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View Full Version : Who is Andre Linoge? *Spoilers maybe?*



PBear71
10-14-2013, 01:32 AM
I've had Stephen King's Storm of the Century on my mind alot recently. Not really sure of why but I have been wondering about Andre Linoge. Is he Randal Flagg as well? Or is he not linked into any other of his works? And what exactly is Andre? Demon? Wizard? Some say that Stephen King doesn't do demons.. (But what is the creature from Desperation?


sorry for any errors or if this is not posted correctly Its been a rough few days for me with no sleep and being ill.

Merlin1958
10-14-2013, 08:18 AM
Andre Linoge = I am Legion. Seems fairly clear he is a demon, If not the Devil

Jean
10-14-2013, 08:35 AM
I must read it some day

PBear71
10-14-2013, 10:21 AM
I can agree with your statement Merlin. But for some reason I just cannot fully accept it. I guess I am a bit hard headed. I guess I am kind of hoping that it was something like misdirection for us fans. We focus a bit to much on the name Legion (Therefore he must be demon) to notice that RF was at it again.

And yes Jean you simply must read it and if you haven't seen the movie give it a go. It is one of my many favorites. Even thought of getting a tattoo of the wolf head cane with a scroll under saying "Give me what I want and I will go away"

Jean
10-14-2013, 10:26 AM
I will do it first thing after the end of the Big Event (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?17542-Top-100-Novels-of-All-Time-General-Discussion)

I hope everyone has voted, by the way?

CyberGhostface
10-14-2013, 02:31 PM
I don't think it was Flagg given that Andre Linoge would eventually die of old age, something I don't think was an issue for Flagg. Also King would have listed it as a connected book if Linoge was related.

Merlin1958
10-14-2013, 02:32 PM
I can agree with your statement Merlin. But for some reason I just cannot fully accept it. I guess I am a bit hard headed. I guess I am kind of hoping that it was something like misdirection for us fans. We focus a bit to much on the name Legion (Therefore he must be demon) to notice that RF was at it again.

And yes Jean you simply must read it and if you haven't seen the movie give it a go. It is one of my many favorites. Even thought of getting a tattoo of the wolf head cane with a scroll under saying "Give me what I want and I will go away"

I agree some thing was "Off" as he named him "Legion" and yet all evidence went towards him being some sort of evil wizard. His mortality alone spoke to something else. Perhaps it was an "evil inside joke"!! LOL


Jean, it was a TV movie you should be able to download it and watch it.

Tik
10-14-2013, 06:23 PM
I used to think that Andre Linoge was an original character, but after rereading every King story last year, it became apparent to me that Andre Linoge was another facet of Randall Flagg.

Here are some points as to why I think this:

Flagg/Walter's real name (as given in The Stand and The Gunslinger) is Legion. This ties Andre Linoge to the same character.

Andre Linoge can change his appearance and also turns into a wizard of Mid-World appearance.

Andre Linoge continues with Flagg's obsession with having a child (from The Stand).

Andre Linoge says he will die, but not for many decades (if not hundreds of years) yet to come. In Wolves of the Calla, Walter tells Father Callahan that he knows he will die in one possible future because he's seen it in one of the magical glass orbs of Maerlyns Rainbow.

Andre Linoge admits he isn't a god or an immortal. We learn in the Dark Tower that Randall Flagg is quasi-immortal, a term which would apply to Linoge.

I used to think that the fact Flagg's new kid from Storm of the Century isn't mentioned/seen at a later date indicated that they were separate characters. I then realized that Flagg has lived so long that he could have easily raised the kid, taught him everything he knew, and sent him away to carry on his own life in the hundreds of years that occur between each published story. As such, this lack of info from Flagg in a different book isn't strong evidence to them being separate characters.

Likewise Linoge's use of the dog cane, not used in any of Flagg's other appearances. I then realized this was true of all of Flagg's magical objects. For example, the crystal from Eyes of the Dragon isn't used by Flagg after that story. The use of Black 13 isn't mentioned outside of the Dark Tower. Flagg's use of a gear stick and silver sink as a magical artifact in The Wind Through the Keyhole isn't repeated elsewhere. Etc. As such, Flagg's lack of use of the dog cane in other stories isn't strong evidence for them being different characters.

Not to mention, Andre Linoge and Walter/Flagg act very similar.....

Well, lets just say in my mind they are all facets of Legion.


As to what Legion's nature is, well, if you believe Linoge and Flagg to be both Legion then he/it is a quasi-immortal demon that often takes the form of a wizard.

mtdman
10-26-2013, 08:32 AM
I do not think he is Flagg. He looked nothing like Jamie Sheridan.

CyberGhostface
10-26-2013, 02:50 PM
Also if he was Flagg King would have made some sort of reference to the events of Storm in DT or make reference to the Roanoke Island, something to tie the two together.

Merlin1958
10-26-2013, 03:26 PM
Also if he was Flagg King would have made some sort of reference to the events of Storm in DT or make reference to the Roanoke Island, something to tie the two together.

Now that you mention it, wasn't "Roanoke" mentioned in "IT" which is a definite "TDT" book? Not necessarily in the same context, but....hmmmmm. :orely:

Flagg, is as likely a suspect as anything he hinted at in the film.

Tik
02-23-2014, 09:13 AM
Also if he was Flagg King would have made some sort of reference to the events of Storm in DT or make reference to the Roanoke Island, something to tie the two together.
Not at all to my mind. After all, King doesn't mention confirmed aliases of Flagg in the Dark Tower too, or their actions. For example, Russell Faraday, Browson, Bill Hinch, Robert Franq, Richard Fry, Ramsey Forrest, Raymond Fiegler, etc are all Flagg but are not mentioned anywhere in the Dark Tower series. Not to mention that one could argue that Flagg's real name in the Gunslinger being Legion and Andre Linoge's real name being Legion is the link you are looking for.

Just look at all these appearances back to back:

http://creativevisions.scificincinnati.com/images/sorcerer_1_5.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3101431-standcomicspromo.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/Walter_o'Dim.PNG


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ei5P_6el3ZE

The similarities are very striking when viewed in such a fashion. To my mind they are one and the same.

CyberGhostface
02-23-2014, 10:48 AM
I'm still not seeing the similarities here beyond 'evil wizard guy'. You might as well say Leland Gaunt is Flagg, or Pennywise since he called himself 'Legion' as well at one point.

Also Linoge's motivation, that he is mortal and will eventually die of old age and that his 'true form' is that of a decrepit old man, doesn't match up with anything we know about Flagg. That Flagg can die is not the same as that he will die of old age at one point. Plus since the ending of Storm had Linoge years in the future with his new 'son' (having grown from a child to a young adult), at minimum, this would have been a significant thing for Flagg to overlook, especially since he brings up someone as relatively minor to him as Trashcan Man. Plus why would he need to steal a child when 'The Stand' and 'The Gunslinger' both show that he's more than capable of siring one himself?

Tik
02-24-2014, 04:13 AM
I'm still not seeing the similarities here beyond 'evil wizard guy'. You might as well say Leland Gaunt is Flagg, or Pennywise since he called himself 'Legion' as well at one point.
Not at all! Unlike Flagg and Linoge, there are no similarities between Flagg, Gaunt, and Pennywise. Their natures are completely different.

Leland Gaunt is always a salesman. His MO never changes. He is also known in Mid-World as the Peddler, a distinction not linked with Legion/the Ageless Stranger/Flagg at all in the DT series. Likewise Gaunt also always collects souls in his bag during every scheme, its his thing. There's also the fact that Gaunt's character is written very differently from Flagg/Linoge, even allowing for the slight differences between each of Flagg's personas.

As for Pennywise, he is a cosmic entity that exists outside of the universe. He's as far from Flagg as you can get. Oh, and that reference to Legion?


And all these voices answered back, she said - grunts and babbles and and howls and yips, screams and laughin, don't you know. And she said they were sayin what the possessed man said to Jesus: "Our name is Legion," they said.
It's clear that Pennywise is merely quoting the Bible, via a crowd of dead children, as a scare tactic. Compare that with the times when Flagg, the Ageless Stranger, and Andre Linoge are all identified as Legion, where it's presented matter of factly that this is his name and not, say, a phrase lifted from the Bible and applied to some ghostly victims.

Also Linoge's motivation, that he is mortal and will eventually die of old age and that his 'true form' is that of a decrepit old man, doesn't match up with anything we know about Flagg. That Flagg can die is not the same as that he will die of old age at one point.
Flagg himself says something about dying in his future to Callahan in DT 5:


If yon two die on their course - as they almost certainly must - you will live a life of rural serenity in the place to which I send you, and there you too will die, full of years and possibly with a false but undoubtedly pleasing sense of redemption. You'll live on your level of the Tower long after I'm bone-dust on mine. This I promise you, Faddah, for I have seen it in the glass, say true!

Like Linoge, Flagg knows he's going to die at some point in his future. Of course, he tries to change this by becoming the God of All leading to a different death at the hands of Mordred in the pursuit of said scheme.

What we know of Linoge matches up with what we know of Flagg - the term quasi-immortal applies to both. It's worth noting we don't know why Linoge is going to die, only that he's still got hundreds of years left to go. We also know that Flagg is very old. If he accurately aged the face he was born with, of course he would look like an old man. Even in Eyes of the Dragon, which features the youngest incarnation of Flagg in King's books, he is described as looking of the age of 50 and having lank hair.

Plus since the ending of Storm had Linoge years in the future with his new 'son' (having grown from a child to a young adult), at minimum, this would have been a significant thing for Flagg to overlook, especially since he brings up someone as relatively minor to him as Trashcan Man.
He brings up Trashcan Man and overlooks his wife Nadine Cross and his unborn son in the Dark Tower too. It doesn't mean anything. The only reason Trashcan Man is referenced at all is because he's recruiting a man in a manner that reminds him of Trashy. If he saw someone that reminded him of Nadine or, yes, Ralph then they would have been mentioned too.

He's lived a long, long life. You simply can't expect every aspect of his life to be referenced in the DT series, even from those episodes from other books.

You know what's also over looked in the DT series? Flagg's obsession with having an heir/son. It's almost as if he managed to accomplish this goal before the DT series starts....

Plus why would he need to steal a child when 'The Stand' and 'The Gunslinger' both show that he's more than capable of siring one himself?
People who can sire children have also been known to adopt.

CyberGhostface
02-24-2014, 09:56 AM
Leland Gaunt is always a salesman. His MO never changes. He is also known in Mid-World as the Peddler, a distinction not linked with Legion/the Ageless Stranger/Flagg at all in the DT series. Likewise Gaunt also always collects souls in his bag during every scheme, its his thing. There's also the fact that Gaunt's character is written very differently from Flagg/Linoge, even allowing for the slight differences between each of Flagg's personas.

How do we know Flagg just didn't spend a hundred or so years of his life collecting souls for shits and giggles?



Flagg himself says something about dying in his future to Callahan in DT 5:


If yon two die on their course - as they almost certainly must - you will live a life of rural serenity in the place to which I send you, and there you too will die, full of years and possibly with a false but undoubtedly pleasing sense of redemption. You'll live on your level of the Tower long after I'm bone-dust on mine. This I promise you, Faddah, for I have seen it in the glass, say true!

Like Linoge, Flagg knows he's going to die at some point in his future. Of course, he tries to change this by becoming the God of All leading to a different death at the hands of Mordred in the pursuit of said scheme.

What we know of Linoge matches up with what we know of Flagg - the term quasi-immortal applies to both. It's worth noting we don't know why Linoge is going to die, only that he's still got hundreds of years left to go. We also know that Flagg is very old. If he accurately aged the face he was born with, of course he would look like an old man. Even in Eyes of the Dragon, which features the youngest incarnation of Flagg in King's books, he is described as looking of the age of 50 and having lank hair.

But with Storm that was definitively shown as his "true form" -- there's nothing to suggest Flagg's true form was an old man. Also it was pretty clear that Linoge was going to die of old age, something that Flagg never mentioned as a possibility. Even when Flagg wanted a heir in The Stand I don't believe he was ever concerned about dying of old age like Lionoge is. Plus he never mentioned old age being a reason for wanting to become God of All.


He brings up Trashcan Man and overlooks his wife Nadine Cross and his unborn son in the Dark Tower too. It doesn't mean anything. The only reason Trashcan Man is referenced at all is because he's recruiting a man in a manner that reminds him of Trashy. If he saw someone that reminded him of Nadine or, yes, Ralph then they would have been mentioned too.

He's lived a long, long life. You simply can't expect every aspect of his life to be referenced in the DT series, even from those episodes from other books.

Nadine was means to an end for a heir that ended in failure. Characters that he has an actual connection with, like Gabrielle who he claimed to have loved, he brings up. One would have to imagine that an actual successful heir, not a failure, would be something of importance to him.


You know what's also over looked in the DT series? Flagg's obsession with having an heir/son. It's almost as if he managed to accomplish this goal before the DT series starts....

Then where is he? Wasn't Linoge's plan for someone for him to train and take over when he died? Why didn't that factor into his plans at all? Wouldn't it have made sense for Ralph to tag along or at least function somehow in his plans?

Also he impregnated Sylvia.


People who can sire children have also been known to adopt.

Not the way Linoge does it. Remember how Linoge says he can't take the child, it has to be given willingly? Since when would that ever apply to someone like Flagg if he was actually up for the adoption route?

Also, consider:

1. When King listed all the DT-related books on the final books, including obscure mentions like 'Rose Madder' or 'Skeleton Crew', Storm is nowhere to be found. Wouldn't a story centered around Flagg gain credence over a throwaway reference to Lud?
2. When Bev Vincent wrote not one but two books on The Dark Tower series with King helping, wouldn't King have thrown a bone and say "Hey, I intended Linoge to be Flagg" in either his correspondences or lengthy interviews since no one else picked up on it in the 10+ years past its initial release?

Tik
02-24-2014, 06:15 PM
How do we know Flagg just didn't spend a hundred or so years of his life collecting souls for shits and giggles?
Not only is Leland Gaunt written as a completely different character to any other aspect of Flagg, not only is the thrill of trade Gaunt's very reason for being (very unlike Flagg), not only his is MO completely different to any aspect of Flagg (shops, bartering with customers, etc is not Flagg's cup of tea, he prefers to pour poison into the ears of leaders), but we also learn that Gaunt started out in life as a Peddler, which goes against everything we know about Flagg.

But with Storm that was definitively shown as his "true form" -- there's nothing to suggest Flagg's true form was an old man. Also it was pretty clear that Linoge was going to die of old age, something that Flagg never mentioned as a possibility. Even when Flagg wanted a heir in The Stand I don't believe he was ever concerned about dying of old age like Lionoge is. Plus he never mentioned old age being a reason for wanting to become God of All.
Of course there is. Flagg had an original face, that original form was raped at 13/14 (so we know he ages, as he does throughout the years that pass in Eyes of the Dragon), and Flagg is now thousands of years old - of course that original face would have aged, if Flagg wishes to use it.

No, Linoge never states he's dying of old age. He simply states he's "old and sick. Dying in fact." (although what kind of sickness allows him to continue living for hundreds of years is anyone's guess).

No, dying is never mentioned as a reason for him wanting an heir in The Stand or climbing the Tower in the DT series. But this is for a simple reason, he's not yet aware of any sickness - both The Stand and his original reasons for climbing the Tower (which we learn in DT7 he acquired early on in life) occur earlier in his timeline after all.

Nadine was means to an end for a heir that ended in failure. Characters that he has an actual connection with, like Gabrielle who he claimed to have loved, he brings up. One would have to imagine that an actual successful heir, not a failure, would be something of importance to him.
He may have liked him (like a man would like a pet) but, like Nadine, Trashcan Man was a huge failure for Flagg. In fact, he's the reason Flagg was defeated. Likewise it's directly stated that Flagg was rather fond of Thomas in the Eyes of the Dragon, but Flagg never mentions him, even once, in the DT series. The claim that Flagg would mention every single person he ever had a connection with from all those thousands of years of living in the DT series is something I cannot buy. Of course he wouldn't!

Also, who can tell if Ralph was a success in the end or not?

Then where is he? Wasn't Linoge's plan for someone for him to train and take over when he died? Why didn't that factor into his plans at all? Wouldn't it have made sense for Ralph to tag along or at least function somehow in his plans?
He's somewhere safe, carrying on evil deeds if Flagg's plans fail (probably on Earth). You said it yourself, Linoge intends Ralph to carry on his work if he dies - it would make zero sense for Flagg to train him up and then drag him into these situations where the possibility of death is greatly increased! That's Ralph's function in Flagg's plan, to live on if Flagg fails.

Also he impregnated Sylvia.
With the Crimson King's child. As a trap. An unborn baby which Flagg doesn't even care lives or dies. An unborn baby Roland kills, to which Flagg shows no reaction or even blame towards Roland. Somewhat of a departure from his earlier characterization, unless his legacy has already been secured.

Not the way Linoge does it. Remember how Linoge says he can't take the child, it has to be given willingly? Since when would that ever apply to someone like Flagg if he was actually up for the adoption route?
We have already seen a similar thing occur to Flagg before. Because it's a ritual, in much the same way Flagg's child had to be born from Nadine in The Stand.

Also, consider:

1. When King listed all the DT-related books on the final books, including obscure mentions like 'Rose Madder' or 'Skeleton Crew', Storm is nowhere to be found. Wouldn't a story centered around Flagg gain credence over a throwaway reference to Lud?
Not necessarily, it wasn't a comprehensive list and Rose Madder is more Dark Tower related (even features ka). The Plant, which wasn't there, name drops The Crimson King (Ram Abbalah) quite extensively. Needful Thing's isn't bolded, despite a large reliance on a key Dark Tower concept (aka The White). Thinner isn't bolded, despite the character of Ginelli showing up in DT2. Other lesser connections were also ignored, such as the Mid-World trick of Dimness being heavily featured in Sleepwalkers.

2. When Bev Vincent wrote not one but two books on The Dark Tower series with King helping, wouldn't King have thrown a bone and say "Hey, I intended Linoge to be Flagg" in either his correspondences or lengthy interviews since no one else picked up on it in the 10+ years past its initial release?
Not necessarily. Bev Vincent may have interviewed King, but he didn't find out that Mearlyn was Flagg's father. When he asked King to elaborate on Roland's siblings, King declines. So it's clear King isn't going to spell out everything for us, even when asked.

At the end of the day, we can make a comparison. After DT7 came out, there was a lot of speculation about whether Dandelo was another guise of Pennywise/It. Via his moderators, King revealed definitively that they were not. The "Andre Linoge being Flagg" theory has been around a lot longer than that and King has never revealed any information to the contrary, revealing that at the very least King is thus far happy for fans to make that connection, unlike the Dandelo/Pennywise theory.

I'm not saying you have to agree, only that to my mind (and perhaps others) that connection is very definitely there. The characterization is extremely similar, the look is extremely similar, the shape shifting is identical, and Andre Linoge is identified as being the demon named Legion just as Flagg is identified as being the demon named Legion.

Merlin1958
02-25-2014, 05:11 PM
Just my two cents, but I don't think that, Gaunt has anything at all to do with, Flaff or Linoge for that matter. I always took him to be "The Devil" and therefore a more traditional (?) horror story character. Now, Flagg and Linoge could at least share a kindred and be rooted in TDT universe (s). They could be related for that matter or, Linoge may have been a protoge of Flagg. Just a thought.

WeDealInLead
02-28-2014, 07:24 PM
I'll have to read the book again and look for clues, but I didn't think Linoge was Flagg. It never even crossed my mind.

I'm sure I could convince myself it's him if I started to look for hints and fit the pieces of the puzzle the way I want them to fit, but my first impression is that it's not Flagg.

Merlin1958
02-28-2014, 08:17 PM
I'll have to read the book again and look for clues, but I didn't think Linoge was Flagg. It never even crossed my mind.

I'm sure I could convince myself it's him if I started to look for hints and fit the pieces of the puzzle the way I want them to fit, but my first impression is that it's not Flagg.

Yeah, I agree. There are certain similarities, which lead me to think they may be related or of similar disciplines, but definitely not the same incarnation of one another.

Jon
02-28-2014, 08:44 PM
Yes. I must agree.

Tik
03-03-2014, 02:33 AM
I'm sure I could convince myself it's him if I started to look for hints and fit the pieces of the puzzle the way I want them to fit, but my first impression is that it's not Flagg.
You don't have to look for anything, it leaps off the page/screen.

I certainly didn't try and fit pieces of a puzzle together. In fact, as mentioned in my first post, I was trying everything to convince myself that they were separate characters. I would list the little differences - his use of a wolf cane, not using the initials RF, his adoption of a protege, his sickness, and the lack of follow up in the DT series. I used to try and hand wave away the Legion connection.

Then I decided to read/watch all of King's works in order. As I went on, the desperate explanations to separate the two characters became increasingly difficult to take seriously. You read Eyes of the Dragon and The Stand and you realize there are just as many differences here between the two Flagg's as in this case, what with one of them specifically mentioned as not being able to shape shift while the other one does so regularly, Eye's Flagg being afraid of being poisoned while Stand Flagg wouldn't have battered an eyelid, his sense of humour, Stand's Flagg use of technology, etc.

In the end, the principle of Occams Razor hammered the last nail in the coffin for the "different characters" theory for me. Flagg is identified as the individual Legion and Linoge is identified as the individual Legion IE they are both the same individual. People can come up with as many theories as they like to try and explain this away but if the principle of Occams Razor is applied to this problem, reaching for such theories would make zero sense.

Using this principle to cut out everything that cannot be observed (for example, any explanation that hand waves away the Legion connection) and you end up with certain observed facts. The empirical evidence is as follows:

Flagg is identified as the individual Legion.

Linoge is identified as the individual Legion.

Flagg and Linoge have a few differences.

Many confirmed versions of Flagg have a few differences between themselves.

Flagg and Linoge have similarities.

Many confirmed versions of Flagg have similarities between themselves.

Flagg and Linoge are the same archetype.



At the end of the day, the empirical evidence from King's fiction outright states that they are the same individual - Legion. And for me, that was impossible to sweep under the rug with complicated explanations and wild theories. The simplest, least complex explanation turned out to be the best. Not only that, but it was how King's work was portraying things and I didn't want to fight that.

Merlin1958
03-03-2014, 10:19 AM
You're not taking into account that "Legion" is not really a "Character/Individual" per se. Throughout literature "Legion" is described as a metaphor for the devil. Not sure if I am explaining this properly, but "I am Legion, for we are many". Legion would therefore be virtually anyone demon (etc) in league with the Devil/Crimson King". Just because both Linoge and Flagg at one time or another refer to themselves as "Legion" does not make them the same individual. That shoots a big whole in your theory, no? Mordred, Dandelo, It and Barlow could all refer to themselves as "Legion". It's not empirical evidence IMHO

This was explored very well in "The Exorcist" where the "Demon" refers to himself as "Legion", but is in fact a higher Demon in Satan's order in hell for example.

WeDealInLead
03-03-2014, 10:27 AM
Tik, I like your critical thinking and step-by-step approach to presenting your case. I wasn't implying you were trying to make the pieces fit. I meant I could fit them if I wanted to convince myself. For me, all that "evidence" is a little co-incidental. King has never been one for finesse when it comes to DT connections (see: Black House, Insomnia, FAB8, Hearts in Atlantis, UR) and I feel the connection would have been more obvious.

You make a very strong case but I have follow my instinct on this one. Also, I'd like to think King can still come up with a bad guy independent of the DT "mythos".

Tik
03-05-2014, 04:18 AM
Tik, I like your critical thinking and step-by-step approach to presenting your case. I wasn't implying you were trying to make the pieces fit. I meant I could fit them if I wanted to convince myself. For me, all that "evidence" is a little co-incidental. King has never been one for finesse when it comes to DT connections (see: Black House, Insomnia, FAB8, Hearts in Atlantis, UR) and I feel the connection would have been more obvious.

You make a very strong case but I have follow my instinct on this one. Also, I'd like to think King can still come up with a bad guy independent of the DT "mythos".
Thank you :).

And you do right. I love debating these type of questions in fiction but at the end of the day I firmly believe that an individual is always right in what they personally believe the answer to be. The debating, in my opinion, is to get ideas out there because a good discussion about these things can illuminate aspects of the story that can sometimes be missed. But at the end of the day, the fiction is there to fire our imagination and for us to use said imagination to arrive at our own conclusions.

You're not taking into account that "Legion" is not really a "Character/Individual" per se. Throughout literature "Legion" is described as a metaphor for the devil. Not sure if I am explaining this properly, but "I am Legion, for we are many". Legion would therefore be virtually anyone demon (etc) in league with the Devil/Crimson King". Just because both Linoge and Flagg at one time or another refer to themselves as "Legion" does not make them the same individual. That shoots a big whole in your theory, no? Mordred, Dandelo, It and Barlow could all refer to themselves as "Legion". It's not empirical evidence IMHO

This was explored very well in "The Exorcist" where the "Demon" refers to himself as "Legion", but is in fact a higher Demon in Satan's order in hell for example.
In some fictions you would be correct but in others Legion is refered to as an individual. This also appears to be the case in King's work since no other character apart from Flagg and Linoge are identified as Legion (although the ghostly victims of Pennywise do quote that passage from the Bible).

The empirical evidence would then be the following:


“He looks like anybody you see on the street. But when he grins, birds fall dead off telephone lines. When he looks at you a certain way, your prostate goes bad and your urine burns. The grass yellows up and dies where he spits. He’s always outside. He came out of time. He doesn’t know himself. He has the name of a thousand demons. Jesus knocked him into a herd of pigs once. His name is Legion. He’s afraid of us. We’re inside. He knows magic. He can call the wolves and live in the crows. He’s the king of nowhere. But he’s afraid of us. He’s afraid of… inside.” - The Stand.


“And this Stranger, does he have a name?”

“O, he is named.”

“And what is his name?”

“Legion,” the man in black said softly, and somewhere in the easterly darkness where the mountains lay, a rockslide punctuated his words and a puma screamed like a woman. The gunslinger shivered and the man in black flinched. “Yet I do not think that is what you wished to ask, either. It is not your nature to think so far ahead.”

The gunslinger knew the question; it had gnawed him all this night, and he thought, for years before. It trembled on his lips but he didn’t ask it . . . not yet.

“This Stranger is a minion of the Tower? Like yourself?”

“Yar. He darkles. He tincts. He is in all times. - The Gunslinger

Coupled with the "Linoge is Legion" revelation scene from Storm of the Century (snippets can be seen in the video I posted earlier).

As you can see from the quotes/clip above, Flagg, the Ageless Stranger, and Linoge are specifically refered to as the individual Legion. There is no quote in King's work that suggests that the term Legion would apply to the armies of the Crimson King. As such, if you're using the principle of Occams Razor (which I was), this ad hoc hypothesis would be "cut" away, as it were, because of the lack of evidence to support it.

If anything, the term Legion in these quotes seems to be a reference to the fact that Flagg can be found in all times and has thousands of different names/forms. A legion of Flagg's, if you will, but all of them the same individual.

Merlin1958
03-05-2014, 05:34 PM
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you are looking at it in too "Literal" terms and not in the interpetive manner that I feel "Legion" is intended. By definition "Legion" is one of many. It's also a sly way for the Devil to confuse and deceive his target. Also I did not mean to suggest that "Legion" was made up of the Crimson King's Army. Not at all. Through out literature "Legion" is suggested as another name for the Devil and/or his demon cabinet, so to speak. I really suck at trying to type out my thoughts, but I hope you get my gist.

Two questions, and I mean no offense what so ever, Have you read "The Exorcist & Legion"? Can you reference where "Legion" was used definitively to identify an individual in literature. I'm curious. I consider myself fairly well read and cannot recall an instance where this was the case. I would appreciate the education. You learn something everyday I say.

Tik
03-10-2014, 06:39 PM
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you are looking at it in too "Literal" terms and not in the interpetive manner that I feel "Legion" is intended. By definition "Legion" is one of many. It's also a sly way for the Devil to confuse and deceive his target. Also I did not mean to suggest that "Legion" was made up of the Crimson King's Army. Not at all. Through out literature "Legion" is suggested as another name for the Devil and/or his demon cabinet, so to speak. I really suck at trying to type out my thoughts, but I hope you get my gist.
Don't worry, I get what you're saying :).

The thing is though if we use the interpretive manner, Flagg's multiple appearances throughout time and space could be interpreted as fulfilling that definition (each Flagg is part of that Legion of Flagg's) Or it could be interpreted that the Bible quote can also been taken literally, and that the demon Flagg is actually made up of multiple demons inside of him, all acting as an individual (might also explain how Ralph became demonic in the end, if Flagg allowed a few of 'em to reside in him).

There could be lots, which is why I resorted to Occams Razor.


Two questions, and I mean no offense what so ever, Have you read "The Exorcist & Legion"? Can you reference where "Legion" was used definitively to identify an individual in literature. I'm curious. I consider myself fairly well read and cannot recall an instance where this was the case. I would appreciate the education. You learn something everyday I say.
Alas I haven't, though I've seen the films that were based on these works.

As to individuals, examples include the demon Legion from the Xena comics, who was a definitive individual:

http://www.comicvine.com/xena-warrior-princess-13-legion/4000-48255/

The character of Legion from the Special Executive was also an individual, albeit an individual able to summon multiple versions of himself from along his time stream into the "present".

Individuals capable of absorbing souls can also identify themselves as Legion (such as the demon Blackheart in the Ghost Rider film).

Merlin1958
03-12-2014, 03:45 PM
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you are looking at it in too "Literal" terms and not in the interpetive manner that I feel "Legion" is intended. By definition "Legion" is one of many. It's also a sly way for the Devil to confuse and deceive his target. Also I did not mean to suggest that "Legion" was made up of the Crimson King's Army. Not at all. Through out literature "Legion" is suggested as another name for the Devil and/or his demon cabinet, so to speak. I really suck at trying to type out my thoughts, but I hope you get my gist.
Don't worry, I get what you're saying :).

The thing is though if we use the interpretive manner, Flagg's multiple appearances throughout time and space could be interpreted as fulfilling that definition (each Flagg is part of that Legion of Flagg's) Or it could be interpreted that the Bible quote can also been taken literally, and that the demon Flagg is actually made up of multiple demons inside of him, all acting as an individual (might also explain how Ralph became demonic in the end, if Flagg allowed a few of 'em to reside in him).

There could be lots, which is why I resorted to Occams Razor.

I can see Flagg as "Legion" and even interpet that his multiple forms throughout the Multi-verse make him "One of many". It's a little bit of a stretch, but a case could be made for it. I just don't see, Linoge as that despite what he claimed. One thing that is definitive to me is that neither is immortal. To me that's a deal breaker.


Two questions, and I mean no offense what so ever, Have you read "The Exorcist & Legion"? Can you reference where "Legion" was used definitively to identify an individual in literature. I'm curious. I consider myself fairly well read and cannot recall an instance where this was the case. I would appreciate the education. You learn something everyday I say.
Alas I haven't, though I've seen the films that were based on these works.

As to individuals, examples include the demon Legion from the Xena comics, who was a definitive individual:

http://www.comicvine.com/xena-warrior-princess-13-legion/4000-48255/

The character of Legion from the Special Executive was also an individual, albeit an individual able to summon multiple versions of himself from along his time stream into the "present".

Individuals capable of absorbing souls can also identify themselves as Legion (such as the demon Blackheart in the Ghost Rider film).

Again, no offense intended, but I do not consider comics "Literature". I'm not being a snob, I enjoy a comic now and again like anyone, but I was thinking more along the lines of published works of fiction like King, Milton, Blatty, Poe or Lovecraft for instance. The same opinion holds for films.

stroppygoblin
03-13-2014, 08:34 AM
anyone considered the name "Andre Linoge" itself? I'm keen on anagrams (as some of you are aware) and you can get some interesting ones out of it.

Ignoring the fact that Linoge is obviously an anagram of 'Legion', the next most obvious for the full name is 'Orange Lined', but unless he has a taste in spiffy suits, that doesn't really point to anything. You can also get "Edgar Online" again not seemingly related. If we mix in some Italian however we can get "Red Angelino" which could be read as "Red Messenger of God". Now that I find interesting...

Jean
03-16-2014, 11:57 AM
bears like this approach

definitely time they read the book at last

Jean
05-13-2014, 03:00 AM
I have finally finished the book.

If I had accomplished this incredible task earlier, I would have given it my first and only zero in CRA. I'll do it next year.

This book should have never been published. The screenplay format doesn't give King any opportunity to show what he is best at - this "hole in the page", as defined in Misery, this aptitude to involve the reader in the story. As a writer of prose, he writes impeccable, powerful dialog - but it is because he knows how to parse it, how to make it work inside the flow of prose. Without this background, the dialog is dead, and the characters made of cardboard. And the story is so puerile! Even without the unnecessary and totally stupid last twenty or so pages, when the story goes on long after it is finished. I understand that it must be okay for a typical B-movie; but I repeat, it should have never been published.

Thus, I my only answer to the title question of this thread is "I couldn't care less."
In a couple week it will evolve into, "Really, who is Andre Linoge?" - not because I'll be interested, but because everything about this effort will be totally forgotten.

Heather19
05-13-2014, 07:10 AM
:(
Did you enjoy the mini-series?

Jean
05-13-2014, 07:56 AM
No, I didn't see it. Do you think I should?

Heather19
05-13-2014, 10:31 AM
Personally I loved it.

CRinVA
05-13-2014, 11:00 AM
I thought the Mini-Series was superb! Of course reading a screenplay is tough at best. Go see somehow! Get the DVD whatever it takes. It's good!

Jean
05-13-2014, 12:16 PM
if their dearest friends say so, bears will have to see what they can do

Merlin1958
05-13-2014, 08:46 PM
To be honest, I've collected the published version merely to satisfy my collecting compulsion, but I have never read it since I saw the TV film. It was a little better, IMHO than most King TV movie's. I can imagine reading the screenplay as not being very fulfilling.

pewpewpew
08-26-2015, 10:08 PM
i know this old but here goes. I hate the thought that Linoge is somehow an alternate persona of Flagg but with King's double fail ending of the DT books i've realized my opinion of King's creativity was too high so I will relent and add something else of possible relevance linking Linoge to Flagg.

In the movie there are "weirding stones" in the town hall meeting used by Linoge to decide which child he'd take. The black stone in particular looks identical to the stone(s) used in The Stand when Flagg was making his pacts with his lieutenants.. particularly Lloyd.

Mr Awesome
11-30-2015, 01:25 PM
In the last scene of the movie the Stand, Stu holds up the dreaded dog cane Linoge weilds.

Mr Awesome
11-30-2015, 01:29 PM
Is Stu from the Stand really Ralphy from Storm? In the last scene of the Stand Stu is holding Linoge's dreaded dog cane in the hospital.

vaynhanh
01-04-2016, 08:12 PM
I understand that it must be okay for a typical B-movie; but I repeat, it should have never been published.