Best Sci-Fi Tournament - Round 1, Group P

[fernandito]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ac/Spheremovieposter.jpg/220px-Spheremovieposter.jpg

http://solarmovie.ag/images/movies/the-thing-from-another-world-134767.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/The_Jacket_poster.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WkKZJVG5wTk/TPSyBfju01I/AAAAAAACyqU/CGPHu8B61jM/s400/fifth_element_ver5.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4b/EscapefromNYposter.jpg/220px-EscapefromNYposter.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FxXUvqPv4CA/UEwmwT39udI/AAAAAAAAB-A/EOpQ0SNKgig/s1600/rollerball.jpg

http://s39.radikal.ru/i086/0910/77/96c14fce6fae.jpg

http://www.movieposterdb.com/posters/05_11/2002/0181689/l_66385_0181689_7d323f6a.jpg

http://s1.thcdn.com/productimg/0/600/600/03/91103-1335960864-482255.jpg

http://www.dvdvideo.co.nz/shop/images/1984.jpg

[mae]

Coming soon:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0hBmpHOO5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05-qogh7GA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_lx0Tr_e9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH4islqoA8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-LDW7tWwAI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUxK1mNups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv2qI4NO3s4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdUxwYScrFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBx5Jrs9eGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52wis_sLT1I

[mae]

Just five for me:

The Jacket
The Fifth Element
Kin-Dza-Dza
Minority Report
Independence Day

[mae]

Most people have never heard of it, much less seen it, but here’s why you should vote for Kin-Dza-Dza! I can give you stats, such as the fact that it’s rated an 8.3 on IMDB (Blade Runner is rated 8.2) and is ranked at #18 overall amongst IMDB’s top-rated sci-fi films of all time. But that doesn’t mean too much. Hopefully the fan-created trailer posted above can spark your initial interest, but if you have about two hours to spare while this poll is ongoing, why not go ahead and watch the full film on YouTube. Unfortunately, this film never really made it outside Russia, when it was originally released in 1986. Apparently, it made a bit of a splash later in Japan, and is somewhat known there. However, until 2006 or so there had never been a version of the film available (legally or not) for English-speaking audiences. While knowledge of Kin-Dza-Dza! had up till then been slowly growing, some fans uploaded a poor-quality DVD rip of the film up on Google Video with fan-made subtitles, because the DVD officially released in Russia did not have them. Since then the film’s fame grew, and recently the film was restored in Russia and released in HD on Blu-ray. Meanwhile, in 2011, Mosfilm, the studio that owns the film and released it on DVD and Blu-ray, actually uploaded the whole film to their YouTube channel, with English subtitles to boot (sadly, not in HD). This makes it the best and easiest way for anyone curious to watch the film. And it deserves to be watched so much. Yes, it’s a foreign-language film with subtitles, and sometimes they can speak a tad too fast so the subtitles either don’t catch everything or go by pretty quickly. That doesn’t matter, because it’s so rewatchable, you can keep picking up little pieces here and there that you missed on the first or second go. You should watch it, because it’s so fucking great! It’s a completely original film, a unique idea, and it’s really difficult to compare it to any other similar type of movie. I’ve seen comments from people who’ve compared it to The Road Warrior and Waterworld and Brazil and so on, but there’s really not a lot it could be compared to. It’s a space/time-travel movie with nearly no special effects, yet it’s a completely alien world. That’s a testament to the great production design, costumes, and other background folks that made it happen. And, of course, the acting. The score is great, too, and so is the script. The story itself is pretty simple: two ordinary guys accidentally get teleported from Earth to a planet in another galaxy. They’re trying to get back home. That’s pretty much the gist of it, but everything hinges on execution, and the director nails it. One of the great decisions that were made when making this film was to not explain anything. Just as our main characters are plucked from their lives in Russia and transported unknown light-years away in a split second, the audience too has to navigate the alien world without any knowledge or real understanding of what’s going on. Little by little small details begin making some semblance of sense, and halfway through you’re pretty much up to speed, just like the characters. It is truly a crime that this film isn’t likely to receive any wide acclaim, but it’s right there for anyone to watch and enjoy. Although, things have changed since 2006 and Kin-Dza-Dza! is receiving more and more notice. Last year, it was screened at the University of Iowa, as part of their International Writing Program. And it’s getting more and more general online notice now that it’s freely, legally, and easily available subtitled on YouTube.

Here are some fun links:


http://www.electricsheepmagazine.co.uk/reviews/2013/09/12/kin-dza-dza/
http://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/1ru7sh/kindzadza_1986_amazing_scifi_dystopian_satire/
http://www.academia.edu/1210718/Danelyas_Kin_Dza_Dza


And since Kin-Dza-Dza! was uploaded in two parts by Mosfilm, here are the two YouTube links (if the subtitles don’t automatically turn on, click the CC button on the YouTube interface):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I47CNxwlt9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eti9Qn4bZDg

[pathoftheturtle]

Sphere, The Fifth Element... scraping the bottom of the barrel!

[divemaster]

The Fifth Element was pretty good until Chris Tucker showed up. Then it became unwatchable.

Actually, that pretty much sums up every movie that contains Chris Tucker.

[RUBE]

Only movie with Chris Tucker I like besides Friday. His performance is almost a parody of himself and he owns most of the good quotes. It was super-green.

[Mattrick]

Haven't voted because I want to try and watch Kin-Dza-Dza first. As of now though only going to vote for Minority Report and The Fifth Element. Sphere is one of those films I re-watched plenty of times as a kid on the black box but don't remember too well so going to try and re-watch that to see if it's worthy.

[fernandito]

If Sphere was able to recreate everything contained within the novel it would be one of the greatest science fiction films ever made. Unfortunately, cinema is limited in that way and many of the minor details which help fully round out the story get lost in the shuffle. Still, some of the themes which take a larger slice of the pie do manage through shine through and more importantly, the moral conundrum at the heart of the story is kept intact.

[pathoftheturtle]

Unwatchable. It's so staged and awkward there's no way to suspend disbelief. You just feel sorry for the actors trying to make it work.

[Jean]

Kin-Dza-Dza is one of the best films ever. Too bad only pablo and bears watched it.

Also, I forgot to vote for The Jacket (my nominee). Heather :rose: or feverish, can you please edit the poll, adding my vote manually? Not that it will change anything, though.

Bears are still not allowed to the computer more than a couple minutes a day. Love you all.

[Heather19]

Sphere is the only one here to get a vote from me.

[mae]

Sphere is the only one here to get a vote from me.

You won't venture and give Kin-Dza-Dza a try? :cry:

[fernandito]

Hey check this out, there's 4 different sellers selling mint conditions copies of Kin Dza Dza for $15

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002NE0EGG/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

[mae]

Good deal, I wonder if it has better subtitles.

[Mattrick]

Minority Report should be winning, not ID-4 lol.

[fernandito]

I agree lol, but ID4 is not entirely without merit. Sure, there's enough cheese on there to slab on your ham sandwich, but it had a few tricks up its sleeve in the design department. I always thought the visual concept behind the aliens was very well done, and I absolutely LOVE the aerial battles ("Eagle 20, Fox 2!").

Besides, Jeff Goldblum defeats a race of aliens with infinitely superior technology using like a Windows 95. Talk about fiction! :lol:

[Mattrick]

Honest Trailer for Independence Day:

http://youtu.be/7YtvsxB9xQY

[fernandito]

I ♥ Honest Trailers.

[pathoftheturtle]

You don't need an honest trailer for Independence Day if you have seen Mars Attacks!

Jean: We're definitely missing your input! Hope you feel better…

[Iwritecode]

Besides, Jeff Goldblum defeats a race of aliens with infinitely superior technology using like a Windows 95. Talk about fiction! :lol:

He was using an Apple powerbook. :P

[fernandito]

Oh I know, I was being facetious. Windows 95 sounds funnier :)

[Still Servant]

Sphere is the only one here to get a vote from me.

You won't venture and give Kin-Dza-Dza a try? :cry:

Is this based on the film you guys are talking about? It's directed by the same guy who directed Kin-Dza-Dza. Also, does the film have an American name, sometimes I think that's why some of the Russian films don't catch on. Most people don't recognize the film Dip huet seung hung, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people know it's English name, The Killer, one of the best gangster films of all time.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2659374/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[Merlin1958]

I ♥ Honest Trailers.


Yeah, I bookmarked the site. That was pretty funny, Matts!!!

[Randall Flagg]

5th Element is a memorable movie. Not only is the story fantastic, but the visuals are mind blowing. I recall using the DVD as a reference after calibrating my Mitsubishi 65903 (65" RPTV-Purchased in May 1998; no real content then). At that time DVD's were 480i, but it still looked marvelous. I've since watched it in 1080P and it has held up well.

[Mattrick]

One of the funniest bits in all of film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjLO_CrZRmM

[mae]

Sphere is the only one here to get a vote from me.

You won't venture and give Kin-Dza-Dza a try? :cry:

Is this based on the film you guys are talking about? It's directed by the same guy who directed Kin-Dza-Dza. Also, does the film have an American name, sometimes I think that's why some of the Russian films don't catch on. Most people don't recognize the film Dip huet seung hung, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people know it's English name, The Killer, one of the best gangster films of all time.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2659374/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Yeah that's the recent animated remake.

[mae]

Rather surprised that Sphere is doing so well.

[fernandito]

It's doing well here but I have a gut feeling it'll be decimated in the next phase. :/

[pathoftheturtle]

Maybe it's because the competition is equally pitiful.

[mae]

Haven't voted because I want to try and watch Kin-Dza-Dza first.

Let us know if you did.

[WeDealInLead]

Maybe it's because the competition is equally pitiful.

Agreed. I just watched Escape from New York (all while wearing a kick-ass bootleg shirt of the movie) and it's one of those "classics" I'm fond of that aren't really that great.

[pathoftheturtle]

Escape From New York is a guilty pleasure for me, too, but it seems positively respectable next to The Fifth Element. How do you build big ray guns anyway if your periodic table comes out of the dark ages? Four elements? Really?!

[Merlin1958]

Maybe it's because the competition is equally pitiful.

Agreed. I just watched Escape from New York (all while wearing a kick-ass bootleg shirt of the movie) and it's one of those "classics" I'm fond of that aren't really that great.

Any movie that has a character named "Snake Plissken" wearing an eye patch is a good one in my book!! LOL

[Mattrick]

Escape From New York is a guilty pleasure for me, too, but it seems positively respectable next to The Fifth Element. How do you build big ray guns anyway if your periodic table comes out of the dark ages? Four elements? Really?!

You don't like the movie because their periodic table is based off four elements, which it isn't?

[Still Servant]

Maybe it's because the competition is equally pitiful.

Agreed. I just watched Escape from New York (all while wearing a kick-ass bootleg shirt of the movie) and it's one of those "classics" I'm fond of that aren't really that great.

Any movie that has a character named "Snake Plissken" wearing an eye patch is a good one in my book!! LOL

Or video game for that matter.

http://www.rockethideout.com/images/solidsnake1.jpg

[Merlin1958]

Fifth Element was probably one of the most original mainstream SYFY made to date. It was such a rich universe and extremely imaginative.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdKSKeBqmEw

[Merlin1958]

Maybe it's because the competition is equally pitiful.

Agreed. I just watched Escape from New York (all while wearing a kick-ass bootleg shirt of the movie) and it's one of those "classics" I'm fond of that aren't really that great.

Any movie that has a character named "Snake Plissken" wearing an eye patch is a good one in my book!! LOL

Or video game for that matter.

http://www.rockethideout.com/images/solidsnake1.jpg

Yeah, or video game!! LOL

[pathoftheturtle]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the magic ceremony posing as science, or the moral of making love to save the world. Convenient, but hardly great writing.

And BTW, "SYFY" does not mean science fiction. It's the name of a cable channel that actually plays all kind of stuff, and copyrighted. If "Sci-Fi" is too hard, you know you could just write SF.

[Jean]

Sphere is the only one here to get a vote from me.

You won't venture and give Kin-Dza-Dza a try? :cry:

Is this based on the film you guys are talking about? It's directed by the same guy who directed Kin-Dza-Dza. Also, does the film have an American name, sometimes I think that's why some of the Russian films don't catch on. Most people don't recognize the film Dip huet seung hung, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people know it's English name, The Killer, one of the best gangster films of all time.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2659374/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Yeah that's the recent animated remake.
I didn't even know it existed. I don't think I'll watch it. The film was too good.

As far as the 5th Element is concerned, the only two times I remember being as insanely bored were when I tried to watch Inception and Matrix.

[pathoftheturtle]

As far as the 5th Element is concerned, the only two times I remember being as insanely bored were when I tried to watch Inception and Matrix.Jeez, those aren't even in the same league! At least the latter two each have a meaningful premise. Fifth Element is a concept film with no concept.

[pathoftheturtle]

Oh hey, to be clear, I didn't mean to insult anyone when I suggested that Sci-Fi might be too difficult to spell. Sometimes I get tired of writing things out myself. That is what the point of abbreviations is supposed to be, after all. I just like to see ones that still communicate correctly.

[Mattrick]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the magic ceremony posing as science, or the moral of making love to save the world. Convenient, but hardly great writing.

And BTW, "SYFY" does not mean science fiction. It's the name of a cable channel that actually plays all kind of stuff, and copyrighted. If "Sci-Fi" is too hard, you know you could just write SF.

It was written by a teenager. It's not really ceremony that does it. Leeloo was an engineered being after all. And they didn't make love to save the world, it was a mere kiss. Kisses have had magical power in film for long before The Fifth Element. The world, the costumes, the goofiness is what I love about The Fifth Element. I admire it for packing all its metaphors into cherry scene too lol

[pathoftheturtle]

Doesn't seem likely we'll move each other. You say that like those are good things, and all I hear is hack, drivel, waste. I'm sick of talking about that movie --bad enough that I bothered to watch the whole thing.

[Mattrick]

Well it is just an entertainment action comedy sci-fi romp and it doesn't try to be anything more than that. For what the movie intentions are its close to perfect. I can see if you were expecting a serious movie your being disappointed but it seems your disappointed it wasn't serious.. It's just fun movie made with passion and verve which is more than I can say about recent fun movies. Fifth Element isnt a concept film (just scrolled up and read that), it's mindless B-movie fun at it's best. Good vs. Evil yadda yadda, rag tag group saves the world yadda, boy gets girl, goofy comedy, implausible action kind of movie

. I'm not trying to change your mind it just seems like you thought you were getting filet mignon when its really just a burger and fries, but delicious. There is a lot of solidfilmaking in it I just think you missed or overlooked because of the plot is all. I rewatched it today for first time in years and there is a lot in it I couldn't appreciate as a kid. I guess if Anything I'm fishing for you to revisit it of it's been a long time.

[pathoftheturtle]

The only thing mindless entertainment could be good for is softening you up between commercials. It's certainly not the Best kind of Science Fiction Movie. I'm going to try to see Kin-Dza-Dza and then instead of rewatch anything, I'll probably read a book.

[pathoftheturtle]

Nevertheless, I'm also here, besides seeing new ideas, to criticize what I have seen. I like that, in the constructive sense: attempting to advance the culture by promoting artworks which are congruent with its values and in others analyzing where the incongruity occurs. So if you happen to scroll up to where I said "...Fifth Element is a concept film..." again, Matt, please note that I said so in response to Jean comparing it to Inception and The Matrix, both of which I have previously defended to him on grounds of metaphysical and sociological themes. I think his issue is that he attends more readily to character driven material. And I think that's a fair complaint about all three examples. That's why I grade Matrix & Inception just somewhere in the range of a C+ to B+ (excluding sequels.) The protagonist in 5th Element really is resistant to growth and hardly changes at all through the picture until the very end. Rather like Neo, actually, although even that slightly truer depiction of the breakthrough of accepting love is not really quite all that. But, like I said in my previous post, at least you do get the proverbial and a bag of chips. Sadly, I did appreciate "a lot" in the details of 5E, particularly in the opening and early sequences, so if it's true that my expectations were too high, that might be the explanation. The languages were fascinating, and the glimpses of setting implied an apparent whole somewhat reminiscent of Blade Runner, which IS on my short A-list to win this whole tournament. Furthermore, right up there with it on that list is Twelve Monkeys, so you know I don't have a problem with Bruce Willis. Yet it is not so easy for some people to enjoy a work for the sake of enjoyment when it just doesn't hold appeal for them. As you pointed out, in place of a high concept this science fiction film simply deploys genre conventions on scant pretext. Not my cup of tea at all.

[Jean]

As far as the 5th Element is concerned, the only two times I remember being as insanely bored were when I tried to watch Inception and Matrix.Jeez, those aren't even in the same league! At least the latter two each have a meaningful premise. Fifth Element is a concept film with no concept.I was only talking about their entertainment value. None of those was anything one could entertain a bear with.

Have tried to watch Dark City, by the way, and stopped in the middle. I liked the visuals, but they only got me through the first ten minutes, and then the whole thing seemed somehow so pointless that I never finished it.

[pathoftheturtle]

Hm. Have you ever tried
Blade Runner, Jean?

[Mattrick]

Have tried to watch Dark City, by the way, and stopped in the middle. I liked the visuals, but they only got me through the first ten minutes, and then the whole thing seemed somehow so pointless that I never finished it.

You really must try to finish it. There is simply so much in it. What is funny is that Dark City and The Fifth Element intersect in Ebert's 98' review for Dark city (not actual spoiler, just the review):

Dark City'' by Alex Proyas (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/alex-proyas) is a great visionary achievement, a film so original and exciting, it stirred my imagination like "Metropolis'' and "2001: A Space Odyssey.'' If it is true, as the German director Werner Herzog (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/werner-herzog) believes, that we live in an age starved of new images, then "Dark City'' is a film to nourish us. Not a story so much as an experience, it is a triumph of art direction, set design, cinematography, special effects--and imagination.

Like "Blade Runner,'' it imagines a city of the future. But while "Blade Runner'' extended existing trends, "Dark City'' leaps into the unknown. Its vast noir metropolis seems to exist in an alternate time line, with elements of our present and past combined with visions from a futuristic comic book. Like the first "Batman,'' it presents a city of night and shadows, but it goes far beyond "Batman'' in a richness of ominous, stylized sets, streets, skylines and cityscapes. For once a movie city equals any we could picture in our minds; this is the city "The Fifth Element'' teased us with, without coming through.

The story combines science fiction with film noir--in more ways than we realize and more surprising ways than I will reveal. Its villains, in their homburgs and flapping overcoats, look like a nightmare inspired by the thugs in "M,'' but their pale faces would look more at home in "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari''--and, frighteningly, one of them is a child. They are the Strangers, shape-changers from another solar system, and we are told they came to Earth when their own world was dying. (They create, in the process, the first space vessel since "Star Wars'' that is newly conceived--not a clone of that looming mechanical vision.) They inhabit a city of rumbling elevated streamlined trains, dank flophouses, scurrying crowds and store windows that owe something to Edward Hopper's "Nighthawks.'' In this city lives John Murdoch (Rufus Sewell (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/rufus-sewell)), who awakens in a strange bathtub beneath a swinging ceiling lamp, to blood, fear and guilt. The telephone rings; it is Dr. Schreber (Kiefer Sutherland (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/kiefer-sutherland)), gasping out two or three words at a time, as if the need to speak is all that gives him breath. He warns Murdoch to flee, and indeed three Strangers are in the corridor, coming for him.
The film will be the story of Murdoch's flight into the mean streets, and his gradual discovery of the nature of the city and the Strangers. Like many science-fiction heroes, he has a memory shattered into pieces that do not fit. But he remembers the woman he loves, or loved--his wife, Emma (Jennifer Connelly (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/jennifer-connelly)), who is a torch singer with sad eyes and wounded lips. And he remembers ... Shell Beach? Where was that? He sees it on a billboard and old longings stir.

There is a detective after him, Inspector Bumstead (William Hurt (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/william-hurt)). Murdoch is wanted in connection with the murders of six prostitutes. Did he kill them? Like the hero of Franz Kafka's The Trial, Murdoch feels so paranoid he hardly knows. Rufus Sewell plays Murdoch like a man caught in a pinball machine, flipped into danger every time it looks like the game is over.

The story has familiar elements made new. Even the hard-boiled detective, his eyes shaded by the brim of his fedora, seems less like a figure from film noir than like a projection of an alien idea of noir. Proyas and his co-screenwriters, Lem Dobbs (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/lem-dobbs) and David S. Goyer (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/david-s-goyer), use dream logic to pursue their hero through the mystery of his own life. Along the way, Murdoch discovers that he alone, among humans, has the power of the Strangers--an ability to use his mind in order to shape the physical universe. (This power is expressed in the film as a sort of transparent shimmering projection, aimed from Murdoch's forehead into the world, and as klutzy as that sounds, I found myself enjoying its very audacity: What else would mind-power look like?) Murdoch's problem is that he has no way of knowing if his memories are real, if his past actually happened, if the women he loves ever existed. Those who offer to help him cannot be trusted. Even his enemies may not be real. The movie teasingly explores the question that babies first ask in peek-a-boo: When I can't see you, are you there? It's through that game that we learn the difference between ourselves and others. But what if we're not there, either? The movie is a glorious marriage of existential dread and slam-bang action. Toward the end, there is a thrilling apocalyptic battle that nearly destroys the city, and I scribbled in my notes: "For once, a sequence where the fire and explosions really work and don't play just as effects.'' Proyas and his cinematographer, Dariusz Wolski, capture the kinetic energy of great comic books; their framing and foreshortening and tilt shots and distorting lenses shake the images and splash them on the screen, and it's not "action'' but more like action painting.

Proyas directed "The Crow'' (1994), the visually inspired film that was almost doomed when its star, Brandon Lee (http://www.rogerebert.com/cast-and-crew/brandon-lee), was killed in an accident. I called that film "the best version of a comic book universe I've seen,'' but "Dark City'' is miles beyond it. Proyas' background was in music videos, usually an ominous sign, but not here: His film shows the obsessive concentration on visual detail that's the hallmark of directors who make films that are short and expensive. There's such a wealth on the screen, such an overflowing of imagination and energy. Often in f/x movies the camera doesn't feel free because it must remain within the confines of what has been created for it to see. Here we feel there's no limit.

Is the film for teenage boys and comic book fans? Not at all, although that's the marketing pitch. It's for anyone who still has a sense of wonder and a feeling for great visual style. This film contains ideas and true poignance, a story that has been thought out and has surprises right to the end. It's romantic and exhilarating. Watching it, I realized the last dozen films I'd seen were about people standing around, talking to one another. "Dark City'' has been created and imagined as a new visual place for us to inhabit. It adds treasure to our notions of what can be imagined.

His Great Movies review for it is one of my favourite reviews of his he's written but, like all his Great Movie reviews, he writes about the film as if the person reading it has not only seen it but has seen it numerous times.

[Mattrick]

Nevertheless, I'm also here, besides seeing new ideas, to criticize what I have seen. I like that, in the constructive sense: attempting to advance the culture by promoting artworks which are congruent with its values and in others analyzing where the incongruity occurs. So if you happen to scroll up to where I said "...Fifth Element is a concept film..." again, Matt, please note that I said so in response to Jean comparing it to Inception and The Matrix, both of which I have previously defended to him on grounds of metaphysical and sociological themes. I think his issue is that he attends more readily to character driven material. And I think that's a fair complaint about all three examples. That's why I grade Matrix & Inception just somewhere in the range of a C+ to B+ (excluding sequels.) The protagonist in 5th Element really is resistant to growth and hardly changes at all through the picture until the very end. Rather like Neo, actually, although even that slightly truer depiction of the breakthrough of accepting love is not really quite all that. But, like I said in my previous post, at least you do get the proverbial and a bag of chips. Sadly, I did appreciate "a lot" in the details of 5E, particularly in the opening and early sequences, so if it's true that my expectations were too high, that might be the explanation. The languages were fascinating, and the glimpses of setting implied an apparent whole somewhat reminiscent of Blade Runner, which IS on my short A-list to win this whole tournament. Furthermore, right up there with it on that list is Twelve Monkeys, so you know I don't have a problem with Bruce Willis. Yet it is not so easy for some people to enjoy a work for the sake of enjoyment when it just doesn't hold appeal for them. As you pointed out, in place of a high concept this science fiction film simply deploys genre conventions on scant pretext. Not my cup of tea at all.

Inception and The Matrix are two films that get worse every time I watch them. I don't even think I can bear to watch Inception again because it's just poorly written, a concept film with nothing besides it's concept...the only thing that really kept me coming back for a second (and maybe a third viewing, can't recall) was the effects and the always fantastic Marionne Cottilard. The Matrix has more to it than just it's concept thematically but the sequels are so watered down in overbearing philosophy it cheapens the original film, which still has the most wooden acting of the decade (except Hugo Weaving who is a program and is more human than the humans, and Pantaliano who again, is a human villain so the Wachowski's obviously felt heroes are dull, boring and emotionless while villains have feelings and insight into the word lol) but, in the end, what made The Matrix so famous was it's ground breaking affects that seem less groundbreaking with all the parodies that followed. Willis in Fifth Element didn't have a breakthrough to find love, he was already looking for it, I agree Korbin has no growth but he seems to have been a character who is only where he is because of previous growth. Twleve Monkey would by high on my list to win the tournmant too (they are remaking it apparently...it is sure to be dreadful), especially now that some of my favourites aren't surpassing round one. And whatever happened to Madeline Stowe? She just kind of vanished. We're kind of revered on this one as I would rank Fifth Element higher than those other two films as it relies more on practical effects, sets and costume design instead relying on computer effects to create their world...nothing against good special effects but I will always give more credit to films that use them sparingly, it was a little different in the 90s but these days computer effects are often an easy way to spruce up average filmmaking or a lack of ingenuity (hey Zack Snyder, how you doin?).

[Jean]

Hm. Have you ever tried
Blade Runner, Jean?
No, but I am planning to.





Have tried to watch Dark City, by the way, and stopped in the middle. I liked the visuals, but they only got me through the first ten minutes, and then the whole thing seemed somehow so pointless that I never finished it.

You really must try to finish it. There is simply so much in it. <...> yees... maybe... it was, like a half-hour till the end, and it didn't seem to be anything in it, so I couldn't make myself go on. I'll try some day. Did you see La cité des enfants perdus?

[mae]

Yes, Dark City is astounding. Very different from The City of Lost Children.

[divemaster]

Before you watch Blade Runner, Jean, be aware that there are like 5 different cuts of the film. Some vary only slightly, but in ways that cause you to reassess the entire basis of the movie, or, in the case of the alternate endings, leave you with varying levels of optimism (like, from "some" to "pretty much none").

[Mattrick]

The amount of cuts and the variance of opinions between cuts and which cut is the definitive cut has kind of deterred me away from Blade Runner. I saw way back when and barely remember it or what cut I watched and I remember liking it but not much else other than the shot with the origami for some reason. I am sure I'll sit and watch it soon but with it's fanbase I imagine it will advance a few more rounds so I have some time.

[divemaster]

You can always do what I did and get the 5 DVD box set with all cuts and numerous commentaries and bonus materials!

[Still Servant]

Twleve Monkey would by high on my list to win the tournmant too (they are remaking it apparently...it is sure to be dreadful), especially now that some of my favourites aren't surpassing round one. And whatever happened to Madeline Stowe? She just kind of vanished.

The remake of Twelve Monkeys is a TV show. It will still probably suck, but it's not like they are trying to remake the film.

Also, Madeleine Stowe was on the ABC TV show Revenge that just got cancelled. I would like to add that she is still smokin' hot.

[Jean]

Before you watch Blade Runner, Jean, be aware that there are like 5 different cuts of the film. Some vary only slightly, but in ways that cause you to reassess the entire basis of the movie, or, in the case of the alternate endings, leave you with varying levels of optimism (like, from "some" to "pretty much none").
do you mean I have to watch the five?????!!!

[mae]

The theatrical version is fine.

[divemaster]

Watch any of the five, just not the theatrical version.

[Jean]

how will bears know?

[needfulthings]

Before you watch Blade Runner, Jean, be aware that there are like 5 different cuts of the film. Some vary only slightly, but in ways that cause you to reassess the entire basis of the movie, or, in the case of the alternate endings, leave you with varying levels of optimism (like, from "some" to "pretty much none").
do you mean I have to watch the five?????!!!

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME! (I KNOW I DID)
http://imageshack.com/a/img910/6237/5b4ef2.jpg

[pathoftheturtle]

pablo's right. Have to start somewhere. Quit being completists and let the man (the mammal, whatever) find out if he even likes the setting after having to slog through Dark City.

And Mattrick, are you still trying to tell me that 5E is somehow worthwhile? Dude, save your breath! Why do people who like something find it so hard to comprehend that other people just despise the whole smell of it?

[T-Dogz_AK47]

WTF! 22 votes for Independence Day??? :wtf:

The film is utter SHITE!!! :doh:

[Mattrick]

And Mattrick, are you still trying to tell me that 5E is somehow worthwhile? Dude, save your breath! Why do people who like something find it so hard to comprehend that other people just despise the whole smell of it?

That's not what I have trouble comprehending, I'm a wrestling fan...no one understands that concept more than me, believe me on that. My point isn't that you disliked it but why you disliked it. Like you said you did appreciate a lot of the visual details in the Fifth Element and those details are why I enjoy it. A valid complaint to a film is problems with the narrative/characters but film is a visual medium and the visuals in the Fifth Element are the reason I watch it. It's a hokey film with a huge appeal for practical effects, sets and costume design, which is a lot like the appeal in Star Wars. The Fifth Element is one of the last films who took the time to utlize models and minatures etc instead of CGI reliance which...these films went the way of the dodo the following year with the new Star Wars and the trail effect of The Matrix and to me, that's endearing and that has nothing to do with script problems. We actually rate Fifth Element/Matrix/Inception around the same grades but apparently for different reasons. Matrix and Inception may have metaphysical themes but themes do not make a movie better, especially when those themes are but a mere reason for a film to fill itself with cutting edge digital effects. I appreciate good scripts but they don't make a movie great. As an example of what I mean I'll look at Tarantino. For years I thought he was an average director who hadn't established his own visual sense but his scripts were fantastic and he always got good performances from his actors. Tarantino's best film imo is the film most people enjoyed the least, Inglorious Basterds, because it still had the great script/acting he's known for but visually and thematically it was far and away his best work which put it over the top for me. I really don't care if you don't like Fifth Element, I just don't understand the viewpoint of 'I don't like the script so the movie is automatically awful'. A script is just one facet of filmmaking and it has a huge impact but does ANYONE love Star Wars because of the script...I mean, the dialogue in A New Hope is attrocious but you look past that for everything else. I love me some thematically heavy films which is why I love Fantastic Planet and The Arrival so much and was sad to see them not advance...it's just not a necessity for me to the point I can't enjoy everything else a film can offer. If all you care about is characterization, narrative and themes then why do you bother to watch film at all? Books contain that and just that. A huge appeal for me in film is the photography which means every detail that goes into that photography; script doesn't really impact photography and vice versa. Some films are marvels of photography but have narrative problems and some films have fantastic scripts but are visual sterile. Truly great films are both but plenty of solid films are lacking in one or the other.

[pathoftheturtle]

You've convinced me to lower Inception from B+ to B, but not to raise Fifth Element from F to D-.
Minority Report could have a D+ though. A poor script and good visuals automatically is a better movie than terrific visuals and awful writing.

[Still Servant]

D+ for Minority Report? I can see hating Fifth Element, but I can't see how Minority Report warrants almost the same grade.

Also, I love Independence Day and The Fifth Element. Two films I watched as a teen that bring back fond memories. I know many people disagree, but I don't care.

[pathoftheturtle]

If I have to be a conformist, I'd rather be trying to fit in with ID4 critics than with ID4 fans.

[Mattrick]

Minority report is so packed with sociological and metaphysical themes and a better film than Matrix/Inception yet you disliked it more? I can respect your opinions but ithat doesn't mean I understand their consistency film to film.

"American movies are in the midst of a transition period. Some directors place their trust in technology. Spielberg, who is a master of technology, trusts only story and character, and then uses everything else as a workman uses his tools. He makes "Minority Report" with the new technology; other directors seem to be trying to make their movies from it. This film is such a virtuoso high-wire act, daring so much, achieving it with such grace and skill. "Minority Report" reminds us why we go to the movies in the first place."

[pathoftheturtle]

"American movies are in the midst of a transition period. Some directors place their trust in technology. Spielberg, who is a master of technology, trusts only story and character, and then uses everything else as a workman uses his tools. He makes "Minority Report" with the new technology; other directors seem to be trying to make their movies from it. This film is such a virtuoso high-wire act, daring so much, achieving it with such grace and skill. "Minority Report" reminds us why we go to the movies in the first place."Ebert?

[Mattrick]

Yeah. I don't always agree with him but I'll be damned if anyone else can word their criticisms as elegantly as he can. A couple of the critics who contribute to his website now are smart with film but not the greatest at writing about them. Matt Zoller Seitz, who is his protege or something all those lines, is a little too showy with film knowledge for my tastes: his Godzilla review is 50% talking about how the movie made him think of other (and better films) and he seemed to like it because it couldn't even be visually unique...for smaller films he's fine but I cannot trust his opinion when it comes to blockbusters and his 3 1/2 star review for Edge of Tomorrow terrified me the movie would suck ass haha. In his Godzilla review he mentioned the following films:Godzilla vs Mothra, Cloverfield, The Birds, Apocalypse Now, Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, War of the Worlds (2005), Pacific Rim, Star Trek Into Darkness, Man of Steel, The Thin Red Line, Lady and The Tramp, applauding the film for blatantly stealing shots from these films while insulting other recent blockbusters for being sterile (but blatantly unoriginal is okay), then ends the review by quoting George Carlin....so much name dropping. His Maleficient review was no better, except at least in that one he admitted had a 'true lack of filmmaking imagination' yet liked it anyways...I think Zoller Seitz is your complete opposite, path lol

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I don't realy blog or record standardized grades on a consistent basis. I kind of just threw those out as metaphor of a slightly more systemized version of Jean's boredometer. Offhand, I do think I liked MR less, but that one I might be persuaded to watch again.

[Mattrick]

I would definitely recommend that beacuse unlike Fifth Element which is a B-Movie, Minority Report is a real film and you should definitely revisit it. I was going to watch it tonight but I forgot it was my brother's DVD I always watched not mine....

[pathoftheturtle]

"Real film" in the loosest sense maybe. :rolleyes:

[Mattrick]

Not at all. There's tons of juicy ideas in it. A solid mix of sci-fi, action and noir. The future it creates is such a uniquely utopian dystopia and, to me, it's perhaps the scariest direction we can go I've seen in film, at least when you really think about it.

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I don't think it was fair to reduce my point to "idea good" -- I'm a little bit more sophisticated. Themes are often necessarily vague, but a clear plot can be important. Depending on style, of course.

[mae]

Most people have never heard of it, much less seen it, but here’s why you should vote for Kin-Dza-Dza! I can give you stats, such as the fact that it’s rated an 8.3 on IMDB (Blade Runner is rated 8.2) and is ranked at #18 overall amongst IMDB’s top-rated sci-fi films of all time. But that doesn’t mean too much. Hopefully the fan-created trailer posted above can spark your initial interest, but if you have about two hours to spare while this poll is ongoing, why not go ahead and watch the full film on YouTube. Unfortunately, this film never really made it outside Russia, when it was originally released in 1986. Apparently, it made a bit of a splash later in Japan, and is somewhat known there. However, until 2006 or so there had never been a version of the film available (legally or not) for English-speaking audiences. While knowledge of Kin-Dza-Dza! had up till then been slowly growing, some fans uploaded a poor-quality DVD rip of the film up on Google Video with fan-made subtitles, because the DVD officially released in Russia did not have them. Since then the film’s fame grew, and recently the film was restored in Russia and released in HD on Blu-ray. Meanwhile, in 2011, Mosfilm, the studio that owns the film and released it on DVD and Blu-ray, actually uploaded the whole film to their YouTube channel, with English subtitles to boot (sadly, not in HD). This makes it the best and easiest way for anyone curious to watch the film. And it deserves to be watched so much. Yes, it’s a foreign-language film with subtitles, and sometimes they can speak a tad too fast so the subtitles either don’t catch everything or go by pretty quickly. That doesn’t matter, because it’s so rewatchable, you can keep picking up little pieces here and there that you missed on the first or second go. You should watch it, because it’s so fucking great! It’s a completely original film, a unique idea, and it’s really difficult to compare it to any other similar type of movie. I’ve seen comments from people who’ve compared it to The Road Warrior and Waterworld and Brazil and so on, but there’s really not a lot it could be compared to. It’s a space/time-travel movie with nearly no special effects, yet it’s a completely alien world. That’s a testament to the great production design, costumes, and other background folks that made it happen. And, of course, the acting. The score is great, too, and so is the script. The story itself is pretty simple: two ordinary guys accidentally get teleported from Earth to a planet in another galaxy. They’re trying to get back home. That’s pretty much the gist of it, but everything hinges on execution, and the director nails it. One of the great decisions that were made when making this film was to not explain anything. Just as our main characters are plucked from their lives in Russia and transported unknown light-years away in a split second, the audience too has to navigate the alien world without any knowledge or real understanding of what’s going on. Little by little small details begin making some semblance of sense, and halfway through you’re pretty much up to speed, just like the characters. It is truly a crime that this film isn’t likely to receive any wide acclaim, but it’s right there for anyone to watch and enjoy. Although, things have changed since 2006 and Kin-Dza-Dza! is receiving more and more notice. Last year, it was screened at the University of Iowa, as part of their International Writing Program. And it’s getting more and more general online notice now that it’s freely, legally, and easily available subtitled on YouTube.

Here are some fun links:


http://www.electricsheepmagazine.co.uk/reviews/2013/09/12/kin-dza-dza/
http://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/1ru7sh/kindzadza_1986_amazing_scifi_dystopian_satire/
http://www.academia.edu/1210718/Danelyas_Kin_Dza_Dza


And since Kin-Dza-Dza! was uploaded in two parts by Mosfilm, here are the two YouTube links (if the subtitles don’t automatically turn on, click the CC button on the YouTube interface):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I47CNxwlt9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eti9Qn4bZDg


So, nobody gave this gem a whirl? :cry:

[Mattrick]

I just voted before I forgot. I was going to wait until I watch Kin-Dza-Dza but it seems another vote for it would make no difference so voted: Fifth Element and Minority Report

[Merlin1958]

WTF! 22 votes for Independence Day??? :wtf:

The film is utter SHITE!!! :doh:


Apparently, NOT!!!! WELCOME TO EARTH!!!! LOL



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTVjG7ZPxSI

[Still Servant]

Well, I don't realy blog or record standardized grades on a consistent basis. I kind of just threw those out as metaphor of a slightly more systemized version of Jean's boredometer. Offhand, I do think I liked MR less, but that one I might be persuaded to watch again.

Actually, quite a few critics enjoyed Independence Day. Using the small sample size of Rotten Tomatoes, Independence Day has 60% fresh reviews. That's not that bad.

[Mattrick]

Independence Day: watch some of your favourite 90's actors have some fun...and Bill Pullman too!

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I don't realy blog or record standardized grades on a consistent basis. I kind of just threw those out as metaphor of a slightly more systemized version of Jean's boredometer. Offhand, I do think I liked MR less, but that one I might be persuaded to watch again.

Actually, quite a few critics enjoyed Independence Day. Using the small sample size of Rotten Tomatoes, Independence Day has 60% fresh reviews. That's not that bad.I'm not sure how your comment relates to the part of conversation you replied to. Maybe I didn't come across right -- do you think the reason I said that I might be persuaded to watch MR again is that Mattrick quoted a critic who liked it? It's not that simple. Actually, I remember ideas in that film that I believe I would enjoy discussing further, even though I think that there were some logic problems in how it was carried out dramatically. As for ID4, however, I remember the ideas there, too, only too well; the central moral is that diplomacy is foolish and nuclear bombs are the best and most satisfying way to solve problems, as well as that the U.S. would sure be lucky to have a fighter pilot president in a crisis. So of course it's popular. But all I can say, I guess, is that I myself despise Independence Day and The Fifth Element. Two films I watched as a teen that bring back foul memories. I know many people disagree, but I don't care.

[pathoftheturtle]

Now, Escape From New York, that's not really too highbrow, either, but there's a better example if you really want to talk about me personally indulging baser instincts. The way I see it, if you want to imagine gunslinging, you might as well admit that is the nihilist within you.

[Mattrick]

I haven't seen Escape From New York (just the sequel) but it's Carpenter which I'm sure means there was a lot of care put into it. He's up there with Paul Verhoeven, Sam Raimi and Robert Rodriquez as the best of the B movies.

[pathoftheturtle]

... up there with ... Sam Raimi ... as the best of the B movies.:doh: Another movie I forgot when I put my parody top ten on the nominations/updates thread: Army of Darkness! I could have been all like " 'At ain't fantasy/horror -- it gots time travel innit!" That would have been so funny! :P

*sigh* Oh, well...

[mae]

Since when is Paul Verhoeven a B-movie director?

[pathoftheturtle]

Since when is Paul Verhoeven a B-movie director?You don't know since when, pablo? I guess you don't have total recall.

[mae]

We must have a different definition of what a B-movie is. To me, that's a schlocky crapfest. Paul Verhoeven makes actual films. His Dutch films are some of his best work, of course, but less known (like Katie Tippel, Soldier of Orange, or The Fourth Man). And then Total Recall or RoboCop or Starship Troopers are not at all B-movies, but very good, solid sci-fi films.

[pathoftheturtle]

I met him once. It was a long time ago, but he talked about certain criticisms of his work then which he said he did not accept, and he mentioned that he first came here because he had always loved movies of a type that European audiences don't so much appreciate. I greatly admire some of the social themes especially in the sci-fi you just listed, but surely there is no denying that all of them are about action before science.

[Mattrick]

We must have a different definition of what a B-movie is. To me, that's a schlocky crapfest. Paul Verhoeven makes actual films. His Dutch films are some of his best work, of course, but less known (like Katie Tippel, Soldier of Orange, or The Fourth Man). And then Total Recall or RoboCop or Starship Troopers are not at all B-movies, but very good, solid sci-fi films.

It's not an insult to be a good B-movie director, it often is a.credit to the director for being able to do so much with so little. To me B-movie is anything hokey, cheesy, lowbudget, genre film and.the good ones are usually tongue in cheek and embrace their shortcomings as strengths. Not all of Raimi's films are B movies either like For Love of the Game, The Gift and the excellent A Simple Plan.

[mae]

Again, to me, a B-movie is a film that lacks any artistic pretenses. That cannot be said of Paul Verhoeven. There is a good article on Wikipedia (a featured article): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_movie

[frik]

I haven't seen Escape From New York (just the sequel) but it's Carpenter which I'm sure means there was a lot of care put into it. He's up there with Paul Verhoeven, Sam Raimi and Robert Rodriquez as the best of the B movies.

Soldier of Orange, Turks Fruit (Turkish Delight) and The Fourth Man are definitely not B movies.

sk

[Mattrick]

Again, to me, a B-movie is a film that lacks any artistic pretenses. That cannot be said of Paul Verhoeven. There is a good article on Wikipedia (a featured article): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_movie

That article agrees with me. In fact, it mentions Total Recall specifically,
of the nine films released that year to gross more than $100 million at the U.S. box office, two would have been strictly B movie material before the late 1970s: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles_(1990_film)) and Dick Tracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tracy_(1990_film)). Three more—the science-fiction thriller Total Recall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Recall_(1990_film)),"


the term B movie continued to be used in the broader sense it maintains today. In its post–Golden Age usage, there is ambiguity on both sides of the definition: on the one hand, many B movies display a high degree of craft and aesthetic ingenuity; on the other, the primary interest of many inexpensive exploitation films (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_film) is prurient. In some cases, both may be true[...]In its current usage, the term has somewhat contradictory connotations: it may signal an opinion that a certain movie is (a) a genre film with minimal artistic ambitions or (b) a lively, energetic film uninhibited by the constraints imposed on more expensive projects and unburdened by the conventions of putatively "serious" independent film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_film).

B-Movies don't mean bad. It just really means the kind of movie it is. A lot of B-movies are great. Robocop is a B-movie.


Soldier of Orange, Turks Fruit (Turkish Delight) and The Fourth Man are definitely not B movies.

Like I said about Raimi, you can be a king of B-movies without all your movies being B-movies.

[mae]

You quote: "a genre film with minimal artistic ambitions". That's exactly what a B-movie is. Like all that Asylum crap. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule and some B-movies do attain more. Such as some films nominated in this very tournament, like for example Them! But Total Recall or RoboCop are not in any way B-movies. At least, not in my view.

[Mattrick]

But I also quote "a lively, energetic film uninhibited by the constraints imposed on more expensive projects and unburdened by the conventions of putatively "serious" independent film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_film)."...which is Total Recall and Robocop. They are lively films that have fun with themselves and take themselves just seriously enough without taking themselves too seriously - this is the difference between the remakes of both films and the original.

[pathoftheturtle]

You think that every choice in Robocop was solely for artistic purposes? Robocop? Nothing gratutious? :wtf:

[mae]

You think that every choice in Robocop was solely for artistic purposes? Robocop?

RoboCop is an arthouse satire masquerading as an action/sci-fi movie.

[Mattrick]

You could also argue Robocop is just a grindhouse type of film. From that wikipedia article: "on the one hand, many B movies display a high degree of craft and aesthetic ingenuity; on the other, the primary interest of many inexpensive exploitation films (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_film) is prurient. In some cases, both may be true." So if Robocop is an arthouse film it does have a high degree of craft and aesthetic ingenuity while also having a primary interest of exploitation. Robocop being a B-movie isn't an insult, that's just what it is.

[mae]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqMbjM4R9o4

[mae]

So if Robocop is an arthouse film it does have a high degree of craft and aesthetic ingenuity while also having a primary interest of exploitation. Robocop being a B-movie isn't an insult, that's just what it is.

I tend to think RoboCop's primary intent is satirizing consumerism and violence.

[Mattrick]

And it satirizes violence by exploiting it gratituitously. Demolition Man satirizes violence by showing a bubbly world where it's been all but eradicated (as well as sex, drinking etc.) where violence is all that ends being able to save it. Both are B-movies that have some very similarly aimed satire in them.

[needfulthings]

So if Robocop is an arthouse film it does have a high degree of craft and aesthetic ingenuity while also having a primary interest of exploitation. Robocop being a B-movie isn't an insult, that's just what it is.

I tend to think RoboCop's primary intent is satirizing consumerism and violence.
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/4926/9y7e.jpg

[pathoftheturtle]

It's slighty hypocritical in that. Not as badly as The Running Man movie, but I think they still primarily wanted to sell tickets.

[Still Servant]

Well, I don't realy blog or record standardized grades on a consistent basis. I kind of just threw those out as metaphor of a slightly more systemized version of Jean's boredometer. Offhand, I do think I liked MR less, but that one I might be persuaded to watch again.

Actually, quite a few critics enjoyed Independence Day. Using the small sample size of Rotten Tomatoes, Independence Day has 60% fresh reviews. That's not that bad.I'm not sure how your comment relates to the part of conversation you replied to. Maybe I didn't come across right -- do you think the reason I said that I might be persuaded to watch MR again is that Mattrick quoted a critic who liked it? It's not that simple. Actually, I remember ideas in that film that I believe I would enjoy discussing further, even though I think that there were some logic problems in how it was carried out dramatically. As for ID4, however, I remember the ideas there, too, only too well; the central moral is that diplomacy is foolish and nuclear bombs are the best and most satisfying way to solve problems, as well as that the U.S. would sure be lucky to have a fighter pilot president in a crisis. So of course it's popular. But all I can say, I guess, is that I myself despise Independence Day and The Fifth Element. Two films I watched as a teen that bring back foul memories. I know many people disagree, but I don't care.

I quoted the wrong post from you by mistake. This is the one I meant to quote:


If I have to be a conformist, I'd rather be trying to fit in with ID4 critics than with ID4 fans.

The one where you called anybody who likes Independence Day a conformist.

[Merlin1958]

Eagle one, Fox three.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ll9FkdCo0


"I want you to look after this guy"!!!

As far as air battles go, it don't get much better than this!!! This movie was GREAT summer, Sci-Fi, fun!!! You can admit it, it's okay to enjoy this film even if you are a "Movie Critic". We won't tell!!!

[pathoftheturtle]

I quoted the wrong post from you by mistake. This is the one I meant to quote:

The one where you called anybody who likes Independence Day a conformist.


... I love Independence Day and The Fifth Element. Two films I watched as a teen that bring back fond memories. I know many people disagree, but I don't care.If I have to be a conformist, I'd rather be trying to fit in with ID4 critics than with ID4 fans.You said you weren't going to change your position just to conform to people who don't like it, so I said that street goes both ways. Either anybody who doesn't like ID4 is a conformist and anybody who does like it is also a conformist, or else not everybody who likes it is just conforming AND not everybody who dislikes it is just conforming to others.

And when I said I'd rather be with the critics, I wasn't talking about professional critics necessarily; I just meant "critics" in the generic sense. Showing that many people (of whatever persuasion) happen to agree with you does not support an argument that conformity is not your own main motive.


... You can admit it, it's okay to enjoy this film even if you are a "Movie Critic". We won't tell!!!I must be lying. The apparent fact that I have no reason to lie must be illusory. Secretly, I must feel the same way that you do. How self-righteous!

If you want to know, I'll tell you how I feel all the time: I don't know if you have ever had the same experience, but maybe you will be able to relate, maybe. Did you ever hear an annoying song you never liked played on the radio over and over until you want to scream... and then you hear Weird Al making fun of it, and you have to laugh in relief because a part of you is saying "Thank God I'm not the only person in the world who thinks that damn song is so stupid!" ...?

There was an old joke about some terrorists breaking into a rehearsal and taking captive Billy Ray Cyrus and one of his stagehands. The ransom was refused, so they decided to kill them. Finally, they asked if the men had any last requests. "Well," said Cyrus, "I guess I'd just like to play 'Achy Breaky Heart' one last time." The head terrorist said "Okay." and to the stagehand, "What about you? Any last request?"
And he said, "Yeah. Please kill me first!"

That's how I feel about Independence Day! I have not always enjoyed it, secretly or otherwise: who enjoys groaning involuntarily and having to roll their eyes? Maybe I'm just pretending that I'm not exactly the same as you guys. I guess there's no way that I could prove I'm not... but what if some people really do feel differently? Did you ever think of that?