Somebody please debunk this for me

[zadok]

I can't get it out of my head that Patrick Danville is just another alias for Walter/Flagg/Ageless Stranger. Tell me how that is impossible. Thanks!

[Jimmy]

It's impossible because they've appeared as seperate characters in the same book, DT7.

[Wuducynn]

I can't get it out of my head that Patrick Danville is just another alias for Walter/Flagg/Ageless Stranger. Tell me how that is impossible. Thanks!

Have you finished the series?

[zadok]

It's impossible because they've appeared as seperate characters in the same book, DT7.

So what? He did so in The Gunslinger.

[zadok]

I can't get it out of my head that Patrick Danville is just another alias for Walter/Flagg/Ageless Stranger. Tell me how that is impossible. Thanks!

Have you finished the series?

Yessir.

[Matt]

I never even imagined that the two could be the same. Why would you think so?

That may be a good place to start :couple:

[Storyslinger]

I can't get it out of my head that Patrick Danville is just another alias for Walter/Flagg/Ageless Stranger. Tell me how that is impossible. Thanks!

Patrick is the mute artist Roland meets and defeats the CK with. This happens way after Walter is killed by Mordred. Two different people on two different sides. One white, one red

[Wuducynn]

Boy this is a first. Just curious Zadok, what gives you this idea?

[jayson]

It's not "proof" per se, but it seems very unlikely that Joe "Dandelo" Collins would have been able to subdue Walter as easily as he did Patrick.

[fernandito]

VERY unlikely.

[zadok]

I never even imagined that the two could be the same. Why would you think so?

That may be a good place to start :couple:


Roland rejects the "help" from Insomnia - where Patrick's "false prophecy" is made.

Patrick had his tongue removed like Walter did.

Roland is very angry with him for no real reason.

Walter is afraid of "an accounting" if he were to climb the Dark Tower - Patrick is afraid once they reach it.

Walter has the power to raise people from the dead - why not himself?

Walter secretly wants to kill the Crimson King - Danville does it.

He is the only one left with Roland at the end, we are told we don't know what happens to him after that next day other than he was "on the road".

Roland starts out again in the desert chasing Walter who is miles ahead of him.

Walter tells Roland in the desert "he already stands so close to the Tower that worlds turn about his head".

There may be others that I am forgetting...


Edit to add: Patrick's painting of llamrei dead.

[zadok]

It's not "proof" per se, but it seems very unlikely that Joe "Dandelo" Collins would have been able to subdue Walter as easily as he did Patrick.

I figured they were in on it together.

[Matt]

hmmmm...interesting stuff there.

[zadok]

Boy this is a first. Just curious Zadok, what gives you this idea?


Just one of my many various and sundry thoughts...

[jayson]

It's not "proof" per se, but it seems very unlikely that Joe "Dandelo" Collins would have been able to subdue Walter as easily as he did Patrick.

I figured they were in on it together.

Possible, though I'm not sure Dandelo would have laid down his life for Walter's plans, though I suppose theoretically Walter could resurrect him. I still disagree Zadok, but this is very interesting...

[zadok]

It's not "proof" per se, but it seems very unlikely that Joe "Dandelo" Collins would have been able to subdue Walter as easily as he did Patrick.

I figured they were in on it together.

Possible, though I'm not sure Dandelo would have laid down his life for Walter's plans, though I suppose theoretically Walter could resurrect him. I still disagree Zadok, but this is very interesting...

I'm far from sure about it myself, feel free to disagree.

I don't think Dandelo's death was part of the plan (if he and Walter were in on it together). But who was that man in the picture supposed to be? (the one with the dead horse)

[jayson]

It's definitely an intriguing theory because I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since I read your first post. I am currently re-reading DT-6, and will give this theory some serious thought when I get to DT-7 again. It actually melds well with Matt's theory that Walter is trying to help Roland.

[CyberGhostface]

Patrick had his tongue removed like Walter did.

Flagg also got his eyes removed. If Flagg's eyes were to magically regrow, then why not his tongue?


Roland is very angry with him for no real reason.

Because is Patrick is an incompetent boob, not because he's Roland's archnemesis. Roland was also pissed off at Oy at the end for no real reason as well. Doesn't mean Oy's evil as well.


Walter is afraid of "an accounting" if he were to climb the Dark Tower - Patrick is afraid once they reach it.

I don't recall Walter being afraid of the Tower, but even so, being afraid of the pinnacle of all existence isn't a rarity.


Walter has the power to raise people from the dead - why not himself?

If that's true, then how come he hasn't resurrected every enemy that Roland has killed? He resurrected one person, and that person came back in an almost zombie-like state.


Walter secretly wants to kill the Crimson King - Danville does it.

Walter wants to kill the Crimson King so he can usurp his power. If Walter WAS Patrick, once the main threat was out of the way he'd kill Roland, take his guns and enter the Tower. Not walk off.


He is the only one left with Roland at the end, we are told we don't know what happens to him after that next day other than he was "on the road".

So?


Roland starts out again in the desert chasing Walter who is miles ahead of him.

What does this have to do with your Patrick connection?

So let me get this straight...

Walter is killed by Mordred. After having his eyes and tongue ripped out, the rest of his body is devoured soon after.

Walter resurrects himself in the form of Patrick Danville. He was able to regrow most of his body, but for some reason, he can't grow back his tongue.

He allies himself with Dandelo, and waits for Roland to arrive, so he can intercept Roland's ka-tet.

Upon doing so, he erases the Crimson King...and walks away, leaving Roland to enter the Tower for himself.

I don't buy it. There are far too many contradictions and inconsistencies to be explained.

[sai blaine]

Doesn't mean Oy's evil as well.

Or does it...:unsure: dum dum duuuuuuuuum

[CyberGhostface]

Oy's the fucking Antichrist. :evil:

[Jimmy]

It's impossible because they've appeared as seperate characters in the same book, DT7.

So what? He did so in The Gunslinger.

No he didn't. Walter and Flagg are two seperate people.

[CyberGhostface]

No, they're the same. By the last book there's really no doubt about that.

[Jimmy]

Both of them are killed seperately though!

Did I miss something?

[MonteGss]

We are discussing that very question in another thread....Twinner thread. :)

[Wuducynn]

Both of them are killed seperately though!

Did I miss something?

When was Flagg killed before DT 7? He always escaped until then.

[CyberGhostface]

Both of them are killed seperately though!

Did I miss something?

DT1 Revised and DT7 SpoilersAt the end of the Revised Gunslinger, Walter is revealed to be Marten. Also, Roland doubts that the remains are truly his. In DT7, Walter tells Mordred that when Roland was asleep during their palaver he dressed up his cloak with some discarded human bones to fool him.

[Wuducynn]

And my last question..

[CyberGhostface]

And my last question..

My best guess is that he/she was confused and was thinking about Walter's DT 1 'death' and his death at the hands of the Pooping Prince.

[Darkthoughts]

It's impossible because they've appeared as seperate characters in the same book, DT7.

So what? He did so in The Gunslinger.

No he didn't. Walter and Flagg are two seperate people.

Walter and Flagg and also Marten, are all aliases of Flaggs. The only person who appeared to be Flagg who wasn't is John Farson. It's hinted he might be in The Gunslinger, but the matter is cleared up in The Dark Tower.


Zadok - I think you're comaprisons are interesting, but ultimately groundless.
What would be the purpose of Patrick being an aspect of Walter if it wasn't ever expanded on in anyway? Patrick had an important role to play in DT, being the executioner of the CK. Because, being undead Los could not be killed by Roland's guns. Other than that, Patrick does not further any other element of the story.

Also the false prophecy in Insomnia was not prophecized by Patrick himself, it only concerned him. Unlike Walter, who actually made prophecies.

[Jimmy]

I feel like such an idiot wow. It's been so long since I've read DT7 that I'd convinced myself that Mordred had killed Flagg and Walter at different times.

Thanks for clearing this up guys.

[zadok]

Zadok - I think you're comaprisons are interesting, but ultimately groundless.

That could very well be.


What would be the purpose of Patrick being an aspect of Walter if it wasn't ever expanded on in anyway? Patrick had an important role to play in DT, being the executioner of the CK. Because, being undead Los could not be killed by Roland's guns. Other than that, Patrick does not further any other element of the story.

That's what started me down this path, it doesn't make any sense to me. We didn't even meet this character until the very end of the story, and yet he's the one who "kills" the big baddie. Other than Insomnia, where else do we have any information on Danville? Why then does Roland perceive that book to be "tricksy"?



Also the false prophecy in Insomnia was not prophecized by Patrick himself, it only concerned him. Unlike Walter, who actually made prophecies.

You are right of course. The CK made the prophecy, right? Why would he lie about Patrick Danville?
(all honest questions)

[zadok]

Patrick had his tongue removed like Walter did.

Flagg also got his eyes removed. If Flagg's eyes were to magically regrow, then why not his tongue?

It would serve only as a literary clue to his identity, not to answer why or how.



Roland is very angry with him for no real reason. Because is Patrick is an incompetent boob, not because he's Roland's archnemesis. Roland was also pissed off at Oy at the end for no real reason as well. Doesn't mean Oy's evil as well.

Oy was ignoring Roland, not eating, not talking. Patrick was always receptive to Roland - and obviously he was not that incompetant as he did as he was told and saved both Susannah's and Roland's behind. How did Walter conjure the Unfound Door to send Callahan through anyway??



Walter is afraid of "an accounting" if he were to climb the Dark Tower - Patrick is afraid once they reach it.

I don't recall Walter being afraid of the Tower, but even so, being afraid of the pinnacle of all existence isn't a rarity.

Walter expressed both a desire and fear to climb the Tower himself (revised Gunslinger). He was afraid of "an accounting" if he reaced the top. He is "afraid of the inside" according to Tom Cullen (the Stand). The 1990 edition of the Stand basically says Flagg was killed in the explosion but reappeared in a new body with complete amnesia...



Walter has the power to raise people from the dead - why not himself?

If that's true, then how come he hasn't resurrected every enemy that Roland has killed? He resurrected one person, and that person came back in an almost zombie-like state.

Good question. But why even mention it at all then? Why even bring up the power of resurrection? And didn't he basically resurrect Andrew Quick as well?



Walter secretly wants to kill the Crimson King - Danville does it.

Walter wants to kill the Crimson King so he can usurp his power. If Walter WAS Patrick, once the main threat was out of the way he'd kill Roland, take his guns and enter the Tower. Not walk off.

What if he was too afraid to enter it?



He is the only one left with Roland at the end, we are told we don't know what happens to him after that next day other than he was "on the road".

So?

So, it's not so hard to imagine that road becoming the Mohaine Desert that day, is it?



Roland starts out again in the desert chasing Walter who is miles ahead of him.

What does this have to do with your Patrick connection?

Patrick was only a few miles away from Roland when he got to the top of the Tower.



So let me get this straight...

Walter is killed by Mordred. After having his eyes and tongue ripped out, the rest of his body is devoured soon after.

Walter resurrects himself in the form of Patrick Danville. He was able to regrow most of his body, but for some reason, he can't grow back his tongue.

He allies himself with Dandelo, and waits for Roland to arrive, so he can intercept Roland's ka-tet.

Upon doing so, he erases the Crimson King...and walks away, leaving Roland to enter the Tower for himself.

I don't buy it. There are far too many contradictions and inconsistencies to be explained.

Walter/Flagg is a demon, correct? Legion (many), right? Doesn't that allow him to do just about anything? I'm just sayin'...

[sai blaine]

Oy's the ------- Antichrist. :evil:
At last! Someone agrees with me on that :rofl: Its too easy to picture Oy in a red tutu and a long pointed fork inbetween his jaws

[CyberGhostface]

It would serve only as a literary clue to his identity, not to answer why or how.

But for the purpose of the plot, if Walter were able to regenerate everything, why would his tongue be impossible to grow back? If you make an argument, you have to take everything into consideration. You can't just conviently ignore something that contradicts your argument.


Oy was ignoring Roland, not eating, not talking. Patrick was always receptive to Roland - and obviously he was not that incompetant as he did as he was told and saved both Susannah's and Roland's behind. How did Walter conjure the Unfound Door to send Callahan through anyway??

He had Black 13 with him. Black 13 sent Callahan todash.


Good question. But why even mention it at all then? Why even bring up the power of resurrection? And didn't he basically resurrect Andrew Quick as well?

He didn't resurrect Andrew Quick because Quick never died. He was just wounded. And as for resurrection...I don't know. But if he did have ressurrection abilities, it would probably be very limited considering how much poor shape Nort was in.


What if he was too afraid to enter it?

His entire goal was to reach the Tower. Why would he turn around at the last minute? What gain would Walter have in helping his nemesis reach the Tower, save him from death and then turn away at the last second? It makes no sense.


So, it's not so hard to imagine that road becoming the Mohaine Desert that day, is it?

Actually, it is. ANYTHING is possible...for all we know, we could imagine that road leading to Hogwarts. But Roland only entered the Mohaine Desert via the Tower and was sent back in time. And, according to your argument, Patrick/Walter was too afraid to enter.


Patrick was only a few miles away from Roland when he got to the top of the Tower.

So? Roland got to the desert via the Tower. He got in because he had the Mark of Eld. Once he got inside the Tower, it shut behind him so Patrick wouldn't be able to get in. And before you say "He could just conjure a Mark of Eld"...then why did he want Mordred to begin with???


Walter/Flagg is a demon, correct? Legion (many), right? Doesn't that allow him to do just about anything? I'm just sayin'...

Not really. If he could do *anything* he could have just killed Mordred with a thought, cut off his foot and teleport to the Tower. He's not omnipotent. And even if he was, there's nothing to suggest that he'd save Roland and Susannah from death, vanquish their enemy and let Roland enter the Tower with no problem. If Walter was Patrick, once he had the upper hand, he'd ambush Roland, steal his gun and claim the Tower for himself.

[Wuducynn]

I'm still not convinced Zadok isn't just kidding around and made this thread as a joke.

[zadok]

Cyber,

We'll just agree to disagree on whether Walter was afraid of the Tower or not. And I know I am making logical leaps with this theory, but these books are full of such things.


He had Black 13 with him. Black 13 sent Callahan todash.

I know the crystal sent him through the door. I'm asking how was the door there coincidentally with Walter. Black 13 can't make the Unfound Door appear, only open it. Right?

[zadok]

I'm still not convinced Zadok isn't just kidding around and made this thread as a joke.

I don't do that, dude.

[CyberGhostface]

I don't recall Walter bringing a door. I just thought Callahan was sent Todash via Black 13 and he ended up at the Doorway Cave.

[jayson]

Black 13 can't make the Unfound Door appear, only open it. Right?

I'm not sure we know what something as powerful as Black 13 can do in the hands of someone as powerful as Walter O'Dim.

[zadok]

I don't recall Walter bringing a door. I just thought Callahan was sent Todash via Black 13 and he ended up at the Doorway Cave.

Calahan entered the cave via the Unfound Door.

[Darkthoughts]

I feel like such an idiot wow. It's been so long since I've read DT7 that I'd convinced myself that Mordred had killed Flagg and Walter at different times.

Thanks for clearing this up guys.
Don't sweat it - look at my post, i thought Zadok was making comaprisons :P Idiots rule ;)



Why then does Roland perceive that book to be "tricksy"?


You are right of course. The CK made the prophecy, right? Why would he lie about Patrick Danville?
(all honest questions)

It was just an unrevised mistake by King. Roland thinks the book is "tricksy" and King tells them it's a red herring, simply because IRL King had obviously changed his mind about Patrick's role in the DT story - but wanted to point out to the constant reader (by way of the story line) that he was aware of the inconsistencies.

That's how i see it anyway :)

[pathoftheturtle]

His entire goal was to reach the Tower. Why would he turn around at the last minute? What gain would Walter have in helping his nemesis reach the Tower, save him from death and then turn away at the last second? It makes no sense.
Maybe because he knows it wouldn't work.
If Walter knows about the loop, as he seems to in The Gunslinger, maybe it is all an elaborate plot to reach the top of the Tower in another thousand turns, or whatever, when it really matters.

Maybe.



He is the only one left with Roland at the end, we are told we don't know what happens to him after that next day other than he was "on the road".

So?Walkin' dude. ;)

(BTW, it's nice to see you again, Cyber. :) I wasn't sure if you'd joined tdt.com.)

[CyberGhostface]

Maybe because he knows it wouldn't work.
If Walter knows about the loop, as he seems to in The Gunslinger, maybe it is all an elaborate plot to reach the top of the Tower in another thousand turns, or whatever, when it really matters.

Maybe.

If one looks hard enough they can probably take any remotely vague thing and attribute it to something else. But there's nothing to indicate that Patrick was Walter. Don't get me wrong, having Patrick turn into Walter and fighting Roland at the Tower would have been better than what we got, but there's nothing to show that. There's a whole lot of "What if"s and "maybe"s but not a lot of convincing proof.


(BTW, it's nice to see you again, Cyber. :) I wasn't sure if you'd joined tdt.com.)

Thanks. :)

[pathoftheturtle]

...There's a whole lot of "What if"s and "maybe"s but not a lot of convincing proof.
lol, Well, I can't really argue with that. Most of the time, paranoid fantasies are easier to find concrete disproof of. But, indeed, it is true that:

...these books are full of such things.




He had Black 13 with him. Black 13 sent Callahan todash.

I know the crystal sent him through the door. I'm asking how was the door there coincidentally with Walter. Black 13 can't make the Unfound Door appear, only open it. Right?It's just as logical (if not more so) to conclude that Walter went to where the door was than to conclude that he brought the door to him. The Way Station itself seems to be a place of power, just like the Cave of Voices is.

On the other hand, it's not unreasonable to think that, like Patrick, Walter has the power of "drawing." Other doors between worlds were "there coincidentally with" Roland in DT II, a phenomenon which he later speculated that the man in black was partially responsible for.

[zadok]

Thanks Path. Also, I just re-read the section where Roland tells Patrick to draw the CK. What does this mean to you?
1. Patrick spoke directly to Roland's mind.
2. The voice was that of a grown man...a "powerful man"
3. The voice said the CK "darkles and tincts" - the text asks the reader, "where did Roland hear that before"???
4. The answer, of course, was from Walter at the end of The Gunslinger.

[zadok]

Nobody else finds that provocative?

[jayson]

Thanks Path. Also, I just re-read the section where Roland tells Patrick to draw the CK. What does this mean to you?
1. Patrick spoke directly to Roland's mind.
2. The voice was that of a grown man...a "powerful man"
3. The voice said the CK "darkles and tincts" - the text asks the reader, "where did Roland hear that before"???
4. The answer, of course, was from Walter at the end of The Gunslinger.

1. It means Roland is stronger in the touch than you give him credit for being.
2. Patrick was a grown man, and a powerful man. He just acted like a child a lot of the time because he was so traumatized by Dandelo.
3 & 4. Patrick has some ability to draw/undraw so he can see the multi-leveled nature of CK. Remember, we know far too little about Patrick and why he can do the things he can. It doesn't make him Walter.

[zadok]

1. It means Roland is stronger in the touch than you give him credit for being.

Nope, Patrick did it intentionally. He grabbed Roland's head and literally went face to face with him.


2. Patrick was a grown man, and a powerful man. He just acted like a child a lot of the time because he was so traumatized by Dandelo.

Actually, we are told that we don't know how old he is. Could be 15, could be 30. He is "ageless". He had already drawn Susannah's pimple away and the door for her to escape, that power was already expressed in front of Roland. The voice he heard was another person altogther than the one he was traveling with, IMHO.


3 & 4. Patrick has some ability to draw/undraw so he can see the multi-leveled nature of CK. Remember, we know far too little about Patrick and why he can do the things he can. It doesn't make him Walter.

Why specifically cite the line Walter used and why does SK ask "where did he hear this before"?

[jayson]

It still indicates nothing more than the touch to me regardless of who intiated the conversation. At this point Roland and Patrick were ka-tet, and a damn small ka-tet at that, and so close to the Tower that unspoken communication between them doesn't surprise me in the least.

As for the voice he heard, I still see no reason to believe it's anyone other than Patrick. Patrick is clearly much more powerful than we know, so that his "internal" voice is that strong isn't a shocker.

Why does King bring it up "darkle & tinct" again this late as a reference to the first book? To bring things full circle.

[Jean]

I completely agree with the arguments given by R_of_G, they all seem very logical and to the point. The discussion, altogether, reminds very much of the one we've had about Oy's gender... anything might be put forward as a hypothesis, and discussed (more or less productively), but both look rather like formal exercise in logic than anything directly related to the story.

[jayson]

3. The voice said the CK "darkles and tincts" - the text asks the reader, "where did Roland hear that before"???
4. The answer, of course, was from Walter at the end of The Gunslinger.

That is, of course, AN answer though not necessarily THE answer. Yes, Roland heard Walter say this before, but this was not the ONLY place he heard it before. The voice of the Tower tells him that he darkles and tincts, and at the time he hears it he knows he has been on this loop before. While there is no reason to believe Roland remembers he is on a loop, there is plenty of reason to think some of it resonates within his psyche.