Best Sci-Fi Tournament -- Round 1, Group O

[fernandito]

http://www.zone-sf.com/images/et-20th.jpg

http://www.cinemacom.com/50s-sci-fi/on-the-beach.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/The_Matrix_Poster.jpg

http://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/release_boxshots/4127-0b88262a198590dc12684f5c3d0c72bf/660_box_348x490_original.jpg

http://movie4u.org/static/img/1385916064248-cb2c.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Alien_movie_poster.jpg

http://blog.mugglenet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/abouttime.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/Demolition_man.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c4/Colossus_the_forbin_project_movie_poster.jpg/220px-Colossus_the_forbin_project_movie_poster.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oimXMB1aogo/Tw9vEFLeanI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/sONAbjg0Jm0/s400/chronicle_film-poster.jpg

[fernandito]

The Matrix and Alien, because obviously.

Demolition Man is a guilty pleasure :blush:

[mae]

Coming soon:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfhEXhy_eCQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awm50kJQeeI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cd1Y_oBys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wemRBFFbhKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S22MvnMq5is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf99ouvFBJw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlU7aqdQhzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTrELyA8prM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmSsXoPxi0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bzCDVPPwCA

[mae]

Going with:

E.T.
On The Beach
The Matrix
Things to Come
The Butterfly Effect
Alien

[DoctorDodge]

ET is still an incredibly beautiful story that left its mark on a lot of films since, The Matrix is a virtually perfect blend of action, science fiction and deep philisophical themes (and while the sequels weren't that great, I can appreciate where the filmmakers wanted to go, at least), Alien is by far one of my favourite movies of science fiction and horror ever made, and Chronicle really surprised me. It's got some inspiration from the superhero genre, but feels quite a bit more grounded than most takes, and I love the suspense there is in it throughout. So it easily gets my vote here.

[Randall Flagg]

Matrix and Alien only.

[Ben Staad]

You have to give some love to the three seashells.

[Mattrick]

The Matrix
Alien
Demolition Man (my nom)
Chronicle (my nom)

I think I nominated 12 films almost half of them got into two groups....it's a C-O-Nspiracy!


Demolition Man rules and for a fun action movie it has a lot of palpable commentary that shows the extremes of political correctness and 'being nice' lol/

The Matrix is a classic sci-fi film but compared to other films (as I imagine it will advance) I won't be giving it my vote in crunch times.

Alien is about as classic as you can get for a sci-fi film and there are few films that have influenced multiple genres as heavily as Alien has. It's easily a sci-fi masterpiece as well as a horror masterpiece which is the rarest of rares.

Chronicle shows superpowers like how comic book films wish they could have. This is THE comic book origin film that has no comic book origin. The (alien?) technology that made them what they are is never fully explained which is okay since all that matters anyways is how it affects us psychologically. Also a very unique and clever twist on found footage films which, after seeing the film 5 or 6 times as left me asking....who/what editted what we are watching?

[pathoftheturtle]

They were talking about remaking The Forbin Project for a couple of years. I thought it might be for the best when it fell through cause I doubted they could do better than the original, -it's a product of another era- but if nobody recognizes that classic, then maybe it should be remade. If that's what it takes to get attention.

[mae]

I hope The Butterfly Effect gets enough votes to move on, it's a very strong and underrated film.

[webstar1000]

The matrix wins.

[fernandito]

After Alien, The Matrix is the best film on here. That film just took the world by storm. It's a shame the sequels were never able to live up to the name.

[Merlin1958]

After Alien, The Matrix is the best film on here. That film just took the world by storm. It's a shame the sequels were never able to live up to the name.


Oh, IDK. Reloaded has long been my favorite Matrix film. "Hmmm, upgrades" and the Marovingian scene in the restaurant is a classic as is the "Freeway" chase.

[pathoftheturtle]

I agree "Reloaded" has some good scenes and nice effects, but it doesn't have resolution and structure to stand beside the first film, which is good on its own. As a trilogy, the better parts ultimately drown in a mishmash of pretension.

[fernandito]

For me, one of the primary reasons the sequels could never match the original is that Neo is ridiculously overpowered, neutering the suspense.

Some of the best segments of the first film were the members of the resistance very narrowly escaping the virtual clutches of the omni present Agents. The bit where the team scales down the inner wall of the hotel to avoid capture was dripping with tension. All of that gets diluted in the sequels were Neo can single-handedly dispose of a platoon of Agents, seemingly effortlessly.

I can see where that might have been an organic evolution of the narrative, but it came at the cost of a crucial element.

[Merlin1958]

For me, one of the primary reasons the sequels could never match the original is that Neo is ridiculously overpowered, neutering the suspense.

Some of the best segments of the first film were the members of the resistance very narrowly escaping the virtual clutches of the omni present Agents. The bit where the team scales down the inner wall of the hotel to avoid capture was dripping with tension. All of that gets diluted in the sequels were Neo can single-handedly dispose of a platoon of Agents, seemingly effortlessly.

I can see where that might have been an organic evolution of the narrative, but it came at the cost of a crucial element.

I understand what you mean, Ferny but are you telling me you weren't mesmerized by the Marovingian? Or gripping your seat when they hit the "Freeway"? Or engrossed in the the closing scenes? Just a little? LOL

[fernandito]

Oh, absolutely I do! The highway chase scene in Reloaded is probably my favorite set piece of the entire series. That entire segment is high concept executed with verve and imagination. Trinity navigating and zig zagging through incoming traffic was nicely choreographed and is always a pleasure to watch.

[needfulthings]

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/4079/25c817.jpg

[Heather19]

The Butterfly Effect
Alien
Chronicle

I absolutely loved About Time, but don't consider it sci-fi at all so I couldn't vote for it.

[mae]

Utterly surprised by the votes for Demolition Man. To me it's a really bad '90s flick. Suppose it's that so-bad-it's-good variety? :confused:

[Still Servant]

For me, one of the primary reasons the sequels could never match the original is that Neo is ridiculously overpowered, neutering the suspense.

Some of the best segments of the first film were the members of the resistance very narrowly escaping the virtual clutches of the omni present Agents. The bit where the team scales down the inner wall of the hotel to avoid capture was dripping with tension. All of that gets diluted in the sequels were Neo can single-handedly dispose of a platoon of Agents, seemingly effortlessly.

I can see where that might have been an organic evolution of the narrative, but it came at the cost of a crucial element.

This.

You'll never beat a film that shows the progression of a regular guy that learns he is special and then that journey of him finding who he really is. That alone makes The Matrix the best film in the series. I know it's a cliche story arc that has been done a million times, but it just works perfectly here. I also think The Matrix is great because you are learning about this world. Once the second and third films come around, we already know about the real world and the matrix.

[mae]

I absolutely loved About Time, but don't consider it sci-fi at all so I couldn't vote for it.

Well it does have time travel. What would you consider that to be, fantasy, magic realism?

[pathoftheturtle]

There are countless romantic fantasy films not really grounded in science. Big, Prelude to a Kiss, The Invention of Lying ...and plenty involving "time travel" e.g. 13 Going on 30. Let's list more! Everybody contribute until this page is full, at least -- Contest threads still on their first page are all so hard for me to view with my DROID ever since my polite request to spoiler-tag groups of videos was ignored. :pullhair:

[mae]

Contest threads still on their first page are all so hard for me to view with my DROID ever since my polite request to spoiler-tag groups of videos was ignored. :pullhair:

I do apologize for the inconvenience, but after I did that and tried viewing them on my iPad, the videos within spoilers were distorted. They didn't fit within the spoiler field and so part of one side was cut off.

[mae]

So looks like Alien is another one of our 100% films. As expected, I guess, since it was the winner of the Horror tournament.

[fernandito]

Contest threads still on their first page are all so hard for me to view with my DROID ever since my polite request to spoiler-tag groups of videos was ignored. :pullhair:

I do apologize for the inconvenience, but after I did that and tried viewing them on my iPad, the videos within spoilers were distorted. They didn't fit within the spoiler field and so part of one side was cut off.

I think we'll do without the trailers for the second phase, I too experience difficulty while trying to view on my iphone.

[mae]

Right, trailers aren't needed again, and I didn't post them for the second round of the Horror tournament either. Anyone wishing to watch the trailer can quickly find the Round 1 poll with the movie. Maybe going forward we can list which films were in which group originally.

[mae]

The reason for the trailers is that I tried to find the best and most representative (and best quality, so HD where available) trailers, so that folks could get a good quick overview of the entire group, especially if they don't know some films or don't recall them very well.

[pathoftheturtle]

It is a nice contribution in general. Just slows loading too much all the times that you're not specifically looking for them.

[Iwritecode]

I can't see videos with my POS work computer and it's out-dated browser so it's no big deal to me either way. Anytime someone posts a video, it just looks like a blank post to me.

[Heather19]

I absolutely loved About Time, but don't consider it sci-fi at all so I couldn't vote for it.

Well it does have time travel. What would you consider that to be, fantasy, magic realism?

A romantic comedy/drama with maybe a little bit of fantasy mixed in. But I would never consider it a full on fantasy film either. Just because time travel is involved doesn't make it sci-fi to me.

[Still Servant]

The reason for the trailers is that I tried to find the best and most representative (and best quality, so HD where available) trailers, so that folks could get a good quick overview of the entire group, especially if they don't know some films or don't recall them very well.

The trailers are a great addition to the tournament, Pablo. Thanks for linking them all. I'm a sucker for trailers and it's great to watch a trailer for a film that I'm not familiar with. Hell, I love watching some of the trailers for films I love and have seen dozens of times.

Also, I never realized how many people used their phones/tablets to browse the site. Interesting.

[Randall Flagg]

Why not just post the link to the trailer? The link shouldn't slow loading. You could also embed the link in the still shot for each movie.

[Mattrick]

Can't we just post the URL without embedding it? Best of both worlds.

[fernandito]

All options will be considered.

[mae]

Utterly surprised by the votes for Demolition Man. To me it's a really bad '90s flick. Suppose it's that so-bad-it's-good variety? :confused:

No one dares explain themselves? :)

[Mattrick]

Demolition Man is awesome. I mean, it takes place in a world where Taco Bell won the restaurant wars so now every restaurant is a Taco Bell (that happens to serve 5 star, gourmet, cuisine and offer a rich dining experience). And it has Denis Leary playing his stand up character as a loud mouth abrassive man who wants to smoke, fuck and eat red meat (and he's a hero!). The mystery of how the three seashells work is perhaps the single greatest mystery in the history of film, a mystery that shall never be answered. It's like a super, futuristic world built in the image of the Cleaver Family's value; kissing and sex is bad and illegal, cops are basically all 'aw shucks mister' at any given time and seeming omnipotent computer systems issue you tickets for being a potty mouth (which reeks havoc on the foul-mouth, fornicating, ass-kicking cops/robbers of the past who are now in this future) and where murder and seemingly any kind of death are so alien to the society they can't even decide what to call it so they use the triple term of 'Murder Death Kill'. It's an interesting view of a dystopian society which seems so blissfully utopian until we discover the hedonistic sewer dwellers who believe the joy in life (or humanity) comes from doing the things the society above decreed to be bad and made illegal. Demolition man is many things; an enjoyable action film, a humourous comedy and an engaging sci-fi film and it relies equally on these three things not to be overbearing i.e., there's enough thought/commentary in it for it to be a clever satire of totalitarian political correctnesss, exciting enough to be an action flick (or old school action flick now) and enough solid laughs the keep the film from every really losing any steam. This is also one of the last movie Wesley Snipes made before he played Blade and just became a complete douchebag, or, as it's been said, he was Blade on and off the set, a dick.

I've now explained myself lol

[fernandito]

What Matt said ^ (because I'm too lazy to type right now)

[pathoftheturtle]

:doh: OMG, pablo, you really never heard guys talk about why they like that mess before? I had already heard far more about that years ago than I ever wanted to know! ><

[mae]

No, I don't think I even seen it since the ninetees.

[Still Servant]

Utterly surprised by the votes for Demolition Man. To me it's a really bad '90s flick. Suppose it's that so-bad-it's-good variety? :confused:

No one dares explain themselves? :)

Can't some of you guys understand that some people love certain movies because we grew up with them and they are a part of our childhood or teen years?

Pablo, I find it hard to believe that there aren't a few bad films that you like that other people think are crap. It's impossible for you (and a few other people on this site) to only like great films.

I have pretty wide taste in film and there are a lot of classics that populate my favorites list, but there are also a few guilty pleasures. So my question to you guys is, what are your guilty pleasures? Film wise, this is a family site.

[Mattrick]

I prefer a well-made, thought provoking film with strong characters and beautiful/atmospheric photography far more than anything else (which is why films like Her, Synecdoche New York, Frailty) are so high on my lists) but I can still enjoy B-movies that are lacking in those sorts of things. I can see how it is hard for some people to distinguish between a good B-movie and a bad B-movie but there is a definite difference between the two that isn't so much in plot particulars or anything specific or scientific but intangibles like passion and ambition that can make films so endearing to me, these are the sorts of things found in both Verhoeven's/Besson's B-Movie work as in the work of greats like Kubrick and Spielberg...you can tell when the people involved care about making the film they want to make. I can only ever judge a film based on what I feel it intended to accomplish and how well it ended up accomplishing it and to me that means I watch certain types of films with different quality requirements than others, you can't judge Austin Powers as you would The Godfather and vice versa. When you find genre pictures that work as genre pictures AND contain the things you look for in non-genre pictures is usually when you get some special films, like Minority Report or 28 Days Later (at least in my opinion). There are three sorts of films to me: films, genre films and films that transcend their genre.

[pathoftheturtle]

I put guilty pleasures in my combos. I know people have them. I can still call them on it. This is why Hollywood stinks.

[mae]

By definition, a guilty pleasure is something you enjoy (a film in this case) that would make you ashamed to admit it. Therefore, by definition, it isn't very good or highly regarded. That said, of course everyone's tastes differ and what some consider crap others love. However, there still is somewhat of an objective consensus and it would be hard to champion a craptastic film for a top-anything list. Obviously, everyone has guilty pleasures and finds good points in those movies. I nominated Puppet Master for the horror tournament fully expecting it to receive only one or two votes. When it received more I was extremely surprised. I love that movie (that childhood influence) but no serious best-of list can have stuff like that on it.

[needfulthings]

QUILTY PLEASURE!
http://imageshack.com/a/img840/9606/n066.jpg

[Mattrick]

Liking a B-Movie for being a B-Movie has nothing to do with guilty pleasures. You want to know a guitly pleasure? Someone actually enjoying Ridley Scott's Another Year or, even worse, Gigli or The Mexican or Runaway Bride or Queen of the Damned. I don't feel guilty for enjoying Demolition Man but I do feel guilty for enjoying Freddy Got Fingered.

[pathoftheturtle]

Sometimes, bad is bad.

I don't always trust what I grew up with, and I'm not sure that objective consensus is really achievable. But for me, Demolition Man, even as a B-Movie, is closer to the pits of Rocky IV than to the camp of Rocky III.

[mae]

Really pleased with the response to The Butterfly Effect. Such a great under-appreciated film (I guess because Kutcher's in it). But it's a really well done sci-fi story.

[pathoftheturtle]

Really pleased with the response to The Butterfly Effect. Such a great under-appreciated film (I guess because Kutcher's in it). But it's a really well done sci-fi story.

Well, it's a natural counterpoint to 12 Monkeys. Some fiction posits time as static -- even if you travel around past and future, every tiny event is fated. Directly opposite are stories presuming time is fluid and essentially unpredictable; tiny variations eventually result in drastic change. An equally uncomfortable notion. Films such as Looper and T2 moderate to some degree of elasticity; the course of events is possible but difficult to alter, thus some measure of control is conceivable. BttF starts outfluid highly fluid but then makes it harder in later chapters for change to cause total catastrophe. Subtly, so as to maintain suspense. Ultimately, though, there's more story in BE than the nerdy premise. They knew they needed a form of destiny to reassert or risk their film being merely formulaic horror. In the director's cut, this involved a controversial gimmick a little too basic and still closely connected to the one idea. I feel the theatrical cut was superior, depicting relatable human experience of inevitability.

[Still Servant]

Really pleased with the response to The Butterfly Effect. Such a great under-appreciated film (I guess because Kutcher's in it). But it's a really well done sci-fi story.

Well, it's a natural counterpoint to 12 Monkeys. Some fiction posits time as static -- even if you travel around past and future, every tiny event is fated. Directly opposite are stories presuming time is fluid and essentially unpredictable; tiny variations eventually result in drastic change. An equally uncomfortable notion. Films such as Looper and T2 moderate to some degree of elasticity; the course of events is possible but difficult to alter, thus some measure of control is conceivable. BttF starts outfluid highly fluid but then makes it harder in later chapters for change to cause total catastrophe. Subtly, so as to maintain suspense. Ultimately, though, there's more story in BE than the nerdy premise. They knew they needed a form of destiny to reassert or risk their film being merely formulaic horror. In the director's cut, this involved a controversial gimmick a little too basic and still closely connected to the one idea. I feel the theatrical cut was superior, depicting relatable human experience of inevitability.

Finally found a bad movie that you seem to like. The Butterfly Effect is awful. I'm shocked so many people voted for it.

[Mattrick]

Butterfly Effect was an interesting idea but I didn't like how it was done. Too much unecessary effects and tricks distracted from the human story they were trying to tell. It's not as if the acting was bad but the story needed more skilled actors than it had, the one true bright spot being Ethan Suplee who was the only real engaging one...imagine this film with Gosling and Johansson instead of Kutcher and Smart, it would just feel more authentic in the tragedy aspect. It was passible film but nothing I'll watch again.

[pathoftheturtle]

Really pleased with the response to The Butterfly Effect. Such a great under-appreciated film (I guess because Kutcher's in it). But it's a really well done sci-fi story.

Well, it's a natural counterpoint to 12 Monkeys. Some fiction posits time as static -- even if you travel around past and future, every tiny event is fated. Directly opposite are stories presuming time is fluid and essentially unpredictable; tiny variations eventually result in drastic change. An equally uncomfortable notion. Films such as Looper and T2 moderate to some degree of elasticity; the course of events is possible but difficult to alter, thus some measure of control is conceivable. BttF starts outfluid highly fluid but then makes it harder in later chapters for change to cause total catastrophe. Subtly, so as to maintain suspense. Ultimately, though, there's more story in BE than the nerdy premise. They knew they needed a form of destiny to reassert or risk their film being merely formulaic horror. In the director's cut, this involved a controversial gimmick a little too basic and still closely connected to the one idea. I feel the theatrical cut was superior, depicting relatable human experience of inevitability.

Finally found a bad movie that you seem to like. The Butterfly Effect his awful. I'm shocked so many people voted for it.I think I'm more conscious of its failure than pablo is. We both seem to sympathize with its intentions. That was an attempt to make a movie of perspective in time travel literature which had never appeared in film before. It was executed awakwardly. I know this is no masterpiece. But you have the wrong idea of me if you think I'm just an anal-retentive perfectionist with no tolerance for mistakes. I can recommend an interesting flop. I just don't find interesting films that make the same mistakes others have made again and again. Not sure how pablo feels, but I know I am more comfortable expressing support for a project that fell apart due to over-thinking than endorsing masses squeezed out by under-thinking. I confess; experimenting is not necessarily better than retreading the same territory, and sometimes I like to try experiments just for the sake of being different. Not all bad movies are created equal, IMO. But then, I never said that I can do no wrong.

[Still Servant]

Really pleased with the response to The Butterfly Effect. Such a great under-appreciated film (I guess because Kutcher's in it). But it's a really well done sci-fi story.

Well, it's a natural counterpoint to 12 Monkeys. Some fiction posits time as static -- even if you travel around past and future, every tiny event is fated. Directly opposite are stories presuming time is fluid and essentially unpredictable; tiny variations eventually result in drastic change. An equally uncomfortable notion. Films such as Looper and T2 moderate to some degree of elasticity; the course of events is possible but difficult to alter, thus some measure of control is conceivable. BttF starts outfluid highly fluid but then makes it harder in later chapters for change to cause total catastrophe. Subtly, so as to maintain suspense. Ultimately, though, there's more story in BE than the nerdy premise. They knew they needed a form of destiny to reassert or risk their film being merely formulaic horror. In the director's cut, this involved a controversial gimmick a little too basic and still closely connected to the one idea. I feel the theatrical cut was superior, depicting relatable human experience of inevitability.

Finally found a bad movie that you seem to like. The Butterfly Effect his awful. I'm shocked so many people voted for it.I think I'm more conscious of its failure than pablo is. We both seem to sympathize with its intentions. That was an attempt to make a movie of perspective in time travel literature which had never appeared in film before. It was executed awakwardly. I know this is no masterpiece. But you have the wrong idea of me if you think I'm just an anal-retentive perfectionist with no tolerance for mistakes. I can recommend an interesting flop. I just don't find interesting films that make the same mistakes others have made again and again. Not sure how pablo feels, but I know I am more comfortable expressing support for a project that fell apart due to over-thinking than endorsing masses squeezed out by under-thinking. I confess; experimenting is not necessarily better than retreading the same territory, and sometimes I like to try experiments just for the sake of being different. Not all bad movies are created equal, IMO. But then, I never said that I can do no wrong.

I don't think that. It just seems like most of the films you like lean to the more critically acclaimed side. It's just the first time I've seen you like a film that most people hate.

I was just being playful. I didn't mean any offense.

[mae]

It's rated a 7.7 on IMDB, so most people clearly like it.

[pathoftheturtle]

I was just being playful. I didn't mean any offense.It's cool, bruh. I used no uncertain terms just to ensure that things were clear. I ain't mad atcha.

Sometimes it's hard to see where other people are coming from. And sometimes, it is hard to see just why it is so hard for other people to see where you are coming from. But I did not mean to offend, either.

[Mattrick]

Personally, I think too many people get offended in such discussions. If someone loves Transformers and someone says Transformers sucks they take it as a personal offence, 'you insult what I like therefore you insulted me'. I thinks it's a product of both insecurity and people defining themselves by their choices in entertainment. Not saying that happened here but I've encountered it a lot. Maybe I have thick skin taking abuse for being a wrestling fan all my life but if people don't like what I like I either a) totally understand why someone might not like something I love or b) I think they are missing out on something.

[Still Servant]

Personally, I think too many people get offended in such discussions. If someone loves Transformers and someone says Transformers sucks they take it as a personal offence, 'you insult what I like therefore you insulted me'. I thinks it's a product of both insecurity and people defining themselves by their choices in entertainment. Not saying that happened here but I've encountered it a lot. Maybe I have thick skin taking abuse for being a wrestling fan all my life but if people don't like what I like I either a) totally understand why someone might not like something I love or b) I think they are missing out on something.

I'm not so much a wrestling fan now, but I was a huge wrestling fan growing up and long into my 20's. I totally agree with you about people taking it too personally and one person not liking something that you like isn't necessarily a knock on you as a person.

I have no problem with people not liking wrestling, but I do take offense when people trivialize it and make fun of it. I know a lot of people that look down on people that watch wrestling and question their taste in anything once they learn they are a fan of wrestling.

The funny thing is that people that look down on wrestling usually have things in their own life that most people would feel the same about. For instance, my sister used to get on me for watching wrestling and couldn't understand what people liked about it. Then again, she loves watching soap operas. Have you ever tried to watch a soap opera? They are dreadful. We are talking serious bottom of the barrel form of entertainment here.

So it's all relative. We just have to understand that everybody has different tastes in all departments. Not just entertainment. We've come a long way with video games, but I can't tell you how many people still look at me sideways because I play video games. These same people spend hours on their phones playing Candy Crush and games like that. Guess what, THEY ARE VIDEO GAMES TOO!!

It's so frustrating.

[pathoftheturtle]

Soap operas and comic books are cut from the same pattern. (Don't believe that? Just watch a little "Smallville.") And pro wrestling is just comic books for people who don't like all the reading. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to raise interest in improving our civilization. I just wish there were more video games about things other than crime and warfare. I don't support censorship. But if we don't let authoritarians dictate values in art and we also do not exercise choice in what we create and consume with personal awareness, then what is to prevent the natural spread of plain decadence?

[Mattrick]

Does survival horror count as warfare because it's about all I play if I can help it. What about something like Assassin's Creed or Mass Effect? Or a puzzle game like Catherine which is about relationships and infidelity? There are a lot of very inventive games out there that have nothing to do with crime or warfare. The problem with the video game market is that it's key demographic is 14-25 so a lot of games are catered to them, much like the way films are catered to them. The films/games for more discerning games/movie watchers are often smaller pictures without as much marketting.

Pro-wrestling isn't for people who don't like all the reading. Actually, wrestling fans read a lot. They might not be reading fiction but they read a lot. The market for books written by wrestlers for wrestling fans is pretty large with some of them writing multiple books. It all started with this guy: http://www.dirtsheets.com/static/51470593e4b0b35e942de2a1/5148fe56e4b08a5531f4a93a/5148fe6fe4b08a5531f4ad0e/1348322558823/mankind.jpeg/1000w whose autobiography (which is pretty huge too) was number 1 on the New York Times Bestseller list (he's written multiple books, fiction/non-fiction/comicbook) since. I've been a wrestling fan for 24 years, I hate comic books and I love reading. This is why I developed a thick skin with liking pro wrestling because people like Path have pre-conceived assumations about the sort of people who watch it i.e. reading comic books is really taxing to them. Whether people acknowledge it or not pro wrestling is an artform, no different than acting, dancing or performing in some other way. I appreciate pro-wrestling for the artform it is and those who ignorantly slag it like path, well, they fall into category B as I listed above. Wrestling is for people that can't handle reading a comic book haha I mus av emagynd i red ull dem buks n stufs bcuz dees comix b tuff in muh brane!

[pathoftheturtle]

For someone who says he has a thick skin about it, I think you're overreacting to one offhand comment. Certainly I was generalizing -- that was the idea. It was not really intended as personal attack. I happen to have known some people who absolutely did give up comic books because the writing was too hard for them. Of course, to assume that other people are like those you have known in the past is the very definition of prejudice. It's like what you said recently on another thread about Verhoeven, I think - the fact that a director can produce art doesn't prove that none of his movies are prurient. And the fact that literate people can follow pro wrestling doesn't prove that that is what it's for.

I don't know enough about video games to seriously discuss specific titles. I admit that. I do like puzzle and problem-solving games; that's one of the types I'd like to see more of. I'm not a fan of "zombie" stories. I tend to believe that survivalism in general is inherently anti-social and the zombie myth is bascially a convenient method for desensitizing people to the potential scenario of killing other people in social upheaval. What is a zombie but a supernatural metaphor for dehumanized outsiders to one's own tribe?

[pathoftheturtle]

I said we don't need thought police.
I didn't mean someone in particular must not be policing themselves.
I only brought self-policing up because…
…ah dunno…
…something about forums…
…The Butterfly Effect…
…?
Say Mike, did you like part 2 at all? It's sort of surprising how rare it is for sequels to get better. That case might be more talked about if it weren't still in its own way rather mediocre.

[Still Servant]

Soap operas and comic books are cut from the same pattern.

I agree with that. I will also say that wrestling too is very much like a soap opera, which I also bring up to my sister in an argument.

As far as video games are concerned, I can understand why it seems like the only games out there involve crime and warfare, because those games have really saturated the market. They are very popular. That being said, there are tons of games that have a lot more going for it than violence. In fact, there are a bunch of games (usually Indy) that are downright masterpieces of art and storytelling. Just like with a good movie, sometimes you just have to dig to find the ones that break the mold and are worth watching/playing.

Some games are forced into conforming to the violent norm in order to sell copies. A game like Bioshock Infinite was forced to add-in more combat against the wishes of the creator. A game like that is political, religious and social commentary wrapped in a blockbuster FPS.

Also, I'm with Matt, the Mick Foley book is one of the best books I've ever read. No joke.

[pathoftheturtle]

I've played some alright PC games, I just don't have enough interest in digging to purchase any of the consoles -- especially since they're all so quickly outmoded.

[Mattrick]

For someone who says he has a thick skin about it, I think you're overreacting to one offhand comment. Certainly I was generalizing -- that was the idea. It was not really intended as personal attack. I happen to have known some people who absolutely did give up comic books because the writing was too hard for them. Of course, to assume that other people are like those you have known in the past is the very definition of prejudice. It's like what you said recently on another thread about Verhoeven, I think - the fact that a director can produce art doesn't prove that none of his movies are prurient. And the fact that literate people can follow pro wrestling doesn't prove that that is what it's for.

I wasn't overracting. But there is a big difference between comparing wrestling to soap operas or soap operas to comics and saying 'pro wrestling is for people who don't want to bother reading anything; one is comparing two modes of storytelling and another is literally insulting the viewer. If someone tells me pro wrestling is gay I'm not offended; when someone says wrestliing fans are lazy stupid idots that's entirely different, that is a personal attack. All I did was point out was the ignorance in your generalization.


I don't know enough about video games to seriously discuss specific titles. I admit that. I do like puzzle and problem-solving games; that's one of the types I'd like to see more of. I'm not a fan of "zombie" stories. I tend to believe that survivalism in general is inherently anti-social and the zombie myth is bascially a convenient method for desensitizing people to the potential scenario of killing other people in social upheaval. What is a zombie but a supernatural metaphor for dehumanized outsiders to one's own tribe?

The zombie metaphor is extremely flexible and offers some good storytelling oppourtunities. Survival stories are as old as stories themselves. Stories were built on mythologica heroes overcoming monsters, epic journeys and the gods themselves. The storytelling and thematical possiblities with zombie horror is endless really. There is a lot of cliched, trite zombie stuff (like all genres/sub genres) but there are a lot of great stories and ideas that can come out of them. Your dehumanized outsider is one aspect of the zombie. There is also the loss of self. The hive mind. The mindlessness. The drive of base urges. The loss of conventional society, the nullification of currency, power, technology, refridgeration, medical care, government, shopping. ethics, law, order, rationality... These are all themes in most post-apocalyptic scenarios but zombie horror just has a lot of other avenues you can take it, the nature of what a zombie is (and in contrast what a human is) provides a lot of untapped potential too. As played as it has become there is going to be someone that comes along and totally re-invents it. While you may think it's preparing us it's desensitizing us to kill people, I think with todays technological and corporate dependable people lacking the skills it would take to survive in such a world it wouldn't take them far...sure video games might make it easier for someone to kill someone else in that situation but it won't help them catch dinner...or cook it, or treat that increasingly worrisome infection cut on their leg lol

[pathoftheturtle]

I call 'em like I see 'em -- I've watched enough scripted wrestling to know it's sripted poorly. Nothing ignorant about that. There's such a thing as good writing, and on the other hand there's costumed melodrama. I'm not insulting the viewers: I'm insulting the material. If different people want to associate themselves with that, I can't say what any one is thinking. But don't blame me if people just think that your taste is lousy! Personally, I'm sure there's lots of good reasons apart from that and simply being uneducated. i.e. lack of self esteem, mental illness, poor upbringing, temporary insanity, excessive drinking... the list goes on and on! Sorry if I seemed insensitive before.

[Still Servant]

My favorite part of wrestling was always the athletic wrestlers that had tons of moves. Seeing two great wrestlers go at it really is like watching a dance. The choreography is just amazing. I feel the same way about many martial arts films.

There are generalizations about every aspect of life. As long as we all realize there are exceptions to every single one of those generalizations, then we should all be okay.

[Mattrick]

I call 'em like I see 'em -- I've watched enough scripted wrestling to know it's sripted poorly. Nothing ignorant about that. There's such a thing as good writing, and on the other hand there's costumed melodrama. I'm not insulting the viewers: I'm insulting the material. If different people want to associate themselves with that, I can't say what any one is thinking. But don't blame me if people just think that your taste is lousy! Personally, I'm sure there's lots of good reasons apart from that and simply being uneducated. i.e. lack of self esteem, mental illness, poor upbringing, temporary insanity, excessive drinking... the list goes on and on! Sorry if I seemed insensitive before.

You did it again...you say you're insulting the material and not the viewr then you say people must have terrible self esteem, be drunks, be products of terrible parenting and be mentally ill to enjoy it...again, thats insulting the viewer and it just makes you seem like a douche.

[Mattrick]

My favorite part of wrestling was always the athletic wrestlers that had tons of moves. Seeing two great wrestlers go at it really is like watching a dance. The choreography is just amazing. I feel the same way about many martial arts films.

We're in a golden age of in ring workers and some of the youth talent is simply mindblowing. This guy Cesaro is ridiculously strong for his size and can do things no one has ever done in that ring while a guy like Seth Rollins is so innovative and his curbstomp finisher is deadly looking. If you have 20 mins check out this absolute clinic of wrestling ability:

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=cesaro&sm=3

[pathoftheturtle]

My favorite part of wrestling was always the athletic wrestlers that had tons of moves. Seeing two great wrestlers go at it really is like watching a dance. The choreography is just amazing. I feel the same way about many martial arts films.
Sure, Olympic wrestling is different -- that's sport, not fiction, and has nothing to do with how to judge sci-fi. Some martial arts movies are good; they can have decent story and acting, although they usually don't because it is beside the point for the creators and not how they generally look at their viewers.




I call 'em like I see 'em -- I've watched enough scripted wrestling to know it's sripted poorly. Nothing ignorant about that. There's such a thing as good writing, and on the other hand there's costumed melodrama. I'm not insulting the viewers: I'm insulting the material. If different people want to associate themselves with that, I can't say what any one is thinking. But don't blame me if people just think that your taste is lousy! Personally, I'm sure there's lots of good reasons apart from that and simply being uneducated. i.e. lack of self esteem, mental illness, poor upbringing, temporary insanity, excessive drinking... the list goes on and on! Sorry if I seemed insensitive before.

You did it again...you say you're insulting the material and not the viewr then you say people must have terrible self esteem, be drunks, be products of terrible parenting and be mentally ill to enjoy it...again, thats insulting the viewer and it just makes you seem like a douche.Well, if I go all the way and say that you're also brain damaged, then will you finally get that I'm joking?

[Still Servant]

Path, you gotta' throw an emoticon in there or something, bro.

Anyway, I was talking about professional wrestling. You may not be able to respect or appreciate pro wrestling, but I find it hard to believe you won't at least concede that it takes some athletic ability. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to do 90% of the moves that these guys do. None of us would. These wrestlers also make nasty hits look easy. They are literally taught the proper way to take hits and falls.

[pathoftheturtle]

Nobody understands my sense of humor. :cry:
I tried to express my opinion that it's like the lowest form of soap opera (although I believe there's some art that is NOT just the same) in a jocular way. I think it's overreacting to take that part seriously and overlook the gist.

Yes: they're athletic. Obviously. But isn't that off-topic here?

[pathoftheturtle]

Did you at least pick up on my facetious attempt to blame the butterfly effect for how this conversation turns out? :lol:

[needfulthings]

LOOKS LIKE THE BEST OF TWO WORLDS!:lol::lol:
http://imageshack.com/a/img902/4944/pkDIT2.jpg

[pathoftheturtle]

LOOKS LIKE THE BEST OF TWO WORLDS!:lol::lol:
http://imageshack.com/a/img902/4944/pkDIT2.jpgSubtitles? Still too much reading!

[Still Servant]

Did you at least pick up on my facetious attempt to blame the butterfly effect for how this conversation turns out? :lol:

Indeed I did. I thought it was very clever.

However, I couldn't tell if you were serious about The Butterfly Effect 2 being better than the original. I didn't even know they made a second and I know exactly zero actors from that film. Judging by the ratings, I find it hard to believe it's better than the original.

[pathoftheturtle]

How about I just call it "more coherent" then? It's basically a rewrite of the BE1 director's cut -- so no points for originality. Seriously, tho, what I think is just that talking about which is better would likely raise good questions on what makes a film good in the 1st place -- or at least about how true what I said concerning bad and worse might be.

I wonder if they had been forced to refine the script before starting the first movie how close it would have been to this and how that would have looked outside of Kutcher's shadow. Usually, such second guessing is pointless; it's against the nature of film. But if ever there was a franchise of which one could comfortably say that second guessing is the whole idea, it's this one. lol