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Letti
01-03-2008, 12:03 AM
For me that two people, new Eddie and Jake were not the men I loved and respected so much. As Susannah was standing there watching them as they were brothers smiling and stuff... they had such a different history I felt that those two people were just two strangers with the same first names and bodies but no more.
Am I alone with it?

Eddie became that amazing gunslinger we knew because of the things that happened to him. Henry and the drugs (an of course lot's of other things) helped him to become the man we loved. I can accept that Eddie is a great guy everywhere but that Eddie was still a total stranger to me.
So was Jake.

Jean
01-03-2008, 01:46 AM
it's a very interesting question of identity. The auxiliary question is whether you at 22 are the same being as you at 15.

jayson
01-03-2008, 05:05 AM
I think it actually is a good question, especially in light of Jean's belief that Susannah cried off the Tower for love. If that was not the same Eddie, than did she really do it for love? Is a "close enough" Eddie really something worthy of renouncing the Tower [and throwing a gun of the Eld into a garbage can]?

As to the actual question, I have wrestled with that one for awhile. Doesn't it say something somewhere in those sequences that Susannah eventually expected some kind of Oy to show up there? If he did, it makes me suspect these are the same people/creature. It's one of the ambiguities of the ending that I enjoy because it lends itself to discussion.

Letti
01-03-2008, 06:43 AM
Why would Oy's appearance make any difference?

jayson
01-03-2008, 06:48 AM
Why would Oy's appearance make any difference?

Because if they suddenly meet "Oy" after his death, it would seem as if that was THE Oy, not just another Oy. If he was "just another" Oy then I suspect that the "just another" Jake would already have found him. Still, there's nothing definitive either way, though I think the implications of Susannah crying off the Tower for a different Eddie are great.

Wuducynn
01-03-2008, 06:58 AM
Well, we know that there are multiple versions of folk throughout the worlds and the Eddie and Jake that Susannah aren't the exact same folk as the Eddie and Jake she knew and loved, no, but they're close enough.

jayson
01-03-2008, 07:06 AM
Well, we know that there are multiple versions of folk throughout the worlds and the Eddie and Jake that Susannah aren't the exact same folk as the Eddie and Jake she knew and loved, no, but they're close enough.

So if that's true, and it is possible that is, is Jean correct that Susannah cried off the Tower for love? Is it that she felt she could fall in love with the new Eddie? I'm not buying that she did love the new Eddie already. If this wasn't Eddie of the ka-tet of the 19, than Susannah didn't love him. If it's not the same Eddie, I resent Susannah's decision more than I already did. I like this question Letti as it lends itself to the greater question of Susannah's choice. I think the answer to this question is crucial to how you approach the second one.

Matt
01-03-2008, 07:14 AM
If we're talking DNA--they are exactly the same people. Just different levels of the Tower.

If we are talking environment, totally different.

For me, I will compare it to my love for Dora. If she had been killed and I saw a doorway that would lead to a version of her, I would take it. Hands down.

Letti
01-03-2008, 07:18 AM
If we're talking DNA--they are exactly the same people. Just different levels of the Tower.

If we are talking environment, totally different.

For me, I will compare it to my love for Dora. If she had been killed and I saw a doorway that would lead to a version of her, I would take it. Hands down.
Even if she was totally different but the DNA was the same?

Matt
01-03-2008, 07:19 AM
Yep, I would jump at it.

Remember the Tower was saved at this point, all that was left was to go there and see it.

I would have gone with door #2 :lol:

Brice
01-03-2008, 07:20 AM
If we're talking DNA--they are exactly the same people. Just different levels of the Tower.

If we are talking environment, totally different.

For me, I will compare it to my love for Dora. If she had been killed and I saw a doorway that would lead to a version of her, I would take it. Hands down.
Even if she was totally different but the DNA was the same?

Potential for similarity is better than nothing for some people when someone is gone, no? Isn't this why people often (subconsciously) choose someone similar or someone who reminds them of an ex?

Letti
01-03-2008, 07:22 AM
I don't know guys.
For example I would be totally different if I hadn't met my Moon (he changed my life so much 7 years ago). On another level of the Tower without my Moon I would be an unbearably stupid chick.
So... if you see a Letti door don't open it. :)

jayson
01-03-2008, 07:23 AM
Different lives, different people. The door to any other version of my wife than the one I know is a door to a completely different person, no matter how similar they may seem. To me, the psyche is the person and a different version of my wife would have a different psychological make-up dependent on her own experience on her level of the Tower, and thus would not be the same person. To take the analogy further, I wouldn't renounce the Tower, the Tower that my loved one died to protect to try and go love a different version of my departed loved one. I stand by what I said, if that is a different Eddie, Susannah's choice doesn't sit right with me.

Letti
01-03-2008, 07:25 AM
Different lives, different people. The door to any other version of my wife than the one I know is a door to a completely different person, no matter how similar they may seem. To me, the psyche is the person and a different version of my wife would have a different psychological make-up dependent on her own experience on her level of the Tower, and thus would not be the same person. To take the analogy further, I wouldn't renounce the Tower, the Tower that my loved one died to protect to try and go love a different version of my departed loved one. I stand by what I said, if that is a different Eddie, Susannah's choice doesn't sit right with me.

I couldn't agree more. I am not alone. :D

Matt
01-03-2008, 07:26 AM
This is different than someone who looks like her, this is her. But I agree RofG, you wouldn't get the same personality at all.

However, just cause its different doesn't mean it would be worse somehow. I am self aware enough to know there are plenty of things that have happened in my life that I could do without.

And she saved the Tower, put her life on the line to do it.

Brice
01-03-2008, 07:27 AM
I don't know guys.
For example I would be totally different if I hadn't met my Moon (he changed my life so much 7 years ago). On another level of the Tower without my Moon I would be an unbearably stupid chick.
So... if you see a Letti door don't open it. :)

Ah, but doesn't this Letti have the same potential for change that the one we know and love had?

Matt
01-03-2008, 07:28 AM
Bingo!!

Letti
01-03-2008, 07:34 AM
I don't know guys.
For example I would be totally different if I hadn't met my Moon (he changed my life so much 7 years ago). On another level of the Tower without my Moon I would be an unbearably stupid chick.
So... if you see a Letti door don't open it. :)

Ah, but doesn't this Letti have the same potential for change that the one we know and love had?
Yeah... but I know myself. I was quite hopeless. Long story.. but I think I am right about it.

jayson
01-03-2008, 07:36 AM
This is different than someone who looks like her, this is her. But I agree RofG, you wouldn't get the same personality at all.

However, just cause its different doesn't mean it would be worse somehow. I am self aware enough to know there are plenty of things that have happened in my life that I could do without.

And she saved the Tower, put her life on the line to do it.

I'd say they are no more similar genetically than identical twins. If my wife had a twin and then my wife died, I wouldn't think that I should then marry the twin. The inner person, the psyche, that is the "real" person, and my thoughts are that this is determined primarily by the experiences of said person. I'm not saying it would be "worse" for Susannah, this new Eddie could be a great guy. All I'm saying is, it's not Eddie.

As far as her saving the Tower, she certainly stood true while she remained on the path, but she still walked away before she knew the job was done. If she did so to go be with a clone of Eddie to try and hold on to her memories of him, it doesn't sit right with me.

Matt
01-03-2008, 07:40 AM
I can see that :lol:

I don't consider my alternate "me's" as twins in my mind. It is literally the same person imo but I can get where you are coming from.

As far as the Tower goes, the job was done. Sheemie spoke in the Towers voice and said it was so

jayson
01-03-2008, 07:45 AM
I can see that :lol:

I don't consider my alternate "me's" as twins in my mind. It is literally the same person imo but I can get where you are coming from.

As far as the Tower goes, the job was done. Sheemie spoke in the Towers voice and said it was so

My point was same DNA is just about the same thing as identical twins. They look the same and have the same genetic potential, but they are unique beings.

I thought the Beam spoke to Sheemie, not the Tower. Sheemie said the Beam was going to be ok. This removed the threat that the Tower would fall on their way to it, but didn't necessarily mean the Tower itself was beyond danger, not with the CK still present in End-World.

Matt
01-03-2008, 07:48 AM
We can debate the nature of "alternates" all day. This will sound dumb but to me, its a lot about soul and I figure the Dora on the other side of the door is still Dora, not a twin.

It could have been the beam speaking to Sheemie but I am sure that it said ALL IS WELL!! ALL IS WELL!! and that the rest of the beams were repairing themselves, it was over imo.

However, that would be another great topic to debate. :rock:

Brice
01-03-2008, 07:50 AM
Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

Wuducynn
01-03-2008, 07:53 AM
I'm surprised Monte isn't all over this with his "twinner" obsession..

jayson
01-03-2008, 07:54 AM
Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

It's a nice thought. I don't personally buy into the concept, but if you did believe there was an "essence" to living beings than yes, it is possible that this essence could be spread among the multiverse in different facets.

Wuducynn
01-03-2008, 07:56 AM
Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

This is how I see it. Brice put it very well. And some don't have any twins.

Brice
01-03-2008, 08:01 AM
Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

It's a nice thought. I don't personally buy into the concept, but if you did believe there was an "essence" to living beings than yes, it is possible that this essence could be spread among the multiverse in different facets.


Well, in real life I'm a bit more of a skeptic or unbeliever, but fiction is all about suspension of disbelief. :lol:

Brice
01-03-2008, 08:03 AM
[quote=Brice;85855]Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

This is how I see it. Brice put it very well. And some don't have any twins.[/QUOTE/]Yes, usually it seems the more powerful "souls".

jayson
01-03-2008, 08:06 AM
Well, in real life I'm a bit more of a skeptic or unbeliever, but fiction is all about suspension of disbelief. :lol:

Agreed, and I can see where yours is a viable answer to the metaphysical question of "who" these similar folken are on different levels of the Tower. I still prefer to think of all of them as unique entities, but since King never says specifically one way or another, yours makes an interesting alternative theory.

Matt
01-03-2008, 08:09 AM
I think the are both, unique and the same.

But the same in almost every way that matters.

jayson
01-03-2008, 08:15 AM
I think the are both, unique and the same.

But the same in almost every way that matters.

That's where we disagree. I think the ways that matter are determined by experience. They have not had the same experiences and thus are fundamentally different, to me.

Brice
01-03-2008, 08:21 AM
I think the are both, unique and the same.

But the same in almost every way that matters.

That's where we disagree. I think the ways that matter are determined by experience. They have not had the same experiences and thus are fundamentally different, to me.

Ah, this is precisely why I spoke of potential to be the same or similar.


If King thinks otherwise he is wrong. :P

Matt
01-03-2008, 08:23 AM
Yep, and I can see that. I totally understand what you mean too.

Obviously a Dora that did not grow up an only child, did not have a father who drove trucks for a living who died young in her arms, did not have an overbearing Mother who told her she was ugly...she would have been a different person.

Loving that person would take work, her loving me may not be possible. But I believe we were meant to be on all levels of the Tower, one way or another.

Susannah may have felt that way about Eddie, and it could be the Tower wanted that too.

Jean
01-03-2008, 12:51 PM
Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

It's a nice thought. I don't personally buy into the concept, but if you did believe there was an "essence" to living beings than yes, it is possible that this essence could be spread among the multiverse in different facets.

that's precisely what I think happened. It definitely was the same Eddie, Henry or no Henry - and the same Jake. My certainty takes roots in my being religious, of course, and this "substance" for me is soul (as Brice mentioned in another post, too).

jayson
01-03-2008, 01:00 PM
that's precisely what I think happened. It definitely was the same Eddie, Henry or no Henry - and the same Jake. My certainty takes roots in my being religious, of course, and this "substance" for me is soul (as Brice mentioned in another post, too).

Just my own thoughts, but doesn't that kind of cheapen it? It seems to make the individual lives led by the individual Eddie's somewhat meaningless if they are all just extensions of one "essence." No trouble that Susannah lost her Eddie, she can just go to another level of the Tower and get a new one. Again, just my thoughts, but I think it takes away from the uniqueness of the individual.

Letti
01-03-2008, 01:04 PM
Now you do sound like a ka-guy, Jean.

Usually I see your points guys but now... it's too away from me.
How could they be the same?
We are not Gods we are what life or fate or I don't know what shaped us to be. Of course genes are important too but that's just a slice from the big cake.
Sometimes it's just luck that saves us from jail or nervous breakdown or from the madhouse. Because life is hard (even if it's beautiful) and there are strong ones and weak ones and there is luck... if you meet the right person (like me) your life can be saved from one day to the other.
With good help (not just shitty advice) from the right person people can reborn and without help they can become the shadows of themselves.

How can they be the same?

Matt
01-03-2008, 01:06 PM
I think it all boils down to how you feel about "soul" Letti. I believe part of what people are is more than their experiences.

That would be the same imo

Letti
01-03-2008, 01:08 PM
Okay.
So we just live and the soul we have and ka do everything? Or how does it work?
If I am the same everywhere it doesn't matter or make any difference if I am an alcoholic or if I am a nun... what's life about?

Matt
01-03-2008, 01:12 PM
That's up to the individual Letti. My life is about me regardless of all of that.

Its just my screwed up belief system, I suspect I am the only one that subscribes to it. :couple:

Darkthoughts
01-03-2008, 02:36 PM
In general terms I'd agree completely with RofG. But in this instance I think I'd be inclined to say it is the same Eddie and Jake.

I think that because of Jake's previous deaths and how they affected him. He was on the verge of madness because he'd become divided and the new Eddie and Jake appear to have been suffering in the same way. Eddie has been hearing voices, and both he and Jake have been dreaming of Suze for months (which presumably concurs with their deaths.)

Suze's memories start fading as soon as she enters this world, and something about the way the chapter is written, implied to me that the same thing had happened to Jake and Eddie.

For the record, I always imagined that Roland, Eddie, Jake and Suze were without twinners in any of the other worlds.

obscurejude
01-03-2008, 05:19 PM
Interesting R of G- everything. I'm going to think it over some more before I comment on the nature of the soul and such. Very good.

obscurejude
01-03-2008, 05:21 PM
For the record, I always imagined that Roland, Eddie, Jake and Suze were without twinners in any of the other worlds.[/QUOTE]

Me too Darkthoughts. That totally threw me for some reason the first time I read it.

jayson
01-04-2008, 05:40 AM
In general terms I'd agree completely with RofG. But in this instance I think I'd be inclined to say it is the same Eddie and Jake.

I actually do tend to think they are the same Eddie & Jake and that they have not lived their entire lives to date on that level of the Tower, they may just think they have. That was the reason I started the "Why Different for Susannah?" thread because I feel that she was given the same "reward" for her service to the Tower that Eddie & Jake were despite, imo, not givng the same level of service. My thoughts in this thread have mostly been accepting the hypothetical that they are different and exploring the ramifications, but for the record, I believe that it is the same Eddie & Jake.

Brice
01-04-2008, 06:02 AM
Okay.
So we just live and the soul we have and ka do everything? Or how does it work?
If I am the same everywhere it doesn't matter or make any difference if I am an alcoholic or if I am a nun... what's life about?

Searching (whether through science or faith) maybe? Exploring the great big world and trying to be a better you? Who knows? Nobody! Whatever the truth is I doubt we'll ever really know. Does it matter how you are? Of course it does...at least subjectively...and to those around you...which manifests itself subjectively on you. If there's a god or not you don't behave any differently I don't think. Your reward (possibly your only one) is how you are defines who you are. Is experience a factor? Of course it is, but say another you in some alternate universe had some infinitesmal piece of who you started out as...if they had similar experiences might they not be similar to you? Not the same, just similar. Would they actually be you? No, but they might just be close enough for someone who missed and longed for you. Maybe, that's why Susannah chose to go after this Jake and Eddie. Or maybe they were the same. I don't know.

jayson
01-04-2008, 06:05 AM
Your reward (possibly your only one) is how you are defines who you are.

Very well said Brice. As a bit of an obsessive Joseph Campbell devotee, I believe that the only "eternity" we get is now.

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 06:09 AM
Very well said Brice. As a bit of an obsessive Joseph Campbell devotee, I believe that the only "eternity" we get is now.

ZN

Brice
01-04-2008, 06:18 AM
Your reward (possibly your only one) is how you are defines who you are.

Very well said Brice. As a bit of an obsessive Joseph Campbell devotee, I believe that the only "eternity" we get is now.

Ah, but with every now comes a new eternity, no?

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 06:25 AM
Ah, I figured my Dark Tower reference was too obscure ;)

Brice
01-04-2008, 06:28 AM
Ah, I figured my Dark Tower reference was too obscure ;)

It looks vaguely familiar, but is beyond me at the moment.

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 06:30 AM
ZN was the symbol on the 'Riza that Mrs. Eisenhardt showed Roland. It means "Eternity, Then and Now".

Brice
01-04-2008, 06:33 AM
Ah, thanks! I'd forgotten about that.

jayson
01-04-2008, 07:00 AM
Ah, but with every now comes a new eternity, no?

Hypothetically, yes. I have my suspicions but no firm reason to believe that this "now" is the only one we get. If that's the case, than of course, a new eternity comes with each "present" you get to experience. The question then becomes, can you become aware of your previous "nows," and all the ramifications of that stuff. Again, I have my suspicions, but nothing that would count as evidence of anything specific, which is why I try to get the most out of this now. It seems the pragmatic thing to do.

jayson
01-04-2008, 07:05 AM
Matt, I got your Zn reference by the way. I forget nothing about "the Dish." I was as impressed with it as a weapon as Roland was and loved that it came complete with a great story.

Matt
01-04-2008, 07:15 AM
Ah, but with every now comes a new eternity, no?

I love that. I totally agree and I believe this is a great way to perceive life

Darkthoughts
01-04-2008, 08:43 AM
In general terms I'd agree completely with RofG. But in this instance I think I'd be inclined to say it is the same Eddie and Jake.

I actually do tend to think they are the same Eddie & Jake and that they have not lived their entire lives to date on that level of the Tower, they may just think they have. That was the reason I started the "Why Different for Susannah?" thread because I feel that she was given the same "reward" for her service to the Tower that Eddie & Jake were despite, imo, not givng the same level of service. My thoughts in this thread have mostly been accepting the hypothetical that they are different and exploring the ramifications, but for the record, I believe that it is the same Eddie & Jake.

Aha! Then in that case, I do agree with you completely :D

jayson
01-04-2008, 08:45 AM
Aha! Then in that case, I do agree with you completely :D

Always the wisest course of action. ;)

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 08:45 AM
Matt, I got your Zn reference by the way. I forget nothing about "the Dish." I was as impressed with it as a weapon as Roland was and loved that it came complete with a great story.

Okay, because I was worried about you there for a second. Well...half a second. Actually, I didn't really care either way.

jayson
01-04-2008, 08:45 AM
Matt, I got your Zn reference by the way. I forget nothing about "the Dish." I was as impressed with it as a weapon as Roland was and loved that it came complete with a great story.

Okay, because I was worried about you there for a second. Well...half a second. Actually, I didn't really care either way.

ha ha, you care

alinda
01-04-2008, 08:47 AM
have you ever heard the song "The windmills of my mind?


I really like this topic, you are all so delightfully enlightened, I am proud of you all. I agree with you all,

Brice, your amazingly spot on as usual.

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 08:48 AM
Linda, you're bringing harmony again... :angry:

Brice
01-04-2008, 08:49 AM
Thank you Linda! :huglove:

Matt
01-04-2008, 09:38 AM
have you ever heard the song "The windmills of my mind?


I really like this topic, you are all so delightfully enlightened, I am proud of you all. I agree with you all,

Brice, your amazingly spot on as usual.

:huglove:

Thanks alinda, I went home with a huge grin on my face yesterday because these discussions are so very interesting.

jayson
01-04-2008, 09:44 AM
...I went home with a huge grin on my face yesterday because these discussions are so very interesting.

Any Tower-related stuff is fun for me to talk about, but it's the metaphysical questions like this one and some of the others we've been on about lately that intrigue me the most. I enjoy questions where there is no definitive answer, just everybody's individual interpretations.

alinda
01-04-2008, 09:48 AM
and the name of the game is perception !!


" I believe in .....EVERYTHING! "

jayson
01-04-2008, 10:17 AM
and the name of the game is perception !!


" I believe in .....EVERYTHING! "

Precisely Alinda!

Darkthoughts
01-06-2008, 07:10 AM
:grouphug:

It's very cool to have these discussions and realise that a thousand stories are lurking within this one tale, just depending on how you personally perceived it :thumbsup:

Matt
01-06-2008, 01:34 PM
That is so true, I have dedicated myself to going through and listening to them all again now just because of the ideas this brings to mind.

Its amazing, exactly what I wanted for this site. :rock:

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 04:18 AM
Whilst looking for Tower Connections in Insomnia, I came across a passage where Lois asks Clotho and Lachesis where people go when they die. The answer they are given is very pertinent to this discussion; the doctors simultaneously reply,
"Everywhere."
"Other worlds than these."
Which concurs with the notion that they can be the same Eddie and Jake, much as the Jake that died after being pushed under a car by Mort was the same jake Roland dropped, who was the same Jake killed by Bryan Smith etc.
It's not reincarnation, because you are not entirely reborn - you move on .

jayson
01-08-2008, 04:30 AM
Excellent find Lisa!

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 04:32 AM
Cheers :thumbsup: Infact, I'd forgotten (inaccurate Patrcik Danville prophecy aside ;) ) what an excellent guide book Insomnia is, for the metaphysical nature of the Tower.

jayson
01-08-2008, 04:38 AM
Indeed, which is why it gets frequent re-reads from me. I know King never intended to fully pull back the curtain and "explain" all the metaphysics of his multiverse, but I love it anytime he gives it a try, and Insomnia is among the richest examples [not to mention just being a good story].

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 05:07 AM
Could you go look in the discussion thread (it's titled Lois's green man) for the Insomnia Tower Connections page - I posted a question there you might be able to help with :) (Not the green man question.)

jayson
01-08-2008, 05:08 AM
will look for it now

Letti
01-08-2008, 06:26 AM
I have just added a poll. I have read many interesting opinions but I don't know which group is bigger... so here is a poll. :)

Darkthoughts
01-08-2008, 06:30 AM
Good idea Letti, I voted yes, they are the same.

Letti
01-08-2008, 06:34 AM
Thank you for voting, beautiful lady. :rose:

:)

jayson
01-08-2008, 06:35 AM
Letti, I like that you included "who cares" as a choice.

I voted yes. Big shock, I agree with Lisa!

Letti
01-08-2008, 06:39 AM
Letti, I like that you included "who cares" as a choice.

Usually I prefer to give only two choices. To make it even harder. :D

Wuducynn
01-08-2008, 06:40 AM
Letti is an "all or nothing" gal.

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 11:20 AM
Well, we know that there are multiple versions of folk throughout the worlds and the Eddie and Jake that Susannah aren't the exact same folk as the Eddie and Jake she knew and loved, no, but they're close enough.



Ehhh.... Personaly I think they are the same, because Eddie Remembers Susannah, but only slightly. Why? Because he's been away from Roland's world long wenough to completely forget by that point. Susannah just got there, but in time, I believe she will also forget completely. Throwing the gun away shows that the pull of the Tower is already gone for her. If Eddie were not the same Eddie, then I don't think there would be as immediate of a connection with Susannah as there was there. Just an opinion.

Matt
01-15-2008, 11:22 AM
I totally disagree, the Eddie that Suze met at the end had never been to Rolands world.

They are the same, but not that way

Letti
01-15-2008, 11:23 AM
New Eddie had had dreams with Susannah, that's why he remembered and recognised her immedaitely.
(But I am with the other group - the little one - that says the two Eddies are different.)

jayson
01-15-2008, 11:23 AM
Well, we know that there are multiple versions of folk throughout the worlds and the Eddie and Jake that Susannah aren't the exact same folk as the Eddie and Jake she knew and loved, no, but they're close enough.



Ehhh.... Personaly I think they are the same, because Eddie Remembers Susannah, but only slightly. Why? Because he's been away from Roland's world long wenough to completely forget by that point. Susannah just got there, but in time, I believe she will also forget completely. Throwing the gun away shows that the pull of the Tower is already gone for her. If Eddie were not the same Eddie, then I don't think there would be as immediate of a connection with Susannah as there was there. Just an opinion.

So there we go, we agree on something.

Jean
01-15-2008, 11:33 AM
I totally disagree, the Eddie that Suze met at the end had never been to Rolands world.

They are the same, but not that way
I believe it's "experience" school vs. "unique primary entity" (aka soul) school. I belong to the latter, too.

Jayson: I didn't neglect your argumentation against my theory. I'm getting there.

Matt
01-15-2008, 12:24 PM
I love that!

"unique primary entity"

beautiful.

To The Dark Tower Came
01-22-2008, 07:19 AM
If you look at studies done with twins who've grown up separated from one another, you find interesting things. A lot comes from our environment. More than we like to admit. Add to that the endless multiverse and I think Susannah got what she believed she wanted.

Being fresh off Book 7, there is no reference to her living happily ever after, only that "there was happiness". Meaning that we all suffer and experience joy no matter who we're surrounded by. The new Jake and Eddie I think were products of that level of the Tower, no more no less. Susannah missed them both so terribly that when she passed through the Unfound Door, she went where she believed she wanted to be most. When traveling through that particular door, one pictures the place one wants to go.

I don't think that the new Jake and Eddie were the dead Jake and Eddie made in some soul link fashion. But in an infinite way, Susannah found a way to have what she thought she wanted, and came to them. They were prepared to meet her, too.

I also have to agree with the Susannah leaving not for love, group. The book talks about her having the feeling that her role was done, that she was never meant to partake in the Dark Tower. She loved Roland, and hated him too, I think. So when she was released from his grasp, his wheel, she departed.

Matt
01-22-2008, 07:25 AM
Great perspective! I love hearing from people just finishing the books.

To me, the multi-verses of the Tower are infinite. So that Jake and Eddie were same just alternate reality versions.

Like that Matt that didn't have kids out there somewhere. Miserable because he never did what mattered to him.

jayson
01-22-2008, 07:31 AM
Right, so if they are different, I can't help but think Susannah cried off the Tower for the consolation prize.

Matt
01-22-2008, 07:32 AM
That's one way of looking at it. Either that or she cried off for salvation. :lol:

Which would make her a bit smarter than the man himself.

To The Dark Tower Came
01-22-2008, 07:44 AM
That's one way of looking at it. Either that or she cried off for salvation. :lol:

Which would make her a bit smarter than the man himself.

I wrote this about Susannah's crying off of the Dark Tower in another Susannah-centric thread. Concerning why she left, or rather was compelled to leave:


She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.

Matt
01-22-2008, 07:47 AM
Yep, and I totally agree.

Its nice to see others gaining that perspective on the story.

Darkthoughts
01-22-2008, 01:03 PM
Great posts!

All I have to add, contrary to whats been said, is that I don't think Roland crying off the Tower equates his never reaching and entering it. To me it means that he needs to stop making it his priority in the destructive fashion he has.

...Well, obviously its a bit more involved than that, but thats the basic gist of it...:D

To The Dark Tower Came
01-23-2008, 07:33 AM
Great posts!

All I have to add, contrary to whats been said, is that I don't think Roland crying off the Tower equates his never reaching and entering it. To me it means that he needs to stop making it his priority in the destructive fashion he has.

...Well, obviously its a bit more involved than that, but thats the basic gist of it...:D

I think that crying off the Tower is the end. There's a very interesting piece in the Gunslinger comics (can't remember which issue right atm, but I think it's #2) where Vannay is teaching cosmology and sacred landscape to Roland and other students. Near the end he speaks about why it's actually forbidden to enter the Tower. He says it's because when we do, we can't enter the Tower for anything but selfish reasons, to change ka, or reverse it.

So we have to wonder at Roland's reasoning for entering the Tower. He's seen his whole world washed away by war and decay. Does he want to question Gan/god about why? Does he want to demand things be set right? We don't know for certain, but it isn't altogether altruistic.

The point being that to enter the Tower is to crave something, even without realizing it, mayhap. It's the crying off the Tower and the signaling of the Horn that would mean Roland would no longer need to enter the Tower, and thus be free of it, both materially and figuratively.

zadok
01-23-2008, 10:41 AM
The book talks about her having the feeling that her role was done, that she was never meant to partake in the Dark Tower.

Agreed. This was foreshadowed when she wouldn't join the boys in looking at the Rose in NYC.

zadok
01-23-2008, 10:49 AM
To me, this entire subject ("are they the same") just exposes a huge plot hole. Keystone Earth was supposed to be the "be all end all" - if you died there you can't come back on any level of the Tower. Otherwise, why was saving Stephen King so important? Jake should have been gone forever as a character.

jayson
01-23-2008, 10:56 AM
To me, this entire subject ("are they the same") just exposes a huge plot hole. Keystone Earth was supposed to be the "be all end all" - if you died there you can't come back on any level of the Tower. Otherwise, why was saving Stephen King so important? Jake should have been gone forever as a character.

I wrestled with that one for awhile as well Zadok, but the conclusion I came to was that the whole notion about dying in that world being the "final" death was not something the reader knew for a fact, only what the Tet believed to be the case. Ultimately it was all speculation on their part, so it may very well be possible to die in Keystone Earth and still exist on another level of the Tower. What do you think?

Matt
01-23-2008, 11:24 AM
For me, we only had one "Keystone Jake" ( I kind of think it was the last, but perhaps the first).

Once he died, there is not coming back. "Jakes" from other levels of the tower could die and re appear, but not that Keystone Jake.

So basically, the one at the end was just another version of Jake from the levels of the Tower that were not Keystone.

zadok
01-23-2008, 11:24 AM
To me, this entire subject ("are they the same") just exposes a huge plot hole. Keystone Earth was supposed to be the "be all end all" - if you died there you can't come back on any level of the Tower. Otherwise, why was saving Stephen King so important? Jake should have been gone forever as a character.

I wrestled with that one for awhile as well Zadok, but the conclusion I came to was that the whole notion about dying in that world being the "final" death was not something the reader knew for a fact, only what the Tet believed to be the case. Ultimately it was all speculation on their part, so it may very well be possible to die in Keystone Earth and still exist on another level of the Tower. What do you think?

I don't buy it because King dedicated the entire end of SoS driving the point home. If he died in Keystone earth, the Tower story would never be completed and the Tower would fall. This is just what the CK wanted all along. The whole reason King was hit by the car was because he kept putting off finishing the series in violation of his promise to Roland. The "walk-ins" only came to Kesystone Earth, because that is where their "god" created them. Callahan was shown he was only a character in someone else's story, his earth was not the "true one". Same with Eddie and Jake. To some degree, Brautigan, Danville, Flagg knew it too. There is no scenario even alluded to that would allow an alternate Stephen King on another level of the Tower to finish it. (At the risk of getting reeeeeally off-topic) Gan = God + Man. SK created and sustains the Dark Tower. He dies, the Tower falls.

jayson
01-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Fair enough. I thought that way for a long time too, and often when I re-read it, I wrestle with it again. Put it this way, I agree that saving King had to be a pivotal event to sacrifice Jake for it's accomplishment.

zadok
01-23-2008, 11:41 AM
For me, we only had one "Keystone Jake" ( I kind of think it was the last, but perhaps the first).

Once he died, there is not coming back. "Jakes" from other levels of the tower could die and re appear, but not that Keystone Jake.

So basically, the one at the end was just another version of Jake from the levels of the Tower that were not Keystone.


I don't think there was a Keystone Jake. He was just a character of SK, like all the rest. But the point was, die in Keystone Earth, dead forever on all levels.

zadok
01-23-2008, 11:45 AM
Fair enough. I thought that way for a long time too, and often when I re-read it, I wrestle with it again. Put it this way, I agree that saving King had to be a pivotal event to sacrifice Jake for it's accomplishment.

Right. And that time, he knew there was no "other worlds" to go to.

jayson
01-23-2008, 11:49 AM
you know what zadok, it's starting to bother me again. maybe susannah went insane and it wasn't eddie & jake at all. :lol:

zadok
01-23-2008, 12:00 PM
you know what zadok, it's starting to bother me again. maybe susannah went insane and it wasn't eddie & jake at all. :lol:

Maybe it was Detta and Mia...all 3 together at last! Like the 3 SK's outside the Castle...

:scared:

To The Dark Tower Came
01-23-2008, 12:04 PM
Fair enough. I thought that way for a long time too, and often when I re-read it, I wrestle with it again. Put it this way, I agree that saving King had to be a pivotal event to sacrifice Jake for it's accomplishment.

Yes, because King was unique. As a kas-ka-Gan...or a conduit of the Beam. King wrote all of his books because he was seeing different levels of the Tower as a protector of the Gan Beam.

We have however seen at least 3 Jakes. One who Roland let fall, the second whom the tet draws at the speaking ring, and a third while Jake and Eddie are todash in NY. Since we don't know if any of those Jakes were from Keystone Earth, we just have to speculate.

My guess would be the third Jake. Because when Eddie and Jake are todash, it seems to be on Keystone Earth, because of the Rose. The two "markers" of Keystone Earth are the Rose and Stephen King. We know the Eddie throughout the story was not from Keystone Earth, because when they travel to it, he realizes he's not.

The thing with Keystone (anything) is that time only flowed in a single direction...forward. Meaning when you died there, no matter what world you were from, there was no "do overs", no traveling back to Mid-World and then to Earth of a previous time. So when Jake dies saving King, it's on Keystone Earth, thusly, he cannot be saved by Roland returning earlier.

Darkthoughts
01-23-2008, 01:19 PM
I'm completely in agreement with the Keystone/irreversable death situation, but to me all three Jake's you mentioned above were essentially the same person.
The second Jake is maddened by memories that he is (almost) sure are false, yet when he is drawn by Roland, Eddie and Suze he fully realises that he had experienced this other life on some level/in another when.

I don't mean to imply by that, that he became two people - more that (as I think you also believe?) his previous life is on one level of the Tower, his waystation life was on another and his life with the ka-tet on another yet. So when he was dropped by Roland he flipped onto a similar level where his life was at an earlier point in time - hence his violent deja vu.

You could argue, "how has this life on this other level been occuring if there is only one Jake?" but I think that perhaps a new level is created at such an incidence (as Jake's non Keystone death).
In this way we can all have our own Towers with multiple levels, that blend with the Towers and levels of other people we encounter.

Matt
01-23-2008, 01:34 PM
I like that...a lot. Very well said Lisa

Darkthoughts
01-23-2008, 01:40 PM
Thanks Matt :D

Its another aspect of DT that I love, it seems very similar to our own perceptions of life and levels - whether that be levels of communication, spiritual levels, emotional levels - I think its because of that that we all feel such a bond with King and each other. As has been said, theres some great metaphors in the tale and I love the scope for individual interpretation (if only this were the bible, why, I'd be quite religious :P )

Matt
01-23-2008, 01:45 PM
That is so true it actually hurts in a nice way.

I think the magic of King and one of the reasons I am such a big fan is that he really boils everything down to the human condition. And he is so damn good at it that all types of people from all over the world can identify.

That is a hell of an accomplishment imo.

Darkthoughts
01-23-2008, 01:46 PM
:grouphug:

To The Dark Tower Came
01-23-2008, 04:09 PM
I'm completely in agreement with the Keystone/irreversable death situation, but to me all three Jake's you mentioned above were essentially the same person.
The second Jake is maddened by memories that he is (almost) sure are false, yet when he is drawn by Roland, Eddie and Suze he fully realises that he had experienced this other life on some level/in another when.

I don't mean to imply by that, that he became two people - more that (as I think you also believe?) his previous life is on one level of the Tower, his waystation life was on another and his life with the ka-tet on another yet. So when he was dropped by Roland he flipped onto a similar level where his life was at an earlier point in time - hence his violent deja vu.

You could argue, "how has this life on this other level been occuring if there is only one Jake?" but I think that perhaps a new level is created at such an incidence (as Jake's non Keystone death).
In this way we can all have our own Towers with multiple levels, that blend with the Towers and levels of other people we encounter.

Good points, all.

I think that This could be true, but for the intervention of ka. I believe that the reason Jake #2 had conflicting memories was because Jake was necessary to the outcome of everything. He needed to be the Jake dropped by Roland in order to continue. So, much like the dreams that the brothers Eddie and Jake had (still yet another E and J) to prepare them for Susannah's arrival at the end of book 7.

To me, I view it like the action movie "The One" with Jet Li. If you haven't seen it, it's about a man who travels through alternate dimensions in order to kill alternate versions of himself in order to gain power. I see the Tower's levels much the same way. There may be infinite amounts of me, but different in sometimes subtle, sometimes outrageous ways. The me here, is a Buddhist, with a degree in psychology, while another me might be a farmer with 12 kids, or a prison inmate. All with a connection, yes, mayhap, but not really all the same person.

We happen to see three extremely similar Jakes in the story, but we also saw two very different Sheemi as well. One a mildly slow teleporter, and the other a druggie with a van who almost kills Stephen King.

The beauty of the Tower series to me is the old Star Trek idea of IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination. The same thing that makes being human so great. While we share a common thread of experience (the "human experience") we are all as different as the day is long, I'll set my watch and warrant on it.

Wuducynn
01-24-2008, 09:16 AM
Thanks Matt :D

Its another aspect of DT that I love, it seems very similar to our own perceptions of life and levels - whether that be levels of communication, spiritual levels, emotional levels

Fantastically well put.

Darkthoughts
01-24-2008, 10:37 AM
We happen to see three extremely similar Jakes in the story, but we also saw two very different Sheemi as well. One a mildly slow teleporter, and the other a druggie with a van who almost kills Stephen King.

I've got to run the kids to a school disco in a sec, so I'll come back later and reply in more depth to your whole post...but for now, the above comment has me stumped. Why did you think Brian whathisface was another Sheemie, I might have to go back and reread as I don't recall getting that impression :)

Letti
01-24-2008, 10:53 AM
I love the poll. The two very different answers got almost the same amount of votes.

jayson
01-24-2008, 10:55 AM
so if this were an american election, now the supreme court would decide.

Letti
01-24-2008, 10:58 AM
so if this were an american election, now the supreme court would decide.
Right now, yeah but let's see the future. :)

Wuducynn
01-24-2008, 10:59 AM
I love that I have an option to vote for "I can't vote".

To The Dark Tower Came
01-24-2008, 03:05 PM
I've got to run the kids to a school disco in a sec, so I'll come back later and reply in more depth to your whole post...but for now, the above comment has me stumped. Why did you think Brian whathisface was another Sheemie, I might have to go back and reread as I don't recall getting that impression :)

Because in the book says Bryan Smith looks just like Sheemie (not in those words of course...lol). Also the Concordance 2nd book list him as Sheemie's Twinner under the SK entry.

jayson
01-24-2008, 03:10 PM
Interesting, interesting. So let's take Sheemie & Bryan as twinners. Very intriguing that one's ka was to help save a beam he was forced to try and break, while the other's was to nearly break another beam [or it's representative] and make me cry my eyes out with what happened instead.

HanzouNorak
01-24-2008, 03:30 PM
same people, same personalities, different histories.

or


Calvin there had a family a switched his name back to Toren, and after several generations, Eddie and Jake were reicarnated on the family line, it would make sense of age (Eddie died first, he was the older Toren, Jake died later, he was the younger Toren) however that would not explain Oy, but then again, its only hinted at, not said. The Door brought Suze to the america side in the futrue (or since time is screwy there it could be the current time).

then again, i could be wrong

as for the Bryan/Shemmie reference, it belive it was refering to Bryan as mentaly challenged. (not quite the correct term i think)

To The Dark Tower Came
01-24-2008, 03:58 PM
Interesting, interesting. So let's take Sheemie & Bryan as twinners. Very intriguing that one's ka was to help save a beam he was forced to try and break, while the other's was to nearly break another beam [or it's representative] and make me cry my eyes out with what happened instead.

Yes, I think that was the point. That Sheemie was special (no not that way) on many levels of the Tower, even if he didn't realize it on any of them. Ka is fate, and fate is often full of irony.

mikeccp
01-24-2008, 08:33 PM
I think that they were the same people just starting out on a different level of the tower. They passed there test and were allowed to move on to the next one. Everyone seams to be obsessed with time as a constant foreword progression. Remember that Roland is living the same fixed amount of time over and over. The thing to remember is that every one is being tested and even saving god and all of existence isn't enough to pass if you do it for the wrong reason. Funny how if Roland hadn't let Jake drop they would have all lived.

Darkthoughts
01-25-2008, 03:33 AM
I've got to run the kids to a school disco in a sec, so I'll come back later and reply in more depth to your whole post...but for now, the above comment has me stumped. Why did you think Brian whathisface was another Sheemie, I might have to go back and reread as I don't recall getting that impression :)

Because in the book says Bryan Smith looks just like Sheemie (not in those words of course...lol). Also the Concordance 2nd book list him as Sheemie's Twinner under the SK entry.

Thank you very much for that :)

Matt
01-25-2008, 05:14 AM
I think that they were the same people just starting out on a different level of the tower. They passed there test and were allowed to move on to the next one. Everyone seams to be obsessed with time as a constant foreword progression. Remember that Roland is living the same fixed amount of time over and over. The thing to remember is that every one is being tested and even saving god and all of existence isn't enough to pass if you do it for the wrong reason. Funny how if Roland hadn't let Jake drop they would have all lived.

Interesting perspective. :thumbsup:

Glad to see you posting mikeccp, I'd love to hear more.

To The Dark Tower Came
01-25-2008, 08:09 AM
[quote=mikeccp;96638]I think that they were the same people just starting out on a different level of the tower. They passed there test and were allowed to move on to the next one. Everyone seams to be obsessed with time as a constant foreword progression. Remember that Roland is living the same fixed amount of time over and over. The thing to remember is that every one is being tested and even saving god and all of existence isn't enough to pass if you do it for the wrong reason. Funny how if Roland hadn't let Jake drop they would have all lived.

I already typed out the portion at the end of the DT VII where Roland goes through the last door, and appears to be back at the start of his journey where we readers joined him (and my fingers are still complaining >< ). So I won't do that you all again..heh.

I believe that the others in the book are representative as they relate to Roland. His ka-mates are there for Roland's benefit more than their own. I say this because the books with the lessons Roland is supposed to be taking in, as he interacts with the characters around him, tet and otherwise. It is all because Roland dared entered the Tower during his first adventure to attain it. But because he was not worthy...not a fully actuated person, still needing to confront whatever he believed was at the top of the Tower..he has been sent back again and again (however many times) to redo the journey until he can move past his need to confront the force of ka, or Gan, what-have-you.

I agree that what happens to the others after they die or whatever is up for debate. But I would think it would be unfair for a person dying on one level of the Tower to transmigrate to another level, since we've seen in the books that people can exist on multiple levels of the Tower at the same time, as distinct individuals. But it does seem that ka rewards others as well, as it did with Susannah in her travel to a world where she could be with Jake and Eddie.

Storyslinger
01-28-2008, 12:44 PM
I think the memories of the past life will come in time.

MonteGss
01-28-2008, 09:54 PM
I'm surprised Monte isn't all over this with his "twinner" obsession..

I voted that I can't vote because of my Twinner/Twin obession. This is a great discussion here and my "obsession" is essential when answering this question. :)

LadyHitchhiker
01-29-2008, 12:01 AM
I voted no

Letti
01-29-2008, 12:04 AM
I voted no

Oh yeeeesssssesesessss! And now we have more no votes than yes ones. Yeah. :D

LadyHitchhiker
01-29-2008, 12:07 AM
I'm glad I brought mirth and glee to thee Letti!

Letti
01-29-2008, 12:09 AM
I'm glad I brought mirth and glee to thee Letti!

Whenever you appear you do. :rose:

LadyHitchhiker
01-29-2008, 12:13 AM
Awwwwwww that's exactly how I feel when I see you!!!!! *enormous huggles*

Wuducynn
01-29-2008, 08:36 AM
I voted that I can't vote because of my Twinner/Twin obession. This is a great discussion here and my "obsession" is essential when answering this question. :)

Thats what so mind-bending, "voting" for "I can't vote".

MonteGss
01-29-2008, 08:37 AM
So true. :)

Darkthoughts
04-26-2009, 12:38 PM
Bumping this fantastic thread for newer members, and rereaders.

Please take the time to read the whole thread (and use the multiquote button at will so you can join in :D ), it's got some cracking stuff in it :thumbsup:

Brainslinger
04-26-2009, 05:06 PM
If we're talking DNA--they are exactly the same people. Just different levels of the Tower.


Actually if it's DNA then they wouldn't be would they? They're brothers on this level of the Tower. (Unless they're adoptive brothers of course.)

That being said, I think they're close enough the same. Whether they are different versions on another level of the Tower, or reincarnations of those that died (hence the same soul) I'm not sure, but I think I'd go with the former. I'm not sure how it works though. Do all versions have separate souls, share a soul, etc?

As for Susannah going there for love, well that would be part of it, but she didn't know for sure she would meet them. It think she went as much because she knew she was meant to as anything.

Apologies if I've just repeated stuff others have mentioned, I just replied to a thread and haven't gone all the way through the others yet. (I'm not sure how the multi-quote works by the way. It's set to 'on' now, but it seems just the same as always. I'll check the guidelines.)

pathoftheturtle
04-28-2009, 09:56 AM
You turn Multi on for each post you wish to quote from and then click the Quote button on the last one. Here's part of an earlier exchange to relate to your question "Do all versions have separate souls, share a soul, etc?":


Hmm...I guess I don't think of these twin or twinner yous or mes as such. Consider the possibility that they share the same soul or essence (for those nonreligiously inclined). This is more what I have in mind than genetic potentials. Circumstance and choice determines how much that you is like you.

It's a nice thought. I don't personally buy into the concept, but if you did believe there was an "essence" to living beings than yes, it is possible that this essence could be spread among the multiverse in different facets.

that's precisely what I think happened. It definitely was the same Eddie, Henry or no Henry - and the same Jake. My certainty takes roots in my being religious, of course, and this "substance" for me is soul (as Brice mentioned in another post, too).

Just my own thoughts, but doesn't that kind of cheapen it? It seems to make the individual lives led by the individual Eddie's somewhat meaningless if they are all just extensions of one "essence." No trouble that Susannah lost her Eddie, she can just go to another level of the Tower and get a new one. Again, just my thoughts, but I think it takes away from the uniqueness of the individual.
"Individual Eddies." :orely: My opinion is that the idea of a multiverse in which there are multiple Eddies who are not extentions of one essence takes away from the uniqueness of the individual.

Brainslinger
04-29-2009, 06:25 AM
Thanks pathofturtle.

And I sort of see what you mean about the multiple Eddies, etc. This one certainly seems close enough although without the negativity which defined 'our' Eddie. Some would argue that was a major thing in defining Eddie's personality, and I think in some ways it was, but I'd like to think that an Eddie whose upbringing was less harsh would still retain much of the same essence.

It's interesting that he sort of remembers Susannah too, although from his point of view he never met her. Something he picked up from her Eddie, much like Jake picked up the memories of the Jake who died at Mort's hands? Is this just a collective consciousness thing or a transmigration of souls (if they're separate.)

pathoftheturtle
05-02-2009, 09:42 AM
"I can't vote because..."the wording of none of the options given seems just right to me. I'd definitely answer yes to "Are they the same at all?" but can't really say "Yes, they are absolutely the same people." I think that they are fundamentally the same people, and I would agree that "Yes, they absolutely are the same people," (an arrangement making the "absolutely" into an adverb) but I do agree that there are differences. However, it is more than bodies (genes) and names in my book: I think they are the same on an unconcious level. I think that's what Matt was trying to say
This is different than someone who looks like her, this is her. But I agree RofG, you wouldn't get the same personality at all. ...Personality changes, sure, but when the chips are down, these guys would stand, and be true.
Is this just a collective consciousness thing or a transmigration of souls (if they're separate.)It's a good question. What bugs me is--
Whilst looking for Tower Connections in Insomnia, I came across a passage where Lois asks Clotho and Lachesis where people go when they die. The answer they are given is very pertinent to this discussion; the doctors simultaneously reply,
"Everywhere."
"Other worlds than these."
...
It's not reincarnation, because you are not entirely reborn - you move on .Maybe the souls travel through a collective unconscious. Eddie recognizes Susannah from dreams that he has been having, as well. All of that might be just another result of the mental link they'd all often shown, but I've always felt that the Tower played a role in the reunion, too. An interesting sub-question here might be "Would any alternate Eddie & Jake be good enough, or did it have to be those exact, specific ones?" I'd say that it did: I do tend to think that ALL those that exist would be manifestations of the same essences, but I also believe in ka, and I think she was guided to that precise destination for a reason. I'm not sure, but I'd like to believe that there is a Divine plan in TDT. For a multiverse, it would need to be an incredibly complex one.
On the other hand, Lisa's speculation notwithstanding, maybe this is a form of reincarnation. Their souls could have travelled back in time as well as across dimensions to be reborn in a new Jake and Eddie; perhaps that happens repeatedly, all the time. If everyone who dies appears at a waystation in some world, you'd think we'd have a lot more reports of walk-ins.
I'm starting to believe that death in TDT deserves it's own thread.

Speaking of a Divine plan, this topic connects to some others:

...I don't think Roland crying off the Tower equates his never reaching and entering it. To me it means that he needs to stop making it his priority in the destructive fashion he has. ...<_< I don't care for that. You may well be right that he needs to stop making it his priority in the destructive fashion he has, but I'd rather that we just say that. Someone else could also legitimately argue, IMO, that "Roland needs to realize that climbing the Tower is not the way to his true goals." However, being able to say "Roland can cry off the Tower without crying off the Tower." just seems much too Orwellian to me.

...we have to wonder at Roland's reasoning for entering the Tower. He's seen his whole world washed away by war and decay. Does he want to question Gan/god about why? Does he want to demand things be set right? We don't know for certain, but it isn't altogether altruistic.
...I don't get it. I agree that we don't know for certain, but if Roland wants what you speculated in that paragraph, then how is that not altruistic? Remember the wisdom of Solomon:
"And God said to Solomon: 'Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked riches or wealth or honor or the life of your enemies, nor have you asked for long life -- but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself, that you may judge My people over whom I have made you king -- wisdom and knowledge are granted to you; and I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings have had who have been before you, nor shall any after you have the like.'"
-- Second Chronicles 1:11-12

I'm not trying to drail the thread, though. I want to relate Roland's quest back to this debate's implications.
Okay.
So we just live and the soul we have and ka do everything? Or how does it work?
If I am the same everywhere it doesn't matter or make any difference if I am an alcoholic or if I am a nun... what's life about?Not an easy one to answer off the top of my head, but with time and help from friends, we'll see what we can do. :)

Now you do sound like a ka-guy, Jean. ...It's funny that you said that, since the points you've been supporting here have traditionally been used as disproofs of free will--

...we are what life or fate or I don't know what shaped us to be. ...

I think that our wills, our souls, ka, experience, God, and the devil are all part of the big picture. Life shapes us and we shape life, and what's the difference? It's good to try to understand the nuts and bolts, and I'm convinced that it's not really as paradoxical as it seems, but on one level, yes:
" I believe in .....EVERYTHING! "

Melike
05-02-2009, 11:23 AM
To me they are totally different people. Foreigners.

We are not only made of genes or essence, the same potential to change into same way, soul, body, or experiences, or our wounds, happinesses. We are all of them.

If one of those changes even a little, we are not the same person anymore.

We can't copy-paste or delete these.

candy
05-02-2009, 12:02 PM
yeah!!! i love i when posts get bumped. i always wonder if peeps thats posted have changed their view point?

anyhoo, i think it was Matt that mentioned in an earlier post that he would go through a door for dora (i am too lazy too hunt for the quote sorry)
I personally could not and would not go through the door for another mr c.

we went through some damn hard times before we got together and we went through some shit when we got together too, and this both made us as people and made us as a couple, and i would find it unbearable to be with a man that
a) had not lived through that
and b) even worse knew nothing of it

Because we are made up of what we are and what we have been through more then genes etc

so, my vote was no, they are not the same people... eddie and jake where brothers in new version so neither would not have had the defining moments in their life that made them our eddie and jake. and as for Oy apparantley he came back as a golden retriever or something like:wtf:

Melike
05-02-2009, 12:29 PM
:wtf:

Letti
05-02-2009, 12:46 PM
To me they are totally different people. Foreigners.

I couldn't agree more.

jayson
05-02-2009, 01:08 PM
we went through some damn hard times before we got together and we went through some shit when we got together too, and this both made us as people and made us as a couple, and i would find it unbearable to be with a man that
a) had not lived through that
and b) even worse knew nothing of it

Because we are made up of what we are and what we have been through more then genes etc

Well said Candy. :clap:
This is precisely what I meant as well.
A different Mrs R_of_G could be like her in many many ways, but without the experiences she's had both with and without me, she wouldn't be the same person.

obscurejude
05-02-2009, 01:21 PM
we went through some damn hard times before we got together and we went through some shit when we got together too, and this both made us as people and made us as a couple, and i would find it unbearable to be with a man that
a) had not lived through that
and b) even worse knew nothing of it

Because we are made up of what we are and what we have been through more then genes etc

Well said Candy. :clap:
This is precisely what I meant as well.
A different Mrs R_of_G could be like her in many many ways, but without the experiences she's had both with and without me, she wouldn't be the same person.

Its a good point, but its partially countered by the fact that Susannah immediately began losing all her memories of Roland's world. Would all of you say that Altzheimer patients are the same people of their life experiences when they can't remember their own family members or day to day activities? The difference with Suze is that she's capable of making new memories that will last with people that she has some connection to beyond circumstance.

Besides, its clearly what the Tower wanted. She didn't ask for the dreams or for the Tower to not call her name. Many insist that this whole story is about Roland's obsession but that's not the case. Its not like making some objective choice about what to eat for breakfast. Whatever passes for divinity in Roland's world was screaming his name and that's why childe Roland came. Its also why Susannah ended up in an alternate universe.

candy
05-02-2009, 01:29 PM
but there is also free will, and i know that ka is a wheel and blah de blah,

but the fact is suzannah chooses to go through the door, and i understand the altzhiemer reference, and yes i would still love mr c if he forgot me and was no longer mr c because the essence of him would be there. but i still say i could not choose to meet a stranger that looked like him.

in my opinion, the tower called to her to give her 'compensation' for what she had lost knowing she would never reach the tower. but i agree with the previous posts that if it was me, on a purely personal level mind, i would prefer the clearing at the end of the path to meet MY eddie, jake and oy

obscurejude
05-02-2009, 01:36 PM
"Free Will" is a contradiction of terms. We always choose the strongest impulse of our nature. People always act like will isn't a constituancy of agency, that its neutral and alone in its sphere of operation.

If your will wasn't pulled by something, you'd make no decisions whatsoever. Instead of corn flakes or oatmeal, you'd starve if you had no preference. We are slaves who masquerade as freely autonomous. No one is as free as modernity would make us think we are. We don't choose our race, our family, our country etc... If you want to "freely" choose to be a king or prince you're inhibited by the fact you aren't royal blood etc... And the heart wants what it wants. Claiming that Susannah had free will is overlooking the humongous contingencies at work within everything leading up to that decision.

barneyrfd
05-02-2009, 06:53 PM
They are most definitely NOT the same!!

The simple proof is that when Susannah was trying to get Oy to come with her through the door he was going to go until she said "...with no idea at all"... "There are other worlds than these."

Oy stopped, sat down and refused to go through the door choosing to stay with Roland. Oy was highly intuitively and obviously knew that the real Jake and Eddie, those of the ka-tet of 19 were gone. So his beloved Jake and Eddie could not be through the door.

obscurejude
05-02-2009, 06:56 PM
:rolleyes:

Or Oy was tempted but decided to stay with Roland because it was Jake's last request of him.

But welcome to the site Barney. :)

barneyrfd
05-02-2009, 10:10 PM
Thanks for the welcome.

Could be Oy was following Jake's last request but if Oy thought for a second that HIS Jake was still alive he would likely have chosen the door. Oy knew there was only one real "ake" and he was gone.

obscurejude
05-02-2009, 10:26 PM
I think you underestimate Oy. He was duty bound to Roland and your statement takes away from his stand with Mordred.

Jean
05-02-2009, 10:49 PM
I think you underestimate Oy. He was duty bound to Roland and your statement takes away from his stand with Mordred.
hear, hear

Brice
05-03-2009, 05:31 AM
we went through some damn hard times before we got together and we went through some shit when we got together too, and this both made us as people and made us as a couple, and i would find it unbearable to be with a man that
a) had not lived through that
and b) even worse knew nothing of it

Because we are made up of what we are and what we have been through more then genes etc

Well said Candy. :clap:
This is precisely what I meant as well.
A different Mrs R_of_G could be like her in many many ways, but without the experiences she's had both with and without me, she wouldn't be the same person.

That depends on whether you think experience makes you who you are or whether who you are determines your experiences.

Melike
05-03-2009, 06:31 AM
we went through some damn hard times before we got together and we went through some shit when we got together too, and this both made us as people and made us as a couple, and i would find it unbearable to be with a man that
a) had not lived through that
and b) even worse knew nothing of it

Because we are made up of what we are and what we have been through more then genes etc

Well said Candy. :clap:
This is precisely what I meant as well.
A different Mrs R_of_G could be like her in many many ways, but without the experiences she's had both with and without me, she wouldn't be the same person.

That depends on whether you think experience makes you who you are or whether who you are determines your experiences.

Both of them.
http://www.meghalomania.com/wp-content/themes/clouds/images/posts/drawing_hands.jpg
Cliche but true.
So if you delete one of them, it changes everything.

Brice
05-03-2009, 06:43 AM
:thumbsup: ...both to your point and to the Escher. :D

barneyrfd
05-03-2009, 08:04 AM
I am in no way underestimating or taking away from Oy! He was one brave, loyal and faithful Bumbler, as much a part of the ka-tet as anyone!

His last stand/sacrifice for Roland was perhaps THE bravest and most faithful act in the entire saga tied with Jake throwing himself in front of the van to save Stephen King.

Oy had the same duty to Roland that the others of the tet did and he knew it well.

Roland actually released Oy from his duty by giving Oy a choice of going through the door with Susannah or not and Oy chose to stay with Roland. Perhaps out of duty but that choice was made easier because he knew HIS Jake was not on the other side of the door.

jayson
05-03-2009, 08:12 AM
That depends on whether you think experience makes you who you are or whether who you are determines your experiences.

Of course, I don't know that we're ever going to find a definitive answer to your question Brice, and I am certain we're never going to find unanimously agreed upon one, but personally, I hold that existence precedes essence.

"...man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world – and defines himself afterwards." - Jean Paul Sartre, "Existentialism is a Humanism"

As for Ryan's question about an Altzheimer's patient, it's an interesting turn on this issue. My initial thoughts are the altzheimer's patient is the same person. They still have those memories even if they can no longer access them. They still had those experiences even if they can no longer recall them. Basically, they are who they are because of what they did all along the line to that point. That they cannot remember it makes it more difficult to interact with that person as had been done previously, and by this logic makes them a somewhat different person moving forward than they'd have been without the Altzheimers. However, I find them to still be more the same person they were then I would two similar looking people from different worlds without the same shared experiences. To me, those are basically clones.

candy
05-03-2009, 08:15 AM
i concur
:thumbsup:

John_and_Yoko
05-03-2009, 08:34 AM
I clicked "I can't vote because" my option isn't on there.

Closest to it is "no," but my option includes "no, their genes aren't the same." How could they be if the two are brothers now, with a Dutch last name? Unless maybe both were adopted by someone with that last name, but I don't remember reading anything like that....

And call me a stickler but I'd prefer to have that specifically mentioned than simply speculate in order to justify the idea that they have the same genes as Eddie Dean and Jake Chambers.

Besides, we know OY wouldn't have the same genes....

obscurejude
05-03-2009, 03:38 PM
Of course, I don't know that we're ever going to find a definitive answer to your question Brice, and I am certain we're never going to find unanimously agreed upon one, but personally, I hold that existence precedes essence.

"...man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world – and defines himself afterwards." - Jean Paul Sartre, "Existentialism is a Humanism"

They still have those memories even if they can no longer access them. They still had those experiences even if they can no longer recall them. Basically, they are who they are because of what they did all along the line to that point.

How does one possess memories if they can no longer access them? That's the tragedy of Altzheimers. The patient is robbed of the experience of "owning" their death by dying in a way consistent with the actions leading up to their end. If they were the same person, then the argument could be made that they wouldn't be dying in a home surrounded by strangers. I'm recalling Aristotle here if anyone is keeping track.



However, I find them to still be more the same person they were then I would two similar looking people from different worlds without the same shared experiences. To me, those are basically clones.

They have the shared experiences of the dreams. The alternate Eddie was even getting worried that he was going crazy because of their persistence. Again, I re iterate, this isn't a question about Susannah's free will. If the Tower represents the axis, then one must assume that if it wants them to be together there must be more to it than cloning and the bleak hope that some circumstantial goodness will ensue because they made it work in some alternate universe before. Dreams are important within the context of the series and illustrate providence even in the midst of a world moving on. I don't understand why nobody thinks its significant.

candy
05-04-2009, 01:33 AM
They have the shared experiences of the dreams. The alternate Eddie was even getting worried that he was going crazy because of their persistence. Again, I re iterate, this isn't a question about Susannah's free will. If the Tower represents the axis, then one must assume that if it wants them to be together there must be more to it than cloning and the bleak hope that some circumstantial goodness will ensue because they made it work in some alternate universe before. Dreams are important within the context of the series and illustrate providence even in the midst of a world moving on. I don't understand why nobody thinks its significant.[/quote]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

first :grouphug:
now -
its not that i dont think its significant, and i agree that the future of eddie and suzannah is what the tower wants, whether as a reward for suzzanah helping to save it or because its part of the towers plan, and i agree that they will make it work, because of the dreams new eddie and new jake(to be known as NE and NJ) where waiting for suzannah and knew her when she appeared. suzannah begins to forget the whole mid world adventure and they all live happily ever after.

all the above is fine .............. but (didnt you just know there was a but coming) i still say NE and NJ are not the same people as gunlinger eddie and gun slinger jake. i take nothing away from suzannah wanting to live a normal life with a version of her beloved.

but thats all they are versions of Eddie and Jake, not the gunslingers that she knew and loved

- and original candy cant get multi quote thing to work - sorry

obscurejude
05-04-2009, 01:51 AM
Though the choices for the poll remain yes or no, Letti adds in the title "at all." That' s part of where I'm coming from, and for the record, I voted "no."

Honestly Candy, I think me and Jayson (R of G) were sort of arguing some side points as well as you and I in regards to Susannah choices in the matter. Some of the lines of logic that I've expressed can also be found in Jayson's thread concerning why Susannah's ending was so different from the rest of the tet.

Its all interesting, but I must insist on stopping for the moment because its very late and I must retire.

Thank you for the conversation, though. :couple:

Brice
05-04-2009, 04:55 AM
That depends on whether you think experience makes you who you are or whether who you are determines your experiences.

Of course, I don't know that we're ever going to find a definitive answer to your question Brice, and I am certain we're never going to find unanimously agreed upon one, but personally, I hold that existence precedes essence.

"...man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world and defines himself afterwards." - Jean Paul Sartre, "Existentialism is a Humanism"



I think they're simultaneous. Anyhow, the fact that the question has no definitive answer was my point in itself though. Basically what I am getting at is it's a choice between (after the one you love is gone) having the memories and not having the memories, but having that astronomical chance that it is the same person in that other world. I think as I see it now, well maybe Susannah's choice wasn't a very easy one

pathoftheturtle
05-04-2009, 06:06 AM
... We are slaves who masquerade as freely autonomous. ... If you want to "freely" choose to be a king or prince you're inhibited by the fact you aren't royal blood etc... Claiming that Susannah had free will is overlooking the humongous contingencies at work within everything leading up to that decision.Well, in that case you could conceivably build up an army of conquest and start your own country, but I do understand your point. If we define "free will" as absolute power, then I think it's obvious that no human has it. From a higher perspective, her freedom could be part and parcel in her relationship to all of those contingencies.
...the future of eddie and suzannah is what the tower wants, whether as a reward for suzzanah helping to save it or because its part of the towers plan... Or both.
...new eddie and new jake(to be known as NE and NJ) ...Good idea! I think I'll start to use those abbreviations, too. :)

Let's try this: Is Roland the same at all?
Is the Roland that we see in the desert on the last page the same man that we'd been reading about through the rest of the series? He has lost his memories, and a detail of his past has changed -- he picked up the horn. Does this make him an entirely different person?
If not, then what if two things had changed... imagine if he then had the horn and also he had lost his grow bag. Does that make him someone else?
If not, what if it were three changes?
Five?
Twenty-Five? At what point exactly does he stop being Roland?

obscurejude
05-04-2009, 11:54 AM
Excellent proposition Mike. :thumbsup:

I think that's at the heart of this debate, but I'm going to think about it some more before answering in detail.

jayson
05-04-2009, 01:33 PM
Let's try this: Is Roland the same at all?
Is the Roland that we see in the desert on the last page the same man that we'd been reading about through the rest of the series? He has lost his memories, and a detail of his past has changed -- he picked up the horn. Does this make him an entirely different person?
If not, then what if two things had changed... imagine if he then had the horn and also he had lost his grow bag. Does that make him someone else?
If not, what if it were three changes?
Five?
Twenty-Five? At what point exactly does he stop being Roland?

Very interesting indeed. Of course, we know that Roland has not lost all his memories. He still remembers Gilead. He remembers his childhood. He remembers his training (or he wouldn't last very long). Since King was actually quite vague about what actually happens to Roland when he loops it's hard to know what percentage of his memory is intact and what portion isn't.
Is it just the memory from the looping point forward that's gone?
Does it always start in the desert?
All those questions we ask in the loop-related threads play in here as well.
I would say that you are on to something though Mike. Is he the exact same person? No, probably not by the strictest definition. He does seem to have enough of whatever it is that we can call his essential Roland-ness still though.

Oh, and Ryan, I am still thinking on the Altzheimer's question you raised. I promise to return to it as soon as I come to some kind of conclusion. It's a great question.

Jean
05-04-2009, 11:09 PM
Let's try this: Is Roland the same at all?
Is the Roland that we see in the desert on the last page the same man that we'd been reading about through the rest of the series? He has lost his memories, and a detail of his past has changed -- he picked up the horn. Does this make him an entirely different person?
If not, then what if two things had changed... imagine if he then had the horn and also he had lost his grow bag. Does that make him someone else?
If not, what if it were three changes?
Five?
Twenty-Five? At what point exactly does he stop being Roland?
As usual, excellently put!
You know my answer, of course - he never does; individual soul precedes experience.

AllIsNineteen
05-16-2009, 02:30 PM
I think they're the same people in principle. Like, they didn't have the same experiences, but given a similar situation, they'd react in the same way. Does that make any sense? I don't think any of us are happy with the way that this turned out, I loved having Jake as an experienced gunslinger, but even without it, I'm glad they found life in another dimension.

Spawn
07-17-2009, 01:14 PM
I do believe that they are the absolutely the same people. Yes, yes... I know, Jake died in the Keystone world and that there is no second chances from that.
But isn't Gan God? If he has the power to do what he did to Roland in the end of the series, I think (or I want to believe, because I love the characters so much) that he can also "resucite" the originals Jake and Eddie ad just put them in another level.

We have to remember here that even that Eddie, Sussanah and Jake were chosen against their will, they fought for the White and even died for it.
I think the end is the way of Gan to thank them for what they did, simple as that.

Greg860
11-16-2009, 02:45 PM
throughout the series SK demonstrated that there are many ways to travel between worlds, death being only one of them. i agree with obscurejude. susannah, who had not died, began to lose her memory. (roland instantly lost his when he went through the door and he arguably has never died.) imo, eddie and jake are ka-tet and therefore family. and in death as they lost memory of their previous life when they entered the new world but where allowed to keep the memory of being family (therefore the last name). susannah will certainly end up like them.

i voted, almost unfortunately, that they are in fact both the same exact people and liken it to the movie "heaven can wait". the character is told he will live on in someone elses body when that body is scheduled to die; the only catch is he goes on living that persons life without any previous memory of his own....

....as a dark tower reader would agree how can you remain the same person without any of your memories. so while i agree they are the same people they all lose something essential, susannah and roland included.

Sickrose
11-17-2009, 05:25 AM
It's an interesting question. I think they are a different Eddie and Jake and I guess it comes down to Nature v Nurture and where you stand on that. I think elements of Eddie and Jake are the same and I guess they would still have the 'Deep Steel' that Roland notes but the environmental factors are different and this would have had an affect.

why did Susannah have the dreams then I wonder. Roland talks to Eddie of how dreams are sometimes messages from different levels of the tower. Maybe it was telling her she had to go.

pathoftheturtle
11-17-2009, 01:43 PM
... Yes, yes... I know, Jake died in the Keystone world and that there is no second chances from that. ...One of the ideas from the TDT books which I like and respect least. Gratingly obvious plot device to get around the power of time-travel to spoil dramatic tension. I wish that I could see it as somehow more meaningful than that, but I don't. What makes the "Keystone" different? If King is saying that after all real death is beyond escape, then aren't all of the rest of these imaginings only pointless and pitiful self-delusion?

Rolandofmosheim
06-22-2012, 04:03 AM
I know its an old thread however my wife refuses to read the series and insists I am obessed (I say Thankya) anyway, I don't think that the Jake roland first meets is the same jake the gunslinger, not the first boy he met and grew to love, even though he let him drop, so I think with susannah it wasn't close enough, I think that just as Mordred could recall his victims memories after eating them, experiances in midworld transcend all levels of the tower, just a thought

stkmw02
06-22-2012, 08:15 AM
*DISCLAIMER: I am functioning on 3 hours sleep and my Fornit has taken over.

Boy am I glad you dug this thread up! I just read through all the posts so I could get a good feel for where everyone was on this... and it is just the perfect way for me to spend my morning! Now, in short, I can say that they are the same. I will expand on that... very much so... for anyone who cares to read the book below:

First, I need to note that my reasoning is based on a very interesting belief system. I was baptized Catholic, confirmed Lutheran, but raised to follow Comanche and Navajo practices as well. I have a bastardized version if God in my heart, because all the things I have learned and experienced don't fit the picture most people show me. My God is very much an author. He creates... he writes the life stories of everyone. Some are short stories, barely born and gone. Some are novellas or novels or series... Some are well written and worth the read, while others are filler or go half-read. Like many other authors, King included, God weaves his stories together... because, like King, He isn't really writing many individual stories but rather one all encompassing tale of everything. I believe in reincarnation and guiding spirits. I believe in fate. I believe that everything happens for a reason. I believe in true love. I believe in ka-tet.

I'll say first the simplest answer to the question of is Eddie the same that Susannah loved. The simplest answer is, even if he is not... she knows true love and once you know it, you follow it. Now, the more complicated answer. My husband and I crossed paths many more times than we can imagine. For four years, we each spent every Saturday morning in the same coffee shop and library but never met. Years before that we attended events in the same place at the same time. We are still discovering interesting connections between our lives. The first time we "met" we didn't speak to each other or really meet, but he later recalled me and I him. I was an extra in a movie and he was filming behind the scenes. He was directly behind me, bumping into me as he interviewed another actor. On set, I had a photo of Mick Garris autographed. The photo was provided by my now husband. I met someone on set who went to college with me, we were previously not friends. He was more involved with the film than I was, but invited me to the premiere months later. My husband and I were both at the showing and the after party, but never met, despite it being a very small crew. A year later, we "met" again on another movie set - and I am NOT in the movie business, I ended up involved out of coincidence/fate - and again did not exchange names though we spoke. A year later, he sent me a friend request on MySpace to promote his film, simply because I was a friend of mutual friend. It was on MySpace that we started to talk and agreed to attend a horror convention together to promote. That first trip was not a date, but we basically planned our wedding on the way home... and the first official date, I knew I would marry him. I knew he was my one. If something were to happen to him, I would know that true love exists because I feel it every moment of my life now. Knowing that the door would lead me to another time, another world where another him might be... that would be enough for me to go. I wouldn't be looking for him in terms of any physical sense, not trying to find someone with the same features or experiences... but that energy, that "soul" that lets me know it's perfect for mine, if it was out there I would find it or I would be reborn a thousand times over trying.

Since I believe I was meant to find him in this life, I believe I will be meant to find him in others.

The loss of memory might prevent me from knowing that I had true love, from remembering the feel of it... but I'll reference a few comments from jayson here. First, Roland's "looping" and how it may reset his memory. I think of this as a sort of return to checkpoint scenario. He goes back to a point in time and begins again from there. He has no memory of what has happened already after that point, but the memories from before that point are unchanged. He can live a different life from that point on, but the foundation of his being is the same. He doesn't need the memories of what he has done, because he's doing it for the "first time" again. However... I see this again from the author God standpoint. He has written a paragraph in the life of Roland. Six sentences in, he wants to go back.. he erases three sentences. As he rewrites these words, changing them slightly - pick up a horn here, use a different synonym there - the original words are still there, a ghost of what was can be seen under the newly printed words. So, Roland walks on with that first/second/third trip faded but still there... making changes that still follow that beam. jayson also noted how Alzheimer's patients have memories they can't access. This statement couldn't ring truer for me. I have always thought of my mind as a giant library (Dreamcatcher?) where unlimited information is stored. I didn't always intend to be a librarian, I wanted to be a psychologist... but then I thought, "For me, it's the same thing!" I just put things in order and cross-reference etc. and it's as good as being a therapist. Anyway, I imagine that not being able to access memories is the same as not being able to access materials in the library. They are there, taking up space, but the contents are not known. However, where there is a library there is a card catalog... not a new digital one, but the large files. For Alzheimer's patients, they don't remember the books they have or how they relate or what they mean in terms of the larger collection of works. But, studies have shown that recall of lost memories/past lives/ etc. can be achieved through systematic thinking. (Of course some also say these memories are fabricated) Basically, you go to that big file cabinet and you search for things you do know... things you do remember. Then you branch off of that based on similar keywords and tags. It is a long and difficult process because no Google Search does it for you. This is why Alzheimer's patients tend to display similar traits during their bad periods. If a patient reverts to memories from 15 years old, they will usually revert to the same type of memories whenever they lapse. One study tracked a single patient to map the progression of memory loss and I recall that individual latched on to the idea of pets. The man was first forgetful, thinking his dead dog was still alive. As his condition worsened, he began seeking dogs from his childhood. As if - LOST reference - dogs were his constant and he was scrambling to hold on to the idea for some consistency. SO, it is my belief that those memories are not gone... and even though they are inaccessible, they are on the shelves between other books that might be accessible... they are still shaping the library somehow, touching other memories and making an impact somehow. It's all a matter of doing the research to access them.

On to the next rant, same as the last. The idea of past lives fits in here, as the "mind" is not the same as a brain. So, the shelves do not get wiped clean when one life ends and another begins... rather, the old volumes get shifted, some perhaps to an archive, as new volumes are added. There are memories of past lives stored there... and I think we sometimes stumble upon them when the world is thin. In our dreams - which is the case in DT - or in cases of deja vu... I would describe it like this: You were read a book as a child and many many years later, while researching some unrelated topic you stumble upon a familiar line of prose that you swear you've read before but can't place it. You lived a life and many many lives later, while completing a task you feel that you have done this before. Back to our Author God, he has written your story... but is now revising it.

On to the next! To The Dark Tower Came discussed the idea of the Keystone and no do-overs. Here is my take on that, based on memories and past lives and true love. We know there are many worlds and that time isn't quite one-direction. Though you always move forward in time (not backwards) you can sort of move sideways. Lets look at it this way. We have an original world were a person starts. This person lives and dies. That person is then reborn in another world, but that world's time is staggered. So, while the person (if he could remember) would feel as if this second life is AFTER his first, it may in time be BEFORE he was first born. (Yes, I do believe you can be your own grandpa.) In a sense, you can be living multiple lives simultaneously in different worlds and times, but they all started as the same original life (which has ended, but is never ending...) Example: I was born in 1986 in this world. Let us say I die in 2086 (I'm optimistic). I am reborn in 1972 in world B. In 1986 in world B I find a thin spot and travel to this world, where I am being born. That is my first life starting, although my second life is already in progress. This is enough to drive people crazy! SO the Keystone would be a "constant" somewhat like the Alzheimer dogs... If you die in the Keystone, you do not get reborn. However, lets say it is 1992 and the second life me from world B dies in the Keystone. The original me from this world is still alive and, could I not then be reborn? UNLESS I had never been reborn... I was an original dying in the Keystone with no hope of rebirth. My idea is that there are people who are never reborn... and this is because of Native American legends I have been told.

When a person dies, their spirit is given a choice. They can be reborn into a life, but will not have their memories or their loved ones or anything. If they choose this option over and over and over, they are eventually "rewarded" be being reborn into their own original body again or into a body with a closer connection to their original. (This is where the other time and other worlds fits well.) So, before my grandfather died my brother born and they are very very much alike. So much so that my grandfather said, "If I wasn't alive, I'd think I'd been reincarnated!" But perhaps he WAS. Perhaps in another world and another time he died and was reborn into this world just in time to see himself. (Now I don't believe THAT exactly, but the theory of it in general.) SO most people choose this option as a chance to live infinitely. The second option is to be reborn as something else. BUT once you choose that option, you will never know what you can be when you are reborn. You may never be the same thing twice - a dog, a bird, an ant - who knows? This is often connected to legends as a punishment, since the "spirit" DOES keep the memories they have. Can you imagine being reborn for the millionth time, as fly with only 24 hours to live and in that time you are FULL of memories of every life before? The third option is to not be reborn at all. This is where "ghosts" come in to play. The beings give up their chance at life, get to keep all their memories, and give to exist forever with no boundaries. They can access all worlds, all times, whenever they like. They can stay with their loved ones and watch them grow, they can even try to communicate and guide. (Sweat lodges and hallucinogens come into play on the part of the living) SO, lets say that the legend is partly true. These are the options, but we cannot choose.. God chooses for us. He says, "That Stephen King, I was him to do ONE BIG thing in one life instead of a bunch of little things in many lives. He's going to live his life to do this thing and then he's going to be a guiding spirit." God creates King with that plan... in Keystone so that he will never be reborn.

Second to last, thanks to Darkthoughts for noting the Insomnia connections. See, I read Insomnia before any other King book. And I loved it. And I was all, "This totally makes sense to me." So I was thrilled to discover that all the stories King writes are one big story. Best. Ever. And this is exactly what I thought when I read the lines... where do we go when we die? Everywhere. Other worlds than these. Everywhere, like the guiding spirits. Other worlds than these, like the reborn. I had to tell my great great grandmother, who gave me a Comanche name and told my mother who I would be before I was born. I read her that section and she said, "Other worlds than this?" And I corrected her: these. To me it was obvious, but to her it was THIS world and others. An author doesn't just write one draft, he writes many... and sometimes each draft turns into its own story, its own world.

Finally, I have a giant story that I will someday write... because it's what I'm here for, I think. I do not believe all of what I am about to say, but in questioning it I may actually be confirming it. Back to the great great grandmother Comanche. She married a Navajo, which was a big deal at the time. They had children, who had children, who had children... all very young. When my mom got pregnant with me, unintentionally, the great great grandmother (ironically given the Christian name Mary by Moravian missionaries) told her it would of course be a girl... because that's how it was. Mary was the oldest child and a girl, he daughter the oldest and a girl and so on... so I would be too. And Mary there claimed that her tea leaves told her to name me, because I was going to be something worth taking naming credits for. She said that I would be born "under the veil" which means I would have something covering my face at birth. She said I would have eyes like the sky and the earth. She said I was a pretty big deal in the scheme of things. Now, my mom thought Mary was old and crazy, especially since Mary chose to speak more unintelligible Comanche than English and clearly thought eyes could be both blue and brown. My mom also thought Mary might be telling her these things to prevent a 17 year old Catholic School senior with straight As and a bright future from getting rid of me, either prior to or after birth. In any case, she agreed to let Mary name me. Mary thought on it and said she had to consult the spirits. Eventually, she said Nansuyaket Tabetoi. My mom was not thrilled. She wanted an English name for me. So Mary says, "It means a new beginning, a clean start." And so Krystle-Dawn it is! Now, I don't know for sure if Mary was insane or not. But for 14 years of my life this old lady (who looked like the crypt keeper) insisted that I was supposed to bring tribes together and speak with the dead and be a storyteller. I haven't signed any peace treaties or conversed with any ghosts, but that storyteller part is coming along nicely. Like I said, I don't believe all of this. But... I've tried to find out if it's true. I believe in fate and destiny. But I wonder... is it my destiny to be a new beginning, or will I be a new beginning because I think it's my destiny?

Which brings us back to this: Eddie and Jake are the same people, although they are different in this world. Susannah had to go to them. They either have a destiny that is connecting them through dreams and rebirths and worlds... or Susannah believes they do, which creates a "destiny" by the sheer act of attempting to follow one; a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the key to all of this? Oy. If you read that long-winded part, you might guess what choice Oy made when he died the first time...

pathoftheturtle
07-14-2012, 08:26 AM
...we cannot choose.. God chooses for us. He says, "That Stephen King, I was him to do ONE BIG thing in one life instead of a bunch of little things in many lives. ..."
If you just wanted to say that God just "wanted" SK to do that, then I guess you must have made a mistake. But maybe that was a mistake that God just wanted you to make.
If a spirit can travel back in time to be reincarnated, if one spirit can inhabit two or more lives in the same moment, then how many spirit(s) are there, altogether, in this one present moment?
We cannot choose. God chooses for us. He says, "That Stephen King, I WAS him to do ONE BIG thing in one life instead of a bunch of little things in many lives. I'm going to live this life to do this thing and then he's going to be a guiding spirit." That is called pantheism.

stkmw02
07-14-2012, 04:49 PM
interesting... it was an error, should have said "want".... but I like the way it could be interpreted.

mystima
07-14-2012, 05:43 PM
This reminds me of a movie called The One starring Jet Li. The main character is married and the protagonist kills his wife and he follows him into the next parallel universe to catch him. In the next universe he meets his "wife" and falls for her there. She is not the same person but he still loves her because she is who she is. This is also true for Susannah. It may be that they didn't have the same life as the previous Eddie or Jake but they are to her essentially the same people. And I found this: Stephen King hints that Oy will be found in the same universe that Susannah travels to and will be in some form of a dog with "odd, gold-ringed eyes and a bark that eerily resembles human speech."

pathoftheturtle
07-16-2012, 06:11 PM
interesting... it was an error, should have said "want".... but I like the way it could be interpreted.I mean, if you believe in fate, all errors would be relative anyway, right?

stkmw02
07-17-2012, 06:42 AM
Yes, errors happen for a reason. Unintended interpretations are no less valid than those I hoped to convey.

mystima
07-19-2012, 09:44 PM
This reminds me of a movie called The One starring Jet Li. The main character is married and the protagonist kills his wife and he follows him into the next parallel universe to catch him. In the next universe he meets his "wife" and falls for her there. She is not the same person but he still loves her because she is who she is. This is also true for Susannah. It may be that they didn't have the same life as the previous Eddie or Jake but they are to her essentially the same people. And I found this: Stephen King hints that Oy will be found in the same universe that Susannah travels to and will be in some form of a dog with "odd, gold-ringed eyes and a bark that eerily resembles human speech."

that which is underlined is supposed to be antagonist not protagonist.....my bad

baggyg
07-22-2015, 04:26 AM
I have just completed the series and overall was quite happy with the ending. I see a lot of people didn't like that Susannah went off to another version of the world, and ultimately whether Jake / Eddie is same (whatever "the Same" can mean in that situation). I think in many ways I had to remind myself that Stephen King isn't a SciFi writer. I was not expecting his final conclusion to make sense within our own understanding of reality. A multiverse theory is certainly a real struggle to explain from a religious standpoint. If one were to believe in a soul (which I don't) how would that soul be divided among different versions of the same people? IMO SK has given us reasonable evidence here to accept the fate in terms of the context of the books. Let us not forget that by the same argument of whether final Jake is the same as mid-world Jake is also the same as asking if the 1st version of Jake is the same as well. I think by spending time with him since DT3 most of us would probably accept that he is, at least in a literary fashion.

From my point of view it comes down to consciousness, as many of these type questions do. If you were to wake in the form of another person tomorrow, you would surely be utterly changed because of the structure of the brain. However if from the perspective of your consciousness one followed the other, the part that is our conscious would survive. However this sort of debate again relies on each persons view of consciousness which is still a hugely unknown phenomena to us. For me at least SK did a good job of reconciling this by merging the memories of the other versions (as he had done with Jake originally), and by memories inferring that whatever we find to be important about what makes one an individual is also transferred.

The interesting sentence for me was "Beneath the flowing and sometimes glimpsed glammer of the beam that connects Shardik the Bear and Maturin the Turtule by way of the Dark Tower, they did live". SK used the word glammer before most noticeable with Dandelo and also the chap who was the the Crimson King's head of state. We know it to mean an illusion. I think by this line SK is saying that the Dark Tower creates our Worlds and realities. They are illusions nevertheless. The dream of the beam would suggest that there is some sort of intelligence or consciousness there and if it plans to reward those who have saved it by reuniting them for a life together with happiness, I am happy to accept this without delving further into metaphysical questions of alternate realities.