Bioshock Infinite: A Discussion *SPOILERS*

[Still Servant]

Whether it's a book, a movie, a TV show, a video game, or some other form of entertainment, its true value is proven by the amount of thought and discussion it can elicit. Sometimes this is the case with material that's not good. Fortunately, this isn't the case with Bioshock Infinite. It's one of the best games of 2013 and one of the better games of the decade. It also features one of the best, most interesting endings in video game history.

I think we can have some great discussion here and maybe help each other understand the ending a little better. This thread will later be merged with the video game thread.

I'm not sure where start, so I will re-post something from earlier:

Bioshock Infinite and The Dark Tower have a lot in common. Both Infinite and The Dark Tower deal with multiple dimensions. Much like we learned at the end of The Dark Tower, I feel that Booker is living in a time loop. An infinite time loop if you will, hence the name of the game. There are a few examples of this throughout the game. One is towards the beginning when the Lutece twins (another possibility for discussion since they aren't really twins but just different versions of each other) make Booker flip a coin. Booker tosses the coin and it comes up heads. You can see on the sandwich board that Robert is wearing that heads has come up every time. This implies that Booker has done this many times before and always tosses heads. The bickering between the Lutece twins implies this as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjwTlOLlfVc

Another example is the song Elizabeth sings in the basement of the bar. The song is titled "Will the Circle be Unbroken."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDJudVBVNM

Obviously, the whole story goes back to that one point in time where Booker is being baptized. If he gets baptized, he becomes Comstock and everything that comes with it. If he refuses, he becomes the Booker we know who sells his daughter to pay a debt. By killing himself, this presumably erases both timelines. However, can we now assume that Booker lived a normal life in another timeline. A timeline where he keeps Anna and lives in peace is hinted at after the credits or is this just the start of the final loop and not the ending at all. Kind of like in the Dark Tower. Also, all but one Elizabeth fades away at the baptism. There's so much to discuss about the ending. I'm only scratching the surface. I'd love some of your thoughts.

This is a lot of text, but I will tease you all with something. I have a radical alternate theory about Bioshock Infinite that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else. I'm probably way off, but I'd love to get thoughts. I will leave that for later though.

[fernandito]

Glad you started this Mike. Hopefully we can get James in here for some solid discussions. Also, I spoilerized the portion of your post which references the Dark Tower, just to be sure.

I love the story, the gameplay, the aesthetics, everything. It's one of the best games of the decade and one of my favorite games ever.

One of the games biggest rewards is going back to play it a second (or third, or fourth) time and picking up on the subtle clues letting know how it would all end.

The game takes some liberties with the continuum aspect as we've come to know it, but it was for the sake of a powerful ending so I can get behind it.

I'll add more later.

[Still Servant]

Days later, I guess my two biggest questions are why is there one Elizabeth left at the baptism scene and what does the after credits section mean? If Booker died at the baptism, all the timelines with Comstock should be gone and all the timelines where Booker has Anna and has to sell her are gone too.

It's possible that the after credits section implies that we are looking at a different Booker who has Anna and lives in peace and harmony. I guess this might have been added so there would be a happier ending. I'm just not sure about that and feel there is more to it.

Of course, there could be a more sinister and morbid ending when you think about it. Maybe the point of divergence isn't the baptism. Maybe it's the day Booker gives Anna up. Multiple times he says he has to smother Comstock in his crib. Instead, he smothers Anna in her crib. No Anna, no reason for future Comstocks to cross over through space and time. Just a thought (a horrible one indeed) that I doubt has any validity.

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

I liked the first two Bioshocks much better. I've played each of them several times through. I only played Infinite once and had no desire really to go through it again. Waaaaaaay to many cutaways. Not enough game play. Too easy except for the end. The best game they have made is still System Shock 2, which was computer only. I like the Bioshock series though, but with the Vita chambers it is too easy. I played Bioshock 1 all the way through on a single life, (reloading the game at saved points rather than using the vita chambers) It was much more satisfying.

[fernandito]

Days later, I guess my two biggest questions are why is there one Elizabeth left at the baptism scene...
The implication is that she disappears as well. If you notice, as each Elizabeth is disappearing you hear a keyboard sound to signal their disappearance, right before the screen fades to black, you hear one final sound.



and what does the after credits section mean? If Booker died at the baptism, all the timelines with Comstock should be gone and all the timelines where Booker has Anna and has to sell her are gone too. It's possible that the after credits section implies that we are looking at a different Booker who has Anna and lives in peace and harmony. I guess this might have been added so there would be a happier ending. I'm just not sure about that and feel there is more to it.

That's exactly it. Tbh, I'm glad that scene was included. I'm glad that Booker's agonizing path to redemption was rewarded. I'm a sucker for happy endings.




I liked the first two Bioshocks much better. I've played each of them several times through. I only played Infinite once and had no desire really to go through it again. Waaaaaaay to many cutaways. Not enough game play. Too easy except for the end.

I love all the Bioshock games, but Infinite is by far and away my favorite of the three.

You say it's too easy, did you try it on 1999 mode while going for the trophy where you don't use the vending machines at all?

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

You say it's too easy, did you try it on 1999 mode while going for the trophy where you don't use the vending machines at all?

No, dont know what that mode is, but I might have to give it another go. I recently started going back through the trilogy and my PS got stolen with Bioshock 2 in it. Sooooo. I don't have a console right now. Was gonna get a PS4 pretty soon anyway. Does the PS4 play PS3 games?

[Still Servant]

That sucks about your PS3. Unfortunately, the PS4 is not backwards compatible, so you can't play PS3 games on the PS4.

Feev, I watched the ending again and I can buy what you said about the last Elizabeth disappearing with the fade to black and sound of the keyboard.

While I subscribe to the happy ending after the credits, I'm just not sure how it's going to go down. If you look at the desk, Booker clearly has some of the same demons he had when he sold Anna. There are bottles of alcohol strewn about, a gun and ticket stubs from a race track. What is it about this timeline that makes Booker a better person? Unless of course he somehow awakens with the memory of everything that just happened and therefore knows what not to do. Booker does wake up and say, "Anna?! Anna is that you?" Why else would he wake up in that way if he wasn't worried about her safety in light of what just happened.

If this is the case, I guess I would just need it clarified how Booker was given these memories if his timelines were erased because he was drowned.

[DoctorDodge]

I still have a great deal left to play of BioShock, but while I think it's a great game and love the intense and claustrophobic atmosphere of Rapture, I just loved the alternative post-American West atmosphere we got with Infinite so much more. I loved the many layers given to it too, not just of parallel universes and so many what-ifs? explored, but how it related to the characters, and even exploring the uglier side of history like with slavery. As for the ending...the revelation that Booker and Comstock were one and the same but in parallel universes didn't surprise me, but I loved how it was handled and explored with one single moment of divergence. For the post credits scene, I still don't know what to make of that. I think I'll need to finish playing it one more time at least before I can process everything.

[Still Servant]

I offer another alternate theory.

The first thing we see when we play the game is a quote from R. Lutece (either Robert or Rosalind, both are the same, as we know). The quote is, "The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist."

Elizabeth was referred to as the subject on multiple occasions. Isn't it possible that Elizabeth is just forming these memories and showing them to Booker at the end? I'm sure the quote refers to Booker, but it's something to think about.

[fernandito]

The subject in question was Booker, not Elizabeth.

When the Lutece say the 'memories' line they're dragging Booker from one dimension to the other. He keeps repeating "bring us the girl, and wipe away the debt". (Rosalind even says something to the effect of 'new memories from old ones')

We know that the line means that he has to bring Anna to Comstock, but his mind transfigures that memory to make him believe that it's about rescuing Elizabeth.

[Still Servant]

Yeah, that's what I figured.

Switching gears, am I correct in thinking that every time we die as Booker and respawn in his apartment that we are now playing as another Booker?

[fernandito]

Correct. A different Booker resumes the quest, hence the placard that Robert shoulders with the tally marks signifying the amount of Bookers that have attempted the rescue.

That was one of my favorite things about playing through it again, the subtle nods towards the amount of times Booker has attempted it, as well as the allusion that Comstock and Booker were one in the same. "I gotta get me in the prophet business."

[Mattrick]

When I select load chapter, how does that affect the game I have playing? Is that how I revist older areas in the same file? I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about the ending...it felt really anti-climactic because I was still waiting for something else.

[fernandito]

Whaaaaaaa? Anti-climatic? I thought it was perfect!

[Mattrick]

Story wise I felt more satisfied at the ends of the first two Bioschock games, the original in particular. It was lacking the menace the first two games had. The middle of the game drags a bit too. I didn't get the allusions to Comstock/Booker being the same person because then the entire catalyst for the loop is a paradox. If Comstock/Booker are the same person then sure that means Elizabeth/Fitzroy are the same person.

[fernandito]

If Comstock/Booker are the same person then sure that means Elizabeth/Fitzroy are the same person.
You lost me... explain.

[DoctorDodge]

If I'm honest, I found the Booker/Comstock twist just a little bit obvious, considering the nature of the parallel world narrative. That doesn't mean I didn't appreciate it and how well it worked within the story (especially with when the two deviated in their lives). It's interesting to note that in early trailers for the game, Comstock looks completely different, so I do wonder how long it was before it was worked into the plot and Comstock-Booker decided to disguise himself as a twisted version of Santa Claus (just as Suddam Hussein decided to disguise himself once by growing a massive beard and living in a cave, after all, it's not like there was any other wanted men he could've been mistaken for back then) to move away from his past. But the twist in the original BioShock game is just amazing - beautifully set up, and yet you don't see it coming because it's such an important part of your experience playing the game - in effect, it's one of the greatest subversions of a particular trope (in this case, linear objective-based gameplay narrative) ever. Realising the true meaning of "Bring us the girl and wipe away the debt" is another wonderful twist that I thought was excellent, too.

[Mattrick]

If Comstock/Booker are the same person then sure that means Elizabeth/Fitzroy are the same person.
You lost me... explain.

Think about it. Black (and Irish) bathrooms. I could be wrong but there was some dialogue I thought about DeWitt being Irish. If DeWitt is Comstock and these mutliple versions can create new memories and there are various Elizabeths/Anna's, it is possible that in some future Elizabeth is Black and Irish (Fitzroy is very Irish) which would account for her wanting to destroy not only Comstock but everything he's built. She is the leader of the Vox Populi (in Latin literally means Voice of the People) and it's said in a loading screen that 'Elizabeth has real feelings for the people of Shantytown (the poor, the people), ones that are like to get her killed'. Elizabeth is the one to kill Fitzroy (her feelings for the poor got Fitzroy killed) and when she's done she says 'I guess it runs in the family'...but this is a multi-layered statement; is she referring to her lineage to Comstock and her killing Fitzroy, her lineage to DeWiit and her killing or Fitzroy or who Fitzroy was in lineage to Comstack/DeWitt. Surely you must have noticed how similar they look:

http://dlwallhd.com/wp-content/uploads/Bioshock-Infinite-Elizabeth-Images-Wallpaper-HD-Resolution.png
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/_mLDosQ9b14/maxresdefault.jpg

[DoctorDodge]

To quote Reservoir Dogs, "There's a slight difference."

[Mattrick]

Granted there would be if you put some African American genes in there some features would be different, not to mention the mother would be different as well. Daisy has more Comstock in her face.

"Comstock...Fitzroy...the only difference between them is their name."

I also think it is not a mere coincidence that Elizabeth killed Fitzroy and Booker killed Comstock.

[Still Servant]

After playing Bioshock: Infinite, I watched hours and hours of videos discussing the ending and numerous articles fleshing out the story and I've never heard anybody mention that Elizabeth and Fitzroy might be the same person in different timelines. I'm not saying you're wrong, I've just never seen it. Interesting theory.

I thought the twist was pulled off very well. I usually catch things like the DeWitt/Comstock, but I didn't this time. James said he saw it coming, but I thought they played it very well.

Matt, I'd like to get your thoughts on some of the other aspects of the ending. I think it's a beautiful ending and I loved the father/daughter aspect of the whole thing. I still have questions about the section after the credits, but I've even come to a happy conclusion with that as well. I sense you didn't enjoy the game as much as I was hoping for. That's too bad. We may have over-hyped it a tad. Maybe another playthrough would make you enjoy it more.

One more thing, when Booker plays the guitar in the basement of the bar and Elizabeth sings I think it's one of my favorite video games moments. That song is so good and it fits into the story very well. It's the same song they sing during the credits. "May the Circle be Unbroken" very much plays into the time loop theme of the game.

[Mattrick]

I didn't see the after credits scene, I hit A and it just went right back to the main menu because I just can't sit through video game credits, they don't end. You can't skip the Assassin's Creed credits and it took almost 15 minutes for AC3 credits to end :/ To be honest the ending was very unimpactful for me maybe just because the last fight felt different from the rest of the game and then when I finally got past it I had to pause the game for awhile, then there really wasn't any gameplay left and I kept expecting there to be something more and then it ended. I wish I had of known I was at the very end of the game so I could have paid more attention to that fact. I'm about 3/4 of the way through it on easy (and my god is it easy on easy lol, haven't died yet and I don't even need to pay money to upgrade my guns) just to get some achievements before I do my 1999 mode playthrough. It's not that I didn't enjoy the game. The gameplay and the atmosphere and the setting is fantastic. The story just didn't resonate all that much with me and it almost seemed as though the game itself and going from place to place is just delaying the inevitable ending which I never felt in the previous two games. The flow to me was a little clunky and I wish there were more story elements involved instead of spending two hours helping Fitzroy get guns and in the end you don't even DO ANYTHING to help her get guns, you just go into a different world where they had guns already and I don't even know if you ever go back into that original world to see if you did do anything to change it. I'm going to pay more attention to the ending bits of the game this time around. It was this time around I noticed the Fitzroy/Elizabeth stuff.

[fernandito]

I don't think this game was any more or less "delaying" than the other Bioshock games. Can you really list anything significant that Jack does before "Would you kindly"?

I know it's kind of inevitable but I wish Infinite would stop being compared to B1. They're structured very differently, narrative wise. In the first game, Jack is essentially just an avatar, a blank canvas. He exists only so we can explore Rapture with all of it's dark history and thematic undertones. Rapture is the central character. Infinite is very different in that the story is Booker and Elizabeth, it's pretty much a story of redemption played out along the multiverse.

I have a strong feeling that you'll enjoy it much more time this second time around as you find all of the clues leading up to the Comstock reveal. As you're absorbing the clues you'll see Booker in a whole new light, wondering how he's been capable of doing the things he does as the reborn Comstock. That he's able to finally own up to the monstrosities he's committed and sets out on a redemptive path that is only achievable with his own self destruction is what makes the ending so powerful.

The end credit scene can be interpreted that all of the other timelines have disappeared or become untangled and the one which is left is one where Booker and Anna can finally be together.

[Mattrick]

It's been four years since I've played Bioshock so it's difficult to remember the exact plot start to finish. But the whole point of the first Bioshock was that the game manipulates the player into doing a bunch of dastardly deeds for the bad guy in such a subtle way the player doesn't understand what he's doing anymore than the character does, it's a brilliant twist on game objectives and mindlessly going from A-B just because a game tells you too without considering the consequence or reasons for your actions. At least in that game when you went from place to place for a specific reason. Bioshock Infinite just felt like a bunch of sidequests to me that were fun but not too memorable story wise for me. Like you get to a gondola and you need shock jockey to power it and you go on some long quest place to place, fighting enemy after enemy that really provides no story...Slate knows DeWitt from Battle of Wounded knee yet also knows Comstock wasn't at wounded knee as he claims yet has no idea DeWitt and Comstock are one in the same which makes little sense to me. They should have really trimmed down the middle of the game it was far too long of a quest to find tools you never find to give to a guy to make guns lead to a revolution (which starts without them finding the tools to give to the guy to make the guns to deliver to Ftizroy to get the airship) just to kill Fitzroy and steal the airship anyways which made me feel as if the previous few hours of gameplay were kind of pointless. That's where the game lost me mostly was in these second act problems. Don't get me wrong, the atmosphere surrounding what I felt to kind of pointless quests were great and the enviroments were so well done and it was a blast to play, it was the gameplay that kept me going and not the story which is a shame after how great the first two Bioshocks were.

[Still Servant]

Matt, pay special attention to the Lutece "twins" this time around. They are a huge part of Infinite and can really shine light on the story and make you think about it in different ways. They are two of my favorite characters in the game.

I really loved the Infinite story. I love the relationship that develops between Booker and Elizabeth. I also love the redemptive quality of the story.

[fernandito]

I love that the game fleshes out both Booker and Elizabeth through conversations they have during the course of the game. Their back and forth is some of the best I've seen in any video game, ever. "Are you afraid of God, Booker?" .... "No, but I'm afraid of you." Or how about "No one tells me where to go!" ... "Booker, you've already been."

For me Infinite is one of those games where the whole is much, much greater than the sum of it's individual parts. Everything works perfectly in unison.

[fernandito]

"How thrilling the launch,
how breathtaking the apex,
... and how terrifying the descent, as gravity drags you down into the inevitable."

-Comstock

[Mattrick]

Winter shiled does exist! Finshed playthrough 2...found 77 voxophones only and missed an infusion near the beginning. Will have to guide them.

[fernandito]

Schweet! Are you going for the Scavenger Hunt + 1999 achievements as well?

[Mattrick]

I'll come back to it. Taking a break from games for a few weeks before I play Dark Souls.