Whose responsibility was...

[Letti]

Whose responsibility was Susan's death? As I see we have many types of opinions and I think it's a quite interesting question. And an important one.
I hope we will get lots of posts and answers here you I'll add a poll, too.

Was it Roland's? Was it his fault at all? Whose is responsibility?

[jayson]

In my estimation, the blame should be assigned as follows...

1. Cordelia [she made the ulitmate decision to follow Rhea and castigate Susan]

2. Rhea [for obvious reasons]

3. The entire population of Hambry except Sheemie for participating in such a barbaric ritual

4. Ka, for placing Susan in Roland's path

By the way, yet another great question Letti.

[Wuducynn]

The responsiblity was all yours, Letti. Why?? WHY DID YOU DO IT???

[Letti]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

[Letti]

The responsiblity was all yours, Letti. Why?? WHY DID YOU DO IT???

I was jealous. :rolleyes:

[jayson]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

[Brice]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

absolutely

I agree with 1-3 of R of Gs list.

[Wuducynn]

The responsiblity was all yours, Letti. Why?? WHY DID YOU DO IT???

I was jealous. :rolleyes:

I knew it. The green eyed monster rears its ugly head.

[Letti]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?

[Brice]

There should maybe be a null vote for those who feeel it was some, but not all of the above?

[TerribleT]

I think Roland was completly innocent in Susan's death. I think it falls on Cordelia, and Rhea. I think the people of Hambry deserve some credit, but they were mislead.

[Brice]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

[Letti]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

[Brice]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

[Wuducynn]

I think Roland was completly innocent in Susan's death. I think it falls on Cordelia, and Rhea. I think the people of Hambry deserve some credit, but they were mislead.

I agree with Tt-y on this one. Not Roland's fault.

[Letti]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

He knew.
Or more exactly he didn't want to know so we can say he didn't know. He was a gunslinger. He should have known but he didn't want to see it.

But anyway I don't say it's Roland's responsibility, but I don't say he was innocent about it. He took some part in it.

(poll has been just edited)

[TerribleT]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

I think you also have to take into account that even though he'd earned his father's guns by this point, he was still a young boy. Young boys sometimes make mistakes that stem from not being able to foresee events that an older more mature person would. Plus they have a tendency to think with thier penises.

[Brice]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

He knew.
Or more exactly he didn't want to know so we can say he didn't know. He was a gunslinger. He should have known but he didn't want to see it.

But anyway I don't say it's Roland's responsibility, but I don't say he was innocent about it. He took some part in it.

(poll has been just edited)

He was a gunslinger. He was also a fourteen year old boy. He didn't understand everything. A young person in love can miss much.

[Letti]

What didn't he understand?

[jayson]

Ok, so perhaps blameless in causing her death, but not blameless in terms of not trying to prevent it? That's as far as I'll go towards putting any blame on a 14 year old boy, Gunslinger or not.

[jayson]

What didn't he understand?

For starters, I don't think he understood that her aunt would consciously offer her up as a sacrifice

[Brice]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

I think you also have to take into account that even though he'd earned his father's guns by this point, he was still a young boy. Young boys sometimes make mistakes that stem from not being able to foresee events that an older more mature person would. Plus they have a tendency to think with thier penises.


We both made somewhat similar points at the exact same time. :cool:

[Letti]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

I think you also have to take into account that even though he'd earned his father's guns by this point, he was still a young boy. Young boys sometimes make mistakes that stem from not being able to foresee events that an older more mature person would. Plus they have a tendency to think with thier penises.

So if you are a kid you have no responsibility for anything?

Anyway... as I have said it before. I don't say it was his fault but I can't say (simply I can't) that he was absolutely innocent.

[Brice]

What didn't he understand?

How bad things can go very fast maybe.

[TerribleT]

We both made somewhat similar points at the exact same time. :cool:

I quit smoking so....:clap: Not that I wouldn't LOVE havin a smoke with ya man...but I found out how much I really enjoy breathing :D

[jayson]

So if you are a kid you have no responsibility for anything?


I think kids have responsibility, but not necesarily the foresight needed to have figured out just how much danger Susan was really in.

[Brice]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?

Innocent of causing Susan's death, yes. All he did was fall in love with her.

But love comes with responsibility, doesn't it?


In this case he couldn't know where his love would lead, so he is innocent of this entirely.

He knew how dangerous it was. He didn't know the end, that's right.

I think he knew it could be dangerous. I don't think he fully realized HOW dangerous or how wicked these people could be.

I think you also have to take into account that even though he'd earned his father's guns by this point, he was still a young boy. Young boys sometimes make mistakes that stem from not being able to foresee events that an older more mature person would. Plus they have a tendency to think with thier penises.

So if you are a kid you have no responsibility for anything?

No, of course they have responsibility for what they knowingly do wrong.


Anyway... as I have said it before. I don't say it was his fault but I can't say (simply I can't) that he was absolutely innocent.

You can if I edit your posts. :P

[Letti]

What didn't he understand?

How bad things can go very fast maybe.

But guys... hey, if we don't understand something we have no responsibility for the things that happen? I am sure you can't say that.
I don't know. Maybe I am so strict because if I had been in Roland's shoes I would feel my responsibility, too.

[Letti]

I feel as if I were standing in the middle of a battle.... :D

[jayson]

... if I had been in Roland's shoes I would feel my responsibility, too.

I think he felt the same way Letti. It seemed he never forgave himself for it.

[Letti]

... if I had been in Roland's shoes I would feel my responsibility, too.

I think he felt the same way Letti. It seemed he never forgave himself for it.

Absolutely true.

[Brice]

We both made somewhat similar points at the exact same time. :cool:

I quit smoking so....:clap: Not that I wouldn't LOVE havin a smoke with ya man...but I found out how much I really enjoy breathing :D

I breathe just fine. *gasps*

[TerribleT]

We both made somewhat similar points at the exact same time. :cool:

I quit smoking so....:clap: Not that I wouldn't LOVE havin a smoke with ya man...but I found out how much I really enjoy breathing :D

I breathe just fine. *gasps*

awww fuck it!!!!!:cool:

[Brice]

What didn't he understand?

How bad things can go very fast maybe.

But guys... hey, if we don't understand something we have no responsibility for the things that happen? I am sure you can't say that.
I don't know. Maybe I am so strict because if I had been in Roland's shoes I would feel my responsibility, too.

Yes, you would feel responsibility that is not yours. That is just guilt and remorse for not knowing any better though. Think of someone who is mentally deficient/handicapped (I hate these terms) but, if they commit a crime, but don't understand what they did is wrong is it their fault?

[Brice]

We both made somewhat similar points at the exact same time. :cool:

I quit smoking so....:clap: Not that I wouldn't LOVE havin a smoke with ya man...but I found out how much I really enjoy breathing :D

I breathe just fine. *gasps*

awww fuck it!!!!!:cool:


:lol:

I wasn't expecting that. :thumbsup:

[Jean]

So Roland is absolutely innocent?
I blame it entirely on Roland.

People say he was sure she was safe - but he shouldn't have been sure, that's the point. It an act of his free will to believe what he saw in the glass. He chose the vision in the glass versus his own good judgement, and that's where he is to blame.

He was a gunslinger, remember? He had been taught to believe his eyes, his reactions, his common sense and his perception of reality. He had never been taught to believe any damn glasses. The only two magicians he had seen by then were Marten and Rhea, and so he didn't have any grounds to expect anything good or right or true to come from magic. If anything, he should have learned to distrust magic and avoid it, but he happily succumbed to the glammer of a vile, lying thing.

He easily let go of everything he had been taught. He betrayed the basics of gunslinging, whereby he forgot the face of his father. He betrayed himself and thus he betrayed Susan.

It's only him that I blame.

[Matt]

I agree with a lot of that and I also think its really about what Roland believed.

He obviously thought he sacrificed Susan for the Tower straight through so what better authority than the man himself?

I don't buy the "he didn't know any better" line of reasoning.

[jayson]

He obviously thought he sacrificed Susan for the Tower straight through so what better authority than the man himself?

I don't disagree that Roland blamed himself, but do are we not all guilty at some point of blaming ourselves for things which others might not? We're all our own harshest critics.

I just don't think at 14, even as a 14 yr old Gunslinger, he could have been expected to foresee every event before it happened. For that matter, the whole "well he was a Gunslinger" argument seems a bit much considering that the morning the boys rode for Mejis he had been a Gunslinger for all of one day. I'm not suggesting he could pull the Homer Simpson "it's my first day" excuse out of his gunna bag, but still, he was a 14 year old kid, and very few if any 14 year old boys have the foresight required to have been able to prevent what happened.

In any event, I put the blame MUCH more on Cordelia than I ever do Roland. When it came down to the wire, it was Cordelia's decision that Susan should die. She didn't have to agree to charyou tree. She was in a more direct position than Roland to prevent what happened. Hell, if we're blaming a 14 year old for not having foresight, how do we not blame Cordelia for agreeing to contract out Susan's body which set the whole deal in motion?

I wish that he had found a way to save her, but I don't "blame" him for not having done so. To me this was not as straight-forward a choice as "drop Jake, don't drop Jake."

[jayson]

this thread has prompted me to start another re-read of W&G. who knows, perhaps this time i will see it differently. it wouldn't be the first time a re-read of one of the books has changed my perspective. either way, this has been an interesting discussion, like a lot we've all had here lately.

[TerribleT]

Am I wrong, or did Roland not get his first look in the glass until AFTER Susan was dead?

[Matt]

I believe he saw her dying in the glass, that is how it was punishing him.

[TerribleT]

Right, but wasn't that after she had already been burned? My point being that in Jeans explanation of why he thought Roland was wholly responsible, he talked of Roland seeing it in the glass. He didn't obtain the glass until after she was dead. Then, looked into it, and saw exactly what happened. Maybe it was still before, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that he did not see her death until it was FAR too late to do anything about it.

[Letti]

R_G: He hadn't been a gunslinger for a day he was born to be a gunslinger.
And if a kid starts to play with a gun around the age of 14 and he shoots someone with it... can we blame him? I think we can. Most of the children do know what guns and pistols can do. They mustn't play with them.
But is that child evil? No way.

So I think we can blame Roland but we can't say he became a worse man with it... he made a very big mistake but we all make some.
But I blame them all... I blame Cordelia too and the folks who were blind to see they sent a lovely beautiful big-hearted girl to death.

[jayson]

R_G: He hadn't been a gunslinger for a day he was born to be a gunslinger.

So without any training he'd have still been the same Gunslinger he was? I don't think so. He may have been destined to be a Gunslinger, but without the training from Cort, Vannay, and his father he was just a boy. My point is, he doesn't automatically think like a Gunslinger just because he comes from a family of Gunslingers. It takes training, and when he left for Mejis he had just finished his training the day before.


And if a kid starts to play with a gun around the age of 14 and he shoots someone with it... can we blame him? I think we can. Most of the children do know what guns and pistols can do. They mustn't play with them. But is that child evil? No way.

Of course we can, and had Roland shot Susan to death I could see blaming him for it, but he didn't. So do we blame him for not shooting Rhea when he had the chance? Sure, but again I return to the same point I have made. 14 year old boys don't necessarily have the foresight to see every possibility. Ideally a 14 year old would not be put in the situation Roland was put in, but in a world that was moving on there was little choice. Sending him to Mejis put him in many situation that were quite complicated for a kid to figure out how to handle. That he came out of there with his own life is testament enough to his ability to figure out a lot of these complexities. It's unfortunate that the one he couldn't figure out resulted in the death of his true love, but I blame him no more than I blame Stephen Deschain for sending him there in the first place [or Arthur Eld for begetting all of them and their charry ka].




But I blame them all... I blame Cordelia too and the folks who were blind to see they sent a lovely beautiful big-hearted girl to death.

I still put the majority share of the blame on Cordelia. We can debate all day whether or not Roland should have/could have put himself in a position to do something. This is not true of Cordelia. She WAS in a position to do something, and she made a choice to sentence Susan to death. Her choice was more obvious. She knew EXACTLY what she was doing.

[TerribleT]

TerribleT and R of G have now established the Roland Deschain defense fund. Donations are being handled by the TET Corporation of NYC. Please contribute generously.

[jayson]

TerribleT and R of G have now established the Roland Deschain defense fund. Donations are being handled by the TET Corporation of NYC. Please contribute generously.

BeamBucks not accepted. Please send cash.

[Letti]

Jake didn't get such a long training. Nor did Susannah or Eddie. So yeah... he wouldn't have been the same but I am sure still he would have been a gunslinger.

14-year-old boy... that's not so little in my eyes. And he wasn't a simple oridnary 14 year-old boy. He was a young gunslinger, a sharp very smart one. A young man. You say he didn't know about the danger I still say he didn't want to see it he didn't want to count with it.
Maybe he had no other choice but still he made the decision.

I don't say I don't blame other people more than Roland. I blame Roland and that's my main point. It doesn't matter how much I blame him. Of course I am more angry with Cordelia of course I love Roland the same way but still I blame him.

Anyway you should argue with Jean. He is the person who blames just and only Roland. :D

[Jean]

in additon to what I said here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=89244&postcount=36) and to what Nikolett said in the post right above: Roland belongs to a culture where 14 is an age of responsibility, much as it was once in our own history.

He knew very well what was happening in Mejis, he might have formed an idea of what Rhea was like, he should have realized how much danger for Susan was there after she had killed two people everybody knew with her own hand, but he still preferred to believe a piece of magic he had, I repeat, no sound reason to ever trust.

[jayson]

You say he didn't know about the danger I still say he didn't want to see it he didn't want to count with it.

No, I think he knew she was in danger as long as she wasn't right there in front of him. I just don't think he understood how much danger and how immediate that danger was in the person of her own aunt. I don't think Roland thought she'd be fine, just that he had time to take care of Latigo's men before he met up with her.


Anyway you should argue with Jean. He is the person who blames just and only Roland. :D

I agree, but Jean made some specific points about Roland and the pink ball so I want to re-read that part and make sure I am clear about it all before I explain to him how wrong he is ;)

[jayson]

in additon to what I said here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=89244&postcount=36) and to what Nikolett said in the post right above: Roland belongs to a culture where 14 is an age of responsibility, much as it was once in our own history.

This is true Jean, and a good point. All of that said, do you really put all of the blame on Roland? Does not Cordelia own even a little of it for you? She put Susan in the position of being Thorin's gilly. She authorized charyou tree. These were conscious descisions on her part. If we are to blame a 14 year old [whether we think at that age he is a man or a boy] for lacking foresight, do we not blame a full grown adult like Cordelia as well? Surely she was wise enough to know one doesn't sentence their own niece to death no matter how pert she may be.

[Jean]

<...>so I want to re-read that part and make sure I am clear about it all before I explain to him how wrong he is ;)
... in your dreams! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif

[Letti]

Roland did know the danger and the risk. (And I think risk is a keyword here.) He himself said it many times and told it to Susan and to his friends as well. It was metioned a lot of time that they could die... and he didn't kill Rhea, either so how the blue hell could he think that Susan's all right?
He thought (hoped) that ka or Gan or the White or these all together would have to save their lives. He was wrong.

[Letti]

<...>so I want to re-read that part and make sure I am clear about it all before I explain to him how wrong he is ;)
... in your dreams! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif
:lol:

[Jean]

in additon to what I said here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=89244&postcount=36) and to what Nikolett said in the post right above: Roland belongs to a culture where 14 is an age of responsibility, much as it was once in our own history.

This is true Jean, and a good point. All of that said, do you really put all of the blame on Roland? Does not Cordelia own even a little of it for you? She put Susan in the position of being Thorin's gilly. She authorized charyou tree. These were conscious descisions on her part. If we are to blame a 14 year old [whether we think at that age he is a man or a boy] for lacking foresight, do we not blame a full grown adult like Cordelia as well? Surely she was wise enough to know one doesn't sentence their own niece to death no matter how pert she may be.
The same way we could blame her parents for having given her birth. People live, and other people plot against them to pursue their own petty ends; they scheme and intrigue and sometimes endanger someone's life, or more often just make it harder to live... this someone may go with the flow or rebel - that would have been her own choice - and then Someone Else comes, a romantic third party, to mess it all up, to bring her to the point of no return; and what's then? One could expect he would at least take care of her and protect her from those schemers and plotters? Fat chance. He's troubled the water as hard as he could and rode on following a glammer he saw in a goddamn glass.

In a word, Cordelia and the rest are just normal factors of a normal (hard) life. Roland is the only murderous agent here.

[jayson]

... in your dreams! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif

Come come commala
My re-read starts tomorr-ah
And when I find the part I want
That Bear's a-gonna holl-ah


Roland did know the danger and the risk. (And I think risk is a keyword here.) He himself said it many times and told it to Susan and to his friends as well. It was metioned a lot of time that they could die... and he didn't kill Rhea, either so how the blue hell could he think that Susan's all right?
He thought (hoped) that ka or Gan or the White or these all together would have to save their lives. He was wrong.

Letti, I agree that he knew she was in danger, I just don't think he knew the immediacy of it. I think he thought she was safe hiding with Sheemie. Should he have? Maybe not. Should he have killed Rhea when he had the chance? Without a doubt.

[Letti]

I might live in a dream-world but Cordelia is not just a normal factor of a normal life. She became insane. (Sometimes I do feel sorry for her. So did Susan if you remember.)
It's not so rare or unique but it's not usual either. Most of the people don't get crazy.

[Letti]

Roland did know the danger and the risk. (And I think risk is a keyword here.) He himself said it many times and told it to Susan and to his friends as well. It was metioned a lot of time that they could die... and he didn't kill Rhea, either so how the blue hell could he think that Susan's all right?
He thought (hoped) that ka or Gan or the White or these all together would have to save their lives. He was wrong.

Letti, I agree that he knew she was in danger, I just don't think he knew the immediacy of it. I think he thought she was safe hiding with Sheemie. Should he have? Maybe not. Should he have killed Rhea when he had the chance? Without a doubt.
Hiding with Sheemie... I am not a gunslinger but for me it doesn't sound so safe at all. Not at all...
If I remember well (I will have to reread that part again) it was deadly easy to find them.

[TerribleT]

Come come commala
My re-read starts tomorr-ah
And when I find the part I want
That Bear's a-gonna holl-ah


:rofl:

Fucking BRILLIANT!!!!!

[Jean]

I might live in a dream-world but Cordelia is not just a normal factor of a normal life. She became insane. (Sometimes I do feel sorry for her. So did Susan if you remember.)
It's not so rare or unique but it's not usual either. Most of the people don't het crazy.
but it was Roland who provoked her! if not for him, she would either have stayed relatively sane, although highly annoying, or become mildly insane without anobody caring


Come come commala
My re-read starts tomorr-ah
And when I find the part I want
That Bear's a-gonna holl-ah
Commala come come
Bear is slow but not dumb!
When adversaries are worthy
He swallows head and heart and thumb!

[TerribleT]

:rofl:

[jayson]

in additon to what I said here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=89244&postcount=36) and to what Nikolett said in the post right above: Roland belongs to a culture where 14 is an age of responsibility, much as it was once in our own history.

This is true Jean, and a good point. All of that said, do you really put all of the blame on Roland? Does not Cordelia own even a little of it for you? She put Susan in the position of being Thorin's gilly. She authorized charyou tree. These were conscious descisions on her part. If we are to blame a 14 year old [whether we think at that age he is a man or a boy] for lacking foresight, do we not blame a full grown adult like Cordelia as well? Surely she was wise enough to know one doesn't sentence their own niece to death no matter how pert she may be.
The same way we could blame her parents for having given her birth. People live, and other people plot against them to pursue their own petty ends; they scheme and intrigue and sometimes endanger someone's life, or more often just make it harder to live... this someone may go with the flow or rebel - that would have been her own choice - and then Someone Else comes, a romantic third party, to mess it all up, to bring her to the point of no return; and what's then? One could expect he would at least take care of her and protect her from those schemers and plotters? Fat chance. He's troubled the water as hard as he could and rode on following a glammer he saw in a goddamn glass.

In a word, Cordelia and the rest are just normal factors of a normal (hard) life. Roland is the only murderous agent here.

Firstly, doesn't Cordelia's plotting make her responsible for the results of it?
Here's another question from all that.. does Susan have any responsibility to protect herself? She's not just a pawn for Roland and Cordelia to play with.

Also, very nice response to the Rice Song stanza I used. We should start a thread where we only talk to each other in Rice Song verse.

[Jean]

yes... but they all are normal responsibilities of a normal every-day life situation. Roland took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage, and rode off. Following, I repeat spitting on the floor, something he (a gunslinger my ass!) saw in a piece of pink glass!

[ENDER1984]

UMM..IT SEEMS YOU GUYS ARE FORDETING THE GUY THAT KILLED SUSAN'S DAD...HAD HER DAD NOT OF DIED, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SAI THORIN'S GILLY, SO ON AND SO FORTH!!!

[TerribleT]

RoG I want you to know that I am not jumping in because it's been a long time since I read W&G. Not abandoning you bro, I just don't remember a lot of stuff. I'm almost done with Wastelands, so I'll be starting it soon. Perhaps we should pause this conversation until we've had time to do research ;)

[jayson]

Roland took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage

I'd say Rhea did that, at least with respect to Cordelia. In fact, I'd put the blame for the rest of Hambry's insanity on Rhea and Eldred Jonas, not Roland and his tet. Remember, the outrage was sparked by the murder of Thorin. The town only thought the boys did it thanks to Jonas' plans. If your theory is that Roland created the insanity by preventing Hambry from aiding Farson in his plans, then they deserved to be driven insane for that was not a noble cause for them to be following. If he caused the insanity by falling for Susan, it cuts both ways love does. She fell for him as well. She was a big girl, she could have said no.

[jayson]

UMM..IT SEEMS YOU GUYS ARE FORDETING THE GUY THAT KILLED SUSAN'S DAD...HAD HER DAD NOT OF DIED, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SAI THORIN'S GILLY, SO ON AND SO FORTH!!!

Good point Ender, and well along the lines of where I've been on this one since the begining. Like I said earlier, we could just as easily blame Arthur Eld for swearing his line to protect the Tower to begin with. The point is, Roland didn't cause Susan's situation, nor did he take advantage of it. BOTH of them made conscious decisions.

[ENDER1984]

I absolutely agree...best point i've read.

[Jean]

I'd say Rhea did that, at least with respect to Cordelia. In fact, I'd put the blame for the rest of Hambry's insanity on Rhea and Eldred Jonas, not Roland and his tet. Remember, the outrage was sparked by the murder of Thorin. The town only thought the boys did it thanks to Jonas' plans. If your theory is that Roland created the insanity by preventing Hambry from aiding Farson in his plans, then they deserved to be driven insane for that was not a noble cause for them to be following. If he caused the insanity by falling for Susan, it cuts both ways love does. She fell for him as well. She was a big girl, she could have said no.

but I do not blame him for that. It's for not protecting the girl he loved and abandoning her in the turmoil he created that I blame him, not for the turmoil itself. (OK, I could add another responsible party - civil war itself - but it's rather "what" than "who".)

[jayson]

Maybe now is the time to ask what would you who blame Roland have had him do? Should he have taken Susan with him to Eyebolt Canyon? I can't imagine a battlefield is the safest place for her either. She was brave as hell but surely not a gunslinger. Should he have ridden back to Hambry after the battle? If she were already dead would it matter? If she weren't, what would he do, create an early version of Tull by killing every man woman and child in town to free his love?

[Matt]

I absolutely agree...best point i've read.

Thanks for the non caps Ender :rock:

[TerribleT]

Maybe now is the time to ask what would you who blame Roland have had him do? Should he have taken Susan with him to Eyebolt Canyon? I can't imagine a battlefield is the safest place for her either. She was brave as hell but surely not a gunslinger. Should he have ridden back to Hambry after the battle? If she were already dead would it matter? If she weren't, what would he do, create an early version of Tull by killing every man woman and child in town to free his love?

THANK YOU!!!!! <-----bold caps, I was yelling :D *ducks*

[TerribleT]

I absolutely agree...best point i've read.

Thanks for the non caps Ender :rock:

Matt, is this really on topic

*ducks again*

:rofl:

[Letti]

yes... but they all are normal responsibilities of a normal every-day life situation. Roland took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage, and rode off. Following, I repeat spitting on the floor, something he (a gunslinger my ass!) saw in a piece of pink glass!

Ohoooo. In this case you should use plural forms, Jean. Roland AND Susan took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage.
Or is she just an innocent little girl or what?

[jayson]

Ohoooo. In this case you should use plural forms, Jean. Roland AND Susan took the situation beyond every-day, turned it abnormal, extreme; provoked people into insanity and rage.
Or is she just an innocent little girl or what?

That's where I was going earlier Letti. Does not Susan bear some responsibility for her own situation? Love is a two way street.

[Jean]

I am always inclined to blame it on the man, yes.

Though I don't mean their love only. I mean all Roland's activities.

Regarding R_of_G latest question: now I have to confess that I don't remember the text all that well (it's the volume I normally avoid rereading unless I have to), and was arguing for the sake of argument on general principles. It doesn't change my opinion on anything I already said regarding Roland's forgetting the face of his father, though (choosing glammer over common sense and good judgement). Moreover, even if there had been nothing he could do (which I cannot be sure of before I reread the text), he abandoned her nevertheless, dismissed her as being "safe", which (and this is the scene I remember very well) clearly reads as "no longer important".

::crawls into his den to brace himself for a reread::

[TerribleT]

::crawls into his den to brace himself for a reread::

LMAO

[sarah]

Cordelia's and Rhea's and Ka's. It all had to happen to start off the quest to the tower.

[TerribleT]

It all had to happen to start off the quest to the tower.

EXCELLENT point

[Matt]

Just to make my position clear, I really don't blame anyone but Susan for getting caught--she should have been a little more careful.

It was obvious the place was way too dangerous at that point and she really should have been carrying a gun I believe.

However, to the main question. Roland blamed himself for his lack of action where she was concerned, forever. More than forever--for all the universes in all times forever.

To me, if he was or not is moot because the man blamed himself. It colored his actions from that point on. It was his burden to carry and I agree with him that he should have felt guilty as hell about the way it turned out.

Same with dropping Jake.

[jayson]

Just to make my position clear, I really don't blame anyone but Susan for getting caught--she should have been a little more careful.

It was obvious the place was way too dangerous at that point and she really should have been carrying a gun I believe.

However, to the main question. Roland blamed himself for his lack of action where she was concerned, forever. More than forever--for all the universes in all times forever.

To me, if he was or not is moot because the man blamed himself. It colored his actions from that point on. It was his burden to carry and I agree with him that he should have felt guilty as hell about the way it turned out.

Same with dropping Jake.

Again, I agree with you Matt, but the question was who do we blame. I doubt anyone disagrees that Roland blames himself [if they don't think so, they are overdue for a re-read]. Like I said earlier though, do we not all blame ourselves at some point for something others would not? Isn't that one of the reasons we have psychologists in our world?

[Matt]

Yep, but I always considered them snake oil salesmen. Perception is reality and if Roland blamed himself, then it was his fault.

I know that seems strange but if we are discussing the character, he bore the blame, the blame was his. And I agree with him--he could have mixed Susan with the affiliation and his duties as a gunslinger, but never with the Tower. Very clear choice.

That choice killed Susan, the blame is his for that choice.

[Darkthoughts]

Like I said earlier though, do we not all blame ourselves at some point for something others would not? Isn't that one of the reasons we have psychologists in our world?

The other reason being that women finally realised if they wanted men to listen when they were talking, they'd have to pay them :P

[jayson]

I'm sorry Lisa, did you say something? ;)

[obscurejude]

Yep, but I always considered them snake oil salesmen. Perception is reality and if Roland blamed himself, then it was his fault.

I know that seems strange but if we are discussing the character, he bore the blame, the blame was his. And I agree with him--he could have mixed Susan with the affiliation and his duties as a gunslinger, but never with the Tower. Very clear choice.

That choice killed Susan, the blame is his for that choice.

Well put Matt. Eddie didn't understand that and its almost like King put that scene in there so we could hear Susannah say that is exactly Roland's perception. At the end of Wizard and Glass we are primarily left with the question of whether or not Roland can be redeemed with his new Ka-Tet. He sacrificed Susan and became a matricide in the cause of the Tower. Both of these revelations are contained in Wizard and Glass for the first time.

[Dud-a-chum?]

I chopse option four, but really, Ka was at work as well, here.

Look; just because Ka meant it to be so does not mean that there weren't certain people who helped Ka's cause. The obvious people who arranged and allowed it to happen, of course, but I also feel it was partially Roland's fault. He chose to leave her, right? He had already begun to obsess. This is why I think Ka allowed his love to leave his life-- Roland didn't deserve to keep her, because he didn't choose her to begin with. One could argue with me that it was still too early to blame Roland, but I strill feel the way that I do about it.

[TerribleT]

I chopse option four, but really, Ka was at work as well, here.

Look; just because Ka meant it to be so does not mean that there weren't certain people who helped Ka's cause. The obvious people who arranged and allowed it to happen, of course, but I also feel it was partially Roland's fault. He chose to leave her, right? He had already begun to obsess. This is why I think Ka allowed his love to leave his life-- Roland didn't deserve to keep her, because he didn't choose her to begin with. One could argue with me that it was still too early to blame Roland, but I strill feel the way that I do about it.

*bites tongue until he completes the re-read so as not to prove his ingorance.*

[Childe 007]

Yep, but I always considered them snake oil salesmen. Perception is reality and if Roland blamed himself, then it was his fault.

I know that seems strange but if we are discussing the character, he bore the blame, the blame was his. And I agree with him--he could have mixed Susan with the affiliation and his duties as a gunslinger, but never with the Tower. Very clear choice.

That choice killed Susan, the blame is his for that choice.

The choice that made Susannah a gunslinger.

[DinoMay]

Has anyone suggested that Susan's death was her own fault? After all, the tipping point was her falling in love with Roland. She knew how dangerous it was for both of them and Roland even somewhat warned her, but she encouraged him to continue.

[Matt]

Sure Dino, its clear that she shares much of the responsibility for her position. I just really think that since Roland obviously blamed himself, there is no reason to consider who was truly to blame in the context of Roland's frame of mind.

[Letti]

Sure Dino, its clear that she shares much of the responsibility for her position. I just really think that since Roland obviously blamed himself, there is no reason to consider who was truly to blame in the context of Roland's frame of mind.

Matt, I blame myself for everything all the time I can only hope it doesn't mean that I really have responsibility for all those things... I feel that but deep inside I hope that we blame ourselves much more often when we should.
*keeps hoping*

[Malficeus]

In my estimation, the blame should be assigned as follows...

1. Cordelia [she made the ulitmate decision to follow Rhea and castigate Susan]

2. Rhea [for obvious reasons]

3. The entire population of Hambry except Sheemie for participating in such a barbaric ritual

4. Ka, for placing Susan in Roland's path

By the way, yet another great question Letti.

well that right there strikes the hammer on the nail for my opion

[sarah]

shit happens on the way to the tower. bad shit. doesn't everyone share a bit of the blame on a quest?

[Brice]

No...all the blame is mine. :cry: :cry: :cry:




Actually, I think I gotta' agree with that Sarah.

[alinda]

It was Stephen Kings!!:onfire:

[Brice]

O Discordia!

[Malficeus]

It was Stephen Kings!!:onfire:

but but how could you say something like that? just because he wrote doesnt me crap i mean what if he went through a door and saw it happen just like cort got some of his riddels?

[Brice]

It was Stephen Kings!!:onfire:

but but how could you say something like that? just because he wrote doesnt me crap i mean what if he went through a door and saw it happen just like cort got some of his riddels?

I think she was kidding.

[alinda]

Wow! I was kidding, I didnt think anyone would misunderstand that. :doh:

[Malficeus]

lol i was 2 just felt like being smart

[MonteGss]

I take full responsibility for Susan's death. I only wish I could have choked her a little with my bare hands before I burned her. :)

I voted for Cordelia and Rhea though. :)

[Letti]

I take full responsibility for Susan's death. I only wish I could have choked her a little with my bare hands before I burned her. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/smiley/duncefm9.png

[MonteGss]

I take full responsibility for Susan's death. I only wish I could have choked her a little with my bare hands before I burned her. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/smiley/duncefm9.png

Oh Letti....I posted that just for you. ;)
I know how you love Ms. Delgado. :couple:

[Storyslinger]

I, like Roland, have the answer to everything.

Ka

[Letti]

I, like Roland, have the answer to everything.

Ka

:rolleyes:

[Storyslinger]

Ta Da :lol:

[Woofer]

I think Roland was completly innocent in Susan's death. I think it falls on Cordelia, and Rhea. I think the people of Hambry deserve some credit, but they were mislead.

Agreed. I think that was one death for which Roland bears no responsibility.

[Matt]

I think he bears some responsibility, in the same way that we all bear it for the decisions we make.

He made a choice where she was concerned, just like Jake.

[jayson]

I think he bears some responsibility, in the same way that we all bear it for the decisions we make.

He made a choice where she was concerned, just like Jake.

Though the choice with Jake was much more clear cut. Susan was not literally hanging on for dear life with a guarantee of death as one choice. It was more complex than that, and at least partly her own responsibility to protect herself.

[Matt]

I totally agree, I just think he shares it as much as anyone else.

Life is about choices, I think the Dark Tower is too.

[jayson]

i agree, he had a role in her death, though not necessarily a decisive one.

[HanzouNorak]

well, it would would be Cordeila and Rhea... sorta, yes they told lies and allowed the people of mejis to burn her.. but.. the word "responsiblity" leaves an amount of uncertainty, however, Roland had absolutly no part in it, he was occupied with Eldred Jonas at the time.

[obscurejude]

Matt, are we the only ones that blame Roland?

[Jean]

Matt, are we the only ones that blame Roland?
No. The second (chronologically, the first) Roland vote is mine, along with lengthy argument started on page 2 of this thread.

[Letti]

You should have a beer together in a pub, guys. ;)

[jayson]

Matt, are we the only ones that blame Roland?

i thought i was among the only ones who didn't blame him in some way.

[Storyslinger]

Matt, are we the only ones that blame Roland?

i thought i was among the only ones who didn't blame him in some way.

I've got ka to blame.

[Letti]

Matt, are we the only ones that blame Roland?

i thought i was among the only ones who didn't blame him in some way.

I've got ka to blame.

><

I mean...

:nope:

I mean...

:pullhair:

I mean...

:panic:









okay, in fact I mean:

:couple:

[Storyslinger]

:lol:
You knew it was coming.
:huglove:

[jayson]

what i mean is, it seems to me that while not everybody picked roland [bc we could only vote for one choice] a lot of people still describe holding roland at least partially responsible. as far as susan's death goes, i hold roland completely blameless.

[Matt]

I'm so glad to know there are at least a few that see it the way I do.

To me, the actual blame is irrelevant because perception is reality and Roland blamed himself. That makes it the only answer imo.

[jayson]

I'm so glad to know there are at least a few that see it the way I do.

To me, the actual blame is irrelevant because perception is reality and Roland blamed himself. That makes it the only answer imo.

i like when nobody sees it my way, it makes me feel special :lol:
in truth, i agree with what you said, as we've discussed before. roland blamed himself and bears the pain of that all the time. i don't believe in "only" answers though. i don't believe in Objective anything [no absolutes]

[Matt]

Well, it would make it the only answer for us.

Certianly not absolute where Roland is concerned. He could perhaps come to grips with his role someday.

[Brice]

i don't believe in "only" answers though. i don't believe in Objective anything [no absolutes]


But, if you absolutely don't believe in absolutes doesn't that in fact mean you do believe in absolutes? :orely:

[obscurejude]

You should have a beer together in a pub, guys. ;)

We really should.:grouphug: I couldn't think of a better evening. Hanging out with DT junkies and drinking. I'm sure the conversations would be awesome. It is a long way, however, between Colorado, Florida, North Carolina, Russia and Hungary.:(

[jayson]

i don't believe in "only" answers though. i don't believe in Objective anything [no absolutes]


But, if you absolutely don't believe in absolutes doesn't that in fact mean you do believe in absolutes? :orely:

ah but i don't absolutely believe in anything, i just have my suspicions. anything is possible, or isn't it?

[Brice]

Well, it's highly unlikely. :lol:


So you are certain of your doubt and doubt your certanties? :thumbsup:

[Wuducynn]

It's all Brice's fault. He must be Canadian.

[jayson]

I doubt that most certainly.

[jayson]

I heard Brice made Roland drop Jake too...

[Brice]

Unless a thinny opened up and relocated Boston to Canada I most definitely am not Canadian. :lol:

[Brice]

I heard Brice made Roland drop Jake too...

Now, that much is true. :ninja:

[Wuducynn]

Brice, since you're at fault, you are Canadian.

[Míchéal]

Susan in the DT comics is one hot cookie... for a drawing that is...

[jayson]

Susan in the DT comics is one hot cookie... for a drawing that is...

yeah, i'd do her if i were a drawing.

[Míchéal]

i wish i was a drawing... mmmm...susan...

[Letti]

Jesus guys... I think she looked so plastic in the comics.
Susan was a much better and hotter girl thm that.

[MonteGss]

I actually thought the comics made her too hot. Don't get me wrong, I liked it, but I didn't think she looked so "model-ish" in the books.

[Letti]

I agree Monte. I didn't imagine her a plastic-bunny either but for me that character in the comics wasn't hot at all but I am a woman so my opinion isn't so important. :)

Anyway the people who say it was Roland's fault.. do you remember where Roland made Susan promise that if anything bad happened to them (before the got to jail) she would go to Gilead with his guns?
But she didn't go of course... she broke her promise - not such a big wonder but still. That's why I can't blame Roland so much. He wanted to be sure that if anything bad happened Susan would flee with tears very quickly would never look back and would live her life with his parents... it was Susan's choice to stay.
All I wanted to say that I simply can't blame only Roland... moreover.

[jayson]

Anyway the people who say it was Roland's fault.. do you remember where Roland made Susan promise that if anything bad happened to them (before the got to jail) she would go to Gilead with his guns?
But she didn't go of course... she broke her promise - not such a big wonder but still. That's why I can't blame Roland so much. He wanted to be sure that if anything bad happened Susan would flee with tears very quickly would never look back and would live her life with his parents... it was Susan's choice to stay.
All I wanted to say that I simply can't blame only Roland... moreover.

very good point letti. part of why i don't blame him at all. she was more than able to see the danger and decide for herself how to act.

[Jean]

hmm

I always thought it just illustrated how little Roland knew about women at his advanced age of fourteen. How could she go somewhere with some stupid pieces of metal while [the one she considered] her own true love was in mortal danger?

[Letti]

hmm

I always thought it just illustrated how little Roland knew about women at his advanced age of fourteen. How could she go somewhere with some stupid pieces of metal while [the one she considered] her own true love was in mortal danger?

I am sure there are tons of girls who would have done that. Roland knew that Susan was a brave and smart girl but what she did was much more than that. It's not normal to take guns to get into a jail to kill two people who could kill you to free your love and your friends.
It's a very brave thing to do but not ordinary.

[Matt]

hmm

I always thought it just illustrated how little Roland knew about women at his advanced age of fourteen. How could she go somewhere with some stupid pieces of metal while [the one she considered] her own true love was in mortal danger?

:clap:

Yet another reason the man blamed himself I bet.

[mia/susannah]

I think Cordelia and Rhea have the responsibility of Susans death. Cordelia ws much more at fault, in my opinion, for prostitutuing Susan out to the Mayor for his gilly and to bear him an heir. I think that was totally selfish of her. Then when her plan failed, she went along with Rhea and had Susan burnt to death and the town helped and watched as she burned. I don't hold Roland responsible because he loved her and wanted her to leave and go to Gilead to live with his family

[Woofer]

I agree Monte. I didn't imagine her a plastic-bunny either but for me that character in the comics wasn't hot at all but I am a woman so my opinion isn't so important. :)

Anyway the people who say it was Roland's fault.. do you remember where Roland made Susan promise that if anything bad happened to them (before the got to jail) she would go to Gilead with his guns?
But she didn't go of course... she broke her promise - not such a big wonder but still. That's why I can't blame Roland so much. He wanted to be sure that if anything bad happened Susan would flee with tears very quickly would never look back and would live her life with his parents... it was Susan's choice to stay.
All I wanted to say that I simply can't blame only Roland... moreover.

First - woah there! Male or female, gay, straight, or bi - you have the right to your opinion about whether or not Susan was hot. For the record, I think the Susan in the comics looked like a plastic surgeon's sample work for his/her TV spot.

Re: blaming Roland or not: I am completely with you on that one. He shouldn't be blamed because he didn't even know what was happening at the time. Sure, he could've abandoned his mission and escorted her to Gilead, but aside from that, I'm not really certain he could've saved her.




Anyway the people who say it was Roland's fault.. do you remember where Roland made Susan promise that if anything bad happened to them (before the got to jail) she would go to Gilead with his guns?
But she didn't go of course... she broke her promise - not such a big wonder but still. That's why I can't blame Roland so much. He wanted to be sure that if anything bad happened Susan would flee with tears very quickly would never look back and would live her life with his parents... it was Susan's choice to stay.
All I wanted to say that I simply can't blame only Roland... moreover.

very good point letti. part of why i don't blame him at all. she was more than able to see the danger and decide for herself how to act.

Absolutely. Choice.



hmm

I always thought it just illustrated how little Roland knew about women at his advanced age of fourteen. How could she go somewhere with some stupid pieces of metal while [the one she considered] her own true love was in mortal danger?

:clap:

Yet another reason the man blamed himself I bet.

I agree. And it's not surprising he didn't know much about love and girls. He was raised to kick ass, not seduce women - or even play a courtly lover.


I think Cordelia and Rhea have the responsibility of Susans death. Cordelia ws much more at fault, in my opinion, for prostitutuing Susan out to the Mayor for his gilly and to bear him an heir. I think that was totally selfish of her. Then when her plan failed, she went along with Rhea and had Susan burnt to death and the town helped and watched as she burned. I don't hold Roland responsible because he loved her and wanted her to leave and go to Gilead to live with his family

Agreed. And I strongly feel Cordelia deserved a much worse death for doing what she did.

[Letti]

Cordelia's life was death even when she was alive.

[mia/susannah]

Woofer, I totally agree. COrdelia should die a slow agganizing death for what she did to Susan

[Wuducynn]

I think Cordelia and Rhea have the responsibility of Susans death. Cordelia ws much more at fault, in my opinion, for prostitutuing Susan out to the Mayor for his gilly and to bear him an heir. I think that was totally selfish of her. Then when her plan failed, she went along with Rhea and had Susan burnt to death and the town helped and watched as she burned. I don't hold Roland responsible because he loved her and wanted her to leave and go to Gilead to live with his family


Exactly. I loved how Cordelia set it up in Susan's mind from early on that being the Mayor's sheevin was the only way they could have survived. Bitch, doesn't even do her justice.

[Jean]

Woofer, I totally agree. COrdelia should die a slow agganizing death for what she did to Susan
I agree with Nikolett here: Cordelia was dead most, if not all, of her life anyway. Nobody could have punished her worse than she was already punished

[Letti]

Woofer, I totally agree. COrdelia should die a slow agganizing death for what she did to Susan
I agree with Nikolett here: Cordelia was dead most, if not all, of her life anyway. Nobody could have punished her worse than she was already punished

Yes. Cordelia might have had the ugliest life from the series.

[wildfire1290]

Why not just blame it on Ka? Maybe it was a lesson Roland had to learn or a hardship that Walter put on Roland in a way of trying to have him renounce his quest for the Tower? I'm not sure if he was wanting to go to the Tower at all by that point in his journey, but he was destined to eventually get there. (Supposedly)

[Woofer]

Woofer, I totally agree. COrdelia should die a slow agganizing death for what she did to Susan
I agree with Nikolett here: Cordelia was dead most, if not all, of her life anyway. Nobody could have punished her worse than she was already punished

Yes. Cordelia might have had the ugliest life from the series.

They could've tried! Like force her and Rhea to live together in a windowless, one room shack until they die - punish two birds with one stone. Oh, and with only beans, cabbage, and water for rations. Muhahahahaha!



Ha.

[Brainslinger]

I chose the Cordelia and Rhea option, but my order of most to blame is:

1. Rhea. She is the one who planned the whole Charyou tree event.
2. Cordelia. I don't think she is actually as wicked as people make her out to be, although she certainly is greedy. She definitely was out of order in the way she set up Susan as Thorin's Sheevin, and her constant emotional blackmail of Susan. However as far as actively causing Susan's death is concerned, yes she was responsible, and yes she went along with Rhea's plans. However, she was also insane at this point. That doesn't take away her responsibility totally, but I think it does in part.

It is interesting when Roland speaks of Cordelia "Dying that very night", he does so in a with sympathy, that she wasn't really all that bad. And for all his own weakness, he is a good judge of character.

3. The people of Mejis. They allowed it to happen, and they took part. Again, like Cordelia, they were not evil people most of the time. They were caught up in the whole shebang though, and they could have rescued her.

As for this:

"In a word, Cordelia and the rest are just normal factors of a normal (hard) life. Roland is the only murderous agent here."

Murder implies willful intent. Roland therefore is definitely not guilty of murder, not even manslaughter (or womanslaughter in this case. ;)

He may bear some responsibility for delaying and peering into the glass at his visions of the Tower. However, the only blame he should really take was an error in judgment. He is not responsible for Susan's death. The people lighting the fire are responsible for that.

I accept he doesn't see it that way though.

Of course, if he hadn't seen the Tower, would he have gone on the quest and all the things he accomplished? Possibly Ka would have found a way, but then it was ka that it would all happen anyway. So I guess ka is to blame too, but then ka can be pretty much blamed for everything, but people still have to take responsibility.

[wildfire1290]

I chose the Cordelia and Rhea option, but my order of most to blame is:

1. Rhea. She is the one who planned the whole Charyou tree event.
2. Cordelia. I don't think she is actually as wicked as people make her out to be, although she certainly is greedy. She definitely was out of order in the way she set up Susan as Thorin's Sheevin, and her constant emotional blackmail of Susan. However as far as actively causing Susan's death is concerned, yes she was responsible, and yes she went along with Rhea's plans. However, she was also insane at this point. That doesn't take away her responsibility totally, but I think it does in part.

It is interesting when Roland speaks of Cordelia "Dying that very night", he does so in a with sympathy, that she wasn't really all that bad. And for all his own weakness, he is a good judge of character.

3. The people of Mejis. They allowed it to happen, and they took part. Again, like Cordelia, they were not evil people most of the time. They were caught up in the whole shebang though, and they could have rescued her.

As for this:

"In a word, Cordelia and the rest are just normal factors of a normal (hard) life. Roland is the only murderous agent here."

Murder implies willful intent. Roland therefore is definitely not guilty of murder, not even manslaughter (or womanslaughter in this case. ;)

He may bear some responsibility for delaying and peering into the glass at his visions of the Tower. However, the only blame he should really take was an error in judgment. He is not responsible for Susan's death. The people lighting the fire are responsible for that.

I accept he doesn't see it that way though.

Of course, if he hadn't seen the Tower, would he have gone on the quest and all the things he accomplished? Possibly Ka would have found a way, but then it was ka that it would all happen anyway. So I guess ka is to blame too, but then ka can be pretty much blamed for everything, but people still have to take responsibility.

So...we blaming Rhea AND Ka now?

[Wuducynn]

Ka the perfect whipping boy.

[wildfire1290]

Ha ha i'm cool with blaming Ka

[Letti]

How can you blame something that's so untouchable? I am not a ka person but I think people have responsibility and not ka.
I'm sorry to say this but it's the easist to blame ka.

[Daghain]

The people of Mejis are responsible, and I'll tell you why.

They were not emotionally invested in Susan in any way, shape or form. Due to that, they should not have cared whether she lived or died.

Somehow, they took the word of a witch and a crone that this girl deserved to die.

What was in it for them? Nothing. Rhea and Cordelia get revenge for whatever wrongs they believe they have suffered, but what's in it for the people of Mejis?

Nothing. They are responsible.

Just my 2 cents. :)

[wildfire1290]

The people of Mejis are responsible, and I'll tell you why.

They were not emotionally invested in Susan in any way, shape or form. Due to that, they should not have cared whether she lived or died.

Somehow, they took the word of a witch and a crone that this girl deserved to die.

What was in it for them? Nothing. Rhea and Cordelia get revenge for whatever wrongs they believe they have suffered, but what's in it for the people of Mejis?

Nothing. They are responsible.

Just my 2 cents. :)

But mayhap all the people got caught up in the moment of the celebration. Remember, they were all pretty stocked about the celebration before it was happening.

[wildfire1290]

How can you blame something that's so untouchable? I am not a ka person but I think people have responsibility and not ka.
I'm sorry to say this but it's the easist to blame ka.

So could we say that maybe people just made up the concept of Ka just to have an excuse for their responsibilities that they blew up?

[Jean]

that's (part of) what I think about that concept

[Letti]

Yeah, there is a lot on what you have just written wildfire.

[Wuducynn]

The people of Mejis are responsible, and I'll tell you why.

They were not emotionally invested in Susan in any way, shape or form. Due to that, they should not have cared whether she lived or died.

Somehow, they took the word of a witch and a crone that this girl deserved to die.

What was in it for them? Nothing. Rhea and Cordelia get revenge for whatever wrongs they believe they have suffered, but what's in it for the people of Mejis?

Nothing. They are responsible.

Just my 2 cents. :)

They needed a scape-goat and someone who was a kind of a whore was the perfect one for them. I still say Cordelia and Rhea were at fault because they gave the town the scape-goat they wanted.

[Ka-tet]

Beacuse its late and i dont really want to think very hard on this subject....I BLAME KA!

[Letti]

I always say that the simples thing is to blame ka.

[MonteGss]

I always say that the simples thing is to blame ka.

Agreed.

[obscurejude]

Beacuse its late and i dont really want to think very hard on this subject....I BLAME KA!

You took the easy way out Scout.

[Unfound One]

:lol:

[wildfire1290]

Anyone want to say anything about anyone involved in the someone else category?

[bandito0]

As for "someone else", one could say that it was Olive's fault for jailbreaking/leading Susan down the path to where she was caught. Hart's for being such a pig and desiring her in the first place. There are such arguments for half the cast of characters in the book. I'm not saying that they are good ones, but they are arguments nonetheless.


For my vote, I said Cord and Rhea because of greed, jealousy, and anger. Cord was greedy (I want my piece of the pie!), and I felt she became jealous of Susan's true love, youth, and good looks. This culminated in her allowing the burning to happen, followed by her "heart/brain storm", which I took to be the aftermath of the realization of her actions.

Rhea wanted revenge on Roland for his killing of her snake, among other things. Her attitude/thought process I took as being, "You kill one of my loved ones, I'll stop at nothing to see one (or more) of yours dead." Done and done.

[wildfire1290]

As for "someone else", one could say that it was Olive's fault for jailbreaking/leading Susan down the path to where she was caught. Hart's for being such a pig and desiring her in the first place. There are such arguments for half the cast of characters in the book. I'm not saying that they are good ones, but they are arguments nonetheless.


For my vote, I said Cord and Rhea because of greed, jealousy, and anger. Cord was greedy (I want my piece of the pie!), and I felt she became jealous of Susan's true love, youth, and good looks. This culminated in her allowing the burning to happen, followed by her "heart/brain storm", which I took to be the aftermath of the realization of her actions.

Rhea wanted revenge on Roland for his killing of her snake, among other things. Her attitude/thought process I took as being, "You kill one of my loved ones, I'll stop at nothing to see one (or more) of yours dead." Done and done.

Rhea was pretty much in love with her snake. Kinda on the creepy level too.

[Letti]

As for "someone else", one could say that it was Olive's fault for jailbreaking/leading Susan down the path to where she was caught.

Olive? Oh my God, I can accept and understand many types of opinions but with this one I wouldn't have peace not even for a short second.

[wildfire1290]

Who was the Olive person again? I'm sure Letti will tell me with much emotion and how Bandito0's opinion is wrong to her. :nana:

[Letti]

Who was the Olive person again? I'm sure Letti will tell me with much emotion and how Bandito0's opinion is wrong to her. :nana:

When did you read this book? :scared:

[bandito0]

As for "someone else", one could say that it was Olive's fault for jailbreaking/leading Susan down the path to where she was caught.

Olive? Oh my God, I can accept and understand many types of opinions but with this one I wouldn't have peace not even for a short second.

Heh, neither would I. I was just throwing it out there as a means of stating my initial point, the fact that a person could make an argument for a lot of characters. Maybe not the best example, but she did lead Susan right into Reynolds & Co., even with good intentions. To some folks (most likely not on this board), she is at fault. Who knows, maybe Sheemie would have figured something out on his own...

[Matt]

That's why I always considered it a moot point. The blame for ones actions are always on themselves. However, Roland blamed himself and that's really all that is relevant from a perception point of view.

Meaning, ones perception is often their reality.

[Letti]

As for "someone else", one could say that it was Olive's fault for jailbreaking/leading Susan down the path to where she was caught.

Olive? Oh my God, I can accept and understand many types of opinions but with this one I wouldn't have peace not even for a short second.

Heh, neither would I. I was just throwing it out there as a means of stating my initial point, the fact that a person could make an argument for a lot of characters. Maybe not the best example, but she did lead Susan right into Reynolds & Co., even with good intentions. To some folks (most likely not on this board), she is at fault. Who knows, maybe Sheemie would have figured something out on his own...

Thanks. I guessed it was just an idea but it made my head ache. :)

[wildfire1290]

Who was the Olive person again? I'm sure Letti will tell me with much emotion and how Bandito0's opinion is wrong to her. :nana:

When did you read this book? :scared:

When it first came out, and that was the last time I read it. I've been meaning to restart the series but I just haven't gotten around to doing it. I know, i'm lazy.

[wildfire1290]

Wow...I'm an idiot. I remember who Olive is now. Oh well, back to the corner for me...><

[mallory]

Okay.. I dont fully blame Roland. He knew that they would never be the same again. That sweet first love grows old and tales are told. However he did love her. I think he should have done more to protect her or something. I know its sappy, but thats how I am. I think above all else, he knew, and he choose the tower.

[Woofer]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Roland have the vision of what was happening after it was too late?

[Letti]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Roland have the vision of what was happening after it was too late?

Yeah, he looked into the ball when Susan was just about to get burned.

[Woofer]

Thanks, Letti. I've always wondered about the "It's Roland's fault" argument for that reason. I understand that Roland believes it is his fault, but if it is his fault then it is also Cuthbert's and Alain's and Susan's and Sheemie's for none of them foresaw this. Roland needs to forgive himself.

[BillyxRansom]

I think everyone is at fault in their own way, even though I chose "everyone from above".

Rhea is obviously the conductor of all of this insanity. I'm not sure I fully grasp what went haywire with her, nor do I think I fully believe Cordelia was insane. I think she was just cruel, and Rhea was just a bitch. I read that something happened in her own childhood that made her go bat shit crazy, but as for W&G i don't remember reading about it, really.

Now, I also think the Coffin Hunters were to blame as well, and I am very surprised no one (that I could see) mentioned them. Especially that fucker Eldred Jonas. He was the biggest suck up to Rhea of them all! Whatever she wanted, he would do. Yes, it was all for that curse'd Glass, his greed simply got in the way of knowing anything more than, well, his own greed. The others were just lackeys, and they were influenced easily because they were sheep.

But now here's the thing: I think every single thing that happened, happened because of that ball. I think the fucking WIZARD'S GLASS IS TO BLAME! It possibly made Rhea go insane, it made Cordelia go insane, it even made Roland lose his sanity! The people of the town were just scared, they were not about to go against the few people who could destroy them all probably.

In short, the Wizard's glass is truly to blame. But then, I think that's ka. And everyone else is affected by ka. So... ka is to blame, but so is the ball, for I think that ball was screwing with ka a little bit.

[razz]

her's one for you: would Rhea still have done that if she weren't under the influence of Big Pink?

[The Lady of Shadows]

yes because she was a vicious bitch. plus roland killed her snake. that's what pissed off rhea and nothing else. okay, she was a little mad at susan and jealous of her. but i don't think she would have arranged to have her burned at the stake if roland hadn't killed that damn snake. "your screams will break your throat"

[razz]

touche
and why the hell do i keep calling the Grapefruit Big Pink? other than the house in Duma, it sounds leik a new gum from Orbit

[Letti]

her's one for you: would Rhea still have done that if she weren't under the influence of Big Pink?

Yes, no question.

[Silvermoth]

I blame ka as well. Theres something about the way she almost escaped with Olive Thorin's help but didn't that made me think ka organised it all

[Letti]

I blame ka as well. Theres something about the way she almost escaped with Olive Thorin's help but didn't that made me think ka organised it all

She never had any real chance to escape with Rhea holding the grapefruit in her hands.

[wiccangdess13]

Jonas and Reynolds are the ones who started the ball rolling, then Cordelia and Rhea and last the folken of Hambry

[LadyHitchhiker]

I thought so too.

[Letti]

Jonas and Reynolds are the ones who started the ball rolling, then Cordelia and Rhea and last the folken of Hambry

They did it because they were told to do so.
So I wouldn't put them to the first place.

[The Lady of Shadows]

it was razz's fault. haven't you seen his newest installment in "great moments in dark tower history"?

[LadyHitchhiker]

"Oh I stepped on your foot... it was ka.."

Yeah, I could see how a lot of people could get out of responsibilities by blaming ka.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

In my estimation, the blame should be assigned as follows...

1. Cordelia [she made the ulitmate decision to follow Rhea and castigate Susan]

2. Rhea [for obvious reasons]

3. The entire population of Hambry except Sheemie for participating in such a barbaric ritual

4. Ka, for placing Susan in Roland's path

By the way, yet another great question Letti.

Funny that you'd put Cordelia as #1 here. I think she was a very weird woman but I doubt she would have put Susan to death if Rhea hadn't talked her into doing it. I perceived Cordelia to be a Victorian woman in a sense. She always blames the fact that they're not respected on Susan and I guess she always looked for a way to be respected and looked up on by the Mejis folks.
Rhea, on the other hand, is a totally wicked character who had decided she was going to embarrass Susan as much as she could in any way she could on totally arbitrary grounds.
The Mejis folks also had a lot of responsibility according to me. They were the ones who longed for blood in a way and put her on the cart. Cordelia is pretty much among them at this point in the story: she was rejected by the man she had come to love and her niece had betrayed her by having sex with a boy that she was promised to and that made her shameful. Someone needed to pay and it was easier to make Susan pay for everything than anyone else. I think that's why all the folks living in Hambry agreed on burning her alive.
Does this all make sense to you ?
In the end, I'd say they're all to blame and I would put them all in a category that is "People living in Mejis and the surroundings (that's for Rhea)" but I don't believe in ka so I wouldn't say Susan had to die.

[Whitey Appleseed]

I think Roland owns a big part of her death. He failed to see Marten in himself when he took up with Susan, who had already given her word to be another's. King portrayed both Susan and Gabrielle, "at the window" and although Roland wants to blow a kiss to Susan, he ignores his mother, waving from her window, in fact, seeing her at the window is cause for him to forget what his old man said about the Pink. Notice who is influenced by the Pink, Rhea, Jonas, and even the Good Man is smart enough to send it away from him, and like Rhea and Jonas, Roland is quick to fall under its influence.

Roland and Susan made their choice, the rest is effect. What's that you say? The Quality has always had mistresses and those mistresses have never been asked to do more than be on call? Maybe, but that's not a part of this story. Jonas and Coral going at it has more ring of honesty to it that what Roland and Susan did. In fact, I wouldn't have been surprised to see them going at in the Great Hall--they didn't seem bothered to be naked in front of the other coffin hunter, whereas Susan and Roland sneaked around like thieves.

[jayson]

...whereas Susan and Roland sneaked around like thieves.

It wouldn't exactly have helped the situation for Roland and Susan to copulate in public. Jonas needed only to hide his relationship with Coral from Cordelia so as to continue his scheming. Roland and Susan needed to hide theirs from everyone for obvious reasons.

I still hold Roland blameless in Susan's demise. She made her own decisions about everything she did. Roland never forced or manipulated her into doing anything she wouldn't do of her own free will. If there is blame for Roland it's in not getting to her soon enough the night she was charyou treed, but I remain unconvinced that his other business that night wasn't important as well.

[Letti]

He failed to see Marten in himself when he took up with Susan, who had already given her word to be another's.
He should have seen Marten in himself because Susan was sold to another man?
For my part I am sure Gabrielle decided to start an affair with Marten. Marten might have used some magic but I think it was Gabrielle's decision, too. I guess she couldn't finish it when she felt she got a slave and a toy in an evil man's hands but still - she wanted Marten at the beginning. (Susan never wanted the old man she was forced to nod. Yeah, she nodded but not because she had any desire about him.)
Marten started the affair for
power!
And it's very important.
He might have felt something about Gabrielle but he wouldn't have given a damn about her if she had been a peasant from the village.
Roland and Susan's relationship didn't do anything with power.
And I could go on and on (with the differences.) So I couldn't disagree more about the two relationships.


King portrayed both Susan and Gabrielle, "at the window" and although Roland wants to blow a kiss to Susan, he ignores his mother,
Nice catch. I have never thought of this before. Anyway I can understand Roland. He and his whole family were cheated and betrayed by his mom. I think it's absolutely understandable that he didn't wave back. And you know what? It would have been a big lie if he had done so.


Notice who is influenced by the Pink, Rhea, Jonas, and even the Good Man is smart enough to send it away from him, and like Rhea and Jonas, Roland is quick to fall under its influence.

Because he was weak and he didn't have men who could have taken away the glass. He had no choice.

[Whitey Appleseed]

He should have seen Marten in himself because Susan was sold to another man?

Wrong way the phrase the question. Not what I said. There are similarities in the two relationships that nobody can deny. Marten and Gabrielle, apparently for two years, were sneaking around. Marten was not from Gilead, but there he was. For whatever the reason, Roland and Susan do the same. Roland was not from Mejis, but there he was. Sure, it takes two to tango and we're not told why Marten and Gabrielle did what they did. There's a great quote near the end..."unhappiness and shame are often no match for desire".

[Letti]

He should have seen Marten in himself because Susan was sold to another man?

Wrong way the phrase the question. Not what I said. There are similarities in the two relationships that nobody can deny. Marten and Gabrielle, apparently for two years, were sneaking around. Marten was not from Gilead, but there he was. For whatever the reason, Roland and Susan do the same. Roland was not from Mejis, but there he was.

Of course we can find tiny similarities (if we want to) but the differences are much bigger.

[Whitey Appleseed]

Posted this on another thread and I ought to add it here, as well. Roland did see the potential of Marten in himself. On the drop, with Susan, during the blood kiss, “She was, at least for the moment, no longer her own mistress; she might consequently be his. He could do to her what Marten had done to his own mother, if that was his fancy.” W&G, chap vii/section 9/p270. Not that I want to, but it is part of the story, as King wrote it. I don't think it's a tiny similarity, do you?

[Jean]

taking it into consideration that Roland's experience in everything concerning relations between sexes was very limited, and that the memory of Marten and Gabrielle loomed very large in his immature mind, I think it's only natural that their example leaped to his mind at the slightest pretext. I wouldn't attach too much importance to this, or coclude that there really were any similarities.

[jayson]

I agree Jean. Roland was a 14 year old boy who had exactly two memories involving sex, his night with the whore in Gilead and catching his mother and Marten. That conceivably would make for much of Roland's associations of sex with "what Marten did to mother". As much as he could act as an adult in many situations other 14 year old boys couldn't, Roland was in many ways a just another confused teenage boy when it came to sexual things.

[Jean]

That conceivably would make for much of Roland's associations of sex with "what Marten did to mother".
this perfectly resumes what I was trying to say! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Whitey Appleseed]

Yeah, okay, the teenage angle explains why he was unable to forgive his mother. His control over his teenage hormones is an adult response. The text says, “She was, at least for the moment, no longer her own mistress; she might consequently be his. He could do to her what Marten had done to his own mother, if that was his fancy.”

I'm wondering how significant the word "consequently" is in this case? The story continues, "The thought broke his passion apart, turned it to coals that fell in a bright shower, winking out one by one in a dark bewilderment..."

I know you're not saying that what Marten and Gabrielle did is not without significance. What is significant, I think, is the struggle Roland has with love and how that struggle affects his decision later, the Tower, or Susan. Susan thanked him a bit later, for not taking what he could. Given that later on he does take Susan and her him, considering his initial reaction, as well as Susan's initial response, "if you really do love me, don't let me dishonor myself. I've made a promise. Anything might come later, after that promise was fulfilled, I suppose..." is their being together in harmony with the rose?

[Jean]

Hardly anything about young Roland is in harmony with the rose. The question whether or not what he and Susan did was 100% kosher, and the question whether or not there is any analogy to Marten&Gabrielle story, are, I believe, different.

[Whitey Appleseed]

Meaning not on this thread, or something, huh? I don't see how they are different, considering the text provided. Susan didn't want Roland to cause her to dishonor herself, much as Gabrielle dishonored herself by following her desire for Marten. Given the text provided by King, that "Anything might come later, after that promise was fulfilled, I suppose..." Susan's words, I'll hazard again that Roland does hold some responsibility for her death in the end.

No matter, I'll still sleep at night, with the question unsettled. As Roland said to Jake, "Yet here we are, and ka stands to one side and laughs."

[Jean]

There are no two things, or lines or events, between which similarities couldn't be found. Likewise, we could say, for example, that what Blaine does to Lud only echoes what Roland did to Tull, or that Walter dies like Eddie (both believing to have won, and underestimating the adversary). Similarities are heuristically helpful unless they are absolutized and obscure the differences, or else they might distort the essense.

[Whitey Appleseed]

Yeah, you betcha! Couldn't have said it better myself! Theorizing diaspora, adjudicating hybridity.

[jayson]

Please clarify Whitey. I'm not sure I see either one of those in Jean's contention. :orely:

[Whitey Appleseed]

Please clarify Whitey. I'm not sure I see either one of those in Jean's contention. :orely:

I'm still trying to figure out what either one of us said...give me time.:panic:

[Brice]

:beat:

[Jean]

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am a foreigner, and sometimes it is easier for me to use a long word than to look for short ones; please tell me which of them caused difficulty, I'll try to replace it.

I'll try to put it in other words now: to understand a thing better, you can compare it with another - known - thing; in this way, both finding similarity and finding differences is very helpful for deeper understanding. Depending solely on similarity or solely on difference may, however, make the phenomenon or event in question lose some essential features, which will obscure the understanding, not facilitate it.

Actually, it was only theorizing around the two quite concrete examples I gave:


There are no two things, or lines or events, between which similarities couldn't be found. Likewise, we could say, for example, that what Blaine does to Lud only echoes what Roland did to Tull, or that Walter dies like Eddie (both believing to have won, and underestimating the adversary).

[alinda]

:lol: I am so in love with this conversation, I'm finding the on line dictionary very useful
presently, thank you for the opportunity to increase my vocabulary. :P

[Whitey Appleseed]

You gotta remember, Jean, I'm a carpenter and shifting from hammer and nails to ideas takes time. I think I get what you're saying now. Sorta like, yeah, you don't want to install the pink shutters against the purple siding, go with the white, everything goes with the white...wait now, that might work, actually. Bad example.

Anyway, I see nothing that diminishes the tale if Roland/Susan is compared/contrasted/whatever with Marten/Gabrielle. Considering the text given, the dialogue of the characters, how could anyone not see similarities 'tween the two? Your examples could be talked about, as well, and I figured from an earlier post you were telling me to stay on thread...does Roland own some blame for Susan's death...I think that was the thread opener...mind boggled...rubbing furiously at left temple...many other functions...what's that noise that Andy and Blaine make?

As for obscuring the understanding...dunno...said elsewhere that on initial read, Roland seemed like a giant...could do no wrong...and on initial read, I saw no fault with Roland and Susan slip sliding away. Now, I'm second-guessing that thought, questioning it, as well as seeing the Marten/Gabrielle affair as it was...for two years...while on the initial read, perhaps I read those words but thought of it as a one-time deal.

[Kes]

Not to lose the current thread of the conversation, but to answer the original question...

I don't think you can hold Roland "responsible" for Susan's death...where there things he could have done/not done that might have changed the outcome? Well, perhaps. Perhaps not, Ka being what it is...

You could suggest that Susan was equally responsible for her own death. She was told to go West to Gilead and didn't. She chose to remain and free Roland and company. Had she left them to their own devices and found her way to Stephen Deschain it might be Roland's son we would be reading about.

I think that Roland certainly takes on the responsibility for Susan, after the outcome. And I think the reason he does is that he realizes that he WOULD have risked her to gain the Tower and that once he realized what his quest was, no woman or child could have kept him from it. And knowing that he was everything to her, while she was but a part of who he was creates him in the feeling of responsibility. But to say that his direct actions anymore than anyone else's caused her death...well, I can't go there.


As to the Roland/Susan and Marten/Gabrielle connection, the problem is that we don't know enough about Marten and Gabrielle and what their connection was...Was it a love match? Or was it a powerful man manipulating a lonely woman? Did Marten dishonor Gabrielle or did she dishonor herself? Is cuckholding someone, having an affair with a married woman the same as wooing a young girl away from becoming the mistress of a married man when the whole price of the bargain still hasn't been met?

There is some sort of a hint in DT7 where we are treated to a vision in one of the rooms where Roland most certainly connects sex and his mother quite clearly and to his absolute terror. Does this show some connection in Roland's mind between Susan and Gabrielle, as has been suggested?

[AIMB]

ooooh! I was the 19th vote for Ka!

Anyways I think it was just something that happened because of small (and not so small) choices made by a number of people. That's what was so sad about it, if one person had just done one thing different.

[pathoftheturtle]

Ha ha i'm cool with blaming KaHow can you blame something that's so untouchable?:orely:Well, then, maybe we should come right out and ask about Gan.
...It all had to happen to start off the quest to the tower.If that is true, could we say that the Tower knew it?

This is a real horror story if Gan planned everything. :|

[Letti]

This is a real horror story if Gan planned everything. :|

For me it sounds like a bad comedy.

[Jean]

bears are inclined to feel the same

[pathoftheturtle]

A real horror story or a bad comedy... either way, it's Stephen King.

[Jean]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif
petitio principii?!
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif

[candy]

Ha ha i'm cool with blaming KaHow can you blame something that's so untouchable?:orely:Well, then, maybe we should come right out and ask about Gan.
...It all had to happen to start off the quest to the tower.If that is true, could we say that the Tower knew it?

This is a real horror story if Gan planned everything. :|

and this is a surprise to you? don't you find that god/gan/ the turtle has a sick sense of humour and / or fair play when you see whats going on in the world?

I blame Ka and i believe it was fate that led to susan's death, i also partly blame roland as he lost sight of his fathers face (his mission) and he failed to protect the people around him, if he had done the job that was set or even taken his head out of his arse for one moment he may well have saved susan, but i don't think that was ever meant to happen - Ka.

i do blame the townsfolk but not as much, if you have ever read the papers you all know how easy it is to get caught up in a witch hunt.

as for cordelia/rhea yes they instigated this, but i also feel that if they hadn't something else would have done and susan would still have died. ka

[pathoftheturtle]

Thank you, candy; that's close to what was trying to say. I do not find, ultimately, that God is sick, but it is no surprise to me when people do feel that way. I see what's going on in this world.

More interesting to me at the moment, however, is that while you do not feel that Roland or any of the other characters are excusable, you believe in ka.

Jean, you know what my basic position really is, if you'd like to get formal.

[Jean]

sure, but since you know what mine is, you will understand that I couldn't help making a little cheap jab http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[candy]

yes, i am a little confusing aren't i - sorry.
while i do believe in ka, i also believe the people can control it to a certain extent, i believe that susan was meant to die to enable roland to discover his journey to the dark tower, however i beleive that her means of death could have been altered. i was so very angry at roland for loosing sight of those around him when they needed him most.

if he had kept his wits about him susan may well have died knowing that roland truely loved her, as it was i felt that she died feeling that he had left her, roland also felt that he had let her die. if he had done more to save her he would have felt it easier to move on. but then again, it all comes back to Ka, because he would then not be the roland that we all know and love, and he may not have become so single minded in his obsession with the tower.

yep, i am certainly contrary:dance:

[Munchausen]

There's a right terrible amount of back-reading hyar and I'ma gonna do it after I git this hyar post over with, do ya. I guess the easy answer is to blame ka but thet thar is a soft option. Ka may put things in our way but I don't think that it precludes free will. Cord an' Rhea may have both been dealt some sorry cards but that don't give them license to be utter harpies. Cord and Susan were dealt the same hands and became different people. So I have no problem blaming them. Cord got her in to the situation and Rhea fired up the townsfolk. Iffin I were ta blame summun else, t'wouldn't be Roland. It'd be thet "Good" Feller. He's the one thet got everbuddy all stirred up inna first place.

[pathoftheturtle]

Yar, candy, those thoughts are rather disorganized, but life is very mysterious, after all. I think that you are partly right, and I believe that that is better than building a consistent structure mostly out of wishful thinking.

Lest you think that I am deliberately withholding, my opinion of what ka means is really very simple: Que sera, sera.


... if one person had just done one thing different.:orely: Is this any way to run a railroad?

[candy]

:huglove:thank you for not just laughing
I do have very dis-organisd thoughts about most things

[pixiedark76]

I think that it was everyone from above. Cordelia and Rhea (mostly Rhea) had the idea in the first place. Cordelia got the townspeople involved and the towns people let it happen.
Sadly, I blame Roland most of all. He only cared about the battle and did not protect Susan enough. Then, when he knew she was in danger, he did not go back for her.:cry:
How could he do such a thing, she was carrying his child!

[Jean]

and I believe that that is better than building a consistent structure mostly out of wishful thinking.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/good.gif

[Sickrose]

I think Aunt Cord and Rhea. Aunt Cord shouldn't have let Susan be the mayor's gilly because this set off the chain of events. It caused so much hatred and friction between them which Rhea capitalised on.

I guess Roland, maybe, to some extent, but if he had gone back for her Farson's men would have won and Roland and his friends would be killed as would Susan I guess.

It's a tragic chain of events and the death of the mayor caused so much unrest in Mejis that the people reverted to the old ways of superstition. The people of Mejis were open to Rhea's suggestions.

[daemon]

Well I think that responsible for Susan's death is Stephen King.

Ok now to be honest, I believe that everyone mentioned in the poll has an amount of responsibility (except ka). But me also I blame Roland for the death of the girl.He overestimated his power and his abilities.

[SynysterSaint]

Cordelia and Rhea were the sole people to be blamed for Susannah's death. Roland thought that she was back in hiding and safe. There was no way he could have known that she would have been burned; it was only when he looked into the glass that he saw it. And tell me: judging by Roland's reaction and his feelings about her the rest of the book, do you really believe he wouldn't have saved her if he could? I agree that the citizens of Mejis helped in Susannah's murder, but they were mislead. They believed they were getting rid of someone who threatened all of their lives, they had no idea what was really going on. Because of that, I feel that they should be guilty and have to atone for the murder but not held responsible.

[SynysterSaint]

But me also I blame Roland for the death of the girl.He overestimated his power and his abilities.

He didn't overestimate anything. If it weren't for Cordelia going to Rhea, his plan would have worked flawlessly. He admitted later that the only mistake he made was not killing (Rhea, Cordelia?) on sight. I can't remember which one it was, but either death would have saved Susannah's life.

[Brainslinger]

He admitted later that the only mistake he made was not killing (Rhea, Cordelia?) on sight. I can't remember which one it was, but either death would have saved Susannah's life.

It would have been Rhea. I don't think he didn't considered killing Cordelia. I think he just saw her as an irritant, not really an enemy at all. Even at the end, when he described her fate he seemed more pitying than condemning even stating that he didn't regard her as evil. I might try to find the exact quote later.

I agree that he didn't overestimate his powers and abilities. It's arguable he did make a mistake, by peering into the grapefruit when he could have ridden straight for Susan after their showdown with the Coffin Hunters but that's not the same thing. And of course the grapefruit played it's part too in showing him the vision of the Tower and only showing him other events when it was too late.

Mind you it was that first vision of the Tower which helped spark his interest in finding the Tower too, which led to all the events we've read. So ka has it's place there too.

[SynysterSaint]

Mind you it was that first vision of the Tower which helped spark his interest in finding the Tower too, which led to all the events we've read. So ka has it's place there too.

I agree with you one-hundred percent, Brainslinger. I believe that Roland did make a very large mistake when he decided to look into the grapefruit instead of riding straight to Susan. But, let's be honest, he would not have made it there in time to save her. If anything, it would have been worse because, I believe, he would have ended up killing everyone out of rage.

Granted, I believe it would have helped Roland at the time, but it would have haunted him worse than seeing her die in person, hearing her last words to him, and then him murdering hundreds of people who are essentially innocent of a crime- they were tricked into believing Susan was evil and were simply trying to protect themselves. He can barely live with the memories of Mejis as is; imagine if he had all that extra weight on his conscious! He already blames himself for Susan's death. Anything more would just be unbearable.

Although it was a moral mistake on Roland's part, it is by no means a mistake in regards to his, and the rest of the town's, well-being.

And yes, I agree with you that this was Ka's fault. However, blaming Ka for what had to be done to get Roland involved in his quest for the Tower is ludicrous. Ka is not a person: it's a force. Susannah doesn't blame gravity for her being struck by the train, she blames Jack Mort for giving her fate over to gravity. It's essentially the same circumstance: Rhea and Cordelia pushed Roland into Ka's mercy, and just like gravity, Ka is unbending to emotions. It does what it does and that's all that can be said.

[Savvy]

How could he do such a thing, she was carrying his child!

She didn't tell him she was pregnant, or did I miss read?

[SynysterSaint]

She didn't tell him she was pregnant, or did I miss read?

As far as I know, Roland found out after-the-fact.

[Savvy]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

[Letti]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

The glass - the grapefruit - let him know to make him suffer more.


Granted, I believe it would have helped Roland at the time, but it would have haunted him worse than seeing her die in person, hearing her last words to him.

I don't agree. I think the glass made it as hard and horrible for him as possible. Seeing it in person or in the glass.. it don't think it makes any difference. Don't forget that the glass was deeply evil with great power.


and then him murdering hundreds of people who are essentially innocent of a crime- they were tricked into believing Susan was evil and were simply trying to protect themselves.

Innocent? I find them everything but innocent. I don't say they were evil people who wanted to kill a young innocent girl but they believed what they believed because they wanted to believe in it. They wanted to blame someone for all their sadness and mistakes and they did.

[Savvy]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

The glass - the grapefruit - let him know to make him suffer more.

Just re-read and it did make him suffer more but I still don't see how it could have shown him she was pregnant thats all, and after he had finished telling, nothing was mentioned about a baby. He blamed himself for killing Susan but not his unborn child.

[Letti]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

The glass - the grapefruit - let him know to make him suffer more.

Just re-read and it did make him suffer more but I still don't see how it could have shown him she was pregnant thats all, and after he had finished telling, nothing was mentioned about a baby. He blamed himself for killing Susan but not his unborn child.

It didn't show.. it whispered or I don't know how to describe it. I read it quite a long time ago so I might be wrong.

[Savvy]

I like to think he didn't know anyway

[SynysterSaint]

Innocent? I find them everything but innocent. I don't say they were evil people who wanted to kill a young innocent girl but they believed what they believed because they wanted to believe in it. They wanted to blame someone for all their sadness and mistakes and they did.

The problem here is that you're judging their society's values based on ours. In our world, murder is seen as wrong. The death penalty is being abolished and we're trying to find more humane ways of dealing with criminals. In Mejis, however, that's not the case. In their society, setting someone to a public execution is completely understandable assuming that they've done something, such as treachery as Susan had been accused, to deserve it. The citizens of Mejis, for whatever reason, believed that Susan was trying to bring an end to their world and death to all of its citizens. In the terms of their society and their knowledge at the time, I believe their actions against Susan were justifiable, even if I don't agree with it.

[Letti]

Innocent? I find them everything but innocent. I don't say they were evil people who wanted to kill a young innocent girl but they believed what they believed because they wanted to believe in it. They wanted to blame someone for all their sadness and mistakes and they did.

The problem here is that you're judging their society's values based on ours. In our world, murder is seen as wrong. The death penalty is being abolished and we're trying to find more humane ways of dealing with criminals. In Mejis, however, that's not the case. In their society, setting someone to a public execution is completely understandable assuming that they've done something, such as treachery as Susan had been accused, to deserve it. The citizens of Mejis, for whatever reason, believed that Susan was trying to bring an end to their world and death to all of its citizens. In the terms of their society and their knowledge at the time, I believe their actions against Susan were justifiable, even if I don't agree with it.

They believed the strangers who looked like people who would sell their own mother for two bucks. That's why I judge them.

[SynysterSaint]

They believed the strangers who looked like people who would sell their own mother for two bucks. That's why I judge them.

I'm not saying you can't judge them; far from it! I think they were all horrid people. But on the same point you can't blame them because you think they're bad people. It's the same in this society: you can't convict someone as being guilty because they don't live up to a standard you set for yourself. The truth of the matter is: the citizens of Mejis had every right to execute Susan, even though their reasons were wrong.

What "strangers" are you referring to, by the way?

[Letti]

They believed the strangers who looked like people who would sell their own mother for two bucks. That's why I judge them.

I'm not saying you can't judge them; far from it! I think they were all horrid people. But on the same point you can't blame them because you think they're bad people. It's the same in this society: you can't convict someone as being guilty because they don't live up to a standard you set for yourself. The truth of the matter is: the citizens of Mejis had every right to execute Susan, even though their reasons were wrong.

What "strangers" are you referring to, by the way?

You misunderstand me. I judge them and I blame them but I do not think that they are bad people. Not at all. They are people who are at the edge of a falling, moving world. They are lost in their soul. But it doesn't make them less guilty.
They are just people.

I mean the coffin hunters. I know some folks from Mejis helped them but still the coffin hunters and mostly Jonas was the one who started to plant and build up the lies.

[SynysterSaint]

You misunderstand me. I judge them and I blame them but I do not think that they are bad people. Not at all. They are people who are at the edge of a falling, moving world. They are lost in their soul. But it doesn't make them less guilty.
They are just people.

I mean the coffin hunters. I know some folks from Mejis helped them but still the coffin hunters and mostly Jonas was the one who started to plant and build up the lies.

But why do you think they are guilty? As far as they knew, they were doing what was necessary. They had no idea they were tricked. If you were in a position where it was either kill someone else or allow the deaths of yourself and everyone you love, what would you do?

And the Big Coffin Hunters were anything but strangers. They were in the town before Roland and his Tet. What it came down to were the words of Cordelia, Rhea, and the Big Coffin Hunters against Roland, his Tet, and Susan. Point is, the side that was telling the truth happened to be less credible in the town.

[Letti]

You misunderstand me. I judge them and I blame them but I do not think that they are bad people. Not at all. They are people who are at the edge of a falling, moving world. They are lost in their soul. But it doesn't make them less guilty.
They are just people.

I mean the coffin hunters. I know some folks from Mejis helped them but still the coffin hunters and mostly Jonas was the one who started to plant and build up the lies.

1. But why do you think they are guilty? As far as they knew, they were doing what was necessary. They had no idea they were tricked. If you were in a position where it was either kill someone else or allow the deaths of yourself and everyone you love, what would you do?

2. And the Big Coffin Hunters were anything but strangers. They were in the town before Roland and his Tet. What it came down to were the words of Cordelia, Rhea, and the Big Coffin Hunters against Roland, his Tet, and Susan. Point is, the side that was telling the truth happened to be less credible in the town.

1. Usually people do what they think is necessary. Most of the sinners do what they do because they think/feel/believe it's necessary.
Most of the murderers aren't hobby killers. They kill because of some reason. It can be a good one or a weak one but who has the right to judge it?

2. Yep, they had arrived before Roland's ka-tet did but it doesn't make any difference. They weren't part of the folken. They were neither part of Mejis nor its culture nor its history. They were travellers, strangers who came to Mejis from far far away Gan knows from where the blue hell.

(Don't think I am trying to convince you I just write down my opinion and feelings.)