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Letti
01-08-2008, 06:23 AM
One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there?

ETA: This thread is now an amalgamation of all the other existing loop threads - it's your place to discuss anything and everything pertaining to the loop.

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 06:47 AM
We've just been discussing this in another thread :D Here's what I posted:

Why the desert? Well, thats the point at which he realises he can attain the Tower, its no longer a dream, it becomes a reality. Therefore all decisions from that point on, he tries to justify in the Towers name, which is why I'd imagine the Tower has an "issue" with it

Wuducynn
01-08-2008, 06:48 AM
Very good question. I'll mull it over with Lisa's wonderful feedback there...

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 06:50 AM
And a backrub sir?

Wuducynn
01-08-2008, 06:50 AM
Yes, with some of that cat oil...

jayson
01-08-2008, 07:01 AM
I too wonder why the desert, particularly for those who feel the loop is some kind of "do-over" that Roland has to get "right" before he is released from the cycle. As far as that goes, I think Lisa's answer is as good as any.

For me, not necessarily believing that the loops are the same every time, I think there are two reasons of "why the desert." (1) I think the only thing that is the same is Walter and the desert is where he found Walter's trail, and (2) with the cyclical ending, King wanted to bring things back to the literal beginning of the series.

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 07:04 AM
Yes, the non mythological real world reason, I agree, would probably very much be that King wanted to complete the circle...or wheel do ya kennit ;)

Odetta
01-08-2008, 07:25 AM
Maybe I'm just really basic here, but I thought it was because that is where WE are first introduced to Roland.

Maybe it's not all about HIS journey. Maybe it's about ours.

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 07:27 AM
Yeah, thats what I meant in that post right above yours ;)
But in terms of "why?" as far as Roland would see it, I think theres other answers.

jayson
01-08-2008, 07:28 AM
Maybe it's not all about HIS journey. Maybe it's about ours.

That is exactly what I meant, though you put it much more elegantly I did.

Letti
01-08-2008, 08:36 AM
We've just been discussing this in another thread :D
That's where the idea came from.. ;)
I keep on thinking of it.

TerribleT
01-08-2008, 10:45 AM
I too wonder why the desert, particularly for those who feel the loop is some kind of "do-over" that Roland has to get "right" before he is released from the cycle.

I DESPISE that idea, it brings to mind the movie Groundhog Day (which I love) and to me that debases the series to the point where it's cheap and tawdry.

jayson
01-08-2008, 10:50 AM
I DESPISE that idea, it brings to mind the movie Groundhog Day (which I love) and to me that debases the series to the point where it's cheap and tawdry.

Agreed again T. To me anyway Roland has more to save then just himself, as opposed to Bill Murray who had only to achieve his own enlightenment. I too love that film, though as a religious studies major I had to watch it for several classes and wrote at least one lengthy paper on it so it became kind of academic for me. I did give my professor a new way of looking at the title though that he has continues to use in his subsequent lectures [in short, Bill Murray needed to become self-less, in other words, to not see his own shadow]. For Roland, I feel there is more to it than that [not to mention I still don't think Roland is selfish].

TerribleT
01-08-2008, 10:59 AM
[not to mention I still don't think Roland is selfish].

Exactly, I see Roland's quest for the tower as an inherently selfless act, in the finest tradition of The Line of Eld, and Gunslingers. He never forgets the face of Steven Deschain, and there's a certain nobility about him which is at once barbaric, and civilized. I've always seen Roland, and gunslingers, for that matter, as knights of the highest order, of the finest character, training and courage. I do not think Roland pursues the tower because he wants to see it, although that's a bonus. I think he pursues the tower because he feels as though it's his obligation and duty. I think he would cry off of the tower in an instant if he felt he had some higher obligation which was less appealing to him.

Jean
01-08-2008, 11:47 AM
I DESPISE that idea, it brings to mind the movie Groundhog Day (which I love) and to me that debases the series to the point where it's cheap and tawdry.
if there had never been such a movie, would you feel the same?

TerribleT
01-08-2008, 01:18 PM
I DESPISE that idea, it brings to mind the movie Groundhog Day (which I love) and to me that debases the series to the point where it's cheap and tawdry.
if there had never been such a movie, would you feel the same?

Good point.

TerribleT
01-08-2008, 07:16 PM
This passage is right after they've left River Crossing from Susannah's perspective....

Now she understood that Roland had been much more than a cop riding a Daliesque range at the end of the world. He had been a diplomat; a mediator; pehaps even a teacher. Most of all he had been a soldier of what these people called "the White," by which she guessed they meant the civilizing forces that kept people from killing each other to allow some sort of progress. In his time he had been more wandering knight-errant than bounty hunter. And in many ways this still was his time; the people at River Crossing had certainly thought so. Why else would they have knelt in the dust to receive his blessing.

Roland says to Jake...

"Right is what this is all about," Roland said. "But if you look too long at the small rights (like saving little boys from falling.), Jake-the ones that lie close at hand-it's easy to lose sight of the big ones that stand further off. Things are out of joint-going wrong and getting worse. We see it all around us, but the answers are still ahead. While we were helping the twenty or thirty people left in River Crossing, (or saving little boys from falling) twenty or thirty thousand more might be suffering or dying somewhere else. And if these is any place in the universe where these things can be set right, it the Dark Tower."

I still don't buy off on the concept that somehow Roland will be redeemed by not dropping Jake.

Matt, is it ok if I double post the in the Roland's choice thread? I think it's as relevant there as it is here.

Jean
01-09-2008, 02:40 AM
anticipating Matt's answer, I take upon myself the responsibility to say it is perfectly ok. In certain situations it may be better to post the same things in different threads than providing a link to what already is posted (for example, if you expect discussions to develop in separate threads along different lines). http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

LadyHitchhiker
01-12-2008, 08:27 PM
I just assumed that it started at the desert to truly epitomize the long dry future he will have, and it will begin and end until he can figure out how to break the cycle. Would we as readers have been more moved if he had begun at a lush forest? *I* think not.. but that's just an idea of mine that may change.

Letti
01-13-2008, 12:12 AM
And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
(We know the loops change.)

Mattrick
01-13-2008, 01:10 AM
Agreed again T. To me anyway Roland has more to save then just himself, as opposed to Bill Murray who had only to achieve his own enlightenment. I too love that film, though as a religious studies major I had to watch it for several classes and wrote at least one lengthy paper on it so it became kind of academic for me. I did give my professor a new way of looking at the title though that he has continues to use in his subsequent lectures [in short, Bill Murray needed to become self-less, in other words, to not see his own shadow]. For Roland, I feel there is more to it than that [not to mention I still don't think Roland is selfish].

I think Roland is definitely selfish. his 'loop' is purposely designed to have scenario similar to Mejis and, we'll find out if maybe, Jericho Hill. All the same he lets Jake fall. He chose the tower over Jake, who is the catalyst for the story. Whether it is for duty or obligation or simply because, over all else, he needs to see it and touch it and go to the room at the top. He still lets Jake drop. All obstacles set before Roland are interconnected tests.


As for the desert, it's a logical place to begin. It's desolate, no life, it's dry and Roland is alone. The tower is in a field full of roses (roses are hard to grow) and it's the end the complete opposite of a desert. Due to heat it and exhaustion and dehydration it wouldn't be uncommon to feel a moment of vertigo and have a slight hallucination. It's the kind of thing that would be forgotten about after taking a sip of water from a waterskin and continuing on. Brown is his first encounter, where he recalls David, his hawk, the first of many sacrifices to come. I'm still not beyond Brown being Flagg or Fannin due to him also being at the waystation with Callahan while Roland was leaving with Jake.

In terms of the loops, well we all know Eddie is in reverence to Cuthbert and Jake is to Allain well the name Susannah is symbolic as well. Wasn't Susan pregnant with Roland's child before she burned? Well, Mordred is Roland/Susannah/Crimson King so it's as if the baby he never got to father is suddenly there. That's why I think the back story is so important. Of course, I Haven't read Gunslinger Born yet but my friend just bought them all in a Hardcover book.

Darkthoughts
01-13-2008, 05:01 AM
Try and get the comics if you can Mattrick, the hardcover doesn't include all the back story segments that were in the single issues.

Mattrick
01-14-2008, 01:27 AM
How significant are the backstories?

jayson
01-14-2008, 04:26 AM
How significant are the backstories?

There supplemental to the story so you don't "need" them, but the are exceptionally cool, and deal with a lot of the metaphysical stuff from the series [such as Gan and Maerlyn rising from the Prim, and the origin of the Wizard's Rainbow, and Arthur Eld stories and such].

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 04:41 AM
Yep, "exceptionally cool" just about covers it :thumbsup:

LadyHitchhiker
01-14-2008, 02:44 PM
And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
(We know the loops change.)
Oh I definitely think that it can change, but it will only change determining on how far he is in his quest.

Letti
01-15-2008, 12:05 AM
And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
(We know the loops change.)
Oh I definitely think that it can change, but it will only change determining on how far he is in his quest.

What do you mean by that? So how can it change?

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 01:11 AM
I too wonder why the desert, particularly for those who feel the loop is some kind of "do-over" that Roland has to get "right" before he is released from the cycle. As far as that goes, I think Lisa's answer is as good as any.

For me, not necessarily believing that the loops are the same every time, I think there are two reasons of "why the desert." (1) I think the only thing that is the same is Walter and the desert is where he found Walter's trail, and (2) with the cyclical ending, King wanted to bring things back to the literal beginning of the series.


Go read my opinion in the "The Tower" thread to see why I don't believe the loop is different each time and see if you could agree with that point of view. :)

Since I truly believe that King intended the loop to be the same everytime, there must be a specific reason as to why Roland resets there every time. Personally, I think it's because it signifies the beginning of Roland's "redemption" (hence the subtitle, unless I'm totally wrong about that, which is more than likely possible.), in other woprds, the point in which Roland will begin to make very key desicions in his journy; decisions that will effect the overall outcome of the quest; will he let Jake fall? Will he treat his tet members with more respect than the Tower? Will he learn to value the right thins in life? These are all decisions he makes after the desert, so that is my guess as to why he starts there. I realize there are decisions he made wrong before that moment, as well, but obviousely Gan has changed those choices this tiem around, I mean, Roland has the horn now, right?

Mattrick
01-15-2008, 01:54 AM
i don't think the cycle is changed, he's just more aware and prepared. I think everything King describes him having at the beginning are parts of himself of his history that he'd earned back. That is why at the end of the first loop he was given the horn of the eld because he learned enough Gan awarded it with him. Ka wold make no sense if the loop changed. Roland only understand Ka and destiny because, subconciously, way deep down in his soul he knows he's done it all before but I think he denies it to himself, doesn't even acknowledge that little voice, just so he can see the tower again. Roland just doesn't know he can ignore Ka. When the tower falls, the breakers destroy it, he is free. He will never reach the tower with anyone or anything except his guns.

Now as for his ka-tet? I believe they always change but always play the same role. Instead of Eddie it will be Timothy and he'll be hooked on meth instead of heroin etc. I think the ending with his Ka-tet in New York together, happy, is their reward for helping Roland get one step closer to redemption.

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 02:14 AM
i don't think the cycle is changed, he's just more aware and prepared. I think everything King describes him having at the beginning are parts of himself of his history that he'd earned back. That is why at the end of the first loop he was given the horn of the eld because he learned enough Gan awarded it with him. Ka wold make no sense if the loop changed. Roland only understand Ka and destiny because, subconciously, way deep down in his soul he knows he's done it all before but I think he denies it to himself, doesn't even acknowledge that little voice, just so he can see the tower again. Roland just doesn't know he can ignore Ka. When the tower falls, the breakers destroy it, he is free. He will never reach the tower with anyone or anything except his guns.

Now as for his ka-tet? I believe they always change but always play the same role. Instead of Eddie it will be Timothy and he'll be hooked on meth instead of heroin etc. I think the ending with his Ka-tet in New York together, happy, is their reward for helping Roland get one step closer to redemption.

Once again, I dissagree. You just said the loop didn't change, but then said that ka-tet is different each time. I don't see where that makes any sense, maybe to can go into greater detail about it so I can understand what you are saying better?

King himself said that he thinks Roland will eventually reach the ultimate top of the Tower for real, but you seem to not believe that. This doesn't make sense to me, since the whole reason why Roland is looping is because he hasn't fully learned his lesson yet. If he is never meant to reach the top of the wTower, then what is his destiny ultimately? To remain trapped in the loop for eternity? I refuse to believe that. Maybe because I'm too optomistic about things, but I just don't think that is Roland's destiny.

As for the alternate tet thing: I personally believe that it is always the same mebers, because they ultimately end up in the same place. The way I look at it, the ka-tet only went through the journey once, but Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.

That's just my opinion, though. I would really like to hear more detail on your theory, as it is the most original one I have heard in awhile.

Darkthoughts
01-15-2008, 04:04 AM
I don't think the Tet changes either because I agree with this;

Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.
The rest of the ka-tet will not experience that moment of realisation and repetition that Roland does, because its the loop itself has been taken out of the normal passage of time, so that it may repeat until Roland gets it right.
Each it time it plays out is also the first time it plays out - but each time Roland is momentarily taken out of the loop at the end into real time to allow him to comprehend his fate and then inserted back at the start of the loop. Cruel!

But I think Dud-a-Chum?, that it is correct to describe the loops as different because even a minute change makes a difference. As you also agreed, Roland had made progression to be awarded the horn, obviously meaning that the loop we read about in the series had in some way changed from the previous loop (ie, Roland's awareness of his mistakes.) The portion of time itself may be the same, but the events that occur within the time frame can be subject to change, actually, they have to be subject to change or there would be no point to Roland's lesson.

Matt
01-15-2008, 08:40 AM
Each it time it plays out is also the first time it plays out -

I totally agree with that.

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 10:50 AM
I don't think the Tet changes either because I agree with this;

Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.
The rest of the ka-tet will not experience that moment of realisation and repetition that Roland does, because its the loop itself has been taken out of the normal passage of time, so that it may repeat until Roland gets it right.
Each it time it plays out is also the first time it plays out - but each time Roland is momentarily taken out of the loop at the end into real time to allow him to comprehend his fate and then inserted back at the start of the loop. Cruel!

But I think Dud-a-Chum?, that it is correct to describe the loops as different because even a minute change makes a difference. As you also agreed, Roland had made progression to be awarded the horn, obviously meaning that the loop we read about in the series had in some way changed from the previous loop (ie, Roland's awareness of his mistakes.) The portion of time itself may be the same, but the events that occur within the time frame can be subject to change, actually, they have to be subject to change or there would be no point to Roland's lesson.

No, no, I agree with you. I was simply stating that the loop as whole is the same loop, not that the outcome couldn't be slightly altered everytinme based on specific things Roland does. All I'm saying is that as a whole, the loop is the same, because Roland is the only one who loops, so the ka-tet, location and circumstances in general will be the same everytime, however, how Roland reacts to those circumstances may alter the outcome slightly, but it doesn't mean that it is completely different everytime. I mean, personally, I think when the loops first started happening, Roland probably didn't succeed everytime, but it didn't matter, because Gan isn't gonna let him die, so what happens if Roland dies or loses all of his ka-tet too early (Like I am sure it happened a few times)? Well, he starts right back at the desert again, unaware, lol. At least that's how I've always looked at it.

Think of it this way: Some circumstances along the way may not always arise at the same exact time or place depending on how the ka-tet gets to that point each time, but Ka will nonetheless see them happen at one point or another. Why? Same reason I believe the tet is the same every time, because if the loop were even slightly altered, Roland would make completely different mistakes this time around, therefore not learning from the mistakes he made in the last loop, see what I'm saying? I think Ka makes it so that Roland experiences more or less the same thing each time, provided some small differences here and there.

Basically, I am saying that I agree with you 100% on this, and am glad to find someone else on here who feels as strongly about this point of view as I do, 8).

Darkthoughts
01-15-2008, 02:17 PM
:D I was going to write at the end of that post "or do you mean the same as I've just written anyway?" but didn't...I had a feeling we were agreeing. :thumbsup:

I don't know about you, but when I'm thinking and replying about this stuff my mind starts going off on tangents whilst I'm typing - like something will click and I'll be like "Aha, so that also means...!" which is all good in the long run, but doesn't always make for coherent posts :lol:

Mattrick
01-15-2008, 05:54 PM
Once again, I dissagree. You just said the loop didn't change, but then said that ka-tet is different each time. I don't see where that makes any sense, maybe to can go into greater detail about it so I can understand what you are saying better?

The loop doesn't need to change, but his ka-tet can be different.


King himself said that he thinks Roland will eventually reach the ultimate top of the Tower for real, but you seem to not believe that. This doesn't make sense to me, since the whole reason why Roland is looping is because he hasn't fully learned his lesson yet. If he is never meant to reach the top of the wTower, then what is his destiny ultimately? To remain trapped in the loop for eternity? I refuse to believe that. Maybe because I'm too optomistic about things, but I just don't think that is Roland's destiny.

I'm not sure how you got this? I'm saying he attained the horn because he learned a lesson. Next time he goes through perhaps he'll get something to remind him he can change. What I meant was Roland always knows he's in this loop, in his soul to be corny. That is how he seems to know everything because he's experienced it before. He wants to get to the top of the tower so bad because mayhap next time he goes through that door he won't end up back in the desert. Does he conciously know this? No, he doesn't. I think if he knows the tower falls his chance at redemption fades as well.


As for the alternate tet thing: I personally believe that it is always the same mebers, because they ultimately end up in the same place. The way I look at it, the ka-tet only went through the journey once, but Roland is experiencing that same journey over and over again, not with different players, but with the same ones, because he is the only one stuck in the loop.

I think Roland has a new and all the same kat-et minus name/appearance each time. He needs people to help him, to be sacrificed, to teach Roland a lesson. In return, they are given a happy life together without memory of Roland and Mid-world. Notice how their name's were all Toren which we learn means 'Tower'. The tower gave them that life and that name.

Think about it. Jake hated his parents and his life. Oddeta was full of issues and was generally miserable and Eddie was a stone cold junkie with a lot of bad memories. They are all rewarded for the life they have all yearned for. Roland, can't seem to get his part done.

Darkthoughts
01-16-2008, 02:43 AM
I think Roland has a new and all the same kat-et minus name/appearance each time.
But if this were the case then Eddie, Suze and Jake would not be saved and redeemed from their old lives.
Because, if you're saying he picks a different ka-tet each time, the previous ka-tet will still be existing in the loop as they were before Roland drew them because the loop is repeating in the same time frame every time.
Eddie, Suze and Jake aren't aware of the repetition because they never leave the loop.

Odetta
01-16-2008, 08:01 AM
I think each time Roland loops, he is given the same choices to make. Whether or not there's a change in the loop would depend on the choice he would make. Now, some choices, such as choosing to save the beam, get to the Tower, I can't ever imagine him choosing differently... but there are other smaller choices that Roland may choose differently thus, altering the loop.

That being said, how MUCH the story would change... I dunno

Darkthoughts
01-16-2008, 08:29 AM
I agree with all of that O. Well, you are The Messiah, its hard not to!

Odetta
01-16-2008, 12:35 PM
that's right! Or prepare to be smitten!


(I'm an angry Messiah) ;)

Matt
01-16-2008, 12:39 PM
Omnipotent should be one of our moods :lol:

Dud-a-chum?
01-17-2008, 01:26 AM
I'm being agreed with . . .I think! I'm a happy man today!

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs23/f/2008/016/f/f/God_Put_A_Smile_Upon_My_Face_by_Shoes742.jpg

Jean
01-17-2008, 01:30 AM
Omnipotent should be one of our moods :lol:

don't we already have "bearish"?

Matt
01-17-2008, 05:23 AM
:lol:

Good point

To The Dark Tower Came
01-22-2008, 07:00 AM
Hello gang,

Having just finished book 7 I'll jump in with my own perspective. I agree with Odetta here. Since I am a Buddhist I saw the ending through those terms. At the heart of the matter comes attachment. For Roland, that attachment is the Tower. He has spent so long and so much in finding it, and dreamed so long of climbing to the top of it, that little else matters.

It's hard for us to see this, because in our story, that SK presents to us, Roland has changed to a great degree. In my opinion, the whole key to it lies within those few pages when Roland is sucked through the last door and into the desert once again. He hears the voices of his mother, and teachers, and other loved ones. What they say give the whole thing away.

Roland has taken on the Tower as an obsession, but more so that that. He has moved beyond obsession into justification. Meaning, that while he is absorbed by the Tower, and his need to get to it, he justifies it to himself and to others by masking it with "duty", "promises", "the White".

The latter is the worst of them all. Roland is presented, and it's said without much of an imagination, nor sense of humor. Roland takes his defender of the White to an extreme. He thinks that that Tower is the White. While this is true in a literal sense, it misses the mark. The White is also love, friendship, community, sharing...in other words, all the values and traits that make humans humans. Because Roland thinks without imagination, or the ability to stretch his mind to the figurative, he is lost to a symbol.

His attachment is what roots him to a cycle. By chasing the Tower at the expense of what makes humans and all of society worth while, he chases stone and a god half believed in. So, I believe that the Tower we see in the book is indeed Roland's Tower. One that Roland himself has made. One that would be different if any of us entered into it, because Roland cannot see his mother, trapped by her faults, his father - duty, and many others.

The whole book, Wolves, is showing Roland that ending are possible, even when the road has been long. Calla Bryn Sturgis is a picture for Roland to see. But the attachment to the Tower pushes out everything but duty, and mission. He fails to see the love and the community all around him many times in the series. At least in his heart.

When he is sent back to the desert, we not only complete the wheel, do ya kennit, but we also are shown that the Tower (or Gan) has something worthwhile for Roland. That he is as close to enlightenment as he's ever been. Seeing the world for what it is, still filled with love and community, that he needs to return again and try it all over.

There would be no sense in sending Roland back farther as he was his own man yet. Roland was a Gunslinger in service to Gilead and busy defending it. While caught up in a war, he had to make decisions in those parameters of war. But chasing Walter, he is free to go this way or that, at least in theory. He could, at any time have gone from his course, and simply lived life until the end. We all die, we all break down, we all become dust. The desert I think represents Roland in the beginning. Empty, just going on, step after step, dry; devoid of anything except his obsession.

Letti
01-22-2008, 09:04 AM
The desert is like a harsh symbol that Roland cannot understand... I like it.

jayson
01-22-2008, 09:25 AM
To the Dark Tower Came, I may not agree word for word with all of your theories, but they are VERY interesting and VERY well thought out. I'm glad you chose to share them with us.

To The Dark Tower Came
01-22-2008, 09:53 AM
I say thankee, sais.

Agreement isn't a requirement. Wouldn't be much of a board if that was the case. :thumbsup:

Letti
01-22-2008, 09:55 AM
Well said folks.

jayson
01-22-2008, 09:56 AM
I say thankee, sais.

Agreement isn't a requirement. Wouldn't be much of a board if that was the case. :thumbsup:

Absolutely. The more difference we have the more interesting it becomes. I think the ambiguous ending was a major gift from Sai King bc it provokes just this type of conversation.

LadyHitchhiker
01-22-2008, 10:02 PM
And do you think it's possible he doesn't always have to start in the desert or it's a law?
(We know the loops change.)
Oh I definitely think that it can change, but it will only change determining on how far he is in his quest.

I think perhaps that the further along in his quest he becomes, the shorter his loop will be, until finally, he gets it right, and then he will end up where he's supposed to.

Letti
01-24-2008, 07:59 AM
Spoilers all around!!!

Spoilers all around!!!

Spoilers all around!!!


Let's imagine that Roland is standing at the Dark Tower. He has no idea what's waiting for him at the top of it. He thinks back of the long long past... the lost friends... the cheated lovers... the dirty bloody roads
If at that moment Roland could turn back time - what would he done in another way or what wouldn't he done at all? What are the things he would like to change? Are there anything at all he really minds?
Would he not drop Jake?
Would he run to save Susan's life?
Would he kill Rhea at the first glance?
Or he wouldn't change anything because he is there at last at the Tower and that's the most important.
What do you see in his soul and mind through your own soul and mind?
- Palaver -

TerribleT
01-24-2008, 08:04 AM
I can't see Roland changing anything. He's way too pragmatic for that.

ManOfWesternesse
01-24-2008, 08:19 AM
God, that's a tough one Letti! :wub:
(& I'm leaving work in a few minutes) :lol:
I'll have to give it som ethought.

Of course, the Roland who arrives at the Tower (on this or any Loop ?) probably would not know to change anything? He has arrived at the Tower & he's gonna go in!

So maybe the question is what we think he should have changed?
Hmmmm...

Letti
01-24-2008, 08:28 AM
Of course he will go in but if he could jump a little in time... would he try to change about anything and go back very quickly?
For example not dropping Jake at the first time...
Of course it would change his fate and future but would he take the risk?
I might be way too optimistic but I think if he could... he wouldn't let Jake drop. Or... I don't know... let me think...

obscurejude
01-24-2008, 09:36 AM
I think Roland's end justifies all the means. What I'm trying to say is that Roland would have never reached the Tower if all of those events hadn't transpired. That's what makes Roland who he is and consequently the Tower as well. I appreciate the question Letti, but I can't answer it apart from this significant aspect of the tale.

Letti
01-24-2008, 10:07 AM
I understand your point but I can't agree, obscurejude.
I don't think there is only one way Roland can reach the Tower. There are many choices that can lead him to reach or not to reach.
I might be absolutely alone with these feelinsg but I don't there are only some things Roland would change if he could even if he had to take some risk.
I think he wouldn't drop Jake
and he would kill Rhea at their first meeting.
But for example I don't think he would save Susan.

obscurejude
01-24-2008, 12:22 PM
Letti,

If Roland hadn't dropped Jake, he would have never discovered Walter's twin, Jack Mort. Also, they may have never discovered the rose. And Susannah would have never fulfilled the prophecy of Mordred (not sure I really care about that one but its a big part of the plot). I am not saying that Roland doesn't feel regret, but he is part of a much bigger picture- a purple blade of grass amongst an infinitude of galaxies. Not all of this was Roland's volition, we can't leave out Ka as much as we may want to. (see my signature)

obscurejude
01-24-2008, 12:23 PM
Dropping Jake was a brutal part of his damned existence. (I think Matt might agree with this).

Letti
01-24-2008, 12:25 PM
I know I know but I still say that he could have found the Tower even if he hadn't let Jake fall. The way I see it it's absolutely possible.

obscurejude
01-24-2008, 12:34 PM
I'm also fairly confident that Roland has no regrets. It was a quote that R of G had in his signature for a while, about Roland's advice that one must die satisfied even if that means sacrificing personal happiness. Roland was sworn. Period. I don't think he would label any of those things as "mistakes." As much as Roland hated dropping Jake, he still wandered several times throughout the subsequent novels about whether he would do it again. Also, Jake leaves the Pere to be killed by vampires, understanding that it was Roland's wish and that ultimately duty is more important than anything. A brutal lesson to be sure, but one that I think Jake understood in some part as a result of being dropped.

How is it absolutely possible Letti? Maybe you can convert me.

jayson
01-24-2008, 12:35 PM
while i am still not sure i can explain why, i still feel that dropping jake was a necessity in the creation of the three doors on the beach. roland made some sort of deal with the oracle, a quid pro quo, the sacrifice for the ability to draw his three. it was a brutal decision, but one i will always see as necessary.

TerribleT
01-24-2008, 12:48 PM
Jayson, we have an ally!!!!!! jude, welcome to Roland's defense team!!!!

:rofl:


Jayson, he wouldn't even know of his ability to draw without the palaver with the MIB. The oracle, and I pasted the direct quote in another thread, says that he must either sacrifice Jake, or cry off the Tower

obscurejude
01-24-2008, 12:53 PM
Jayson, we have an ally!!!!!! jude, welcome to Roland's defense team!!!!

:rofl:


Jayson, he wouldn't even know of his ability to draw without the palaver with the MIB. The oracle, and I pasted the direct quote in another thread, says that he must either sacrifice Jake, or cry off the Tower

Thanks TerribleT!:rock: I see that hand, is there another? I say gawdbomb!

TerribleT
01-24-2008, 12:56 PM
YES!!!! Jayson/R of G

Míchéal
01-24-2008, 01:10 PM
i think this is gonna get a bit rough...

jayson
01-24-2008, 01:14 PM
yes indeed T, obscurejude makes a great addition to the Roland Deschain Defense Fund.

She-Oy
01-24-2008, 01:39 PM
If he could turn back time, he would probably pass on the mayo!

jayson
01-24-2008, 01:41 PM
If he could turn back time, he would probably pass on the mayo!

:lol: i love that scene!

LadyHitchhiker
01-29-2008, 12:44 AM
All I can think of when I see this thread title is of Cher singing it...

"If Roland could turn back time..
if he could find some way
He'd take back all the worlds that I saved for him
and he'd say...."

ManOfWesternesse
01-29-2008, 01:05 AM
Of course he will go in but if he could jump a little in time... would he try to change about anything and go back very quickly?...
Ah OK , gotcha!

Then my answer is Yes. I believe Roland wit the knowlege of what really happens in the Tower would go back.
I believe he would not drop Jake. He only dropped him the first time because he believed he would not attain the Palaver with Walter unless he did so. The Roland who survived that Palaver would not make the same decision imho.
& yes, it would change at least some of what happened after, but that would not stop him attaining the Tower - it would just change his course somewhat. (obscurejude - I'm not sure I get the reference to Mort, what specifically would it ultimately matter had Roland not met Mort?).

Letti - I believe it might well be that he would also save Susan. (Certainly I would not see him make a deliberate choice not to save her - given the possibility of doing it.) He might well then forsake her to quest for the Tower (as he had decided to do in Mejis) but I believe he would have saved her first.

And yes, given the choice he would definitely have forgone the mayonaise!

Letti
01-29-2008, 05:48 AM
Of course he will go in but if he could jump a little in time... would he try to change about anything and go back very quickly?...
Ah OK , gotcha!

Then my answer is Yes. I believe Roland wit the knowlege of what really happens in the Tower would go back.
I believe he would not drop Jake. He only dropped him the first time because he believed he would not attain the Palaver with Walter unless he did so. The Roland who survived that Palaver would not make the same decision imho.
& yes, it would change at least some of what happened after, but that would not stop him attaining the Tower - it would just change his course somewhat. (obscurejude - I'm not sure I get the reference to Mort, what specifically would it ultimately matter had Roland not met Mort?).

Letti - I believe it might well be that he would also save Susan. (Certainly I would not see him make a deliberate choice not to save her - given the possibility of doing it.) He might well then forsake her to quest for the Tower (as he had decided to do in Mejis) but I believe he would have saved her first.

And yes, given the choice he would definitely have forgone the mayonaise!
Thank you, Brian. Now I am not alone with it. Yeah, I totally agree about Jake... but about Susan... yeah, I guess you must be right... but I will think about it.

ManOfWesternesse
01-29-2008, 05:53 AM
..but about Susan... yeah, I guess you must be right... but I will think about it.
Oh, there's no 'must' about it! :lol: It's just my own thought.

MonteGss
01-29-2008, 08:15 AM
I think that once Roland actually sees the Tower, there is nothing else on his mind. Ever. Roland certainly does grow during the saga but the moment that the Tower is in his sights, he is absolutely compelled to finish it out and nothing like regret or second chances is on his mind.

Ka-tet
02-24-2008, 04:44 AM
Its just a little somthing ive been thinking on, ive talked to mark8888 about. It seemed a little strange to me that roland didnt really express his suprise when he opened the door and saw the desert again. I mean we all assume that Roland cant remember that hes in a loop, so does anyone think he picked up on it this time, maby now that he pickled up on it he can finaly end his journey?

Your thoughts my friends.

fernandito
02-24-2008, 04:47 AM
There are countless other threads that discuss the ending.

Letti
02-24-2008, 04:48 AM
What he felt was so surprise but something much stronger... realisation. Shocking realisation.

Ka-tet
02-24-2008, 04:59 AM
Could be....

Mark
02-24-2008, 09:26 AM
Well, he'd been having Dja v all the way up the tower, i think the Tower reminds him when he reaches the top and sees the desert.

sarah
02-24-2008, 09:36 AM
I think he is slowly getting his memory back all the way up the Tower and when he goes through the last door he knows his fate....again.




Personally, I think this thread can stay open for a bit before it is merged with other threads discussing this topic. ~maerlyn

Letti
02-25-2008, 12:01 AM
Anyway I think it's very hard to surprise Roland.
I don't remember he was surprised anywhere in the series...

Ka-tet
02-25-2008, 06:21 AM
Thats true enough Letti *thinks hard* ill have to get back to you on that one.

Storyslinger
02-25-2008, 09:23 AM
I think he is slowly getting his memory back all the way up the Tower and when he goes through the last door he knows his fate....again.




Personally, I think this thread can stay open for a bit before it is merged with other threads discussing this topic. ~maerlyn

Exactly, couldn't have said it better.

Matt
02-25-2008, 12:31 PM
I agree, he begins to realize at the top what is going to happen to him and STILL can't cry off. I wasn't just the Tower right? It had to be the top and I believe he began to understand near the end of his climb

MonteGss
02-25-2008, 02:21 PM
There are countless other threads that discuss the ending.

What he said.

Matt
02-27-2008, 12:49 PM
Okay, so we know its a loop. But why is the Tower doing this to Roland?

Are we to assume that the time in the series is the first time through and if so--why must it return him to the beginning.

Did that "shimmer" happen the first time he went through the desert? After Tull?

So my question would be what about the first time through, what did Roland do to make the Tower suck him into this weird damnation?

Storyslinger
02-27-2008, 12:50 PM
I'm going with what Others have said, that until Roland finds his soul, (not letting Jake drop, the horn) and show care, he's doomed.

jayson
02-27-2008, 12:57 PM
it's a question i've thought about, is the loop we read the first? i think we haven't enough evidence to say one way or the other with any surety. i still don't think he is being punished with the loops, but i'm always interested in the theories of those who think he is...

Matt
02-27-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure it is, he was always disoriented at the beginning as far as I know.

I bet King thought of the loop from the very beginning--I am just not sure if that moment of disorientation was written into the version before it was revised.

aurora
02-27-2008, 02:57 PM
My question I have been wondering is why was leaving the Horn with Cuthbert a bad thing, other then He should have taken it with him as hire to the line of Eld and 'believed' he should take it with him on his quest for the Dark Tower? I take this as love and compassion for Cuthbert.

Matt
02-27-2008, 03:01 PM
I'm not sure aurora--maybe it simply signifies that he took one second to think of something other than the Tower when he picked it up.

I bet we are going to find out in the next comic arc that Roland was literally itching to get on his journey to The Dark Tower at Jericho Hill.

jayson
02-27-2008, 03:06 PM
I'm not sure aurora--maybe it simply signifies that he took one second to think of something other than the Tower when he picked it up.

I bet we are going to find out in the next comic arc that Roland was literally itching to get on his journey to The Dark Tower at Jericho Hill.

He spent that second thinking about his dead best friend rather than pick up the Horn. He'd take the Horn bc he knows he needs it for the Tower, so by NOT picking up the horn he stops obsessing on the Tower for a second and that moment is to mourn 'Bert. Is that what you mean Matt or the opposite of what you meant bc I can't tell?

ManOfWesternesse
02-27-2008, 03:10 PM
I don't think the one we read about is the first Loop..... probably not even close to being the first.
Walter told Roland (Palaver) that he keeps on doing the same thing. Then Roland -when he realises whats happening for that split second at the top of the Tower- is horrified at what is about to happen again.
I believe he's been round the Loop a good few times before the one we read about.

Matt
02-27-2008, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure aurora--maybe it simply signifies that he took one second to think of something other than the Tower when he picked it up.

I bet we are going to find out in the next comic arc that Roland was literally itching to get on his journey to The Dark Tower at Jericho Hill.

He spent that second thinking about his dead best friend rather than pick up the Horn. He'd take the Horn bc he knows he needs it for the Tower, so by NOT picking up the horn he stops obsessing on the Tower for a second and that moment is to mourn 'Bert. Is that what you mean Matt or the opposite of what you meant bc I can't tell?

I meant he took a second and thought about something other than the Tower (horn of Eld, duty, the White...whatever you like) and that might be the beginning of him thinking of something other than that for this loop.

Can only be good for him.

And I agree Brian, totally

jayson
02-27-2008, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure aurora--maybe it simply signifies that he took one second to think of something other than the Tower when he picked it up.

I bet we are going to find out in the next comic arc that Roland was literally itching to get on his journey to The Dark Tower at Jericho Hill.

so you're take is that Roland forgot to pick up the Horn bc he was in such a hurry to resume his quest? I always take it as Roland was so out-of-it after watching his best friend die that he didn't think to take the thing he needs for his quest from his friend's dead hand. funny how one event can be seen so differently. that's why i said before that NOT taking the Horn is a moment where Roland didn't think of the Tower at all. i don't know, maybe you agree with me and i just can't read today.

Matt
02-27-2008, 03:18 PM
Well first off, I don't think Roland needs the horn for the tower in any way accept that it signifies his ability to think of something other than that.

I do not believe it is a talisman or anything like that.

So not getting it or getting it wouldn't help with the Tower imo. The reason I say it might be important for the next loop is because it shows that Roland cares for something other than his quest. He cares for that horn because it matters to him--it is the Horn of Eld and should not be left in the dust.

That is something other than Tower obsession and may be the beginning of his salvation.

jayson
02-27-2008, 03:19 PM
ok, so a third option altogether different from the two i suggested. cool. :thumbsup:

fernandito
02-27-2008, 06:28 PM
Okay, so we know its a loop. But why is the Tower doing this to Roland?

...what did Roland do to make the Tower suck him into this weird damnation?

The two questions that elude and haunt me (I believe I asked these same two questions in the dt-ending thread I started).

What did Roland do to deserve this particular fate? I'm sure that every single one of his ancestors had sins to atone for, hell, Arthur Eld even slept with another woman, why didn't the Tower punish him for that? Why is Roland such a special case? Is it because he is the last of his kind and must therefore pay for the unpunished sins of those before him?

WHY? WHY? WHY?

:cry:

Ka-tet
02-28-2008, 04:06 AM
Like many others have already said i belive it has to do with roland finding his soul, obtaining the horn.

blackrose22
02-28-2008, 07:11 AM
I don't think the one we read about is the first Loop..... probably not even close to being the first.
Walter told Roland (Palaver) that he keeps on doing the same thing. Then Roland -when he realises whats happening for that split second at the top of the Tower- is horrified at what is about to happen again.
I believe he's been round the Loop a good few times before the one we read about.

That's a good point but if it was just the first time Roland had reach the Tower he'd still be horrified at having it to do again for the second time. Also if Roland had travelled the loop countless times before he'd have more injuries than just the fingers and toes he lost on the beach (I think anyway). Wouldn't his mind be weight down with the memories of previous loops or is his mind cleared of these memories by the tower so it doesn't overwhelm him at the start of each loop.

Matt
02-28-2008, 07:19 AM
I think a part of him retains the loops in his mind.

And I agree, this would not have been the first time through but I can't wait to listen to the version that is unrevised. Its been a long time since I heard the original.

aurora
02-28-2008, 11:09 AM
No actually I don't even think he 'forgot' to pick up the Horn. I think he left it there intentionally to honor his love for Cuthbert and maybe to a lesser degree the fall of Inner-World (The Baronies.)

I do believe that Roland needs it at the top of the Tower to save himself. To me it represents his ability to reconcile the fact that he can;t control everything. The loss of his friends were in a quest to save the multi-verse in and they sought the same battle their own right and that tragedy must occur and loss of friends is due to their choice and not entirely through Rolands device. I believe Roland traps himself in the loops because he can't escape the sorrow of the loss of his friends while he believes his task is to save the multi-verse which is incomprehensible.

I actually wrote a lot more about my thoughts of this in another thread. But I will agree this is not Rolands first and maybe not 101st trip around the loop. I do believe its up to Roland to escape it and maybe, just maybe he will evolve to that point.

Interestingly his trips through the loop(s) may be to make him evolve to understand what Gan and the Prim really are and only after doing so will be capable of grasping the concept of the infinity of the multi-verse and by thus doing so allows a balance to be forged between the magic of the Prim and the technology of man. Thus being capable of doing what he believes he's doing by overcoming his own personal chaos, loss of loved ones versus saving the incomprehensible multi-verse.

mia/susannah
03-25-2008, 04:44 AM
I am currently rereading The Dark Tower series. We know that at the end of the 7th book, Roland has to repeat his quest. My question is how many times do you think he has repeated his quest for the tower? I would just like some input. Thanks for your interest.

Letti
03-25-2008, 05:04 AM
19

alinda
03-25-2008, 05:09 AM
Thats a good answer Letti, but I would have
said at least once more....

Bev Vincent
03-25-2008, 05:19 AM
Delah

Letti
03-25-2008, 05:22 AM
Delah

This is the only answer I am not able to accept.

mia/susannah
03-25-2008, 05:25 AM
Delah

Forgive me for being stupid, but what does delah mean?:orely:

alinda
03-25-2008, 05:29 AM
many?:unsure:

Ka-tet
03-25-2008, 05:36 AM
Im just gonna throw a thought that came to me right now xD

Im gonna say 18, i think on his 19th time round he will complete his quest...

Wuducynn
03-25-2008, 05:39 AM
Delah

Jean
03-25-2008, 05:44 AM
the theory I adhere to (in my lifetime it was first proposed by Taheen74 at .net, about three years ago) is that the cycle we're reading about is the 19th, and that's why 19 is everywhere; thus, the next will be the 20th (I hope, the last one, too).

Bev Vincent
03-25-2008, 05:51 AM
Delah = many. Roland has been through it many times before and King told me he believes Roland will have to go through it many more times again. Unlike the episode of Kingdom Hospital where one time fixes all, he told me that was TV--in real life, people only improve in small increments.

mia/susannah
03-25-2008, 06:11 AM
Thanks for the input and for explaining delah. I know I should have remebered that. I would say he has done it 19 times as well

Letti
03-25-2008, 06:13 AM
Oh damn I thought delah meant infinite... :doh:

alinda
03-25-2008, 06:16 AM
I've only seen a couple of episodes of Kingdom Hospital.
This has me wanting to see some more tho'. Is this mention
of a particular episode?






Delah = many. Roland has been through it many times before and King told me he believes Roland will have to go through it many more times again. Unlike the episode of Kingdom Hospital where one time fixes all, he told me that was TV--in real life, people only improve in small increments.

Bev Vincent
03-25-2008, 06:59 AM
Yes, there was a later episode about a baseball player who lived in shame because he goofed an easy play that lost the world series for the Red Sox (based on the real-life error by Bill Buckner in 1987). He gets a chance at a do-over.

Storyslinger
03-25-2008, 08:13 AM
19

Hear, Hear!

mia/susannah
03-25-2008, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the input everyone. It has been along time since I read the series and now that I have started rereading it, alot of things are coming back to me.

Wuducynn
03-25-2008, 03:41 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. It has been along time since I read the series and now that I have started rereading it, alot of things are coming back to me.

Is this your first re-read?

Erin
03-25-2008, 04:02 PM
While I really like the idea of the series being Roland's 19th loop, for some reason, I still feel like it is many many more than that. No particular passage or part backs me up, I just feel like he's been at it for a long, long time.

Wuducynn
03-25-2008, 04:20 PM
While I really like the idea of the series being Roland's 19th loop, for some reason, I still feel like it is many many more than that. No particular passage or part backs me up, I just feel like he's been at it for a long, long time.

I feel the same. Its just a gut feeling. Delah.

asamorris
03-25-2008, 04:43 PM
While I really like the idea of the series being Roland's 19th loop, for some reason, I still feel like it is many many more than that. No particular passage or part backs me up, I just feel like he's been at it for a long, long time.

i agree. especially when the katet get to the calla, and they talk about how gilead fell 1000 years ago.

but, then again, does walter make roland sleep for 6 hundred years each time they palaver? if so, that "1000" years thing only works once and then a little. twice if you cut it down to the original 500. idk.

in surrender, i say 19. OR, let me fuck things up and say 99. if 99 is not total delah, idk what is.

mia/susannah
03-25-2008, 05:06 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. It has been along time since I read the series and now that I have started rereading it, alot of things are coming back to me.

Is this your first re-read?

Yes, sadly it is. It actually took me finally getting away and getting a divorce from my ex-husband for me to be able to collect these books. He was a very abusive and controlling asshole and did not want me to enjoy anything that did not revolve around him.

Unfound One
03-25-2008, 05:12 PM
Yeah, I'm with Ka-Tet up there - this was his 18th and now that he has the horn he can finally complete his quest for the 19th and final time.
*knocks on wood*

Letti
03-25-2008, 10:41 PM
While I really like the idea of the series being Roland's 19th loop, for some reason, I still feel like it is many many more than that. No particular passage or part backs me up, I just feel like he's been at it for a long, long time.

I see your point but we mustn't forget that Roland was incredibly old when he reached the Tower. I mean he wasn't about 50. He had a damn long life anyway. And from such a long (and painful) life 19 sounds a lot to me. Almost endless.

nusik
03-26-2008, 05:39 AM
19 is too few IMHO. 99 is what feels right to me. This appeared on a message board in amazon.com, anyway:

the quest in the books is the 99th and the next quest is the final, it is recounted in Robert Browning's poem. King's is a type of prequel.

this is just a theory i found interesting.

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 05:40 AM
19 is too few IMHO. 99 is what feels right to me. This appeared on a message board in amazon.com, anyway:

the quest in the books is the 99th and the next quest is the final, it is recounted in Robert Browning's poem. King's is a type of prequel.

this is just a theory i found interesting.

Hmmmmm that is interesting theory Nusik. Thanks for sharing it. :harrier:

Bev Vincent
03-26-2008, 01:51 PM
King is very definite on this point: the next iteration is not the last, and not even close to the last.

Matt
03-26-2008, 01:54 PM
Which makes total sense because it would take more than one more time to redemption imo.

Change is a very slow process IRL

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 01:56 PM
King is very definite on this point: the next iteration is not the last, and not even close to the last.


But now he's got the Horn of Eld so there is definite progression for him.

MonteGss
03-26-2008, 02:00 PM
Progression isn't redemption though.... it's just a start. :)

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 02:02 PM
Did I say it was?

MonteGss
03-26-2008, 02:04 PM
Calm down. I was just pointing it out. :)

Having the Horn is wicked cool but people do make too big a deal over it. :)

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 02:09 PM
I'm calm. I'll let you know when I'm not. Having the Horn of Eld IS a big deal because it shows that there is a possibility for the loop ending and that he isn't damned for eternity.

MonteGss
03-26-2008, 02:12 PM
I'm calm. I'll let you know when I'm not. Having the Horn of Eld IS a big deal because it shows that there is a possibility for the loop ending and that he isn't damned for eternity.

Oh, I agree with you. But I don't believe having the horn means he will end his quest next time. The horn is just a symbol of change, not a symbol of redemption and finality.

Anyway, this is off topic though and there are other threads in which to discuss the horn.

As far as how many times Roland has looped, I guess I can dig the 19th time that people have said but really, I have no idea. It could be his 119th time for all I know. :)

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 02:14 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I've ever given two shits about staying on topic...anyway I find the 99 idea to be kind of interesting...thats sure as shit delah loops..

MonteGss
03-26-2008, 02:14 PM
I like the 99 times idea too. Or maybe 1999th time? Hmmm.

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 02:16 PM
Who knows? Maybe his next time will be his last, because he'll fail and finally get eaten by Mordred or exploded out of his boots on the Red Fields of None? :cool:

Letti
03-26-2008, 02:20 PM
Or maybe it was the first... :P *runs out of the room*

ManOfWesternesse
03-26-2008, 02:34 PM
King is very definite on this point: the next iteration is not the last, and not even close to the last.
I'm not being funny here - but would King nessecarily know?
I like to think the next may be the last - or at least damn close to it.


Or maybe it was the first... :P *runs out of the room*

:lol: Well, the text at the end of DT7 tends to make that unlikely, i think?

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 02:36 PM
I'm not being funny here - but would King nessecarily know?


Besides the fact that he is the author?




Or maybe it was the first... :P *runs out of the room*

:lol: Well, the text at the end of DT7 tends to make that unlikely, i think?

That was cute, but hes right.

MonteGss
03-26-2008, 03:52 PM
For me, there is nothing in the text that makes me believe the next time is his last.

Yes, I'd have to agree...it could not have been his first time.

blackrose22
03-26-2008, 04:58 PM
Somewhere between 19 and 99 maybe. It's a hard question to answer considering how determined Roland is on reaching the Tower and what mistakes he makes on each loop. He may learn some lessons on the next loop but only to go and make more as well. Condemning him to repeat the loops until hes get it right one time.

Stinga of A-Town
03-26-2008, 09:13 PM
So if this trip up the Tower earns Roland the horn of Eld, what has he earned/lost the previous (how ever many, 19, 99, 1999, delah) trips up the Tower?
And on that note, - how many times must I read / listen to the series to hear the altered tale where he grabs the horn on Jerico Hill?
I'm gonna guess 19 just because.

Jean
03-26-2008, 10:15 PM
For me personally, if the next time wasn't the last, the whole story would be substantially cheapened, especially the Horn's role in it. From a symbol of redemption if will turn into another artefact of those a computer game character gathers to get to another level. Luckily, nothing in the novel (or nothing I have been able to notice so far) points out that that might be the case.

Stinga of A-Town
03-27-2008, 07:17 AM
The way I have seen it- The Tower saga as a whole is the absolute anti-love story.
The entire journey(s) is Ka's way of beating a very stubborn Roland over the head with the message that love should be more important than anything, something he should have realized when he lost Susan, or Cuthbert, or Alain ect... A message that Roland never seems to get, and thus is doomed to try again and again. Hence why he restarts alone in the desert, instead of mayhap Gilead before his trial. This journey up the tower seems to show a very slight progress, (even though he still has lost everyone and everything to the tower.) and is rewarded with the horn of Eld.

"Ok, a little better this time- here's your horn. Try again, but this time lets not let everyone you care for die horribly huh?"
Just a theroy-
It could be that because he dared to find the tower, this is Ka's way of punishing him for all eternity.
Mayhap all the worlds are destined for discordia, and Rolands constant questing is fighting Ka.
Roland - the anti Ka?
Mayhap?

wildfire1290
05-01-2008, 05:12 PM
Going along with what Jean had said, about this being their 19th time through dude to there being the number 19 everywhere, but what if they 19 meant that Roland had 10 more times to do the quest over until he finially earned his rest?

mia/susannah
05-01-2008, 06:12 PM
All good answers. If Roland has to repeat his quest, does that mean he has to draw in different people to be part of his new ka-tet? And if so, why?

wildfire1290
05-01-2008, 07:06 PM
It's all up in the air at this point. The items he collects could be the same, they people that give it to him however, could be totally different.

Letti
05-02-2008, 03:50 AM
The way I have seen it- The Tower saga as a whole is the absolute anti-love story.

Anti-love story? It's full of love. I mean if it's hard for someone to love it means his story becomes an anty-love story? Anyway it's not just about Roland, it's about his whole ka-tet.
Moreover for my part I am proud of Roland because he can love more and more by the time being.
So we see this story very differently - it's absolutely okay of course but it surprised me.

wildfire1290
05-02-2008, 01:13 PM
The way I have seen it- The Tower saga as a whole is the absolute anti-love story.
The entire journey(s) is Ka's way of beating a very stubborn Roland over the head with the message that love should be more important than anything, something he should have realized when he lost Susan, or Cuthbert, or Alain ect... A message that Roland never seems to get, and thus is doomed to try again and again. Hence why he restarts alone in the desert, instead of mayhap Gilead before his trial. This journey up the tower seems to show a very slight progress, (even though he still has lost everyone and everything to the tower.) and is rewarded with the horn of Eld.

"Ok, a little better this time- here's your horn. Try again, but this time lets not let everyone you care for die horribly huh?"
Just a theroy-
It could be that because he dared to find the tower, this is Ka's way of punishing him for all eternity.
Mayhap all the worlds are destined for discordia, and Rolands constant questing is fighting Ka.
Roland - the anti Ka?
Mayhap?

Excluding Roland and his some what failed love attempts, what about the love that Eddie shared for Susannah and Jake? They were basically a family.

Brainslinger
05-08-2008, 03:38 AM
I'm not being funny here - but would King nessecarily know?

Besides the fact that he is the author?


Thing is though, until he writes it down that doesn't mean he is right. Think of the introductions and notes he's put in previous book where he described where he thought things were going, which turned out not to happen.

It's definitely interesting to get his point of view though and in this case I agree. The horn suggests there will be an end, but he's still got a way to go.



Or maybe it was the first... :P *runs out of the room*

:lol: Well, the text at the end of DT7 tends to make that unlikely, i think?

True. Also the text at the start of revised version of The Gunslinger where Roland feels a strange thinness, almost as if he is at the Tower indicating that this is when he returns from a previous loop, i.e. this isn't his first.

As for whether or not Roland draws the same people, personally I think he does. I seem to remember a passage where Roland speaks something along the lines "Nothing but death can break Ka-tet" and that "Cort thought that not even that would break it." This makes sense when you consider the loop.

True, The Dark Tower suggests otherwise what with the Ka-Shume (or whatever it's called, the sense of breaking of a Ka-tet), and the way the surviving members seemed to drifted apart after the death of the other members, as if they were companions but no longer ka-tet. However this can be explained simply as a break down in their original connection, and as we know Susannah had dreams of (an) Eddie and Jake even then leading to their (re)uniting. In other words, theirs a loose connection, but it can be re-tightened (to borrow an electrical analogy.)

Power Surge
05-08-2008, 07:22 PM
Has Walter really been in the Dark Tower? I remember him saying that he has. And in the first book Roland said that he's not a lier.

SpektR
05-08-2008, 07:28 PM
Thanks for that spoiler. You da man.

Wuducynn
05-08-2008, 07:33 PM
Power Surge you have to be careful when making a thread about what you put as your title. SpektR I wouldn't worry about it, its not that much of a spoiler, if one at all.

Erin
05-08-2008, 07:37 PM
I edited the title of the thread a bit and added the spoiler icon. Power surge, just let me know if you'd rather me change the title to something else. :)

Welcome to the site! Happy posting!

Power Surge
05-08-2008, 07:50 PM
How can this be a spoiler? It never actually stated in the books so what exactly would I be spoiling?

SpektR
05-08-2008, 08:03 PM
The fact that walter comes back. And says hes been to the tower and says that the top room is empty, leading me to the conclusion Roland doesnt make it to the tower or he would know wether walter was lying or not.

Wuducynn
05-08-2008, 08:07 PM
Like I said SpektR, don't worry about it. Really. There is so much more to it. You're on The Wastelands right? Tip of the ice berg practically.

Power Surge
05-08-2008, 09:03 PM
There - I changed it. I don't care about rooms - I only posted that to remind you when and to whom Walter confessed about his alleged trip.

Letti
05-08-2008, 09:46 PM
I am sure Walter has never been in the Tower. Anyway Roland is wrong quite often so it doesn't mean anything that he says Water never lies. If you ask me he lies with pleasure. he said it to stop Roland.
(Is there any more information about it in the comics?)

Power Surge
05-08-2008, 09:52 PM
But it seems like Walter possessed the knowledge about the loop and that information could only have been obtained in the tower. That's probably what he told Nort and what drove the villagers crazy.

Letti
05-08-2008, 09:55 PM
But the Tower is not like a museum... you can't go in and out like a costumer whenever you want. Can you imagine that Walter entered the Tower he climed it he saw the door at the top and realised everything: "Wow, so Roland is making the same loops. What a loser! Hahaha!" - he climed down and he went to do his business.
Or how so?

Power Surge
05-09-2008, 02:07 AM
Well, to be able to tell Nort about the loops Walter would have to know and thus visit the Dark Tower before the loop begins. I'm guessing Nort was to give Roland an escape close - it all could've ended there and then if The Gunslinger simply asked the weed-eater. The only logical conclusion I can see is that Walter is somehow involved or even the reason for the loop.

Letti
05-09-2008, 02:12 AM
Where does Walter speak about the loops to Nort? Is it in the revised Gunslinger?
Still even if Walter had entered the Dark Tower I don't see why he would know about the loops.

ManOfWesternesse
05-09-2008, 03:00 AM
Where does Walter speak about the loops to Nort? Is it in the revised Gunslinger?...
Same question PowerSurge.
You sure you're not reaching very far on an assumption here?

ladysai
05-09-2008, 04:34 AM
I thought Walter told Pere Callahan about the top of the tower, when they met at the way station.
I dont remember him telling anything to Nort about the tower or the loops.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 05:40 AM
I thought Walter told Pere Callahan about the top of the tower, when they met at the way station.
I dont remember him telling anything to Nort about the tower or the loops.

He didn't. It was to Callahan he said something like "I know the room at the top of the Tower is empty".

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 06:48 AM
I thought that was an interesting idea, Walter knowing about the loop. If it is Roland's nineteenth loop and that's the significance behind "going nineteen" then it would make sense why the word drove Nort insane. After all, the word contained the secrets of death according to Walter.

None of this is definitive, but I had never thought of it before.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 06:51 AM
I think Walter knows about Roland's loop, not the specifics or even the why's. To me the "19" had nothing to do with the number of loops, just with the date of King's possible death and with his death the likely death of the Dark Tower.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 06:53 AM
Back on the topic of the thread. No, Walter hasn't been to the top of the Dark Tower. He just has a strong (albeit false) belief that the room at the top is empty.

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 06:54 AM
It wasn't definitive, I just really like the idea. I'm going to think about it some more. I have a few things to say, but I want them to be clear.

jayson
05-09-2008, 06:54 AM
I think Walter knows about Roland's loop, not the specifics or even the why's. To me the "19" had nothing to do with the number of loops, just with the date of King's possible death and with his death the likely death of the Dark Tower.

I agree Matthew, especially with the thoughts on the 19 part of what you said.

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 06:55 AM
Back on the topic of the thread. No, Walter hasn't been to the top of the Dark Tower. He just has a strong (albeit false) belief that the room at the top is empty.

If you think he knows about the loop, then how is that compatible with his assumption that the room is empty?

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 06:57 AM
Back on the topic of the thread. No, Walter hasn't been to the top of the Dark Tower. He just has a strong (albeit false) belief that the room at the top is empty.

If you think he knows about the loop, then how is that compatible with his assumption that the room is empty?

How is his knowledge of the loop incompatible with the belief that the room at the top of the Tower is empty?

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 06:59 AM
I guess you qualified your statement to an extent by saying that Walter didn't know the specifics, but I was thinking that being aware of time itself repeating would necessitate a belief in a Gan or god that was alive and ticking.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 07:04 AM
but I was thinking that being aware of time itself repeating would necessitate a belief in a Gan or god that was alive and ticking.

Not necessarily. .we just know that he believes the room at the top of the Tower is empty and that he wants to climb to the top, and that he is caught in the powers of the King, the Tower and ka.

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 07:07 AM
Not necessarily, how?

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 07:08 AM
Not necessarily that him believing the top of the room is empty means that he has to have some specific belief about anything.

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 07:10 AM
How could it be empty, if something is restarting time?

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 07:13 AM
Maybe the room at the top isn't necessarily "the control center" for lack of a better phrase. Maybe he believes the Tower itself is the control center.

obscurejude
05-09-2008, 07:27 AM
If that's the case, then why lay emphasis on the "top" of the tower. Walter is clearly designating something.

LadyHitchhiker
05-09-2008, 07:39 AM
I always assumed that Walter was lying about being to the tower, but that was just my kind of gut reaction about it.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 08:03 AM
I always assumed that Walter was lying about being to the tower, but that was just my kind of gut reaction about it.

Where does he even claim that he's been to the Tower? I don't remember him claiming that.

Letti
05-09-2008, 01:52 PM
He thinks the top of the Tower is empty because that's what he wants to believe. It would be much more comfortable for him because it would mean the worlds are much closer to Discordia and the Chaos.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 02:22 PM
Hmmmmmmm interesting Letti. Thats something to mull over.

Matt
05-09-2008, 02:49 PM
He thinks the top of the Tower is empty because that's what he wants to believe. It would be much more comfortable for him because it would mean the worlds are much closer to Discordia and the Chaos.

I agree with this. Why not tell everyone you meet that its empty to not only cause trouble but it's what you want to believe.

Power Surge
05-09-2008, 04:21 PM
The room WAS empty when Walter arrived in it. We can assume that equipment he discovered there allowed him to shift people between the worlds, create doors, link people into ka-tets and even create the loop. To what end? Was it simply to keep Roland out or something more complex?

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 04:24 PM
The room WAS empty when Walter arrived in it. We can assume that equipment he discovered there allowed him to shift people between the worlds, create doors, link people into ka-tets and even create the loop. To what end? Was it simply to keep Roland out or something more complex?

Please explain where you get the idea he arrived in it (or even reached the Tower in the first place) and for that matter all this other stuff? Thanks.

Power Surge
05-09-2008, 04:33 PM
Please explain where you get the idea he arrived in it (or even reached the Tower in the first place) and for that matter all this other stuff? Thanks.

Walter said to Callahan something like "I've been to the top of the Tower and the top room is empty". Whether this is the truth is the original question of my topic.

ladysai
05-09-2008, 05:15 PM
It's in Wolves...

"No one is above ka, false priest," the man in black spits at him, "and the room at the top of the tower is empty, I know it is."

Doesnt really tell us how Walter may have come by that belief, does it?
I think Letti is right...Walter wants the top of the tower to be empty, so he believes it is so.

To your question, Power Surge, I dont think anything Walter says is true.
(he lied in every word)
:)

jayson
05-09-2008, 05:22 PM
It's in Wolves...

"No one is above ka, false priest," the man in black spits at him, "and the room at the top of the tower is empty, I know it is."

Doesnt really tell us how Walter may have come by that belief, does it?
I think Letti is right...Walter wants the top of the tower to be empty, so he believes it is so.

To your question, Power Surge, I dont think anything Walter says is true.
(he lied in every word)
:)

Thanks for looking it up Ladysai. I agree with you and with Letti that what Walter says reflects what he wants to be true, not what he knows to be true. I see no evidence that Walter has entered the Tower, and moreso, I agree with what Matthew said earlier in the thread that I don't see the room at the top of the Tower to be a control room for the multiverse.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 08:27 PM
Please explain where you get the idea he arrived in it (or even reached the Tower in the first place) and for that matter all this other stuff? Thanks.

Walter said to Callahan something like "I've been to the top of the Tower and the top room is empty". Whether this is the truth is the original question of my topic.

Quote where he said he's been to the top. He has never said it. He has said that the room at the top is empty, but you're getting from that that means he's been to it, when we don't know if that is true.

Wuducynn
05-09-2008, 08:28 PM
It's in Wolves...

"No one is above ka, false priest," the man in black spits at him, "and the room at the top of the tower is empty, I know it is."

Doesnt really tell us how Walter may have come by that belief, does it?
I think Letti is right...Walter wants the top of the tower to be empty, so he believes it is so.

To your question, Power Surge, I dont think anything Walter says is true.
(he lied in every word)
:)

Ladysai, thats not proof that Walter said he's been to the top. He's just stating that its empty.

Power Surge
05-10-2008, 04:25 AM
So if he says "I know it is", how exactly would he know that without visiting the Tower. Or for that matter how would he know there is a room at the top of the Tower without entering it? Is that a common knowledge in Roland's world that the Tower has one important room at its top?

Letti
05-10-2008, 04:32 AM
Most of the people say "I know..." and they don't know anything about that thing they are just simply sure about it. It's quite usual, don't you think?

Brice
05-10-2008, 04:38 AM
Yes, belief is almost universally stated as if it is fact.

ladysai
05-10-2008, 05:38 AM
It's in Wolves...

"No one is above ka, false priest," the man in black spits at him, "and the room at the top of the tower is empty, I know it is."

Doesnt really tell us how Walter may have come by that belief, does it?
I think Letti is right...Walter wants the top of the tower to be empty, so he believes it is so.

To your question, Power Surge, I dont think anything Walter says is true.
(he lied in every word)
:)

Ladysai, thats not proof that Walter said he's been to the top. He's just stating that its empty.

I believe that's what I said.;)

Brice
05-10-2008, 06:25 AM
or he just wants to imply that he knows?

Wuducynn
05-10-2008, 07:43 AM
I believe that's what I said.;)

I was replying to when you posted "Its in Wolves" seemed to imply that you believed that, Walter saying what he did was proof he had been to the top of the Tower. Misunderstanding then.

alinda
05-10-2008, 12:50 PM
Yes, belief is almost universally stated as if it is fact.


Brice belief is fact to the one believing.

ladysai
05-10-2008, 04:45 PM
I believe that's what I said.;)

I was replying to when you posted "Its in Wolves" seemed to imply that you believed that, Walter saying what he did was proof he had been to the top of the Tower. Misunderstanding then.

Not a problem. :)

Power Surge
05-10-2008, 06:13 PM
And the second question in my previous post...

ladysai
05-10-2008, 06:36 PM
The room WAS empty when Walter arrived in it. We can assume that equipment he discovered there allowed him to shift people between the worlds, create doors, link people into ka-tets and even create the loop. To what end? Was it simply to keep Roland out or something more complex?

First, we do not know Walter visited the top of the tower (or even the field of roses the tower stands in). We know Walter believes the top of the tower to be empty, but not the reason why he believes that.
And if the room at the top of the tower was empty and Walter was there, how could he discover any equipment there? Or did you mean equipment at the tower, but at another level than the top?
As far as why Walter would want to shift people, or create doors, etc.; Walter seems to have lived to mess with people. It was like his favorite hobby.
And to mess with Roland was a major part of Walter's personal goals...he wanted Roland out of the game.

razz
05-13-2008, 06:10 AM
he says Water never lies. If you ask me he lies with pleasure

my first thought was, he lied in every word...

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 06:11 AM
Except we learn that, thats not about Walter.

razz
05-13-2008, 06:18 AM
touche

that was about Dandelo wasn't it?
*i say that phrase in the same way i would say "there's a very large monster right behind me, isn't there?"*

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 06:19 AM
yep, or maybe it was about both? That never occured to me until now.

mia/susannah
05-13-2008, 07:32 AM
I don't think Walter was ever in the tower much less at the yop of the tower. I think He said all that just to upset people and create more havoc.

Brice
05-13-2008, 07:36 AM
Yes, belief is almost universally stated as if it is fact.


Brice belief is fact to the one believing.

I believe fact is not quite so subjective.

obscurejude
05-13-2008, 08:40 AM
Except we learn that, thats not about Walter.

I think it is about Walter on a larger scale. Roland, in the poem, still goes in the direction the Hoary Cripple is pointing. Although Roland believes every word to be false, "aquiecsingly" he still takes the direction of the Dark Tower to be fact. The quest for the tower is the quest to make sense of the macabre reality of the world, which the tower is a cosmological symbol of. From the afterwards in the earlier novels, King clearly had Walter and the Hoary Cripple synonymously in his head.

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 08:46 AM
You should have took a look at my spoiler tagged post below that one OJ. As far as symbology goes, I don't believe the Tower is a symbol.

obscurejude
05-13-2008, 08:48 AM
I saw it. I simply expanded upon it. You posed it as a question, I posed it as fact.

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 08:50 AM
I don't see it as a fact, but as a possibility. Its definitely about Dandelo and possibly also about Walter, thats how I see it.

obscurejude
05-13-2008, 08:52 AM
I see it differently, hence:

Why I posted something other than your spoiler

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 08:55 AM
I see it differently, hence:

Why I posted something other than your spoiler


Oh, in that case go fuck yourself, you dirty little slut

:harrier:

obscurejude
05-13-2008, 09:00 AM
CK,

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/thumbnail2/725_gangster_shooting_a_machine_gun.gif

and

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/thumbnail2/1358_fuck_you.gif

wildfire1290
05-13-2008, 01:29 PM
I'm not being funny here - but would King nessecarily know?

Besides the fact that he is the author?


Thing is though, until he writes it down that doesn't mean he is right. Think of the introductions and notes he's put in previous book where he described where he thought things were going, which turned out not to happen.

It's definitely interesting to get his point of view though and in this case I agree. The horn suggests there will be an end, but he's still got a way to go.



Or maybe it was the first... :P *runs out of the room*

:lol: Well, the text at the end of DT7 tends to make that unlikely, i think?

True. Also the text at the start of revised version of The Gunslinger where Roland feels a strange thinness, almost as if he is at the Tower indicating that this is when he returns from a previous loop, i.e. this isn't his first.

As for whether or not Roland draws the same people, personally I think he does. I seem to remember a passage where Roland speaks something along the lines "Nothing but death can break Ka-tet" and that "Cort thought that not even that would break it." This makes sense when you consider the loop.

True, The Dark Tower suggests otherwise what with the Ka-Shume (or whatever it's called, the sense of breaking of a Ka-tet), and the way the surviving members seemed to drifted apart after the death of the other members, as if they were companions but no longer ka-tet. However this can be explained simply as a break down in their original connection, and as we know Susannah had dreams of (an) Eddie and Jake even then leading to their (re)uniting. In other words, theirs a loose connection, but it can be re-tightened (to borrow an electrical analogy.)


I do feel ashamed asking this, but how much extra content was added to the revised version of The Gunslinger? I've only read the series using the original books. Is it for sure worth re-buying the book?

Letti
05-13-2008, 01:31 PM
wildfire1290, if you ask me you needn't buy the revised one, really

jayson
05-13-2008, 01:34 PM
I have to agree with Letti, which is not unusual.
I've never had a problem with the original, and, truth be told, I don't really like some of the revisions. They seem a bit forced to add cohesion which I never really felt was missing.

mia/susannah
05-13-2008, 01:41 PM
I on;y have the revised editions. I should look for the other editions I reckon. But I like the way the discussion has gone. I think if Roland was to take another loop, he would draw in the same people.

obscurejude
05-13-2008, 01:43 PM
I have to agree with Letti, which is not unusual.
I've never had a problem with the original, and, truth be told, I don't really like some of the revisions. They seem a bit forced to add cohesion which I never really felt was missing.

Couldn't agree more, but if you run across it in a used book store, why not?

Power Surge
05-13-2008, 03:34 PM
Why would the Tower be some mystical entity? Why can't the Tower be simply a machine? Everything up until the Tower was a machine of a sort...

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 03:59 PM
I strongly disagree with all of you who prefer the original to the revised. Wildfire not only is the revised a superior overrall book because of the revision, it is meshes better with the saga. Definitely worth picking up. I don't feel anything is forced, but it makes it a maturer, refined book.

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 04:01 PM
Have you finished the series Power Surge?

obscurejude
05-13-2008, 05:50 PM
I don't think it isn't worth a read. I especially loved:

The additions to everything in Tull. Really loved nineteen being brought into the plot.

Power Surge
05-13-2008, 08:21 PM
Yes.

Wuducynn
05-13-2008, 08:33 PM
Okay, then where do you get the idea that the Dark Tower is a machine?

MonteGss
05-13-2008, 09:16 PM
Wildfire, to have a better story, get both of the versions and each time you do a reread of The Dark Tower, start with the original version of DT1 and read them in order and end your reread with the revised DT1. It makes sense that way and I am not entirely convinced that King meant it as a "replacement" book.

MonteGss
05-13-2008, 09:21 PM
Yes, I'm interested to hear your ideas as well.

Letti
05-13-2008, 10:50 PM
And anyway here is a whole thread about this topic (revised or not) with lots of great posts: http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=352

razz
05-14-2008, 04:22 AM
Yes, I'm interested to hear your ideas as well.

especially since the tower existed before the new age of machines
(Allegedly)

after all, what kind of machine would release hordes of demons when someone hits it with a sledgehammer?

unless...
sick joke of a defense mechanism?

MonteGss
05-14-2008, 07:54 AM
That is a great thread! ;)

Brainslinger
05-14-2008, 01:11 PM
Wildfire, to have a better story, get both of the versions and each time you do a reread of The Dark Tower, start with the original version of DT1 and read them in order and end your reread with the revised DT1. It makes sense that way and I am not entirely convinced that King meant it as a "replacement" book.

Do you see the revised as being the next loop after The Dark Tower then?

This isn't the case when you consider it's explicitly mentioned that he doesn't have the horn at the start of The Revised Gunslinger.

I guess the original gunslinger could be set in a previous loop though.

I'm sure that wasn't King's intention, but whatever. If something isn't written down readers can make of it what they will.

daveg344
05-14-2008, 01:22 PM
[quote]Yes, I'm interested to hear your ideas as well.


after all, what kind of machine would release hordes of demons when someone hits it with a sledgehammer?




whoa when did this happen? I don't remember anything about this in the DT series. Or was it in another book referencing the DT world?

Wuducynn
05-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Brainslinger, I think Letti posting the link to the thread about the revised Gunslinger was her subtle hint that we're off-topic.

MonteGss
05-14-2008, 01:42 PM
:rolleyes:

alinda
05-14-2008, 01:53 PM
*looks to the top of the page to determine where I am*
Oh yeah, how many times? I think endless , unless he
Roland opens his heart/mind...but really do we think the
tower is stuck in the same cycle too? The beams go on
breaking , fixing, only to break again for Rolands advancement?

alinda
05-14-2008, 02:08 PM
I think Walter is described as being a liar in every word!

obscurejude
05-14-2008, 02:19 PM
I think Walter is described as being a liar in every word!

That's clearly not the idea with their palaver at the end of the Gunslinger. The only good lies are the ones that are partly true. Remember the poem is a dramatic monologue, told only from the speaker's perspective. Childe Roland "thinks" that the cripple lies in every word, but he still follows the path the cripple points in, agreeing that at the end is the Dark Tower.

Matt
05-14-2008, 02:38 PM
I think the beams are only breaking for Roland personally.

I know, I know...the quakes, the whole thing. Everyone felt it. But I am coming to believe that all of it, every character, ever event...everything, its all because of him.

alinda
05-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Roland as the center of the multiverse? Or....Roland is The Tower?

alinda
05-14-2008, 05:09 PM
uh yes I see that....n/m *I'll just go over here and rethink this*------------------->

Unfound One
05-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Roland as the center of the multiverse? Or....Roland is The Tower?

Whoa. What an idea...

alinda
05-14-2008, 05:23 PM
I know when Matt said ...its all because of him.
my head nearly exploded !

Power Surge
05-14-2008, 08:58 PM
The Tower is a machine infused with prim. I know it is! ;)

Jean
05-14-2008, 11:36 PM
it's one of the ideas I've been toying with for some time by now, too... Not only Roland, by the way - everyone.

alinda
05-15-2008, 03:15 AM
Not so far fetched tho, considering the ture fabric of
our existance.

Mark
05-15-2008, 09:34 AM
I seem to have the memory that, in DT7, Walter mentions about him wanting to get to the tower, that he was on the same journey as Roland, and that was the only reason he works for The crimson King, 'cause he wants to get to the tower. From this, i assumed he'd never been to the Tower, but wanted to get there. Walter saying what he said to Callahan, is his belief, and belief is just a different word for opinion, in my opinion, and we all know that opinions aren't facts.

razz
05-15-2008, 11:24 AM
whoa when did this happen? I don't remember anything about this in the DT series. Or was it in another book referencing the DT world?


i can't specifically remember where, but i think roland tells the tet this in one of thier palavars.