Oy and Billybumblers

[Letti]

Do we know Oy's gender? I always think of him as a "he" but has it ever been mentioned in the book that oy is a he??

[Brice]

Not that I recall.

[Letti]

So maybe the ka-tet has two girls??

[Brice]

Maybe? I'm not sure. I always thought of Oy as being male too. I just don't recall if it says anywhere.

[Wuducynn]

"Come here boy!!" - Jake "Oy!" - Oy

Jake did a quick genitals check and saw Oy had an amazing ball-sac and it was obvious.

[TerribleT]

I seem to remember something about bumblers being genderless, but I might be mistaken.

[sai blaine]

Well i say hes a male, because in the animal kingdom (may be different in DT but ..lets say its not) all females would be potentail partners for the males, you could have many females to some males but not the other way around soo i dont see why they would outcast Oy if he was a she, but being a male Oy would have to compete against other and proberly stronger males....:orely:

[ManOfWesternesse]

Always assumed he was male too - but I think you're right in saying it's never actually specified in the Books.

[Wuducynn]

Except for my quotes above..

[Letti]

Except for my quotes above..

Were you serious in that previous post?

[jayson]

I'd have to agree with AllHail. We can presume that Jake can identify the gender of a mammal, and he repeatedly calls Oy "Boy."

[sai blaine]

All Hail...serious.... dont go together too well....

[Letti]

I'd have to agree with AllHail. We can presume that Jake can identify the gender of a mammal, and he repeatedly calls Oy "Boy."

Man...
do you two say that if Jake had said "girl" Oy wouldn't have answered "Irl" but he would have said something like this: "uck you, am oy!!"???

[Wuducynn]

Well the bottom part I wasn't, but yes that was a direct quote and I was serious about that part. I'm sure Jake spent enough time with Oy to know his gender.
Although all the chick billy-bumblers say Oy is the hottest.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Except for my quotes above..
Ah! but that could have been Jake assuming Oy is male (just as we do) - were we ever actually told?

[ManOfWesternesse]

...he would have said something like this: "uck you, am oy!!"???

Damn good bumbler-speak there Letti! Do those mice of yours speak bumbler or something??

[jayson]

Ah! but that could have been Jake assuming Oy is male (just as we do) - were we ever actually told?
Yes, but Jake's assumptions come from handling Oy, not reading about him.

To answer your question, no, we were never actually told in the narrative to my knowledge.

[Letti]

...he would have said something like this: "uck you, am oy!!"???

Damn good bumbler-speak there Letti! Do those mice of yours speak bumbler or something??

:lol:
They don't use such dirty words... :D

[Wuducynn]

Except for my quotes above..
Ah! but that could have been Jake assuming Oy is male (just as we do) - were we ever actually told?

Listen missy! Are you getting fresh with me??

[Matt]

I thought we had a line where Oy lifted his leg somewhere, that would denote "boy" imo

[Wuducynn]

Since Matt does this at every fire hydrant he meets, he knows full well the truth of that.

[sai blaine]

"Come here boy!!" - Jake "Oy!" - Oy
Maybe "Oy" is to billy-bumblers as "Oink" is to pigs...

[Wuducynn]

Since we find out throughout the series that bumblers are great mimicers I doubt that.

[Letti]

I thought we had a line where Oy lifted his leg somewhere, that would denote "boy" imo

It can be the answer of my question. Thank you. :)


(Does anyone else remember it??)

[ManOfWesternesse]

I thought we had a line where Oy lifted his leg somewhere, that would denote "boy" imo

Yes - that would have to be construed as pretty definitive! :lol:



Listen missy! Are you getting fresh with me??
:lol: not at all kind sir!

[jayson]

I thought we had a line where Oy lifted his leg somewhere, that would denote "boy" imo

It can be the answer of my question. Thank you. :)


(Does anyone else remember it??)

Though I don't remember precisely when it happened, I do remember it happening.

[Letti]

I thought we had a line where Oy lifted his leg somewhere, that would denote "boy" imo

It can be the answer of my question. Thank you. :)


(Does anyone else remember it??)

Though I don't remember precisely when it happened, I do remember it happening.

Great.
Thank you all. :)

[Wuducynn]

I think it happened when Oy accompanied Jake and Eddie todash

[sai blaine]

If the rumors are true then Allhail really would know... :P

[Wuducynn]

:harrier:

[jayson]

It was either when AllHail mentions or...

When Oy, Jake & Callahan are in the city prior to going to the Dixie Pig.

[sai blaine]

:harrier:
:innocent:

I should point out that some female caines cock there leg too while some males squat...like my mums Chihuahua(female) for example

[Matt]

I think that last one was it :D

I've stopped reading Matthew's posts so I'm not sure about his. :lol:

[Wuducynn]

Oh thats okay Matt, you're still my favorite little bitch.

[Daghain]

I thought we had a line where Oy lifted his leg somewhere, that would denote "boy" imo

Yep. :D

[SON-OF-WAYNE]

Well if Jake was at first calling him boy, im sure he must have seen his package.

[Jean]

Everybody, including Roland, calls Oy "he". Roland used to live in the world where bumblers were kept as pets (and it is not all that difficult to tell the gender of canine, feline and other such mammals). Do you think that if Oy was female, Roland would have never noticed that during all their travelling together and wouldn't have corrected the mistake or even mentioned it? The fact that nobody ever said "look, we've been wrong all this time, it's a girl!" is proof enough it was a boy, even though nobody bothered to explicitly confirm it time and again.

[Storyslinger]

right, what Jean said

[She-Oy]

I thought Oy was short for "boy"? Just like Letti said on the previous page. Surely we can safely say he was a male.

Considering my screenname, I'm gonna call myself the authority on this one! LOL

[OchrisO]

Does that mean that your screenname means She-Boy, thus implying transgenderness? :)

[She-Oy]

Does that mean that your screenname means She-Boy, thus implying transgenderness? :)

Uh, um...noooooo.

Shit fuck hell!

:rofl:

[Matt]

She-Boy--:rofl:

That's rough

[She-Oy]

She-Boy--:rofl:

That's rough

Yeah, something told me I should probably stay out of this thread. I did "feel" something like this coming, but I shrugged it off...LOL

Guess intuition is always right.

[sai blaine]

<_< i guess this kinda proves oy is a he-she..... or a-sexual...

[LadyHitchhiker]

Oy's a hermaphrodite, but since we don't have a word for the third gender, thusly Oy's called a "boy".

[Jean]

Oy's a hermaphrodite, but since we don't have a word for the third gender, thusly Oy's called a "boy".
maybe Roland is a hermaphrodite, too? I don't remember any place in the text where anybody said he wasn't.

[jayson]

Oy's a hermaphrodite, but since we don't have a word for the third gender, thusly Oy's called a "boy".
maybe Roland is a hermaphrodite, too? I don't remember any place in the text where anybody said he wasn't.

Of course there would have been a moment where Susan, or Allie, or Rosa or Mrs. Tassenbaum would have said "holy shit, what the hell is that?!?" Well, maybe not Susan, she might not have known better.:excited:

[sai blaine]

If oy was a girl maybe thats why he-she was so fond of jake....

[Jean]

See what I mean? Everything everybody said about Oy in this thread applies to Roland, too. (like, R_of_G: nobody ever said explicitly, "Oh, he's got everything like any other man!" either)

[Letti]

Oy's a hermaphrodite, but since we don't have a word for the third gender, thusly Oy's called a "boy".
maybe Roland is a hermaphrodite, too? I don't remember any place in the text where anybody said he wasn't.

Of course there would have been a moment where Susan, or Allie, or Rosa or Mrs. Tassenbaum would have said "holy shit, what the hell is that?!?" Well, maybe not Susan, she might not have known better.:excited:

Guys.. you are killing me.. :lol:

[Darkthoughts]

Oy is referred to as "he", "his" in the text, and likewise in the Concordance is listed as being male ;)

[sai blaine]

...Men call boats,ships and cars a "she"...

[Darkthoughts]

And what on earth has that got to do with Oy, young weirdo? :D

[LadyHitchhiker]

Oy's a hermaphrodite, but since we don't have a word for the third gender, thusly Oy's called a "boy".
maybe Roland is a hermaphrodite, too? I don't remember any place in the text where anybody said he wasn't.


I nearly died after reading this!!!!!!! :rofl:

[sai blaine]

And what on earth has that got to do with Oy, young weirdo? :D
What im sayin is that them boats and cars etc arnt "female" just because there referred to as "she" same could be said about Oy

[ManOfWesternesse]

And what on earth has that got to do with Oy, young weirdo? :D
What im sayin is that them boats and cars etc arnt "female" just because there referred to as "she" same could be said about Oy

Ah! ... but which is Oy? a Boat?... or a ...Car? That's the question!:panic:

[Letti]

:rofl:

[jayson]

Ah! ... but which is Oy? a Boat?... or a ...Car? That's the question!:panic:

Maybe we need a new poll.. If Oy were a vehicle, what would he be?:dance:

[Matt]

I'm amazed at the discussion--who knew Oy's package would start such a debate. :lol:

[sai blaine]

package? you mean like? a 9mm or a blueberry pie?

[sai blaine]

And what on earth has that got to do with Oy, young weirdo? :D
What im sayin is that them boats and cars etc arnt "female" just because there referred to as "she" same could be said about Oy

Ah! ... but which is Oy? a Boat?... or a ...Car? That's the question!:panic:
:lol: i would say...tricycle?

[LadyHitchhiker]

I'm amazed at the discussion--who knew Oy's package would start such a debate. :lol:

Or lack thereof ;)

[Letti]

I'm amazed at the discussion--who knew Oy's package would start such a debate. :lol:

So am I... :D

[Frunobulax]

Marquis De Sade-type discussion of Oy coming up....I can sense it.

[aurora]

Oys death and meaning has been brought up a few times that I have seen from hunting back through the forums past and brought up again in 'Whos death...' thread.

My question is do you think Oy was truly part of the Ka-tet and second why did Oy leave Jakes grave. I'll start the convo off with what I said in the death thread.


My gosh who doesn't love Oy and how could you not?!? I could write a ton on Oy but will refrain. The one and only thing I ask is did Oy really leave Jakes grave due to Jakes request or was Oy really part of the ka-tet in its fullest sense? And if Oy was ka-tet with the other 4 would he nt love Roland as much as the others? Would he not also call Roland Father? Would Oy not have the same desire to see the Dark Tower himself? Would he not do all he could to help Roland reach the Tower and shout Oy's name there too? This is not many question but one and is answered by did Oy leave Jakes grave because of Jakes request or because he too was ka-tet with Roland and called him Dinh? I say ka-tet and Roland never fully appreciated this till his, Oy's, sacrifice.

[Storyslinger]

Though I believe that Oy was a true member of the tet, his loyality to Jake came before him eraching the Tower. I feel that the only reason that he continued on with Roland was for the reason the Jake told him to go and protect him.

[sarah]

I think Oy was definitely part of the Ka-tet. He left Jakes grave because he had to go on. Ka and Jake wouldn't want oy to die at Jakes grave. imo

[Wuducynn]

Oy was definitely a member of their ka-tet. Undoubtably. His loyalty to Jake was above all but that doesn't take away from his membership.

[Storyslinger]

I think Oy was definitely part of the Ka-tet. He left Jakes grave because he had to go on. Ka and Jake wouldn't want oy to die at Jakes grave. imo

I guess I never put Ka into the equation. That changes the whole outlook. If ka forced Oy to continue on, it would be damn hard to go against it without major problems occuring

[Wuducynn]

"ka" being the other part of "ka-tet" how can it not be taken into account..

[Storyslinger]

"ka" being the other part of "ka-tet" how can it not be taken into account..

I'm a little slow like that.

[aurora]

Well King at least fought against Ka by refusing to continue singing Ves Ka Gan in his Dark Tower works and Ka was about to repay him with death. However thanks to the Ka-Tet saving the last Beam it became strong enough to put Ka back to power and assisted in saving King in the end.
So I guess you could say yes Oy could have fought Ka and stayed with Jake and died there with him. You could also say nope something would have happened that forced Oy back to Rolands side. For me the answer is easy Oy choose of his own will, which I do believe he had, to continue with his Dinh.

[Letti]

He was part of the ka-tet. Hands down.
He left because of Jake. That was the strongest reason. I am sure he loved Roland and respected him but it wouldn't have been enough for him to go on.

[sarah]

Well King at least fought against Ka by refusing to continue singing Ves Ka Gan in his Dark Tower works and Ka was about to repay him with death. However thanks to the Ka-Tet saving the last Beam it became strong enough to put Ka back to power and assisted in saving King in the end.
So I guess you could say yes Oy could have fought Ka and stayed with Jake and died there with him. You could also say nope something would have happened that forced Oy back to Rolands side. For me the answer is easy Oy choose of his own will, which I do believe he had, to continue with his Dinh.


But also along with that, Jake would never have wanted Oy to just lay down and die at his side. He would have wanted Oy to be with Roland and Susannah. So, I think it was a bit of both. He continued on for Ka and for Jake. And who knows, maybe Oy knew his end was going to be protecting Roland.

[Storyslinger]

He was part of the ka-tet. Hands down.
He left because of Jake. That was the strongest reason. I am sure he loved Roland and respected him but it wouldn't have been enough for him to go on.

What I also think. With ka aside, that is.

[Letti]

It might be a bit off topic but that's why I don't understand Susannah. Eddie wanted her to go on with Roland as long as they reach the Dark Tower. (Like Jake wanted Oy to do the same. Oy did. Susannah didn't.)
Okay, I'll shut up.

[Storyslinger]

It might be a bit off topic but that's why I don't understand Susannah. Eddie wanted her to go on with Roland as long as they reach the Dark Tower. (Like Jake wanted Oy to do the same. Oy did. Susannah didn't.)
Okay, I'll shut up.

Perhaps a new thread

[Letti]

There is a long long thread about Susannah's leaving that's why I wrote I'd shut up. ;)

[aurora]

Letti, do you have the link? I'd love to read it.

[MonteGss]

Oy was definitely a member of the ka-tet. I don't feel "ka" makes anyone do anything. I can say that Jake was serving ka when he told Oy he must protect Roland and go on. That is not the same as ka making him do it though.

I :wub: Oy. :D

[jayson]

i would need to read a good explanation from anyone who says he wasn't. i've already said why in several other threads, but oy was as much a gunslinger as the others, he just didn't have any guns. there is no doubt in my mind, nor do i think there was in roland's mind, oy was part of the tet.

and of COURSE it was his ka to go on with roland. remember the vision in the grapefruit. oy had to fulfill his doom just like the rest of them [except suze who decided to opt for the exit]

[Wuducynn]

Ahhhh if anyone can read the part of Wolves of the Calla when Oy bows to the crowd saying "Oy, Eld, ankee" and not think he's part of the ka-tet then they need their head looked at.

[jayson]

as you know, that is my fav part of the whole series, and for this exact reason, that it shows roland sees oy as an equal part of the tet.

[Letti]

Letti, do you have the link? I'd love to read it.

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1650

[Jean]

i would need to read a good explanation from anyone who says he wasn't. i've already said why in several other threads, but oy was as much a gunslinger as the others, he just didn't have any guns. there is no doubt in my mind, nor do i think there was in roland's mind, oy was part of the tet.
hear, hear!

(I omitted the ka part... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif)

[sarah]

Ahhhh if anyone can read the part of Wolves of the Calla when Oy bows to the crowd saying "Oy, Eld, ankee" and not think he's part of the ka-tet then they need their head looked at.



:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:

[Mark]

I'm sure that he was part of the tet, Roland syas it in one of the books (I think the waste lands, i'll check, i'm re-reading it), so i never doubted him being in it.

[ManOfWesternesse]

yes, Oy was most definitely part of the ka-tet.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Oy was part of the ka-tet. Indeed!

[alinda]

YES

[Letti]

It might be a bit off topic but I don't think it needs another thread so I'll pop it here if noone minds it..

Do you think Callahan was part of the ka-tet?

[jayson]

It might be a bit off topic but I don't think it needs another thread so I'll pop it here if noone minds it..

Do you think Callahan was part of the ka-tet?

i think he was more of a dan-tete like cullum, only for longer. i don't think he was a full member of their tet, but he was a valuable ally for them to have

[Letti]

In this case we think the same way R, but I am sure there are some fellas who think of Callahan as a full member of the tet.

[jayson]

In this case we think the same way R, but I am sure there are some fellas who think of Callahan as a full member of the tet.

i'm sure there are, but they are wrong :lol:

[Unfound One]

oy = most definitely
callahan = not sure... certainly seemed like it, but i guess to me the whole tet was established in book 3 once oy was in the picture. imo if callahan was indeed a "full member" of roland's ka-tet he would have showed up earlier in the series...

[Jean]

It might be a bit off topic but I don't think it needs another thread so I'll pop it here if noone minds it..

Do you think Callahan was part of the ka-tet?

i think he was more of a dan-tete like cullum, only for longer. i don't think he was a full member of their tet, but he was a valuable ally for them to have
agree 100%

to some extent, a ka-tet not being a fixed entity (in my opinion), while Callahan wasn't part of Roland ka-tet, they (Roland and company) composed Callahan's ka-tet, helping to achieve his ultimate end (redemption; salvation)

[Wuducynn]

agree 100%

to some extent, a ka-tet not being a fixed entity (in my opinion), while Callahan wasn't part of Roland ka-tet, they (Roland and company) composed Callahan's ka-tet, helping to achieve his ultimate end (redemption; salvation)

Interesting. I'll have to mull that one over a bit...question for you Jean, if you don't believe in ka? Do you recognize ka-tets? If you don't, then wouldn't this question of who was a part of a ka-tet, be moot to you?

[Jean]

no, why? my understanding of a ka-tet doesn't involve ka, that's all.

[Wuducynn]

Okay, how can it not? The central part of "ka-tet" involves ka.

[Brice]

Yes, I must say my understanding in simple terms would be one from many, joined by ka.

[Wuducynn]

Right, a group brought together and bound by ka.

[Jean]

In my picture of the world, ka is a superfluous notion, part of Roland's world mythology (like demons inside drums are part of Lud mythology), used, in various circumstances, to substitute one or several of the notions that make sense to me (like, providence, probability, coincidence, destiny, destination, purpose, duty, direct God's interference and many others). Thus, there's nothing that would prevent a ka-tet from existing for a Christian like me. It's a group of people bound together by the same aim, a propitious concatenation of circumstances, and a set of providential events that shaped their destiny and characters the way that enables them to interact in the best way necessary for achieving the said purpose.

[ManOfWesternesse]

In this case we think the same way R, but I am sure there are some fellas who think of Callahan as a full member of the tet.

*tentatively puts his hand up* :lol:
Yeah, I do think Callahan became a full member of the tet, and died one.

[Mark]

I don't think Callahan was part of the tet, because when he died, he would have broken the tet, yet the tet wasn't broken until Eddie died.


Roland is more a member of many tets, because on some level of the worlds, he is semi-above ka. Its because of the loop and the creation of the writer.
(from the thread "Roland: part of his own tet?")
I think Roland was part of Callahan's tet, composed of Callahan, Jake (Jake because he travelled to The Dixie Pig with Callahan) and Roland, this is how Roland was able to possess Callahan's mind and shout that message to Jake.

[Childe 007]

Well - I'd vote definate for Oy. There's never been a question there. Kojak precludes and justifies that.

And I'd also vote yes for Callahan. Someone said something earlier about him coming to the story late - the only one who did come any earlier was Jake. But the real reason that he is a member of the ka-tet is his possession of Black 13 and the link to King.

Callahan was the final piece of the puzzle that led Roland to Stephen King - and ultimately allowed him to complete his quest to the Dark Tower. When he saw the book Salem's Lot - that Calvin Tower pushed thru the door along with Eddie and realized that he was but a character in someone else's story -He became their bridge to the navel of gan and the understanding of the threat posed by the Crimson King. Unto his care was given the most deadly of the Wizard's Glasses, undoubtedly another trap for Roland - but one that Callahan was able to keep in check until it could be dealt with.

The most convincing argument to me of his inclusion, though, is the fact that Roland and Eddie felt his death. Probably Jake and Susannah did also but I don't remember that as clearly. He died standing with Jake as a gunslinger. He was ka-tet.

[obscurejude]

In celebration of Modernity's emphasis upon subjective conjecture, I'm going to say that Callahan was a member of the tet. Just because I love him.

He does show up at the beginning in the revised gunslinger...:)

[MonteGss]

As I mentioned previously, Oy is absolutely, positively part of the ka-tet.

The Fadda, however, is NOT. I love him, great character but he just simply was not. It is a big stretch to say he was, imo. :)
If he was, then you have to say Sheemie was too. And Ted and Dinky.
All of these people are helpful friends to the tet, but not members. :)

[sarah]

I agree Monte. Just because you were helpful and a part of the "team" for a few moments doesn't make you a member of the Tet, imo.

[Wuducynn]

As I mentioned previously, Oy is absolutely, positively part of the ka-tet.

The Fadda, however, is NOT. I love him, great character but he just simply was not. It is a big stretch to say he was, imo. :)
If he was, then you have to say Sheemie was too. And Ted and Dinky.
All of these people are helpful friends to the tet, but not members. :)

Wasn't there a part in Wolves or Song where Roland said that he considered Callahan a member of their ka-tet?

[sarah]

I think Roland just said it in passing and didn't really mean it. ;)

:lol:

[Wuducynn]

I think Roland just said it in passing and didn't really mean it. ;)

:lol:

How convenient for you... ;)

[obscurejude]

Monte, it is a stretch, but I don't mind taking it. The other people you mentioned didn't shoot themselves in the face while thinking, "Does this make me a gunslinger." Roland didn't speak as Dinh through their mouths either.

But, it wasn't really a definitive statement. I just love the Pere and I stand by what I said. I think he would have had a more pronounced role in the series if King had thought about sooner.

Plus, I was drunk when I posted. I'm sober now, but I still think of him as part of the tet.

CK, there is a reference. Even if it was in passing (maerlyn), that's still a hell of a thing for Roland to say.

[MonteGss]

If you were hanging out with that tet, wouldn't you want to be a gunslinger too? :) I would've been bugging everyone constantly...asking, "how about now? now am i a gunslinger? please? huh, Roland, huh? pleasee?" :lol:

Anyway jude, I really can see why some could think he was a tet member, I just buy it myself. For me, there were only five members: Roland, the NY trio and Oy. I don't believe the Fadda shared anything with the others like they shared between themselves. :)

[Wuducynn]

CK, there is a reference. Even if it was in passing (maerlyn), that's still a hell of a thing for Roland to say.

Right-on.

[Wuducynn]

If you were hanging out with that tet, wouldn't you want to be a gunslinger too? :) I would've been bugging everyone constantly...asking, "how about now? now am i a gunslinger? please? huh, Roland, huh? pleasee?" :lol:

Anyway jude, I really can see why some could think he was a tet member, I just buy it myself. For me, there were only five members: Roland, the NY trio and Oy. I don't believe the Fadda shared anything with the others like they shared between themselves. :)

Wouldn't the dinh of the ka-tet know if someone is a member or not? Him saying that Callahan is a member wouldn't be said lightly now would it?

[MonteGss]

Roland also said he wasn't a member of his own tet. Roland says lots that doesn't seem to be true or make any sense. So, in your line of thinking, the Pere is a member but not himself I guess. Makes sense to me. :)

[obscurejude]

.

[jayson]

i'd consider the Pere as a pledge. he shared in their adventures, and certainly could have been part of their tet had he gone further. he sacrificed his life for their quest, but i agree with monte that ultimately, he did not share all that the five he named did share. he may have been ka-tet with them for a time, but in the end i do not think he was part of their tet.

[Wuducynn]

Roland also said he wasn't a member of his own tet. Roland says lots that doesn't seem to be true or make any sense. So, in your line of thinking, the Pere is a member but not himself I guess. Makes sense to me. :)


He never said he wasn't a member of his own ka-tet. He said he thought he wasn't a full member. There is a big difference there. But you are right, that just because Roland says or thinks something doesn't necessarily make it so, but I think there is some serious evidence pointing towards Roland being right about this.

[obscurejude]

Wow. Jayson and I finally disagree, such is life. Are we ka- tet as fellow toneslingers? I wonder if we have lost the ability to share khef.

[jayson]

Wouldn't the dinh of the ka-tet know if someone is a member or not? Him saying that Callahan is a member wouldn't be said lightly now would it?


Roland also said he wasn't a member of his own tet. Roland says lots that doesn't seem to be true or make any sense. So, in your line of thinking, the Pere is a member but not himself I guess. Makes sense to me. :)

i think we often take what roland says to be literally true of the way his world works metaphysically, but he is just a man and he is ultimately not always correct. that's what's great about these discussions, there are no wrong answers...except yours of course matthew :lol:

[Wuducynn]

Maybe you can be a partial member or honorary member something like that...

[Wuducynn]

except yours of course matthew :lol:

True, but at least I'm wrong with style, man. Thats what counts.

[jayson]

Wow. Jayson and I finally disagree, such is life. Are we ka- tet as fellow toneslingers? I wonder if we have lost the ability to share khef.

it was bound to happen. i'd say as long as the process of playing outweighs the product of playing, than yes, we are ka-tet on that quest. for me it's all about the improv.

[jayson]

except yours of course matthew :lol:

True, but at least I'm wrong with style, man. Thats what counts.

yes, you have your own style for sure.:thumbsup:

[obscurejude]

Yeah, the pere had like an honorary Phd in gunslinging.

[jayson]

he was definitely a fellow warrior of the white with them, just not a gunslinger.

[Wuducynn]

Monte just hates Catholics. Especially Russian and Irish ones..

[MonteGss]

I agree, everyone can have an opinion of Roland's words...but CK's are always wrong. :)

I think if we start getting into, full member, partial member, yesterday member, only on Thursday member, only for one book member we are really getting away from what ka-tet seems to mean.

For me, there is one ka-tet for the majority of the series and it has only five members. They do however have lots of important friends that help them along the way but those friends don't share the same goals/bonds/thoughts and ka.

[obscurejude]

Jayson, the Pere died in a way that was consistent with his life. He died by the gun, proclaiming the way of the White, to the end that Jake might reach the Tower. Sounds gunslingerish to me.

[jayson]

let's list all of the side-members according to importance... that ought to piss monte off.:idea:

[MonteGss]

Well put me on that list. :D
Since all it takes is wanting to be a gunslinger. :lol:
I totally am part of the tet. :)

[jayson]

Jayson, the Pere died in a way that was consistent with his life. He died by the gun, proclaiming the way of the White, to the end that Jake might reach the Tower. Sounds gunslingerish to me.

not if the only person he ever slung a gun on was himself. he definitely kills for the white, but a gunslinger is a VERY specific thing. pere callahan is not that. he COULD be trained to be that, but remember who led the charge into the Pig, not the Pere, but the boy gunslinger.

[Wuducynn]

Well put me on that list. :D
Since all it takes is wanting to be a gunslinger. :lol:
I totally am part of the tet. :)

I always thought you were...at least thats what I've been reporting to the head honchos in Sombra all the time...

[MonteGss]

Well put me on that list. :D
Since all it takes is wanting to be a gunslinger. :lol:
I totally am part of the tet. :)

I always thought you were...at least thats what I've been reporting to the head honchos in Sombra all the time...

Is that who keeps following me? I'm sorry to say I busted their asses just this morning. The crows are having a fine breakfast now. :)

[obscurejude]

Guys, I've got to go eat breakfast. I look forward to seeing where all this goes. (Yes it is 1 in the afternoon here)

Remember who gave last rites to the boy gunslinger.

[MonteGss]

The Rev Harrigan blessesd the two of them, didn't he? Does that make him a gunslinger too? :lol:

[jayson]

that only makes him a priest, not a gunslinger. that jake was superstitious and/or religious doesn't make the Pere anymore a gunslinger than anyone else.

[Wuducynn]

I've got to say I'm riding the fence on this one. I really can see both sides.

[obscurejude]

Rev Harrigan is a gunslinger- he drops gawd bombs.

[Wuducynn]

Reverend Earl Harrigan rocks. :harrier:

[obscurejude]

Seriously though, in some ways the term gunslinger is very general. Even King has described Roland as a "sort of Knight figure." While there is something insanely appealing about a literal gunslinger, I think it more or less means a protector of the white. Eld used his sword, Roland used his guns, Callahan used the skolpadda and a crucifix. Thats why I mentioned last rites. I sometimes think of Roland, as well as all the tet, as saint figures (so does Jean, I think). That's where I was coming from earlier, although I realize that most of you will disagree.

[Jean]

yeah, you're right... though for me, he moves towards saintliness by overcoming the gunslinger in himself... thus, probably, giving the idea of gunslinging a whole new meaning (or, maybe, a very old meaning, given the intricacies of time warps: the gunslingers as we see them might be degenerated elite, moved on together with the world)


Monte just hates Catholics. Especially Russian and Irish ones..
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif Monte - you see how he is trying to drive a wedge between us (taking it into consideration that I'm the only Russian Catholic not only in residence, but in existence... well, almost)? Don't give in to his foul manipulations!

[obscurejude]

Interesting Jean. I've often thought the same thing in regards to gunslingers. As always, very good thoughts.

[MonteGss]

yeah, you're right... though for me, he moves towards saintliness by overcoming the gunslinger in himself... thus, probably, giving the idea of gunslinging a whole new meaning (or, maybe, a very old meaning, given the intricacies of time warps: the gunslingers as we see them might be degenerated elite, moved on together with the world)


Monte just hates Catholics. Especially Russian and Irish ones..
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif Monte - you see how he is trying to drive a wedge between us (taking it into consideration that I'm the only Russian Catholic not only in residence, but in existence... well, almost)? Don't give in to his foul manipulations!

Jean, CK is always causing problems like this. I think you guys should ban him. :D :lol:

I have the power of The White within me Jean and I won't let him bring us down.

(though i am for and with The White, i am not a member of the tet...full, partial or sometimes) :D

[Mark]

Wasn't the term An-tet for someone who becomes part of the ka-tet for a while, like Susan did?

[Brice]

AN-TET: The term tet refers to people linked by the same destiny or goals. An-tet implies an intimate emotional link. It can also imply sexual intimacy.

[Mark]

Well, i certainly hope Callahan wasn't An-tet by definition of the last one...

[Wuducynn]

Well, i certainly hope Callahan wasn't An-tet by definition of the last one...

Shut up, you know he turned you on. All that white hair and scarred....mmmmmmmmm

[LadyHitchhiker]

How smart was he? I would like your take on it. This is a thread I had seen elsewhere but I find it a fascinating topic.

I think he is probably around dolphin intelligence.

I know some people say animals aren't intelligent, but I think they have a different kind of intelligence that can't be measured necessarily in human terms, but let's discuss!!!

:D

[Letti]

Like a monkey or a bit more.

[jayson]

Like a monkey or a bit more.

Maybe a bit more, but I like monkeys so I like this answer. Oy was definitely extremely intelligent, but still an animal, like monkeys.

[Wuducynn]

Ape level..which is a bit more than a monkey.

[jayson]

then again, Oy appears to be smarter than some people I've met, particularly some with whom I work.

[Wuducynn]

Right, we're speaking in generalities of course. I know some human folk that my cats are smarter than. Like most of the population of Fall River, MA for instance, which every third person is straight out of an episode of The Jerry Springer Show.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Oy is at the very least as intelligent as Linus (my siamese mix)

[jayson]

Right, we're speaking in generalities of course. I know some human folk that my cats are smarter than. Like most of the population of Fall River, MA for instance, which every third person is straight out of an episode of The Jerry Springer Show.

you don't have to tell me, i live in Florida. Oy could prob teach High School here.

[Wuducynn]

And do better than most of the teachers too.

[LadyHitchhiker]

:roflma:

He could win the upcoming election by a landslide because for one thing, he's far more attractive than anyone who's already running for president.


Oy for President!

[Wuducynn]

Again Oy is smart. So he wouldn't want to be a politician.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Yes yes you're absolutely right...

[mia/susannah]

Right, we're speaking in generalities of course. I know some human folk that my cats are smarter than. Like most of the population of Fall River, MA for instance, which every third person is straight out of an episode of The Jerry Springer Show.

I tend to agree. You should work with the people that I do. My place of emloyment could be a Jerry Springer episode. :panic:

[Wuducynn]

You should work with the people that I do.

I guess I shouldn't! :lol: One of the things about where I live now and where I work is being surrounded by smart folk.

[Letti]

Like a monkey or a bit more.

Maybe a bit more, but I like monkeys so I like this answer. Oy was definitely extremely intelligent, but still an animal, like monkeys.

I love all animals really but I am not fond of monkeys somehow. I don't really know why. Maybe they are too similar to humans.

[obscurejude]

Liz, I wrote a paper on intelligent animals and how that constitutes the necessity for classical virtues in their lives, being that they are necessarily community based. I could e mail it to you if you're interested. A third of it is on dolphins- I agree with your parallel with oy. :thumbsup:

[LadyHitchhiker]

Ooooooooooooooh Jude I would love it!!!!

Anybody else got a take on this lovely Oy agreement fest?

[Jean]

can't it be posted? or attached to a post as a .doc file if it is very big?

[LadyHitchhiker]

Please please please???

[razz]

Oy's gotta be pretty intelligent. probably around 70-90? he doesn't get distracted, and he does more than just repeat people. he's loyal, and jake and him could communicate telepathically.

[Roland number 19]

In terms of human intelligency, I think Oy would be almost like a preteen, to a degree. Oy clearly felt compassion and a will to learn more about what was going on, and the whole speach thing was always going for him.

I'm guessing an actual number would have to be... hmmm... well, Bush is allegedly 125, right? So... more than?

[razz]

if bush is 125, i'm off the scales.

[LemurJones]

Oy seems smart, but... I wouldn't put him to dolphin-smart, because I think dolphins might be as smart or smarter than humans.

Oy can be lemur-smart, though. We even sort of look alike. *lemurpreen*

[The Lady of Shadows]

In terms of human intelligency, I think Oy would be almost like a preteen, to a degree. Oy clearly felt compassion and a will to learn more about what was going on, and the whole speach thing was always going for him.

I'm guessing an actual number would have to be... hmmm... well, Bush is allegedly 125, right? So... more than?

oh please, maybe bush can bowl 125. :lol:


if bush is 125, i'm off the scales.

i am so not going here. :)


Oy seems smart, but... I wouldn't put him to dolphin-smart, because I think dolphins might be as smart or smarter than humans.

Oy can be lemur-smart, though. We even sort of look alike. *lemurpreen*

okay, lemur can preen. but i think oy might just have you beat. can you communicate telepathically? :thumbsup:

[Brice]

Oy is almost certainly smarter than 99% of the people in my day to day life. :lol:

[jayson]

certainly smarter than my co-workers

[The Lady of Shadows]

certainly smarter than brice's bosses :)

[Brice]

Well, there's a surprise! :lol: A fuckin tack hammer is smarter than my bosses.

[obscurejude]

can't it be posted? or attached to a post as a .doc file if it is very big?

I don't like to make things available for everyone to see. The paper is based on the book: Dependent Rational Creatures, Why Humans Need the Virtues by Alisdair MacIntyre. Great book if you're interested in these types of things.

[LadyHitchhiker]

You could still transfer it as a .doc file to me anyways through me e-mail :P

[obscurejude]

You could still transfer it as a .doc file to me anyways through me e-mail :P

I sent it to you three times, you said you couldn't get it to work. I don't what else to do dear liz. :couple:

[The Lady of Shadows]

ryan post it to rapidshare.com and then email the link to liz. it's private and she's the only one who will have the link. you can then delete it after she downloads it or leave it there and they delete it after 90 days of inactivity.

i have an account there and use it all the time for just these times. :)

[LadyHitchhiker]

It's worth the shot... :D

[Tony_A]

Oviously, Oy is a very intelligent creature, otherwise he'd never have survived so long through the story.

He was invaluable to Roland in finding Jake when he'd been kidnapped by Gasher, he introduced himself as a member of the ka-tet to the villagers of Bryn Sturgis, and Roland himself kew at the end that Oy was not simply imitating humans when he reacted to things he heard, saw, and felt. He also said his version of Roland's name as he died, something he never did.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I hate when people assume that just because someone's an animal they lack intelligence. Sure, their view of the world is limited, but I don't think they lack intelligence.

I think Oy's view of the world was a lot wider than the average animals.

[Letti]

My favourite is when Oy winks... that's incredible.
Did he learn it from the humans?
Anyway the fact that he winks to show his understanding (to make no noise) tells a lot about his IQ.

[Tony_A]

My favourite is when Oy winks... that's incredible.
Did he learn it from the humans?
Anyway the fact that he winks to show his understanding (to make no noise) tells a lot about his IQ.

I liked that as well. But nothing really brings Oy's intelligence out more than his actions and reactions during the final volume, IMO

[Letti]

My favourite is when Oy winks... that's incredible.
Did he learn it from the humans?
Anyway the fact that he winks to show his understanding (to make no noise) tells a lot about his IQ.

I liked that as well. But nothing really brings Oy's intelligence out more than his actions and reactions during the final volume, IMO

Yes, but I would say those parts showed how rich his emotional world was inside him.

[Tony_A]

My favourite is when Oy winks... that's incredible.
Did he learn it from the humans?
Anyway the fact that he winks to show his understanding (to make no noise) tells a lot about his IQ.

I liked that as well. But nothing really brings Oy's intelligence out more than his actions and reactions during the final volume, IMO

Yes, but I would say those parts showed how rich his emotional world was inside him.

Very true. I did bristle a bit when [King referred to Oy as an idiot savant

I would never characterize Oy that way.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I would never either. Oy was smarter than rainman...

[LadyHitchhiker]

'Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawake'

[sinstar]

I see it this way.
Oy was as smart as every other member of the tet.

I mean sure, he can't communicate through voice as well as the rest of them...but does being a mute human make you stupid?
Just because you can't understand the French tourguide doesn't make them any less intelligent that you, am i right?

Oy clearly displays a lot of emotion, and just plain intelligence in most situations.

[Jean]

Oy was as smart as every other member of the tet.
except Susannah http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif
The rest of them are indeed on approximately the same level.

[ladysai]

'Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawake'

That's an awesome quote, Lady.
Who said it?

[Tony_A]

I see it this way.
Oy was as smart as every other member of the tet.

I mean sure, he can't communicate through voice as well as the rest of them...but does being a mute human make you stupid?
Just because you can't understand the French tourguide doesn't make them any less intelligent that you, am i right?

Oy clearly displays a lot of emotion, and just plain intelligence in most situations.

I don't know if you consciously did this, but you pretty much just compared Oy to both Nick Andros and Tom Cullen from The Stand, and I think it's quite an apt comparison.

Oy was shunned and driven out from his own kind because of the way he was, just as Nick and Tom were. Oy didn't find his soul mate and acceptance/love until he ran across Jake and his tet, just as Nick/Tom found each other and then eventually found Ralph and the rest of what was to become the Free Zone.

[sinstar]

I see it this way.
Oy was as smart as every other member of the tet.

I mean sure, he can't communicate through voice as well as the rest of them...but does being a mute human make you stupid?
Just because you can't understand the French tourguide doesn't make them any less intelligent that you, am i right?

Oy clearly displays a lot of emotion, and just plain intelligence in most situations.

I don't know if you consciously did this, but you pretty much just compared Oy to both Nick Andros and Tom Cullen from The Stand, and I think it's quite an apt comparison.

Oy was shunned and driven out from his own kind because of the way he was, just as Nick and Tom were. Oy didn't find his soul mate and acceptance/love until he ran across Jake and his tet, just as Nick/Tom found each other and then eventually found Ralph and the rest of what was to become the Free Zone.

Wow i guess i did. Nick was my favorite character in that series, so subconciously i must have been thinking of him as a comparison.

[LadyHitchhiker]

'Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawake'

That's an awesome quote, Lady.
Who said it?

I can try to find out! :D

[razz]

Anatole France

[LadyHitchhiker]

Heeeeeeeey I was just going to post that.... my computer's being slow though.

[LadyHitchhiker]

i wonder if sk has any pets?

[stone, rose, unfound door]

then again, Oy appears to be smarter than some people I've met, particularly some with whom I work.

Exactly what I thought! :)

[razz]

in fact we shouldn't question why some animals are so intelligent, but why some people are so dumb.

[jayson]

in fact we shouldn't question why some animals are so intelligent, but why some people are so dumb.

Law of averages?

[Letti]

in fact we shouldn't question why some animals are so intelligent, but why some people are so dumb.

It's really easy to be dumb.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

Anyone knows the answer to razz's very clever question?

[Letti]

I have answered it above. ;)

[stone, rose, unfound door]

True, Letti, but sometimes, I feel that people prefer to try and do something more difficult, so why can't it work with cleverness?

[Letti]

Do you mean they choose the more difficult way instead of the easier one because of the lack of cleverness?

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I don't actually understand why people sometimes choose the most difficult way but I don't think it's out of lack of cleverness. That'd be totally dumb, wouldn't it? :)

[LadyHitchhiker]

My head's spinning. :panic: :onfire:

[turtlex]

Um, wasn't sure where to post this. My girl sent me this link, with a note saying "Could this be the inspiration for Oy?" - It's a Raccoon Dog.

http://holamun2.com/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/raccoon-dogs.jpg

[Woofer]

WOAH!

[Sir_Boomme]

Um, wasn't sure where to post this. My girl sent me this link, with a note saying "Could this be the inspiration for Oy?" - It's a Raccoon Dog.

http://holamun2.com/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/raccoon-dogs.jpg

just read in the paper today about these cuties... so sad:
1,500 Chinese raccoon dogs die from tainted feed
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6070406

[Brainslinger]

They look almost like my minds eye version of Oy. (Except less stripy.)

[theBeamisHome]

ummm... so are they raccoons or dogs? and please don't tell me they're hybrids..

[Brainslinger]

I don't think they are hybrids. I think they're a species all to themselves but they may be related to raccoons. Alternatively they could be members of the mustilidae family which has a lot of diverse members. (I.e. weasels, stoats, otters, ferrets, martens (yes they're animals. There are pine martens (http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=Pine+Marten&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title) in Scotland. Beautiful animals.) , mink, badgers, wolverines, polcats etc.)

The snout doesn't seem like a mustilid to me though. For some reason the version of Oy in the picture I've been working on is more ferret like though, although it's not quite my mental image. I decided to go with it though as it's an alternative. And I can't be bothered redrawing it. :)

[Jean]

I don't think they are hybrids. I think they're a species all to themselves but they may be related to raccoons.
Yes, they are called billibumblers (Procyon Ursinus Sapiens).

[Brainslinger]

Ursinus. You and your bears. ;)

[Jean]

Oh, it's a scientific fact. Some also add "felis canis", but it renders the name way too long.

[alinda]

:wtf:

[theBeamisHome]

hmm.. well i read the article and it says they are dogs bred for their raccoon-like fur...

what about Bumblius Williamus? thus, Billy bumblers

[TLC]

these are the guys that are skinned in China for their fur :(

[Brainslinger]

these are the guys that are skinned in China for their fur :(

Are you speaking of those horrific images?

I was shocked when I saw something like that. I don't think it was the 'coon-dogs, I saw but it was messed up.

Don't read if you don't want to read what I saw:
They showed the skinned animal lying there.... then it made a noise or moved. (They skin them alive cos they reckon it retains the fur quality.) I didn't much like the method of dispatch they use in Mink farms either but it is a lot more humane to be fair and likely painless, if heartless.

[theBeamisHome]

omg :scared:

[Jean]

I would gladly do the same to those who do that which is mentioned in that spoiler.

Guys, if we must discuss this, let's do it in Displeased and Bothered, ok? Maybe the mods in charge here would see fit to move those posts there, too, because they make this thread way too painful and really truly tragic, and I am not sure that's what it is supposed to be.

[Daghain]

You beat me to it, Jean. I was just coming in here to get the thread back on topic. :)

[Wuducynn]

I'm not kidding. I want a real billy-bumbler. If you're one of those genetic engineers and you're reading this thread for some reason, please make me a billy-bumbler.

[theBeamisHome]

hmmmm :orely:
i am a science nerd and i love genetics.... maybe... i can mix parrot talking dna with a raccoon-dog dna.... hmm... gotta work on this... to the lab!!

[Aaron]

I went ahead and just created a separate thread for this, since it is an interesting topic. So have at it, folks! :D

[Brainslinger]

Guys, if we must discuss this, let's do it in Displeased and Bothered, ok? Maybe the mods in charge here would see fit to move those posts there, too, because they make this thread way too painful and really truly tragic, and I am not sure that's what it is supposed to be.

My apologies.

[Wuducynn]

http://holamun2.com/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/raccoon-dogs.jpg

Wow! That's almost exactly what I think of when I think of billy-bumblers. Just a little sleeker in the body.

[turtlex]

Found these - some are lighter weight and more Oy-esque.

http://www.canids.org/gallery/Popup19383.jpg
http://www.keskkond.eu/images/pilt98.jpg
http://animal.discovery.com/guides/mammals/habitat/tempforest/gallery/raccoondog_main.jpg

[Talitha Unwin]

OMG, that`s Oy brought to life!

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/Saphira_78/TAMH8254.jpg

What beautiful cute little fellas they are. :wub:
I`d really like to know if SK knew about those when he wrote about Billy-Bumblers.

I won`t bring this thread off topic again by stating what I think about people who wear real fur (not to mention those who kill animals for that purpose), but man, when I hear things like these above mentioned, it gives me a real hard time.... :(

OK, now back to topic.

[tjglos]

do an image search for a 'red panda' its how i imagine oy. and they are super cute

[Letti]

OMG, that`s Oy brought to life!

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/Saphira_78/TAMH8254.jpg

Yeah, it's almost my Oy in my head.

[theBeamisHome]

the wet one is the Oy in my head.. with gold fur rings around his eyes of course lol

[TLC]

love the pics! they're all so cute!

[Bob26003]

So let's get down to brass tax......... How much for the bumbler?

Where can I get one?

Are they good pets?

[The Lady of Shadows]

get in line my new friend, get in line.

btw, LOVE your av!

[LadyHitchhiker]

I am so in love!!!!!!!!!!!!! :huglove: Thank you for sharing these lovely pictures!!!

[Wuducynn]

Now if they could only talk like a billy-bumbler, it would be perfect.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Maybe they will talk in the future....

[turtlex]

Has anyone ever encountered a Raccoon Dog? Maybe they talk now.

[LadyHitchhiker]

They should definitely talk now.

[Wuducynn]

Has anyone ever encountered a Raccoon Dog? Maybe they talk now.

Yeah. I'd think we'd have heard about that already if they did.

[turtlex]

Has anyone ever encountered a Raccoon Dog? Maybe they talk now.

Yeah. I'd think we'd have heard about that already if they did.

Oh, well, I'm not on any kind of Raccoon Dog Newsletter or anything, so it could have happened and I'd have missed it completely. :)

[Wuducynn]

Talking dogs? Unh hunh.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Well you know they've covered up bigfoot for all these years ;)

[tjglos]

definately how i picture a bumbler

[Brice]

I don't think they are hybrids. I think they're a species all to themselves but they may be related to raccoons.
Yes, they are called billibumblers (Procyon Ursinus Sapiens).

Confirming your belief that they are related to bears: these are the only species of dog that hibernate in the winter.

[Jean]

see? what did I say!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear4bis.gif