down. Rhea causes Roland to shoot her, and the Crimson King is in on it somehow. They don't do this to spite Walter, but it enrages him anyway. So Roland is still the primary cause for Gabrielle's death, as King originally planned (whereas Furth made Walter the motivating factor) and it still affects Walter.

Prior to this, Walter has been loyal to the Crimson King. But it's Gabrielle's death that causes him to turn against Old Los. Not so much as to turn good and work for the White (he likes being evil too much), but instead to overthrow the King when all's said and done.

I think that would have worked better than what Furth did, and overall would have complimented King's initial mythology better and flesh out Walter's motivations a bit more. Thoughts?

[wahlers]

Does anybody have any info on if Marvel plans on making a 6th hardcover of the back stories once all the individual series hardcovers are out?

Also, since the Marvel Omnibuses are giant hardcovers usually collecting between 30-35 issues in a single volume for $100, I was thinking that once all the individual books are out, Marvel may turn around and triple-dip and put the entire comic run in a single Omnibus. I can't say that I would be too upset though, especially if they included all the back stories, maps, etc. in it.

Anybody have any other info or thoughts on this?

[CyberGhostface]

I don't know about the backstories, but I do know they are planning a massive omnibus with all the issues at some point. They might have the extra features.

[Merlin1958]

I don't know about the backstories, but I do know they are planning a massive omnibus with all the issues at some point. They might have the extra features.

Sounds like a move Benjamin Linus might make (as he rubs his hands together demonically)!!!! LOL LOL

[Brainslinger]

Does anybody have any info on if Marvel plans on making a 6th hardcover of the back stories once all the individual series hardcovers are out?


I seem to remember reading somewhere that they will, but it might have been a dream.

Not much help there was I?

As for an omnibus edition of all the comics, I wouldn't be surprised either way.

[turtlex]

I don't know about the backstories, but I do know they are planning a massive omnibus with all the issues at some point. They might have the extra features.

CG - Where did you find this info? I haven't seen anything regarding an omnibus. No announcements, nothing at the SDCC.... Can you link me, please?

Thankee.

[Cloysterpete]

I always hate the huge waits for the Omnibus volumes, for examples one out soon include one for Astonishing X-Men issues 01-twenty odd and one for the first two Ultimates volumes.

What seems more likely is that they will release deluxe editions first, two story arcs per oversized (28cm/11") hardcover then after that we could see an omnibus volume.

[CyberGhostface]

CG - Where did you find this info? I haven't seen anything regarding an omnibus. No announcements, nothing at the SDCC.... Can you link me, please?

Thankee.

No sources at the moment, sorry--on thedarktower.net someone who worked on the comics would post from time to time, and they mentioned offhandedly that they were planning on doing hardcovers for the individual arcs and an omnibus collection when it was over. I forget who it was--it wasn't Peter David or Jae Lee or anyone really big.

I do remember that there was released art prior to the release of the issues that had Jonas having the CK eye sigul on his belt. The fans pointed out that it was out of character for Jonas (as he said in the book how he disliked it), so the comics guy thanked us for informing him and it was fixed when the issue came out.

[CyberGhostface]

I was looking at Jae Lee's comments in Wizard #210 on why he redesigned the Crimson King:

"The Crimson King had to be menacing. I felt that if I drew him the way he was described in the novels, he might be less effective as a villain. A fat man with a white beard might be horrifying in real life, but in the pages of a comic, not so much. I decided to draw him in his transitional state between human and spider, giving him a more villainous appearance."

First off--the Crimson King (as depicted in the DT7) wasn't supposed to be frightening, he was supposed to be a pathetic old man. That was the point.

Secondly--the white-bearded wizard look doesn't look menacing? Saruman begs to differ.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FcUNmS380Gg/SW6_cgLxwLI/AAAAAAAAAH4/qOSQYFgvYBk/S600/SARUMAN!!!.jpg

I used to like the new Crimson King in the comics, but rereading his appearances he came off to me as being nothing more than big cliche. Silly as King's was, at least it was something different and out of the ordinary.

[turtlex]

Um, Gandalf was white... Saruman was sorta gray.

[CyberGhostface]

My point still stands, though. The old man CK could have been scary in the comics. Look how Boehmke drew him--

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m168/Los_The_Red/515.jpg

[Letti]

One thing caught my attention:


The Crimson King had to be menacing. I felt that if I drew him the way he was described in the novels, he might be less effective as a villain. A fat man with a white beard might be horrifying in real life, but in the pages of a comic, not so much. I decided to draw him in his transitional state between human and spider, giving him a more villainous appearance."

Fat?!?! Where did King ever write that CK was fat? Did I miss it? I don't remember anything like that.

[turtlex]

Letti - I think he was just using that as an example of what might be "horrifying" in real life but wouldn't be scary in a comic... not regarding the CK specifically.

CG - Boehmke has it right there, without a doubt !!

[Letti]

Letti - I think he was just using that as an example of what might be "horrifying" in real life but wouldn't be scary in a comic... not regarding the CK specifically.

CG - Boehmke has it right there, without a doubt !!

I see. But he is talking about the character of CK, right? So it is still strange.

[turtlex]

You're absolutely, right, Letti. He's not being clear at all.

[Brainslinger]

CG - Boehmke has it right there, without a doubt !!

I agree. The eyes go a loooong way to making an otherwise normal looking person scary. In fact human looking beings with weird eyes look scarier in some ways than something with a monstrous appearance. Something about a creature being on the edge. Almost normal... but subverted. Twisted. This goes for the red eyes you see in that picture and the all white eyes of the deadite creatures we see in The Evil Dead films. Or THAT scene in Amercian Werewolf in London. If you've seen it, I'm sure you know the one I mean. Much scarier than all the actual werewolf stuff put together.

That being said, I did like the look of the comic version of the Crimson King, but I wish we'd seen at least some pictures in his completely human form.

DT 7 Spoilers: If he's anything like Mordred he'd probably need to remain in human form most of the time. He's fully grown so might not 'burn' food as fast and he might have gained more control, but just to think properly and scheme his human form would be required.

As for the 'fat man' I think Lee might have been mentally substituting Santa Claus a bit too much. ;) Mind you with the red eyes and huge canine teeth, that's a pretty scary image too.

[flaggwalkstheline]

My point still stands, though. The old man CK could have been scary in the comics. Look how Boehmke drew him--

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m168/Los_The_Red/515.jpg

wow that guy looks like he could kick saurons ass and maybe even make morgoth himself a bit nervous!

[Letti]

In fact human looking beings with weird eyes look scarier in some ways than something with a monstrous appearance. Something about a creature being on the edge. Almost normal... but subverted. Twisted.

You are so right! That's why the comic version of the Crimson King is.. sorry to say this but.. cheap.
It's perfectly drawn there is no question about that. But still way too over-used.

[turtlex]

No cover shot yet, but here's the write up, with Jae Lee returning to Cover and Pencils. :clap:

COVER BY: Jae Lee
WRITER: Peter David / Robin Furth
PENCILS: Jae Lee
LETTERED BY: VC - Chris Eliopoulos

THE STORY:
Beginning a bold new story arc featuring Roland Deschain and his beleaguered ka-tet on the run following the complete destruction of their beloved city of Gilead! And when such as Gilead falls, the pillars of reality itself—the six beams holding all of existence together—begins to crumble. The satanic plan of the Crimson King to return all of existence to the primal state of chaos is nigh. Plus, just in time for the fun, it’s the return of master storyteller Jae Lee to the role of penciler! Don’t miss it.

Cardstock Cover/Parental Advisory…$3.99

©2009 Stephen King. All rights reserved.

PRICE: 3.99
IN STORES: November 25, 2009

[jhanic]

This is the one I've been really waiting for!

John

[Ari_Racing]

No Richard Isanove? :(

[Ari_Racing]

FUCK! I'm missing it for only a week! I leave NYC on the 17th!

[Gris]

Ari, Pick up a copy here in the states. There are comic book stores in every town.

This is finally making me excited about the series again. Hopefully they do it justice!

[Ari_Racing]

I would love to, but I leave before its release :(

[Gris]

Sorry Ari, read that backwards. I thought you meant you were leaving TO NYC on the 17th.

[wizardsrainbow]

I think Jae is going to do a kick-ass job with this last arc. Marvel is going back to its ace penciler on this one. I am so looking forward to this story.

[turtlex]

Isanove Regular Cover
http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG4Regular.jpg

Isanove Sketch Cover
http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG4VariantIsanove.jpg

David LaFuente Variant Cover
http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG4VariantDAVID_LAFUENTE.jpg

Story: As Farson’s men fill the Barony, Steven Deschain and his band of twenty gunslingers prepare for the battle that will decide the future of Gilead. Meanwhile, Roland finds his escape from prison in a most surprising visitor.

[wizardsrainbow]

I just picked it up today. My eight-year-old daughter read it on the way home. I have yet to read it. Go figure!

[RUBE]

As fast as everyone is dying off, it makes me wonder how are they going to fill the ten-year gap between the events currently happening and Jericho Hill. (According to the novels, Cuthbert was 25 when he died and he was 14 or 15 when he was in Mejis.)

[turtlex]

This issue, for me, was just boring. Very flat.

I'm counting the days until Jae Lee is back doing the art for Dark Tower, Isanove is just not doing it for me... especially this issue. What is with Aileen? And the horrible dark shading they're using has basically removed all facial expression. :pullhair:

[Brainslinger]

I seem to remember the black shading on facial features on Jae Lee's art too. (Much as I like his art.) I've yet to read this one though. I didn't realise it was only issue 4 though, I thought they'd got beyond that. I'm losing track!

[turtlex]

I seem to remember the black shading on facial features on Jae Lee's art too. (Much as I like his art.) I've yet to read this one though. I didn't realise it was only issue 4 though, I thought they'd got beyond that. I'm losing track!

Check out the shading in this issue... I'll be interested in your reaction. I found it way over the top - and nothing close to the stuff Jae Lee did - which I found to be more for definition and emotion.

This stuff, I'm looking at now - its almost like they're trying to hide the faces!

And don't even ask me about Aileen. :nope:

[Brainslinger]

And don't even ask me about Aileen. :nope:

I've actually mostly enjoyed this arc... apart from the Aileen stuff. I don't have a problem with such a strong female warrior character (I love Susannah for example) it just feels rather shoehorned in considering how little King has to say about the character in his books. I.e. I think it's a good thing she was expanded on, but perhaps not in this way to this extent. That being said I understand Robin Furth's reasoning behind it.

Actually it occurs to me you're probably talking about the art. Still yet to get this issue (I'll probably order it this week) but I prefer Jae Lee's version of Aileen too. For someone who reckons he has trouble drawing girls (as opposed to more freaky stuff like monsters and robots) he does draw some pretty faces. Perhaps too pretty in Cuthbert's case. ;) If we could have Lee's aesthetics with Isanove's facial expressions ( I think the characters under his pencils show a bit more emotional range.) that would be great.

[Ruthful]

I like the cover they rejected more than the approved cover, even though it makes absolutely no sense.

[CyberGhostface]

I don't have a problem with such a strong female warrior character (I love Susannah for example) it just feels rather shoehorned in considering how little King has to say about the character in his books. I.e. I think it's a good thing she was expanded on, but perhaps not in this way to this extent. That being said I understand Robin Furth's reasoning behind it.

Yeah, she's pretty much a Mary Sue in my eyes.

Per Wikipedia:

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

That seems to fit her to a 'T'.

[RUBE]

We are down to just eight remaining comics between The Fall of Gilead and The Battle of Jericho Hill arcs. There is a lot of material to cover in these few issues considering there is almost ten years worth of events between Roland's adventures in Mejis and Jericho Hill. Somethings are bound to be left out or not fleshed out how we would like. Is there anything that you really hope to see? What do you predict that we will see?

For my own prediction, I think we will experience a beamquake in either the final issue of this arc or the first of the next arc. I am currently re-reading Song of Susannah and just read this passage:

"He had been through this once before, when Gilead fell and civilization as he then understood it had ended. When he had been cast loose to wander with Cuthbert and Alain and Jamie and the few others of their ka-tet. One of the six Beams had broken then, and almost certainly not the first."

Whether Robin Furth actually shows us this or not, she did at least set it up earlier. In one of the first arcs she had an extra story about the beams. In that story she said that a beam ran through Gilead, directly through the city in fact. Some on this website called foul because logic begged why Roland would not simply follow this beam to the tower. The above paragraph explains why. The beam broke and surely its collapse helped bring about the destruction of Gilead itself. I predict (and hope) that Furth must have included this detail to set up this beamquake.

Again, what are your predictions/hopes for the end?

[turtlex]

I hope they actually finish Aileen's storyline... and not stupidly.

I am looking forward to Jae Lee's return.

[CyberGhostface]

I'm hoping that Rhea appears and we get to see her finally get her comeuppance. (And in doing so, I hope it's revealed that she made Roland kill Gabrielle, not Walter's jealous incestuous sister) But I'm a bit doubtful that we will get to see it at this point in the storyline.

I'm also hoping that, at the very least, the relationship between Walter's two origins are clarified. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Brice]

I predict CGF will propose to Robin Furth. :couple::P

[CyberGhostface]

I don't have a personal vendetta against Furth. I just don't think she's a good writer; whenever she adds something completely new to King's canon, it just falls flat on its face. But I'm sure she's a nice person.

[Brice]

I was just messing with you, dude. :lol:

[CyberGhostface]

I know that, but it seems I've gotten a reputation here for hating Furth.

[turtlex]

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/636/medium/FG1RegularCover.jpg

Amazon has a pre-order up for the Fall of Gilead Hardcover. Not sure if this is the final cover choice or not, but it's what they have listed there.

Some details :

Hardcover: 176 pages
Publisher: Marvel Comics (March 9, 2010)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0785129510
ISBN-13: 978-0785129516

Product Description :
A horrified Steven Deschain learns that the deadly seeing sphere called Maerlyn's Grapefruit has been stolen from his chambers! Far worse, when he enters his wife's room to arrest her for the theft, his son Roland is standing over her body with a gun in his hand. The youngest gunslinger has perhaps committed the most hideous crime of all! Continuing the epic saga based on the best-selling Dark Tower novels by the master Stephen King. Collects Dark Tower: The Fall of Gilead #1-6, and Sorcerer.

The key thing listed above.... Hardcover will include Sorcerer !

[CyberGhostface]

The key thing listed above.... Hardcover will include Sorcerer !

Good to hear. I know some people were worried that it wouldn't be included.

[pathoftheturtle]

Maybe you should post on more different threads. :innocent: Srsly, I'd like that. :)
...there is almost ten years worth of events between Roland's adventures in Mejis and Jericho Hill. ...I predict that in the comics, it will turn out that it happened on the next day. :P

[CyberGhostface]

I really only talk about the comics on the forums because I've pretty much exhausted 90% of my thoughts on the novels on thedarktower.net before it went down. I haven't read the novels themselves in years and I don't have any plans to at the moment. (I'm trying to read different authors, and my schedule is fairly busy to boot) I still love the series, I just don't know what to say about it anymore.

When Under the Dome (and more King-related stuff) comes out, I'll hopefully end up talking about that. And I'll try looking it at the other forums and see if there's anything that interests me, but I dunno...it's harder for me to get involved now.

[turtlex]

CG - I never thought Sorcerer would be included !! I think we've talked about that in other threads. They've never included the One-Shots before - so I thought that was very cool to see.

[Daghain]

Pre ordered!

[Brainslinger]

CG - I never thought Sorcerer would be included !! I think we've talked about that in other threads. They've never included the One-Shots before - so I thought that was very cool to see.

I suppose the fact it was a part of the story rather than an encyclopaedia of 'Mid-World stuff' is the reason. Good news though. (Not that I buy the GNs myself, but it's great those who wait will get to see the full story.)

[darkwolf]

I was thinking of just picking up the single issues, as I heard (at least with the Gunslinger Born collection) that there are some pretty sweet prose stories at the end of each issue that sadly and strangely wasn't collected into the hardcover...

[CyberGhostface]

I suspect they will be collected in some future collection. The quality was pretty hit or miss, IMO, and not worth going through the back market unless you can find all the issues together costing less than the hardcover.

[ola]

Good thing I didn't buy Sorcerer!

[turtlex]

I was thinking of just picking up the single issues, as I heard (at least with the Gunslinger Born collection) that there are some pretty sweet prose stories at the end of each issue that sadly and strangely wasn't collected into the hardcover...

darkwolf - There is a lot of stuff missing from the hardcovers that are in the individual issues. Maps, essays and interviews mostly.

This goes for each arc so far, not just Gunslinger Born.

Personally, I think it's worth the $3.99 for each individual issue - but I'm sort of a rabid comic collector ( gee, folks, don't argue :lol: ) and want everything DT comic related.