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View Full Version : The doors - the bodies the souls and some philosophia



Letti
12-18-2007, 05:40 AM
What happens to the left bodies at the door? What happens to the owners' mind? What are the rules?
Let's imagine that Roland is in Eddie's mind and a lobstrosity eats his whole body but Roland can't come back to protect himself because of this or that?
Would Roland stay in Eddie's mind forever? Or would he die?

ManOfWesternesse
12-18-2007, 05:48 AM
A good question....

In the example you give, given what we know of Roland - I think he would take over and try to get 'his' new body back through any door, anywhere, to resume his quest for the Tower. Eddie's mind would be doomed to either a back-seat in his own body or eventual ... cessation? - give up & leave the body to Roland.

To answer the main question. I think those bodies left at the door are just empty husks.

Letti
12-18-2007, 05:49 AM
So do you say the person's mind is still alive after their heart stopped bumping at the other side?

Jean
12-18-2007, 05:50 AM
one of my very favorite places:

You could live in this body, gunslinger, the voice of the man in black whispered deep inside his head. Leave that piece of breathing meat over there for the lobster-things. It's only a husk, anyway.
He would not do that. For one thing it would be the most murderous sort of thievery, because he would not be content to be just a passenger for long, looking out of this man's eyes like a traveller looking out of a coach window at the passing scenery.
For another, he was Roland. If dying was required, he intended to die as Roland.
He would die crawling toward the Tower, if that was what was required.

Letti
12-18-2007, 05:53 AM
But Jean, do you trust Randall? I believe none of his words or whispers.
Maybe he sent these thoughts to Roland to kill him because he would have died immadiately if his boby had stopped working.

jayson
12-18-2007, 05:57 AM
On a metaphysical level, I agree with M_of_W, Roland could simply inhabit the body he is currently in and force the owner into the back of their mind, somewhat like Mia did to Susannah. My purely hypothetical question then becomes... Could the Eddie/Roland hybrid find a way to travel to a when where Roland's body is not yet dead and get him back inside himself somehow? Probably best not to think too hard on it.:rose:

ManOfWesternesse
12-18-2007, 06:00 AM
Thanks for the reference Jean - I was thinking King said something but could not recall it.

Letti - I believe Roland's 'mind' was complete & intact & 'in' Eddie. And would survive there if his body should be lost while he was there. So yes, I guess I believe what Walter said here. After all it would have suited Walter very well - to have Roland 'trapped' on another world while the Tower was vulnerable in his.
Roland 'preferred' to return to his own body, sick as it was, and crawl to the Tower.
BUT the question was 'What would he do if his body died - if he could not return to it at all?' - I still say he would have piloted Eddie's body back to the quest somehow! (I mean - we know there were other gateways/doors - including in Maine & New York as we later saw) - he could have got back on the path.

Letti
12-18-2007, 06:01 AM
Guys... of course he could have led Eddie. That's sure. What I have been thinking for long is what would happen after the death of the body...
Can our mind exist in another body? Or is our mind tied to our body?
Hard questions I know.

Jean
12-18-2007, 06:02 AM
But Jean, do you trust Randall? I believe none of his words or whispers.
No, I don't trust him. Right. On the other hand, we have very little to go on, so that possibility should be considered, too. I have no opinion of my own here, but I'm afraid every surmise will sooner or later lead to paradox. (just an intuition.)

ManOfWesternesse
12-18-2007, 06:02 AM
...My purely hypothetical question then becomes...
[1] Could the Eddie/Roland hybrid find a way to travel to a when where Roland's body is not yet dead and get him back inside himself somehow?
[2] Probably best not to think too hard on it.:rose:

[1] I had'nt thought of that possibility - ??
[2] Damn good advice - but will we take it?? (Would Roland??) :lol:

ManOfWesternesse
12-18-2007, 06:05 AM
......Can our mind exist in another body? Or is our mind tied to our body?
Hard questions I know.

In the context of DT & what King gave us? - Yes, the mind could exist in another body, and I believe it would continue to do so if the 'body_at_the_door' died.

In real life? - well, who wants to know about that poor-reality! :lol:

Letti
12-18-2007, 06:06 AM
But Jean, do you trust Randall? I believe none of his words or whispers.
No, I don't trust him. Right. On the other hand, we have very little to go on, so that possibility should be considered, too. I have no opinion of my own here, but I'm afraid every surmise will sooner or later lead to paradox. (just an intuition.)

You might be right.
My first thought was that if my body dies my mind has to die as well. It doesn't matter where I am. But I have no logical explanation so it's just a feeling.
I will keep on thinking about it.

jayson
12-18-2007, 06:21 AM
......Can our mind exist in another body? Or is our mind tied to our body?
Hard questions I know.

In the context of DT & what King gave us? - Yes, the mind could exist in another body, and I believe it would continue to do so if the 'body_at_the_door' died.



If you look at Mia & Susannah, not only does it show that one mind could exist in another body, wasn't the body eventually becoming the body of the stronger mind? The Susannah-Mio body was becoming more and more Mia's white body as Mia was becoming the dominant personality. Susannah seemed to think eventually the entire body would be Mia and she would simply be a thought in her own head. I believe this is what would happen in Letti's hypothetical.

Letti
12-18-2007, 06:23 AM
But if the stronger mind can lead the body... and the body tries to be more and more similar to the leader (like Eddie's eyes changed colour so did Susannah's legs) is it possiblethat after a long while Eddie would have looked like Roland?

jayson
12-18-2007, 06:24 AM
But if the stronger mind can lead the body... and the body tries to be more and more similar to the leader (like Eddie's eyes changed colour so did Susannah's legs) is it possiblethat after a long while Eddie would have looked like Roland?

Precisely what I think could happen.

Letti
12-18-2007, 06:26 AM
But if the stronger mind can lead the body... and the body tries to be more and more similar to the leader (like Eddie's eyes changed colour so did Susannah's legs) is it possiblethat after a long while Eddie would have looked like Roland?

Precisely what I think could happen.

Ekkk. I hope there isn't a door somewhere out there with my name on it. :D

jayson
12-18-2007, 06:29 AM
Ekkk. I hope there isn't a door somewhere out there with my name on it. :D

I think the key is, when Roland comes a-calling to go with him as quickly as possible before something happens to him on the other side.:panic:

ManOfWesternesse
12-18-2007, 06:34 AM
... is it possiblethat after a long while Eddie would have looked like Roland?

Precisely what I think could happen.

More! - eventually, he would essentially have been Roland! (as in , Roland would have taken over)




Ekkk. I hope there isn't a door somewhere out there with my name on it. :D
*gets out a sketch pad and starts drawing a door feverishly*
Letti, how do you spell Nikolett, properly, in Hungarian? :whistle:

Letti
12-18-2007, 06:37 AM
Khm...how do I spell it?

This way: Nyycolettea ;)

ManOfWesternesse
12-18-2007, 06:39 AM
Khm...how do I spell it?

This way: Nyycolettea ;)

Great, great, thanks love.:huglove:

Damn, why is it not working?:pullhair:


:lol:
//OK - back on topic!

jayson
12-18-2007, 06:44 AM
Damn, why is it not working?:pullhair:


I think you darkled when you should have tincted.

Matt
12-18-2007, 03:17 PM
Khm...how do I spell it?

This way: Nyycolettea ;)

Great, great, thanks love.:huglove:

Damn, why is it not working?:pullhair:


:lol:
//OK - back on topic!

I just have to wonder where that door went. :lol:

Malficeus
01-23-2008, 08:16 PM
in a sense i kept thinking when he went through the doors it was his soul or spirit that went through it and as for the great what if thing.. yeah roland would take over and have complete control(like Jack Mort) till he got to a door and probably pull the trick he did to bring eddie in his world except backwards

ManOfWesternesse
01-24-2008, 01:43 AM
in a sense i kept thinking when he went through the doors it was his soul or spirit that went through it and as for the great what if thing.. yeah roland would take over and have complete control(like Jack Mort) till he got to a door and probably pull the trick he did to bring eddie in his world except backwards

Gimme that highlighted bit in some more detail Malficeus ?
(Say sorry - my pooor old brain is slower than usual this morning!)

Malficeus
01-24-2008, 03:35 PM
in a sense i kept thinking when he went through the doors it was his soul or spirit that went through it and as for the great what if thing.. yeah roland would take over and have complete control(like Jack Mort) till he got to a door and probably pull the trick he did to bring eddie in his world except backwards

Gimme that highlighted bit in some more detail Malficeus ?
(Say sorry - my pooor old brain is slower than usual this morning!)

well i was thinking since he took control of eddie and pulled him through the door by what ever they are inside the head he could pull the same trick but backwards and what ever we want to call them in the heads is their body then Roland would have a new body... idk it was kinda of thought of the moment

Brainslinger
03-15-2008, 10:07 AM
I think if Roland's body had died, the Roland would continue to live in Eddie's body. I can see why a person might think that he would die though, after all how much of a link remains between the body and 'mind/spirit/ka/whatever/' when it's vacant?

I think it depends very much on how 'there' the individuals mind actually is. In this case, I would say totally (taking into account he felt none of the sickness of his body or the dulling of his senses when in Eddie), hence my conclusion.

Wolves of the Calla spoilers:


Consider this though:
What if the person had gone todash however? You know, when it fades in and out of existence? I think if the body were killed in that state, then the person is completely dead. Then again that form of todash is different from the mind possession that occurs in tDotT, as the body itself is partially 'there'.

Matt
03-18-2008, 04:19 PM
Being trapped in Todash after the death of your body would be a horrific thing :panic:

What a fascinating discussion...I love getting time to cruise through these

I believe that Roland would have certainly moved on and I love this idea of a Roland/Eddie hybrid assaulting the Tower. That's a whole other 7 books.


More! - eventually, he would essentially have been Roland! (as in , Roland (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=706) would have taken over)And thinking of this, perhaps it was one of the loops already. Roland's body dies, he co-ops Eddie and finds a door back to do exactly what we are talking about above. Only he sacrifices Eddie in the process by stealing his body.

obscurejude
03-18-2008, 07:34 PM
Epistemologically, I'm very concerned about what this may mean in regards to the soul. Since Descartes, many have understood the soul as "a ghost inhabiting a machine" which is essentially platonic dualism. I always think about this when I think about the doors on the beach. Especially when Roland gazes through the door (while in Eddie) and comments that his body essentially looks dead- in fact that is why he is looking, to make sure that he is still breathing. These scenes make the body insignificant in a way, and that bothers me. Ethics, at least in regards to modernity, have been dominated by similar neo-platonic tendencies (I am thinking of Immanuel Kant and J.S. Mill specifically).

I am an Aristotelian. Aristotle believed (because of this empirical epistemology) that the soul should be understood as the sum of being- including the body. Because life is perceived asthetically through the senses, then it follows that all knowledge is more or less arrived at empirically, in contrast to Plato's insistence that truth only exist in the abstract realm of the divine. It seems that Roland's identity is not embodied whatsoever. It really messed with me as I was reading it. You guys know I love the books, but this bothered me. While the scene is very indicative of modernity, it is not representative of my personal beliefs- and yes I'm a Neo- Aristotelian post-modernist. I went into this explanation bc Letti mentioned philosophy in the title. Please don't be mad at me if I misunderstood and rambled off-topic.

Wuducynn
03-18-2008, 08:44 PM
Ahhh someone just got back from a college class in philosophy.

Jean
03-19-2008, 12:04 AM
Please don't be mad at me if I misunderstood and rambled off-topic.
I think you're perfectly on topic and everything you said makes sense. Maybe to solve your dilemma you could look at it as a concept that overcomes classical aristotelian understanding; namely, the thomist concept of soul. It wouldn't be a straightforward solution, but, I think, at least something to start with.

Woofer
03-19-2008, 04:37 AM
Epistemologically, I'm very concerned about what this may mean in regards to the soul. Since Descartes, many have understood the soul as "a ghost inhabiting a machine" which is essentially platonic dualism. I always think about this when I think about the doors on the beach. Especially when Roland gazes through the door (while in Eddie) and comments that his body essentially looks dead- in fact that is why he is looking, to make sure that he is still breathing. These scenes make the body insignificant in a way, and that bothers me. Ethics, at least in regards to modernity, have been dominated by similar neo-platonic tendencies (I am thinking of Immanuel Kant and J.S. Mill specifically).

While the mind inhabiting another body may not be a traditional Christian concept, the body as a vessel for the mind (and soul) certainly is. And for Christians as a whole, mind = soul. It's not much of a stretch to see this applied in Roland's world - as we did. Likewise, astral projection, the process of sending the mind outside the body to other places, fits neatly with the doors/bodies scenario King chose. We've seen this exhibited in everything from Anne Rice's The Body Thief to Being John Malkovich. The body left behind, unless another consciousness is available to occupy it, simply appears to be "brain dead" as, essentially, it is.


I am an Aristotelian. Aristotle believed (because of this empirical epistemology) that the soul should be understood as the sum of being- including the body. Because life is perceived asthetically through the senses, then it follows that all knowledge is more or less arrived at empirically, in contrast to Plato's insistence that truth only exist in the abstract realm of the divine. It seems that Roland's identity is not embodied whatsoever. It really messed with me as I was reading it. You guys know I love the books, but this bothered me. While the scene is very indicative of modernity, it is not representative of my personal beliefs- and yes I'm a Neo- Aristotelian post-modernist. I went into this explanation bc Letti mentioned philosophy in the title. Please don't be mad at me if I misunderstood and rambled off-topic.

But perception through the senses is nothing if there is no mind to consider, reflect, and categorize the experience. Are the blind and deaf less capable of achieving complete understanding or knowledge of something because they experience life with an incomplete set of senses? Or is it just that their understanding and knowledge is different than one who has all senses intact? What about the possible "sixth" sense? Do people with ESP have more of an understanding than those restricted to the traditional five senses?

The mind is perception, for without it we are simply animated meat, little more than zombies shoving random items in our mouths in search of sustenance.

obscurejude
03-19-2008, 08:04 AM
Ah folks...These are just concerns of mine, not definitive statements. Woofer, Christian concepts along these lines were very platonic with the advent of St. Augustine (Manichean and Neo-Platonist) in the 5th Century. During the crusades, Aristotle was rediscovered after Jerusalem was re-taken by the Christians. This discovery led to late Middle- Age Scholasticism (Aquinas etc...) Aristotle was in favor for a few years, but the Renaissance picked up Plato again, and Aristotle has all but disappeared for the most part.

Jean, its great that you picked up on that. Thomas is sort of where I landed right before I graduated college. Its complicated...thank you for the suggestion friend. :)

Woofer, in regards to the senses... Instead of looking at Plato and Aristotle as diametrically opposed, I tend to look at Aristotle (his pupil) as disagreeing with Plato, but still maintaining a lot of his basic precepts. They were in conversation, not out to destroy each other. The mind is extremely important to the body and any theory of knowledge (epistemology). I was trying to suggest that the mind has been, perhaps a little overemphasized (actually a lot). As for disabilities, its an interesting question and brings us to the heart of the matter. I've always pictured Plato as someone who would enjoy having disabilities like you mentioned, because he was so terrified of being led astray by his sense perceptions. I think Plato would enjoy being blind.

obscurejude
03-19-2008, 08:08 AM
Also, I am a post-modernist because I think of it as an alternative to modernity (which is decidedly platonic, at least in regards to ethics, as I have mentioned). I would elaborate about my views of embodied epistemology, but it would be off-topic. If you're interested, pm me.

Great points, everyone.

LadyHitchhiker
03-20-2008, 01:57 PM
I like to think that someone else takes over the bodies for a little while and they go take a nap or go dancing or something....

But you're right , Letti. How come they don't end up getting eaten or sunburned or something?

SDZald
09-18-2014, 08:47 AM
Many of you see the body, soul and the mind as distinct separate things. I see a person as the sum of all the parts, just as you can't have a living body without a heart and lungs you really can't have a person without a body, mind and soul.

In the Matrix movies if the body was killed while the mind was off in the Matrix the mind would die as well. Why would that be? Non human beings inside the Matrix lived just fine without a real body. Yes I know it is lame to try and argue reality by referencing fiction but the entire concept of what is really real that the Matrix is all about addresses this current discussion.

IMO if Roland's body dies while his mind is in Eddie then his mind dies as well.

What I find interesting about this is how "special" the doors are in the DOTT. In all the other doors they find and use when a person goes through the door their entire "self" goes through. Only in DOTT does just the mind go through.