Best Sci-fi Tournament - Round 3 Group C

[Heather19]

Note: You may vote for up to 2 films.

ET the Extra-Terrestrial
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/E_t_the_extra_terrestrial_ver3.jpg

Robocop
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Robocop_film.jpg

Inception
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/Inception_ver3.jpg

The Road Warrior
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Mad_max_two_the_road_warrior.jpg

Avatar
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Avatar-Teaser-Poster.jpg

Escape From New York
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4b/EscapefromNYposter.jpg

[fernandito]

Robocop
Inception

[Heather19]

Inception

[Mattrick]

Robocop

[mae]

Robocop
Avatar

[frik]

Robocop
Avatar

+1

sk

[Tommy]

Says we can only vote for 2 films but T-Dogz_AK47 voted for 4 films somehow

[Heather19]

Yes, round 3 is down to only 2 votes. T-Dogz, please let us know which 2 you're voting for.

[mae]

Interesting to see that Inception is leading. I thought people and critics didn't like it much?

[Ben Staad]

I did not vote for inception. Didn't like it in the theater and have had no interest in rewatching it.

[Heather19]

Interesting to see that Inception is leading. I thought people and critics didn't like it much?

I thought most people raved about it when it first came out.

[fernandito]

Interesting to see that Inception is leading. I thought people and critics didn't like it much?

Watchoo talking about Willis. Inception has an aggregate score of 86% on Rotten Tomatoes.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/inception/

The only people here who I've seen speak out against Inception is Jean and now Ben ^ Everyone else liked/loved it.

[Jean]

Interesting to see that Inception is leading. I thought people and critics didn't like it much?

I thought most people raved about it when it first came out.
yes, people did; it was bears who slept through it

[Mattrick]

Inception is a spectacle film, with little else there. It doesn't even explore the theme of what dreams are, it just utilises the idea of dreams for more spectacle. I loved it, liked it, didn't like it: order of my three viewings. I'm afraid if I watch it again I will outright hate it. Nolan's worst film.

[Still Servant]

I loved Inception. I enjoyed it just as much the second time. There's plenty to be inferred about dreams after watching the film. It's not actually discussed a whole lot, but it's there. Inception mixes so many different genres of filmmaking. At one point it feels like a Bond film at another point it's a heist film. I'm not sure how you can say there's little else there. Inception makes you question reality. What is real? Is it real just because it feels real and you think it's real? There's so much going on there I'm surprised you'd abandon the film after subsequent viewings.

"They say we only use a fraction of our brain's true potential. Now that's when we're awake. When we're asleep, we can do almost anything."

"Dreams feel real while we're in them. It's only when we wake up that we realize something was actually strange. You never really remember the beginning of a dream do you? You always wind up right in the middle of what's going on."

Those two quotes alone were enough to get my mind going.

It's certainly not Nolan's worst film in my opinion.

[Mattrick]

My dreams have beginning's and endings. Maybe Nolan just sucks at dreaming lol Subsequent viewings made me realise how little there is. Existenz and The Matrix are much better at asking 'what is reality?'. Inception explores dreamworlds but doesn't actually delve into what these dreamworlds are. The closest they came to was Limbo and even that was vague. Lucid Dreaming (which I do not believe is possible) takes people years of practise, concentration, meditation and trial and error for people to achieve lucid dreaming; it takes Ellen Paige six seconds to do it. It doesn't even respect the 'science' or processes that go into lucid dreaming. It's just a template for awesome special effects.

I think Insomnia tells a better story and actually has characterization while I can't even tell you who any of the characters in Inception are or who they are as people because they are cardboard incarnate.

[Still Servant]

You do realize this is a mainstream movie, a summer blockbuster if you will, meant to entertain, not an Indy French film, right? You just can't have long discussions about dream theory and you certainly can't spend a lot of time on Ellen Page learning to lucid dream

Also, like Nolan, I too don't have beginnings and endings to my dreams. I guess you're just special. Then again, I suppose I'm in good company.

Lastly, Existenz should never be put in the same sentence with The Matrix and Inception. Unless the sentence is, "Compared to The Matrix and Inception, Existenz is a steaming pile of cow dung."

[Mattrick]

Not saying Existenz is as good but it's themes are almost identical, including the multilayers of video games/dreams. There is no reason why Summer blockbusters can't be thematically heavy and a spectacle, hell, Nolan himself did it with his Batman films. Hell, Wall-E was a summer movie, District 9 too. I'm not saying they need to sit around and talk about everything but at least enlighten us a bit. Nolan has all this equipment that lock people into the same dreams where they can all lucid dream and go from one dream into another yet there isn't even a hint of explaining. Considering Nolan's number 1 crutch in his films is over-exposition, I find it odd how lacking in explaination the film is in just about every respect and what is explained is only explained by Gordon-Levitt. Saying 'it's a mainstream summertime movie' is submission, tapping out, you've given up on having any kind of thoughtful film from May through August. When you boil the movie down and cut out all the effects and action there is really very little plot and I see less plot each time I watch it :/ I don' t understand why Cobb just doesn't have his kids brought out to him since he's not allowed in the country, seems much easier. I like my special effects to be the fries with my burger, not the burger. I asked my friend the other day to explain the characters and how they relate to each other in Inception to me. He just kind of shrugged and I said, 'That's why I like it less each time I watch it' lol.

[Merlin1958]

Inception is a spectacle film, with little else there. It doesn't even explore the theme of what dreams are, it just utilises the idea of dreams for more spectacle. I loved it, liked it, didn't like it: order of my three viewings. I'm afraid if I watch it again I will outright hate it. Nolan's worst film.


I loved Inception. I enjoyed it just as much the second time. There's plenty to be inferred about dreams after watching the film. It's not actually discussed a whole lot, but it's there. Inception mixes so many different genres of filmmaking. At one point it feels like a Bond film at another point it's a heist film. I'm not sure how you can say there's little else there. Inception makes you question reality. What is real? Is it real just because it feels real and you think it's real? There's so much going on there I'm surprised you'd abandon the film after subsequent viewings.

"They say we only use a fraction of our brain's true potential. Now that's when we're awake. When we're asleep, we can do almost anything."

"Dreams feel real while we're in them. It's only when we wake up that we realize something was actually strange. You never really remember the beginning of a dream do you? You always wind up right in the middle of what's going on."

Those two quotes alone were enough to get my mind going.

It's certainly not Nolan's worst film in my opinion.


My dreams have beginning's and endings. Maybe Nolan just sucks at dreaming lol Subsequent viewings made me realise how little there is. Existenz and The Matrix are much better at asking 'what is reality?'. Inception explores dreamworlds but doesn't actually delve into what these dreamworlds are. The closest they came to was Limbo and even that was vague. Lucid Dreaming (which I do not believe is possible) takes people years of practise, concentration, meditation and trial and error for people to achieve lucid dreaming; it takes Ellen Paige six seconds to do it. It doesn't even respect the 'science' or processes that go into lucid dreaming. It's just a template for awesome special effects.

I think Insomnia tells a better story and actually has characterization while I can't even tell you who any of the characters in Inception are or who they are as people because they are cardboard incarnate.


You do realize this is a mainstream movie, a summer blockbuster if you will, meant to entertain, not an Indy French film, right? You just can't have long discussions about dream theory and you certainly can't spend a lot of time on Ellen Page learning to lucid dream

Also, like Nolan, I too don't have beginnings and endings to my dreams. I guess you're just special. Then again, I suppose I'm in good company.

Lastly, Existenz should never be put in the same sentence with The Matrix and Inception. Unless the sentence is, "Compared to The Matrix and Inception, Existenz is a steaming pile of cow dung."


Not saying Existenz is as good but it's themes are almost identical, including the multilayers of video games/dreams. There is no reason why Summer blockbusters can't be thematically heavy and a spectacle, hell, Nolan himself did it with his Batman films. Hell, Wall-E was a summer movie, District 9 too. I'm not saying they need to sit around and talk about everything but at least enlighten us a bit. Nolan has all this equipment that lock people into the same dreams where they can all lucid dream and go from one dream into another yet there isn't even a hint of explaining. Considering Nolan's number 1 crutch in his films is over-exposition, I find it odd how lacking in explaination the film is in just about every respect and what is explained is only explained by Gordon-Levitt. Saying 'it's a mainstream summertime movie' is submission, tapping out, you've given up on having any kind of thoughtful film from May through August. When you boil the movie down and cut out all the effects and action there is really very little plot and I see less plot each time I watch it :/ I don' t understand why Cobb just doesn't have his kids brought out to him since he's not allowed in the country, seems much easier. I like my special effects to be the fries with my burger, not the burger. I asked my friend the other day to explain the characters and how they relate to each other in Inception to me. He just kind of shrugged and I said, 'That's why I like it less each time I watch it' lol.

You guys really need to get a room. This discussion is way off the beaten path. Way off!!! Let me know how it eventually comes out (Not). lol

[mae]

I'm enjoying it.

[Mattrick]

We're dicussing the film that is currently leading. I'd say we're right on the beaten path lol. Nothing wrong with some friendly debate.

[Ricky]

You just can't have long discussions about dream theory and you certainly can't spend a lot of time on Ellen Page learning to lucid dream

:rofl:

Also, I don't believe I have beginnings to my dreams either. They just start wherever they feel like it. I think my dream self knows where they began but, as the dreamer, I don't know.

[fernandito]

If there's one criticism leveled at Nolan it's that the characters in his films are usually just cyphers in his intellectual puzzles. Faces of a rubix cube, if you will.

In Inception's case that's not a problem because the film itself is structured like a puzzle. The cyphers exist in service to the story and theme(s). Like Mike mentioned, Inception is at its core a blockbuster. What that means is that the ratio of grand spectacle to lengthy exposition will be tipped in favor of the former. In the same way you wouldn't expect visual heavy set pieces from a 'French indie film', you'll be hard pressed to find sumptuous dialogue in a big budget film, it's simply the nature of things.

Matt tbh I'm a little surprised to hear you say that you found nothing on repeated viewings. I've always taken you as someone that can easily detect things not viewable from the surface...or is this one of those times you're being a contrarian on purpose? Lol. There is a shitload of things to discover upon repeated viewings. Some of them blunt, others are cleverly embedded when Cobb is running from those two Cobol agents and he gets stuck between those two buildings, making you question if it really is a dream or not. Genius.

To me, Inception isn't so much about the nature of reality, but whether it ultimately matters in the end if you're happy. One of Nolan's favorite themes to explore is the notion of people ignoring the facts or outright lying to themselves safeguard their fragile sense of happiness (see Memento).


I asked my friend the other day to explain the characters and how they relate to each other in Inception to me. He just kind of shrugged and I said, 'That's why I like it less each time I watch it' lol.

Get better friends.

[divemaster]

I could have easily voted for Inception and The Road Warrior and E.T. as very good to outstanding SF films. But my votes went to Robocop and Avatar.

[pathoftheturtle]

Much about the future society surrounding Inception is left to viewers' imaginations. Doesn't make me like it any less.

[DoctorDodge]

Inception and Robocop were my two votes. Obviously, out of the two, I prefer Robocop, but I love Inception a lot for combining the genres of science fiction, action and heist movies and present something incredibly different with it and giving us so many more Leondardo Di Caprio memes to abuse the brilliant actor with. ("Exclusion" is probably still my favourite.)

[Mattrick]

Also, I don't believe I have beginnings to my dreams either. They just start wherever they feel like it. I think my dream self knows where they began but, as the dreamer, I don't know.

That's the difference between dreaming and lucid dreaming. When you lucid dream there is no dream self, only yourself. When you lucid dream your dream experiences become your experiences and your memories. I lucid dream every time I fall asleep and have memories from thousands of dreams, dating all the way back to when I was three years old.


Much about the future society surrounding Inception is left to viewers' imaginations. Doesn't make me like it any less.

I don't remember there being any indication it even takes place in the future.


If there's one criticism leveled at Nolan it's that the characters in his films are usually just cyphers in his intellectual puzzles. Faces of a rubix cube, if you will.

In Inception's case that's not a problem because the film itself is structured like a puzzle. The cyphers exist in service to the story and theme(s). Like Mike mentioned, Inception is at its core a blockbuster. What that means is that the ratio of grand spectacle to lengthy exposition will be tipped in favor of the former. In the same way you wouldn't expect visual heavy set pieces from a 'French indie film', you'll be hard pressed to find sumptuous dialogue in a big budget film, it's simply the nature of things.

I suppose that makes sense why I like Inception the least, I must not be a fan of his writing because it's the only film he wrote by himself. I don't see the puzzle aspect of the film because there really isn't too much to solve as there are only three possibilities. My point is that for a film that tries really hard to make it a character piece about Cobb aside from the blockbuster stuff, it doesn't do a very good job at it.


Matt tbh I'm a little surprised to hear you say that you found nothing on repeated viewings. I've always taken you as someone that can easily detect things not viewable from the surface...or is this one of those times you're being a contrarian on purpose? Lol. There is a shitload of things to discover upon repeated viewings. Some of them blunt, others are cleverly embedded

I saw most of it the first and second time through. And once I saw what the film had to offer it just really bored me the third time through. Effects are cool but once that novelty is gone I see there being nothing else there to bring me back.


To me, Inception isn't so much about the nature of reality, but whether it ultimately matters in the end if you're happy. One of Nolan's favorite themes to explore is the notion of people ignoring the facts or outright lying to themselves safeguard their fragile sense of happiness (see Memento).

You misread Memento if you think that was it's main theme, when it was Leonard Shelby needing a reason to exist. Nothing to do with happiness. His life is already a blur but if he didn't have his wife's life to avenge there would be nothing tying him down to reality and he would essentially be a ghost, which he already kind of is. But considering his last memory will always be his wife dying I don't think he has any happiness to be had; if he reminded himself 400 times a day he'd already killed John G he'd have to remind himself 400 times a day that he's already killed him, despite the rage and sadness of his wife's death permanently fresh in his mind.[/quote]



Get better friends.

I think some of my friends knowledge about film would intimidate you...it intimidates me lol

[Still Servant]

I think we are right on topic. We are discussing a film that is in the poll.

Like I said before, there is a lot going on in Inception, you are correct in stating that there are many themes that are glossed over and that they could have gone deeper with. I agree. I still feel that the questions are asked and the setup is there for the viewer to come up with their own thoughts on a theme or situation. I remember having tons of conversations with people after I saw Inception about dreams and reality.

Kind of like Path said, much is left to the imagination but that doesn't mean the seed of a thought isn't there. I understand what you're saying, it shouldn't be left up to the viewer to interpret everything that went on in the movie.

Also, I'm certainly not saying every blockbuster should be devoid of thoughtful themes, I'm just saying that sometimes sacrifices have to be made. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the stuff you yearn for was left on the cutting room floor. I'd also add that I wouldn't be surprised if Nolan was asked to "dumb" the film down for mainstream audiences.

[Merlin1958]

I assume you both finished TDT, so what do your theories here do to that story? The reader was definitely asked to fill in the "Blanks". Just curious is all. Would they change if it was a film true to the book?

[pathoftheturtle]

I assume you both finished TDT, so what do your theories here do to that story? The reader was definitely asked to fill in the "Blanks". Just curious is all. Would they change if it was a film true to the book?
showthread.That-Thing-You-Can-Only-Talk-About-If-You-ve-Finished-the-Series (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?1778-That-Thing-You-Can-Only-Talk-About-If-You-ve-Finished-the-Series)
Good question!



Much about the future society surrounding Inception is left to viewers' imaginations. Doesn't make me like it any less.

I don't remember there being any indication it even takes place in the future.
EAMES: They come here every day to sleep?
ELDERLY BALD MAN: No. They come to be woken up... the dream has become their reality... And who are you to say otherwise?It's a subtle dystopia. I love it.


it shouldn't be left up to the viewer to interpret everything that went on in the movie.You don't need to apologize for what made Nolan's work atypical.


I don't see the puzzle aspect of the film because there really isn't too much to solve as there are only three possibilities.The puzzle is the plot. People who don't like movies that are hard to follow will obviously not be too attracted. But "how's this all work?" is a very appropriate tone in science fiction.


My point is that for a film that tries really hard to make it a character piece about Cobb aside from the blockbuster stuff, it doesn't do a very good job at it.It's funny how people don't focus on Fischer, even though so much footage did. That's one of the side effects of the weird way this filmmaker approaches his storytelling. You know when you watch a magician perform that what your eye is directed toward deliberately is not what's important. Except that if you look for the trick, you might not see the magic. So artistic levels make it important after all. As I've pointed out before on this website, this is a story of a man who, through corrupt deals, earns his parenting back by professionally undermining the parentage of another man. It's about insecurity and the nature of untruth. He sacrificed too much. It does a very good job at subverting our sympathies. You feel for Cobb in his desperation, but it's the immorality of the whole business that has stuck with me.

[mae]

This is closing later today, but looks like Robocop and Inception will be moving on.

[fernandito]

Great discussion, you guys. Love it. :thumbsup:

[Still Servant]

I just want to clear something up. The quote that Path chose of mine was not the full sentence. I said, "I understand what you're saying, it shouldn't be left up to the viewer to interpret everything that went on in the movie."

I was just summarizing what I thought Matt was getting at.

[pathoftheturtle]

I just want to clear something up. The quote that Path chose of mine was not the full sentence. I said, "I understand what you're saying, it shouldn't be left up to the viewer to interpret everything that went on in the movie."

I was just summarizing what I thought Matt was getting at.
Oh. My mistake. So you didn't buy into that premise any more than I.

[Still Servant]

I just want to clear something up. The quote that Path chose of mine was not the full sentence. I said, "I understand what you're saying, it shouldn't be left up to the viewer to interpret everything that went on in the movie."

I was just summarizing what I thought Matt was getting at.
Oh. My mistake. So you didn't buy into that premise any more than I.

Nope.