Miracles... do you believe in them???

[Odetta]

I'm having a nice little debate with my sister-in-law at this very moment about miracles.

She believes in them, I don't...


discuss your opinions!

I realize this could rapidly become a religious discussion, but we already have a thread for that.

[jayson]

good thread O. For my part, I don't believe in miracles, per se. I believe there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for things, though in some cases we may never know what that explanation is. Lack of evidence is not proof of something else. I don't have an issue with the use of the word miracle to describe events like that where the scientific explanation evades us, so long as the word is intentionally used metaphorically. Make sense?

[Wuducynn]

Yes I do, because I have had personal experiences with one. My brother awoke cured from his cancer which was going to kill him about fifteen years ago and he has been completely free of it since. One day he was losing the battle and dying and the next it was gone and the doctors could not believe it happened.
I also have read about real miracles and spoken with folk about miracles that have happened to them.

[Wuducynn]

OT R_of_G I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your new avatar..I'm a big-time V fan.

[jayson]

matthew, that's great, whatever it's called!

also, v friggin' rules. i prefer the book to the movie, but love both.

[ZoNeSeeK]

I dont believe in supernatural powers, but I think there's always room for extreme cases of luck & coincidence, especially when it involves things that are complex. Strange shit definitely happens, and our minds can struggle to deal with the how and why, but its all within the realm of tangible possibility.

We don't know everything, so for me its more logical for 'miraculous' events to be an indicator of our lack of understanding about a particular occurance rather than a 3rd party influencing the natural course of things. Rain falling from the sky in a region stricken by drought was a miracle once upon a time aswell.

[Malficeus]

i see a miracle or coincidence as a super natural intervention due to experiences. and as Ck said R_of_G kick ass avatar

[Odetta]

good thread O. For my part, I don't believe in miracles, per se. I believe there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for things, though in some cases we may never know what that explanation is. Lack of evidence is not proof of something else. I don't have an issue with the use of the word miracle to describe events like that where the scientific explanation evades us, so long as the word is intentionally used metaphorically. Make sense?

that's how I see it as well.

[sarah]

yes, I believe in miracles. I've had two pretty big ones in my life and stuff like that you just don't forget

[Letti]

I know it's boring to start an opinion with this but it depends on what you mean by the word "miracle".
If a miracle is when a dead person after 2 weeks in the coffin gets up and continues his life - no, I don't believe in that.
But for me miracles can be very simple things... and sometimes very big ones. And I believe in them. So many miracles have happened around me. (But maybe they aren't miracles for others.)

[sarah]

From www.dictionary.com


mir·a·cle http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fmiracle) /ˈmɪrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngkəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mir-uh-kuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. 2.such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God. 3.a wonder; marvel. 4.a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

[Letti]

*kisses maerlyn*
Still my answer is yes however I handle more things as miracles... people handle and treat too many things as if there were usual normal or ordinary... or explainable.

[Jean]

since I believe in God, I certainly do believe in miracles

[alinda]

yes, in short life is a miracle it?:rose:

[Brice]

since I believe in God, I certainly do believe in miracles


even though I don't believe in god, I certainly do believe in miracles.

[Matt]

I believe in miracles, but I don't attribute them to God. I attribute them to things happening that we can only sometimes barely perceive.

There are other worlds than these after all :ninja:

[Wuducynn]

I believe in many gods and other supernatural forces, but I also don't believe that everything that happens that is amazing and that we don't know the cause of, is supernaturally based. But I do have an open mind to possibilities.

[Odetta]

Supernatural, I think, is a relative term. Things that we think of as supernatural NOW, may, in 500 years, be considered natural.

[jayson]

... but I also don't believe that everything that happens that is amazing and that we don't know the cause of, is supernaturally based. But I do have an open mind to possibilities.

good phrasing dude. i have my suspicions about the way most things work, but since i have no evidence of this being the case, other possible explanations are always welcome.

[Brice]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

[Odetta]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

:wub:

[Wuducynn]

*Takes a big-ass bong hit and thinks long on what Brice posted*

[LadyHitchhiker]

I believe in miracles.

[Brice]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

:wub:

:wub:


*Takes a big-ass bong hit and thinks long on what Brice posted*


*waits for Matthew to pass the bong*

[Wuducynn]

Supernatural is a word to describe something that is part of nature but its nature is unknown to us. So saying something is "supernatural" doesn't necessarily mean it is not natural.

[jayson]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

well said brice. my wife and i have actually been hearing "the miracle of childbirth" used a lot these days, but we were talking about it, and, when you think about it, childbirth is among the most common events in the natural world, and thus, the exact opposite of a mircale. now i know people use it metaphorically, but still...

[Wuducynn]

So, what I've come to conclusion with all this is, fuck you and the natural horse you road in on.

[Matt]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

well said brice. my wife and i have actually been hearing "the miracle of childbirth" used a lot these days, but we were talking about it, and, when you think about it, childbirth is among the most common events in the natural world, and thus, the exact opposite of a mircale. now i know people use it metaphorically, but still...

I still use it all the time and when you see it happen, you will know why. Its not that birth is very common, the miracle is that it happens at all.

It starts with the tiny little fingernails and the feeling grows from there. :couple:

I like "unexplainable (because we are basically smart monkeys)" instead of Supernatural.

[jayson]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

well said brice. my wife and i have actually been hearing "the miracle of childbirth" used a lot these days, but we were talking about it, and, when you think about it, childbirth is among the most common events in the natural world, and thus, the exact opposite of a mircale. now i know people use it metaphorically, but still...

I still use it all the time and when you see it happen, you will know why. Its not that birth is very common, the miracle is that it happens at all.

It starts with the tiny little fingernails and the feeling grows from there. :couple:

I like "unexplainable (because we are basically smart monkeys)" instead of Supernatural.

oh, i totally get it, and am sure i will feel it as well. just like i said in my first post, i have no issue with the word as a metaphor. "fucking bad-ass" will likely be the words i use more often, but hey, that's just me.

[Brice]

Supernatural is a word to describe something that is part of nature but its nature is unknown to us. So saying something is "supernatural" doesn't necessarily mean it is not natural.

From the latin super means above and nature means nature. Supernatural refers to that which is above or beyond the laws of physics. Something which can't in fact exist because if it did the laws of physics would simply change to account for it thus nothing can ever be supernatural.



There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

well said brice. my wife and i have actually been hearing "the miracle of childbirth" used a lot these days, but we were talking about it, and, when you think about it, childbirth is among the most common events in the natural world, and thus, the exact opposite of a mircale. now i know people use it metaphorically, but still...


Well, I'm not sure I agree there; the common can in fact be miraculous.

[Wuducynn]

Oh yeah? Explain this http://www.neophi.com/home/danielr/fun/dalmation.gif

[jayson]

:rofl:

[Wuducynn]

From the latin super means above and nature means nature. Supernatural refers to that which is above or beyond the laws of physics. Something which can't in fact exist because if it did the laws of physics would simply change to account for it thus nothing can ever be supernatural.


Simply another way of saying beyond (above simply meaning greater than us) nature that we know. Like I said.

[Brice]

Oh yeah? Explain this http://www.neophi.com/home/danielr/fun/dalmation.gif


A really naughty dog or someone with too much time to play with the photoshop? :lol:

[Brice]

From the latin super means above and nature means nature. Supernatural refers to that which is above or beyond the laws of physics. Something which can't in fact exist because if it did the laws of physics would simply change to account for it thus nothing can ever be supernatural.


Simply another way of saying beyond (above simply meaning greater than us) nature that we know. Like I said.


In a manner...yes, beyond and above are essentially the same here, but it is not regarding nature we know, but in fact nature so nothing can be supernatural. Of course this is being extremely technical about it though. Essentially we seem to agree. :D

[Wuducynn]

Which brings me back to my point about you and your natural horse as previously posted...

[Brice]

Which brings me back to my point about you and your natural horse as previously posted...

Actually...it is a supernatural horse. :rofl:

[Wuducynn]

:o

[Jean]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

well said brice. my wife and i have actually been hearing "the miracle of childbirth" used a lot these days, but we were talking about it, and, when you think about it, childbirth is among the most common events in the natural world, and thus, the exact opposite of a mircale. now i know people use it metaphorically, but still...
For me (a Christian) the word necessarily means the breaking of a natural law, interruption of continuity; something that does not and can not exist in accordance with any law of nature, known or not known to man. Thus, childbirth or even life itself (something we know very little, if anything, about) are not miracles, while turning water into wine is, if Jesus didn't use any chemical slight of hand, or anything else but his own divine will. It is a deliberate act of God's will, always unique, - that is, you can't really say it is. It was brought to life for only this specific particular occasion, in defiance of everything that was, is, or will be; that's one of the (many) reasons why miracles happen so rarely. Metaphorically, though, I would use this term referring to such things as, for example, mercy - something that also means breach of continuity (vs. the mechanical justice of fair retribution).

Disclaimer: I stated my opinion there for those who might be interested in it without any intention of starting a religious discussion here. If anyone wants to attack my position from any point of view irrelevant to the topic of the thread, please do so in our Religious Discussion thread. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Brice]

There is no supernatural. If something is....then it is in fact natural.

well said brice. my wife and i have actually been hearing "the miracle of childbirth" used a lot these days, but we were talking about it, and, when you think about it, childbirth is among the most common events in the natural world, and thus, the exact opposite of a mircale. now i know people use it metaphorically, but still...
For me (a Christian) the word means an obvious breaking of a natural law, interruption of continuity; something that does not and can not exist in accordance with any law of nature, known or not known to man. Thus, childbirth or even life itself (something we know very little, if anything, about) are not miracles, while turning water into wine is, if Jesus didn't use any chemical slight of hand, or anything else but his own divine will. It is a deliberate act of God's will, always unique. Metaphorically, though, I would use this term referring to such things as, for example, mercy - something that also means breach of continuity (vs. the mechanical justice of fair retribution).


But...even if Jesus really turned water into wine or raised the dead wouldn't that automatically make it natural and within the confines of nature's laws?

[Letti]

Brice is a miracle himself. :)

[Wuducynn]

Yeah he's a miracle alright...a miracle that his parents let him live as long as they have.

[Brice]

Brice is a miracle himself. :)

:huglove: you are

[Jean]

But...even if Jesus really turned water into wine or raised the dead wouldn't that automatically make it natural and within the confines of nature's laws?
No, why? I think it is not natural by definition: as something that can be done only by God, who is beyond nature (=the created world) and by nobody else (who belongs to this natural world).

[Brice]

Yeah he's a miracle alright...a miracle that his parents let him live as long as they have.


....only because I left home at a very young age. ;)

[Brice]

But...even if Jesus really turned water into wine or raised the dead wouldn't that automatically make it natural and within the confines of nature's laws?
No, why? I think it is not natural by definition: as something that can be done only by God, who is beyond nature (=the created world).

Why? Because I think if in fact there is a god then he is natural too and his existence would require seperate laws just for himself. Nature isn't just the created world. It is everything.

[Jean]

I see, it's in the definition of nature where the problem lies. No, I understand nature as created world only, and God as someone who created it along with its laws; hence my understanding of miracles.

[Brice]

I see, it's in the definition of nature where the problem lies. No, I understand nature as created world only, and God as someone who created it along with its laws; hence my understanding of miracles.

Gotcha! As I see it all of existence is both nature and natural. If a god created everything he is not outside of it or more so he is both outside and within every facet at the same time possibly through all time. There is no seperating the one from the other, so IMO if a god exists he must in fact be natural.


Don't worry though if we go making a natural or scientific law for god noone will understand it anyway. It'll be something like each digit and any number of digits of pi multiply upon themselves and are divided by zero to equal god. :lol:

[Jean]

not to lead this thread astray into the discussion the nature of God, I suggest, for promoting mutual understanding and making further dialog possible, the following definition of a miracle: "something that breaks the laws and interrupts the continuity of the created world". This way the word "nature" will not cloud the issue. Of course, this definition holds water only for the religious; that's why I wonder how those who do not believe in God but still believe in miracles understand them.

[Brice]

not to lead this thread astray into the discussion the nature of God, I suggest, for promoting mutual understanding and making further dialog possible, the following definition of a miracle: "something that breaks the laws and interrupts the continuity of the created world". This way the word "nature" will not cloud the issue. Of course, this definition holds water only for the religious; that's why I wonder how those who do not believe in God but still believe in miracles understand them.

Well, I think the nature of god is about as on topic as one can get when discussing miracles, but I can leave it alone too. I'd define a miracle as (from Sarah's previously posted definitions)

3.a wonder; marvel and also as the improbable with the more improbable equalling the more miraculous.

I still cannot see how anything can break the laws of nature unless we were to specify the current laws.

[ATG]

This morning, on my english muffin, there was the image of the Virgin Mary.

Miracle.

[Brice]

This morning, on my english muffin, there was the image of the Virgin Mary.

Miracle.



Did you carve it in with your butter knife? :P

[alinda]

Jean & Brice,
I was going to add to this conversation, but you two seem to be spot on
target with anything I might say :)

[Brice]

I was going to add to this conversation, but you two seem to be spot on
target with anything I might say :)

Which two?

[alinda]

I edited my post to say you & Jean, no offience to ATG :LOL:

[Brice]

I edited my post to say you & Jean, no offience to ATG :LOL:

I am confused. Jean and I are nearly polar opposites on the subject as far as I can see.

[alinda]

precicely, and I believe in EVERYTHING!! Its my blessing/curse, but I can see both sides, and as scary as it sounds , I think your both right!

[Storyslinger]

I believe in ka, and if ka must intervine in the form of a miracle, then so be it.

[Odetta]

Could I hear some examples of miracles that people have witnessed? THere have been a couple mentioned, but I'd like to know what people consider a miracle.

[Storyslinger]

Me waking up before 5 A.M.

Ta Da

(just kidding)

[Wuducynn]

Could I hear some examples of miracles that people have witnessed? THere have been a couple mentioned, but I'd like to know what people consider a miracle.


Well, I've already given you an example Odetta. If a dalmation having kittens isn't a miracle, I don't know what is.

[Matt]

I've never experienced any unless you consider the amazing sequence of events that brought me and Dora together.

Still seems like a miracle after all these years.

[Wuducynn]

That just warmed my heart up a degree or two, Matt.

[Jean]

I edited my post to say you & Jean, no offience to ATG :LOL:

I am confused. Jean and I are nearly polar opposites on the subject as far as I can see.

No, not quite. On the subject of the nature of God, His existence and His relation to the created world we definitely are, but maybe not as much on the essense of a miracle.

I'll try to put it in absolutely non-religious terms.

There is a world that lives by its own laws. They are many, both known to the inhabitants and yet unknown, but they are laws. For example, it is a two-dimensional world, where a third dimension is not only unthinkable (that is, potentially thinkable), but nonexistent; the world that is limited to a plane. Then, an intruder from a three-dimensional world comes and willfully bends the plane, breaking all laws by which the geometry of that plane exists. After that, he may go on playing with that, say, sheet of paper with triangles drawn on it; or he may go on along his own three-dimensional way, but in that sheet-of-paper world a miracle happens when he folds the sheet the way two points touch - the two points that could never touch if the sheet-world was left alone.

In my terms, the created world is this sheet of paper, which God sometimes folds.

In non-religious terms, it may just be different universes, or different planes of existence, or whatever; then (and here I would agree with your point of view, - but only here, where the nature of God is not concerned) the laws of intruder are, of course, natural for him where he lives.

The basic point, common for both contexts, seems to be the following: the intruder (person or another agent) brings to another world something that could never exist in that other world except by the will of the intruder, and, being contrary to the laws of that world can't act there by itself; as soon as the intrusion ends, the action ends too, it just can't survive in the world whose laws it contradicts.
(another option is to alter the world by the force of this intrusion, but it in fact amounts to the same)
Thus, it may be considered super-natural or just other-natural, but it is not here-natural (sorry, can't think of a better word now).

[John Blaze]

It depends.... I mostly agree with Jean.

However, i believe religious miracles are a thing of the past. Jesus and the apostles made miracles maybe, but nowadays there is no one of so absolute faith that can do any.

However, I do believe in random coincidences happening which can be labeled miracles, for example a random series of events which leads to a very lucky situation for a certain individual. Do I think God intervened? Mostly no.