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CyberGhostface
12-10-2007, 09:33 AM
(Spoilers throughout)

In Dark Tower 7, Walter's desire to see Roland dead is equaled only by wanting to go to the Tower. He hates him.

In Gunslinger Born, Walter sees him more as a nuisance than anything else, and while he wants him dead, its more to ensure that his plans and the plans of the King succeed rather than any personal vendetta.

So, do you think something happened that intensified Walter's hatred or do you think it was just a gradual progress? Maybe it has to do with Gabrielle's death as Walter suggested?

Wuducynn
12-10-2007, 09:53 AM
I'm guessing because at the point in the saga that the The Gunslinger Born deals with he doesn't view Roland as a real threat to his own plans, he seems to have convinced himself that Roland will be fairly easy to have taken out or to take out himself.

jayson
12-10-2007, 10:00 AM
I'm guessing because at the point in the saga that the The Gunslinger Born deals with he doesn't view Roland as a real threat to his own plans, he seems to have convinced himself that Roland will be fairly easy to have taken out or to take out himself.

Precisely. By the time of DT-7 Walter has seen Roland persevere for long enough that what began as annoyance has blossomed into full-blown hatred. Of course by this time Walter has his own designs on the Tower, but I think he feels if he cannot get to it than killing Roland and keeping him from it makes it acceptable.:shoot:

Patrick
12-10-2007, 12:55 PM
That is a great question, CyberGhostface. Thanks for posting it.

Management stuff:

I added the "radioactive" icon and the word "SPOILERS" into the title, so now people can speak freely without using the spoiler markers in this thread.

By the way, to the extent that this discussion leans toward the comic, we'll leave it in this forum. If it ends up being more of a book discussion, we can move it over to another forum.

Now back to you...

Wuducynn
12-10-2007, 01:46 PM
Yeah, nifty Patrick. Now whats your opinion on the subject?

CyberGhostface
12-10-2007, 02:17 PM
I suppose my question is if the comics will ever directly address the two's antagonism or just leave it up for the readers to decide.

Matt
12-10-2007, 02:19 PM
I've almost gotten to the point where I am convinced Walter was trying to help Roland.

"cry the fuck off man...you never do and you never will"

Wuducynn
12-10-2007, 02:37 PM
I've almost gotten to the point where I am convinced Walter was trying to help Roland.

"cry the fuck off man...you never do and you never will"

Hmmm, now THERES an opinion I've not heard before. Interesting. Maybe part of Walter wanted to help him along with hating him?

jayson
12-10-2007, 03:03 PM
I've almost gotten to the point where I am convinced Walter was trying to help Roland.

"cry the fuck off man...you never do and you never will"

Hmmm, now THERES an opinion I've not heard before. Interesting. Maybe part of Walter wanted to help him along with hating him?

Perhaps once Walter came to the conclusion that he wanted the Tower for himself he found it more pragmatic to help Roland than to hinder him. Of course he'd ultimately have to deal with him, but I suspect he had designs on using Mordred to accomplish that. :shoot:

CyberGhostface
12-10-2007, 03:03 PM
If Walter was trying to help Roland, it was probably for his own personal gain.

jayson
12-10-2007, 03:04 PM
If Walter was trying to help Roland, it was probably for his own personal gain.

I think that's pretty much the only reason Walter does anything.

Wuducynn
12-10-2007, 03:06 PM
Perhaps once Walter came to the conclusion that he wanted the Tower for himself he found it more pragmatic to help Roland than to hinder him. Of course he'd ultimately have to deal with him, but I suspect he had designs on using Mordred to accomplish that. :shoot:

Yep, I think you're right on about that.

Mattrick
12-10-2007, 03:09 PM
I haven't read the graphic novels but from my views on the books alone.


Walter hates Roland because he knows Roland's fate.

In The Gunslinger Walter has deep knowledge on what awaits Roland and what Roland will find at the top of the tower. He even tells him 'if you choose me of Jake your fate it sealed' or something along those lines. Walter knows that his fate is also sealed (his fate with Mordred, can't fight ka) but his hate or Roland is coupled with his pleasure for knowing Roland will hurt over and over again for all eternity. Of course, he gets to see the build up but isn't around for the conclusion.

jayson
12-10-2007, 03:13 PM
If I can make a bit of a LotR comparison, I see Walter as something of a Saruman to Los' Sauron. Walter is a genius at using others to achieve his needs, but like Saruman, he seizes upon opportunities by being able to play both sides of the fence. I agree wholeheartedly with Matt's thought that Walter is, on some level, helping Roland. There are a few times, Oz comes to mind, when it seemed Walter clearly had the upper hand and could have put Roland in a bad way, but he didn't. He needed Roland. If he wanted the Tower for himself, he'd need Roland to deal with Los before he had Mordred deal with Roland. My question is, did he really think he'd be able to stop Mordred at that point?

CyberGhostface
12-10-2007, 03:16 PM
Nothing indicated in the later books that Walter knew what awaited Roland at the Tower (which is why I don't get the whole "you resume your quest" bit in the Revised), but there was certainly nothing to indicate that Walter knew about his fate at the hands of Mordred.

jayson
12-10-2007, 03:18 PM
but there was certainly nothing to indicate that Walter knew about his fate at the hands of Mordred.

nothing clearly stated perhaps, but perhaps implied by the ending. the ending begs the question of whether or not this trip to the tower was the first for Roland or just another loop. if it was not the first, than walter has made the loop as well and perhaps has the means to remember at least some of it. that said, he sure doesn't act like he remembers his doom.

Matt
12-10-2007, 03:22 PM
He may not have kicked over in the other loop(s), that could be another thing that is different about it.

or perhaps, he knows and that's why he is trying so hard to stop Roland (as someone said, that would be his best interest)

But I gotta tell you guys, the more I read that last bit at the end of the revised version, the more I am convinced that Walter was really trying to tell Roland to STOP---and not solely because of the tower.

jayson
12-10-2007, 03:24 PM
But I gotta tell you guys, the more I read that last bit at the end of the revised version, the more I am convinced that Walter was really trying to tell Roland to STOP---and not solely because of the tower.

Ok, now I'm gonna have to read it again after I finish my re-read of S.o.S.

CyberGhostface
12-10-2007, 03:34 PM
nothing clearly stated perhaps, but perhaps implied by the ending. the ending begs the question of whether or not this trip to the tower was the first for Roland or just another loop. if it was not the first, than walter has made the loop as well and perhaps has the means to remember at least some of it. that said, he sure doesn't act like he remembers his doom.

Well, Walter has to be there because Roland resets his loop at the time when he's pursuing him across the desert. I think thats always going to remain the same. Its Roland's choices thereafter that change.

Being that Walter is semi-immortal, having lived in multiple worlds for over hundreds of years, I think he might be slightly aware of being in a 'loop'. But when we saw his thoughts in DT7, nothing indicated that he knew at all or that Mordred was going to kill him. I'm just going to chalk up the whole "resuming your quest" as sloppy writing on King's part, being as 90% of the changes in the Revised clash somewhere later in the series.

Matt
12-10-2007, 03:43 PM
Hmmm...he could know Roland was looping without specific knowledge of the meeting with Mordred imo.

I'm not real high on the revised but it didn't seem to conflict too much with me. I think the reason folks tumbled to the "loop" was because the guy was so animated about it in the first place.

cozener
12-10-2007, 06:48 PM
I've almost gotten to the point where I am convinced Walter was trying to help Roland.

"cry the fuck off man...you never do and you never will" I had begun to think that myself up until he talked about how much he hated him in DT7 but I didn't think he was trying to help Roland for Roland's sake. His ideal scenario would have been to reach the Tower when Roland did. He would then hang back until the battle between the CK and Roland was over, hoping for the favorable circumstance of having only one, hopefully severeley weakened foe, to deal with.

In the Gunslinger he seemed to be frustrated with Roland for never quitting; he is stuck on the same wheel as Roland. He knows that Roland is on the cusp of figuring out what will stop the cycle but Walter knows the near dullard that Roland is partially because Walter is conscious of the fact that he is stuck in the wheel. He knows that there's just a few figurative steps that Roland is so close to piecing together from the bleakness of his imagination and it infuriates Flagg's enormously creative mind that he can't quite grasp something that he himself could so easily snatch out of the air. Perhaps he has to have Roland succeed in getting to the top to find his own top room.

Matt
12-10-2007, 07:01 PM
Makes perfect sense. Also makes you wonder what would have happened if Walter had reached the tower.

Or even this, maybe its something different for everyone. So it wouldn't even be the same thing at all. :panic:

Childe 007
12-10-2007, 08:27 PM
He is Roland's "Mirror Image".

Only when Marten/ Walter/ Flagg looks in the mirror they see what they were born to destroy - and have always failed - it would quite natually develop into hatred. And they have for all eternity chased and tried to duplicate themselves - look at Flagg's obsession with Nadine in the Stand and "The Man In Black"'s attempt with Sylvia Pittson. He was constantly trying to "snag" a Mordred.

He hates Roland because while Roland exists - so must He. And he hates looking in the mirror.

(And Matt - grandbabies are awesome!)

jayson
12-11-2007, 04:34 AM
Makes perfect sense. Also makes you wonder what would have happened if Walter had reached the tower.

Or even this, maybe its something different for everyone. So it wouldn't even be the same thing at all. :panic:

I definitely feel it would be different for everyone, and then what becomes of them is a matter of how much their psyche can take what the Tower shows them. Given what Roland saw in his Tower, what do you think would become of Walter in there?:rose:

Jean
12-11-2007, 04:39 AM
"All is silent in the halls of the dead. All is forgotten in the stone halls of the dead. Behold the stairways which stand in darkness; behold the rooms of ruin. These are the halls of the dead where the spiders spin and the great circuits tall quiet, one by one."

that's, approximately, how I imagine the inside of the Tower as seen by Walter.

Mister E
12-11-2007, 12:38 PM
Why WOULDN'T he? Those eyes? That hair? He's FABULOUS.

Wuducynn
12-11-2007, 02:05 PM
Why WOULDN'T he? Those eyes? That hair? He's FABULOUS.

Walter is hotter. Roland's got nothing on him, so that can't be it.

Patrick
12-11-2007, 03:33 PM
Yeah, nifty Patrick. Now whats your opinion on the subject?
:lol: I'm wondering this:

I suppose my question is if the comics will ever directly address the two's antagonism or just leave it up for the readers to decide.
I hope the comics will provide more insight into TMIB, either through the main stories or through the Robin Furth stories in the back of the issues.

I think this story is not Roland's first loop. I also don't recall (no book handy) anything to make me believe that every loop starts in exactly the same place.

Wuducynn
12-11-2007, 05:24 PM
I hope the comics will provide more insight into TMIB, either through the main stories or through the Robin Furth stories in the back of the issues.

I think this story is not Roland's first loop. I also don't recall (no book handy) anything to make me believe that every loop starts in exactly the same place.

It would be nice for more insight, but to me it seems pretty obvious that it wasn't until later where Roland was effecting his plans that, that is what was causing the hate in Walter towards Roland.

LadyHitchhiker
12-11-2007, 09:36 PM
I was under the impression also that Walter partly wanted to help Roland and that perhaps he himself was even an instrument of not only anti-ka but of ka as well...

Wuducynn
12-12-2007, 07:12 AM
I was under the impression also that Walter partly wanted to help Roland Where in the saga (including the comics of course) does something Walter says or does leads you to this impression?


perhaps he himself was even an instrument of not only anti-ka but of ka as well...

This is definitely true and he even knows it. Look at what he says when he meets Callahan in the Way Station.

Dud-a-chum?
01-13-2008, 12:25 PM
He hates everyone, he was abused as a small child.

Brice
01-13-2008, 03:31 PM
He hates everyone, he was abused as a small child.



Being abused doesn't equal hating everyone. There are plenty of people who were abused as children and grow up to be perfectly fine. It's something deeper than that IMO.

Dud-a-chum?
01-13-2008, 05:15 PM
He hates everyone, he was abused as a small child.



Being abused doesn't equal hating everyone. There are plenty of people who were abused as children and grow up to be perfectly fine. It's something deeper than that IMO.


My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I guess the point I was trying to make was that I think King tried to simplify the Flagg character way too late by giving him a backstroy at the end of the series. Yes, there must be more to it, but King would like us to believe that Walter is siomehow human and missunderstood. Sorry, King, forgot my violin.

CyberGhostface
01-14-2008, 11:04 AM
Yes, there must be more to it, but King would like us to believe that Walter is siomehow human and missunderstood. Sorry, King, forgot my violin.

And that's a bad thing because...?

IMO, Walter's backstory was one of the few good things King did with the character in the final book.

Jean
01-14-2008, 11:35 AM
Yes, there must be more to it, but King would like us to believe that Walter is siomehow human and missunderstood. Sorry, King, forgot my violin.

And that's a bad thing because...?
because it was so straightforward and oversimplified. As if he was trying to patch something up in a hurry. Like an example out of a magazine on Popular Psychology for Housewives. Totally unlike (and unworthy of) any other study of a character/soul Mr.King had ever undertook in the past.


IMO, Walter's backstory was one of the few good things King did with the character in the final book.
just the opposite for me: one of the few - maybe even the only - things that made me feel really disappointed. (though it does occur in King novels towards the end - a wish to patch something up in a hurry, I mean.)

CyberGhostface
01-14-2008, 04:11 PM
Maybe King could have spent more time on Flagg's past had he decided to give him more than one chapter in the entire 800+ pages of the last book. (Or three chapters in the final 1300+ pages of the last three.) But that's another argument entirely.

My only problem was how brief it was. It was probably three sentences. I mean, look at Harry Potter 7, where there was an entire chapter dedicated to Snape's early life.

But if the problem was that Flagg had a bad childhood...well A.) Lots of these people do, and B.) King used it a couple of times in his works. Blaze, for example (one of my favorite Bachman books), had "bad childhood" written all over it, and Jack Torrance having an abusive childhood was a major focal point of his character. Besides, its not as if King did something cliche like "My parents didn't give me enough attention." Flagg was raped. Not many villains can say that.

Considering King was all but pulling down his pants and taking a huge crap on a character whose legacy started when King was in college, the least he could've done was imbue the character with a shred of humanity and give a glimpse at who he was before he was spreading his brand of evil across the world.

I don't see how fleshing out Flagg's backstory could be more disappointing than the Crimson Geriatric, the total abandoning of continuity from the related books, and of course the emo spider with bad bowels.

Dud-a-chum?
01-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Maybe King could have spent more time on Flagg's past had he decided to give him more than one chapter in the entire 800+ pages of the last book. (Or three chapters in the final 1300+ pages of the last three.) But that's another argument entirely.

My only problem was how brief it was. It was probably three sentences. I mean, look at Harry Potter 7, where there was an entire chapter dedicated to Snape's early life.

But if the problem was that Flagg had a bad childhood...well A.) Lots of these people do, and B.) King used it a couple of times in his works. Blaze, for example (one of my favorite Bachman books), had "bad childhood" written all over it, and Jack Torrance having an abusive childhood was a major focal point of his character. Besides, its not as if King did something cliche like "My parents didn't give me enough attention." Flagg was raped. Not many villains can say that.

Considering King was all but pulling down his pants and taking a huge crap on a character whose legacy started when King was in college, the least he could've done was imbue the character with a shred of humanity and give a glimpse at who he was before he was spreading his brand of evil across the world.

I don't see how fleshing out Flagg's backstory could be more disappointing than the Crimson Geriatric, the total abandoning of continuity from the related books, and of course the emo spider with bad bowels.


Couldn't dissagree with you more. First of all, I haven't read anything in the final DT book that changes any of the previous connections made with the series; if anything, King leaves alot of these loose ends open for more potential fleshing out in later DT-related works. In my opinion, that is a far cry from simply "abandoning" something.

Here is why I dislike the Flagg "paragraph" in book seven: this character has been portrayed in every other subsequent book, DT or not, as a demon-like character. A wizard, an entity, almost a 'force', if you will, rather than a person. I anxiousely turned every Flagg-related page throughout the series waiting to see what next would come in his master plan, I got chills everytime he popped up again after a seeming demise, and I was awestruck with the genious linking-together of everything Flagg has done throughout King's writing career. Flagg was a very powerfull being that darkled and tincted, he was everywhere and everyone, he had so many faces and names, and he always seemed to be a step ahead of the game, which made him a very delightfully evil villain (I would even argue that Flagg is King's best character)

Now, put all of that mistery and mystique up against what we get in DTVII: a lost little abused boy who learned magic tricks. What? What?! That may have worked, if King had done this switcheroo a long time ago, but the entire series long, Flagg has been spoken about as if he and Roland would ultimately have a showdown, not to mention that Flagg would at least have a fighting chance. Look, I'm just saying that it was very dissapointing, alright? Flagg was a very powerfull wizard, or so we thought; his character was written in a way that made him gave this magestic quality, and after being built up for so long, to see him re-written as merely Walter, a human being too weak to even escape a baby were-spider, is more than just poor writing, it's contradictory and confusing. Frankly, I was pissed when I first read that section of the book. I asked around on the .net community if that was truly "it" to Walter's legacy, and indeed it was confirmed to me. A huge dissapointment.

Flagg wasn't supposed to be the sympathetic character, and for King to really think it would be accepted by everyone to change what Flagg was that late in the game is beyond me.

CyberGhostface
01-14-2008, 05:30 PM
Well...fuck. I just lost my entire reply. I'll just have to reinstate the basic gist I suppose.

1. I agree with you that Flagg is one of King's best characters, and that King really fucked up when he killed him off. Probably one of the worst things he's ever done. As for "Flagg has been spoken about as if he and Roland would ultimately have a showdown, not to mention that Flagg would at least have a fighting chance", I never, ever (and never will) disagree with that Flagg should have fought Roland. Flagg's backstory (and a little bit of his monologue regarding Gabrielle and wanting to reach the Tower) was the only thing I liked about the chapter.

2. I understand where you're going with the "Making Flagg out to be weaker than the way he was originally written". I suppose (like most things) it comes down to a matter of opinion. For the most part, I happen to enjoy it when villains are given sympathetic backstories. Not all the time (such as making Dracula a romantic hero :nope:) but I feel that humanizing Flagg was a good thing. King had already hinted at it with his scene in Book 5, so there was a bit of leverage prior. And I always assumed that he was once a human who had become corrupted even before the final DT novels.

3. As for King forgetting prior material...well, for starters, he took out Insomnia and said "Don't take this seriously, folks. Its a mind trap. The turtle's song was muddled. Fiddle-dee-dee." and all but admitted that he was throwing out most of the continuity. "I can't work with this, so I'll just give the fans some silly garbled explanation and they'll eat it all up." Peter Straub himself apparently achknowledged that the continuity of Black House was discarded. And Eyes of the Dragon...since Flagg is dead, having a story where Dennis and Thomas confront him is pretty moot. Since Flagg is dead, the only way we could see it would be a flashback story where Flagg would probably have to kill them off or at the very least run away at the end. And although he's tying up some loose ends in the comics, its still pretty sloppy (to me at least) that he didn't wrap them up in the first place with the final three books.

Dud-a-chum?
01-14-2008, 08:53 PM
Well, I do agree with what you have said, then. I guess the only thing we don't agree on is whether or not it was a good idea to give Flagg a backstroy. The bottom line is this: in my opinion, when you give such an iconic character too much humanity, you have just stripped him of what made the character great to begin with; you have stripped him of his power. That is my opinion, I think King did exactly that with Flagg, and I will never understand why he destroyed such a wonderfully written character.

Letti
01-14-2008, 11:30 PM
I have a feleing that Walter hates everyone who makes any real problems for him.

And for my part I love it that we could get a glance into Water's backstory. It didn't disturb me at all.

Dud-a-chum?
01-14-2008, 11:47 PM
It didn't really disturb me, it just angered me

Letti
01-14-2008, 11:52 PM
It didn't really disturb me, it just angered me

How is that possible?

CyberGhostface
01-15-2008, 08:43 AM
How is it impossible for him to be angered by a writing decision he didn't like?

Jean
01-15-2008, 08:48 AM
I don't see how fleshing out Flagg's backstory could be more disappointing than...
no, not fleshing out itself, but the way it was done - I tried to make it clear in my post, judging by what I've read from you in this thread, we agree here. not on the following, though, but that's another story:

...the Crimson Geriatric, the total abandoning of continuity from the related books, and of course the emo spider with bad bowels

Matt
01-15-2008, 09:14 AM
We've been discussing this a lot but it seems to me King spent a bit of time "humanizing" all the villains in the story. Perhaps that was the point. Flagg was just a man...sure, a talented man but just a man after all.

It is perhaps a lesson in the power of "word of mouth" and the idea that people rarely live up to the hype about them.

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 12:22 PM
We've been discussing this a lot but it seems to me King spent a bit of time "humanizing" all the villains in the story. Perhaps that was the point. Flagg was just a man...sure, a talented man but just a man after all.

It is perhaps a lesson in the power of "word of mouth" and the idea that people rarely live up to the hype about them.

Well, isn't that just dandy, :P

Flagg was written as a powerfull force of nature in every other book except DTVII, and I am supposed to buy this? Had the Flagg character been written in a much vaguer style, then mahybe I would by that his whole thing is just smoke and mirrors, but even the comic books show Flagg with at least somewhat amount of real power. Why is this suddenly gone from Walter when we meet him in DTVII?

Now, if these things can be explained later on through the comics (Which they won't), then I will accept whatever explination that King givces, but to simply change the character completely and not explain anything about it is careless, and wishy-washy of the writer.

Matt
01-15-2008, 12:26 PM
"written" being word of mouth right?

I know there was a bit of demonstration of his power in The Stand, but it was mostly just tricks.

Then he uses the doors in the Tower series...not sure what text ever made it seem like he was any more than he actually was.

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 01:08 PM
"written" being word of mouth right?

I know there was a bit of demonstration of his power in The Stand, but it was mostly just tricks.

Then he uses the doors in the Tower series...not sure what text ever made it seem like he was any more than he actually was.


His ability to change appearance is more than just mortal disguises such as masks and costumes.

In W&G, he is able to dissapear completely in an instant. If that was a parlour trick, then I am impressed. (Btw, if he were merely projecting his own image, or something similar, why did he gasp when he was shot at in the first place?)

Roland clearly says that Walter is a wizard, and he even questions whether or not he is even human at all. Flagg obviousely must have demonstrated some awesome abilities for Roland to even question Martin's mortality.

In the comics we see that he uses magic to literally physically change his appearance, and he even opens up portals to walk through. That's some really impressive smoke-and-mirror effects!

Letti
01-15-2008, 01:10 PM
Can human begins become wizards?
Andway he was a wizard in the Eyes of thr Dragon, too.

jayson
01-15-2008, 01:13 PM
In W&G, he is able to dissapear completely in an instant. If that was a parlour trick, then I am impressed. (Btw, if he were merely projecting his own image, or something similar, why did he gasp when he was shot at in the first place?)

...

In the comics we see that he uses magic to literally physically change his appearance, and he even opens up portals to walk through. That's some really impressive smoke-and-mirror effects!

Agreed. He seems to be able to, at the very least, make magic doors. This makes him at least as powerful as Sheemie, and I don't mean that as sarcastically as it could be taken. Walter has more power than most.

Matt
01-15-2008, 01:24 PM
Sure, but is that anything against the spider boy? I don't think it is.

Roland himself says that stories get overblown after time--I just believe that Flagg was mostly a cut rate magician.

Sorry about that guys. :lol:

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 01:32 PM
Sure, but is that anything against the spider boy? I don't think it is.

Roland himself says that stories get overblown after time--I just believe that Flagg was mostly a cut rate magician.

Sorry about that guys. :lol:


Everything I posted in my last comment should give you an idea of what Flagg can actually do. Given this evidence, I think Flagg could have gotten away from Mordred, that's just my opinion. Even if Flagg wasn't as powerfull as he was made out to be, it doesn't mean he was completely mortal, either, and yet that is what he is "revealed" to be in book seven.

I guess what I'm saying is: had Flagg not been described these ways in the past, I would have no problem in believing that he could be taken out by Mordred so easily, but since there was evidence to the contrary in the earlier books, it to me created a big contradiction in the character.

Matt
01-15-2008, 01:38 PM
I can see that, all I am saying is that the "evidence" may be something we took on faith as opposed to actual fact.

I am not saying the guy wasn't talented, he clearly was but I believe most of his successes were through misdirection.

If he was a powerful as we had been lead to believe, why even wear the useless metal hood? Shouldn't he have not been worried about being taken over?

Dud-a-chum?
01-15-2008, 01:44 PM
I can see that, all I am saying is that the "evidence" may be something we took on faith as opposed to actual fact.

I am not saying the guy wasn't talented, he clearly was but I believe most of his successes were through misdirection.

If he was a powerful as we had been lead to believe, why even wear the useless metal hood? Shouldn't he have not been worried about being taken over?

That's exactly my point, the character is all-too-mortal there, where as in every other book he is larger-than-life. Makes no sense.

Matt
01-15-2008, 01:47 PM
My position is the "larger than life" aspect of the man is mostly not true.

I understand it read that way but that doesn't mean it is the way it actually was.

CyberGhostface
01-19-2008, 12:44 PM
You don't become Satan's representative when the world ends if you're just a competent magician.

LadyHitchhiker
01-29-2008, 12:31 AM
Very nice point, Cyber!

Matt
01-29-2008, 01:02 PM
You don't become Satan's representative when the world ends if you're just a competent magician.

Unless the "satan" in question is as crazy as a shit house mouse :lol:

For instance, I am reading a book right now where the main bad guy is going around eating his enemies (pre historic Indian book). The ruler of the bad folks knows he is just a man but allows folks to consider him a monster because it furthers his cause.

Does that make any kind of sense?

Storyslinger
01-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Flagg has allowed others to give him titles that he, himself, doesn't refuse.

CyberGhostface
01-29-2008, 03:05 PM
So basically we should ignore most of Flagg's achievements and assume that he's no more powerful than a homeless man in his underwear? The guy was powerful enough that A.) God himself intervened to bring him down and B.) He managed to escape said intervention by God. When he was at his peak, he was definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Matt
01-29-2008, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure why it always has to go so far :lol:

I never said Flagg was powerless--he was far from that.

Just that he may have had the benefit of a well built reputation in many cases.

CyberGhostface
01-29-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm not saying that Flagg hasn't mislead people about his shortcomings, but he's far, far more than a "cut rate magician".

Matt
01-29-2008, 03:50 PM
So we agree to be somewhere in between "cut rate" and "first class"

I'm cool with that. :couple:

Storyslinger
01-31-2008, 09:31 AM
So basically we should ignore most of Flagg's achievements and assume that he's no more powerful than a homeless man in his underwear? The guy was powerful enough that A.) God himself intervened to bring him down and B.) He managed to escape said intervention by God. When he was at his peak, he was definitely a force to be reckoned with.

I agree with that, just that he allowed others to imagine him even more powerful

Wuducynn
01-31-2008, 10:15 AM
I'm not saying that Flagg hasn't mislead people about his shortcomings, but he's far, far more than a "cut rate magician".

Same here. I think Flagg is a human that became a demon, over his long life, and at different times has been more powerful than others. On the other hand he likes having the rep to help keep folk in line too.

jayson
01-31-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm not saying that Flagg hasn't mislead people about his shortcomings, but he's far, far more than a "cut rate magician".

Same here. I think Flagg is a human that became a demon, over his long life, and at different times has been more powerful than others. On the other hand he likes having the rep to help keep folk in line too.

agreed. he was a man at birth, he became something else in time.

Storyslinger
02-01-2008, 11:30 AM
I'm not saying that Flagg hasn't mislead people about his shortcomings, but he's far, far more than a "cut rate magician".

Same here. I think Flagg is a human that became a demon, over his long life, and at different times has been more powerful than others. On the other hand he likes having the rep to help keep folk in line too.

agreed. he was a man at birth, he became something else in time.

Yes, exactly.

LadyHitchhiker
02-01-2008, 12:04 PM
I don't think Walter really loved Gabrielle.... she was a means to spawn his evil baby...
Like in The Stand ;)

CyberGhostface
02-01-2008, 01:58 PM
I don't think Walter really loved Gabrielle.... she was a means to spawn his evil baby...
Like in The Stand ;)

There's nothing to suggest that he wanted Gabrielle for a baby. If she was means for a greater purpose, it was to spur Roland into fighting Cort. And even at that, I think if Walter was able to love anyone, he'd probably love Gabrielle.