Stephen King "Lettered" Editions-Define

[Randall Flagg]

Define in chronological order what meets the Collectors definition of "Lettered Editions".
The A-Z books may be easy, but the Colorado Kid (3 versions 1/33) may be considered a "Lettered", or may not. Is a "PC" of the S/L Gunslinger a lettered?
Define, discuss, debate.

[Cook]

PC lettered gunslinger would depend if his signature is above or below his name ?
I think...

[Randall Flagg]

PC lettered gunslinger would depend if his signature is above or below his name ?
I think...
That did not make sense.
Go read the first post, and submit the list that you believe defines all of King's Lettered Editions. Once you post the list, feel free to annotate any item.

[Cook]

PC lettered gunslinger would depend if his signature is above or below his name ?
I think...
That did not make sense.
Go read the first post, and submit the list that you believe defines all of King's Lettered Editions. Once you post the list, feel free to annotate any item.

Jesus Jerome... It was a question about gunslinger PC, You did say define, discuss, debate.

Lettered signature is shown below his printed name.

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/519/medium/DT1_SL_Lettered.JPG

Numbered signature is shown above his printed name.

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/519/medium/DT1_SL_Numbered.JPG

Publishers signature is shown below his printed name.

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/519/DT1_SL_Pub.JPG

So my question is... (since I don't know)
Does the signature placement on the signature page define Lettered or Numbered?

[tippy4]

Good question Jerome.

I would consider TCK 1/33 as a "Lettered" in the sense it is the "better" of the two versions of the same S/L title by the same publisher. By using the same logic, I guess the Postscripts #10 with slipcase is a "Lettered" version too.

The Gunslinger PC copy.....I would not consider it a S/L as it is no different from the numbered version.

Here is my list...feel free to hack it apart and debate. I left a few ambiguous items on it.

1980 Firestarter 26 Lettered
1981 Cujo 26 Lettered
1981 Danse Macabre 15 Lettered
1982 Dark Tower I Gunslinger 52 + ?
1982-85 The Plant 26 + 200 x 3 years = 678 (NOT including proof copies)
1982 Whispers - 26 Lettered
1983 Christine 26 Lettered
1983 Frankenstein 26 Lettered
1984 Eyes Of the Dragon 52 Lettered
1984 The Talisman 70 AE's=(SKC lists the following: 30 AC's, lettered-indeterminate, 70 AE's, 5 designer, 1,200 #'d)
1985 Cycle of the Werewolf (8 presentation copies)
1985 Skeleton Crew 52 Lettered 1 skin
1987 Dark Tower II 35 Lettered
1988 Letters from Hell 26 Lettered
1989 Dolan’s Cadillac 1,000+250+26 = 1276 (SKC lists numerous states with indeterminate #'s) Total=>1,276
1989 The Killer Inside Me 26 Lettered
1990 The Stand 52 Lettered
1991 Dark Tower III 26 Lettered
1991 Signatures 26 Lettered
1993 House Next Door (1993 edition by Olde New York Press) 26 Lettered
1996 Regulators 52 Lettered
1996 The Girl Next Door 52 Lettered
1997 Cujo guitar (2 shapes, 10 Dreadnaught shape and 14 Grand Auditorium shape, 125 each) = 250
1997 Six Stories 200 roman numbered for the author's private use
1998 Legends 50 + 200 = 250
1998 The Best of Cemetery Dance 52 Lettered
1999 The New Lieutenant's Rap 500+24 Proofs=524
2000 Dystopia 26 Lettered
2000 From a Buick 8 52 Lettered
2000 Life in the Cinema 52 Lettered
2003 Borderlands 5 - 52 Lettered
2004 Quietly Now 52 Letered
2004 Salems Lot 300 + 80 + 15 + 10 = 405
2004 The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon 125+ 15 = 140
2005 Transgressions 26 Lettered
2005 Great Ghost Stories 52 Lettered only
2006 Secretary of Dreams: Volume One: 52 Lettered
2007 The Green Mile 52 Lettered
2007 Postscripts #10 200 (numbered with slipcase)
2007 The Colorado Kid 99 #'ed 1-33 x 3 artists (in traycase)
2009 He Is Legend 52 Lettered
2010 The Secretary of Dreams Volume Two 52 Lettered
2010 Riding The Bullet 52 Lettered
2010 Legacies 52 Lettered
2011 J.N. Williamson's Illustrated Masques - 52 Lettered
2011 Full Dark, No Stars 52 Lettered
2011 Blockade Billy 52 Lettered
2011 The Big Book of Necon 52 Lettered
2011 IT: The 25th Anniversary Edition 52 Lettered

[Shannon]

Oh, I like this question. I have to go to dinner, but when I get back I shall answer.

[Brice]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.

[neosatus]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.

Pretty much, via the KISS method.

I don't think PC copies of Slinger should be considered Lettered either way. Further more, I don't even consider PC copies of any edition as official copies of said edition. I know why they are needed--as extras in case there is damage to one or more of the copies of the set. But after all copies have been distributed, any remaining PC copies should be destroyed. I don't like how all of these PC are left running around, inflating the number of the set. Publishers should stick to the actual number that is released, not use these PC copies to supplement their income.

[Brice]

I have no problem with PCs being out there. I do think they should be marked as such though.

[Randall Flagg]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.
Then provide the list.

[Brice]

Okay, here's the best I've been able to put together so far. I'm sure there are mistakes. I only have one of these myself so I'm relying on (limited) research...mostly the catalog, but here goes...

Firestarter, Cujo, Danse Macabre, Dark Tower I, Whispers, Christine, Frankenstein, Eyes Of the Dragon, Skeleton Crew, Dark Tower II, Letters from Hell, Dolan’s Cadillac, The Killer Inside Me, The Stand, Dark Tower III, Signatures, House Next Door, Dark Tower IV, Desperation, Regulators, The Girl Next Door, The Best of Cemetery Dance, Dystopia, From a Buick, Life in the Cinema, Borderlands 5, Dark Tower V, Quietly Now, Dark Tower VI, Dark Tower VII, Transgressions, Great Ghost Stories, Secretary of Dreams: Volume One, The Green Mile, The Little Sisters of Eluria, He Is Legend, The Secretary of Dreams Volume Two, Riding The Bullet, Legacies, J.N. Williamson's Illustrated Masques, Full Dark, No Stars, Blockade Billy, The Big Book of Necon, IT: The 25th Anniversary Edition, The Wind Through The Keyhole

[Shannon]

Signed Limited, Lettered Editions

Firestarter
Cujo
Danse Macabre
The Gunslinger: The Dark Tower I
The Plant: Part 1
Whispers: Volume 5, Numbers 1/2
Christine
Frankenstein, Or, The Modern Prometheus
The Plant: Part 2
The Eyes Of The Dragon (black)
The Eyes Of The Dragon (red)
Skeleton Crew
The Plant: Part 3
Letters From Hell
Dolan's Cadillac
The Killer Inside Me
The Stand
Signatures
The House Next Door
The Regulators
The Girl Next Door
Legends: Stories By The Masters Of Modern Fantasy
The Best Of Cemetery Dance
Dystopia
From A Buick 8
A Life In Cinema
Borderlands 5: An Anthology Of Imaginative Fiction
Quietly Now
The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon: A Pop-Up Book
Transgressions
Great Ghost Stories: Tales Of Mystery And Madness
The Secretary Of Dreams: Volume One
The Green Mile
He Is Legend: An Anthology Celebrating Richard Matheson
The Secretary Of Dreams: Volume Two
Riding The Bullet
Legacies
Full Dark, No Stars
Blockade Billy
IT
The Big Book Of Necon
The Century's Best Horror Fiction
J.N. Williamson's Illustrated Masques

And apparently some of the Dark Tower books were lettered also? I've never seen or heard about these (they're also not in the Catalog).

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.

I agree totally. A letter is a letter. A number is a number, even if it is a Roman number.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

And apparently some of the Dark Tower books were lettered also? I've never seen or heard about these (they're also not in the Catalog).

? There is a picture of one on this page.

[TwistedNadine]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.

I agree totally. A letter is a letter. A number is a number, even if it is a Roman number.

And if its marked PC - or out of series - then it is a PC with an undertermined amount floating out there. The only variable is one that has nothing on the number line at all. Then you wonder is it a PC or did the person responsible for writing in the numbers / letters forget to mark what it is (which I have heard of). But the only way to find out if your unmarked copy is an actual number or letter is find out where all the other ones are. Good luck with that.

I think a far more intriguing question is collectors definition of "First Edition" not to be confused with "First TRADE Edition". You brought this up in another post mentioning how you consider NLR and Plant to be first editions. This got me thinking 'cause I had never really put them in that category - in my mind keeping S/Ls separate as their own editions.

Some quotes from Wiki defining First Edition as:
"First edition most often refers to the first commercial publication of a work between its own covers, even if it was first printed in a periodical"
and
"A small minority of book collectors, particularly in the science fiction field,[citation needed] hold that the earliest bound copies of a book—promotional advance copies: bound galleys, uncorrected proofs, advance reading copies sent by publishers to book reviewers and booksellers—are the true first edition."

Using the first definition NLR, Plant and Proofs would then not be First Editions since they are not considered "commercial" at the time of printing. However, I have always personally considered a proof to be the true first edition - other than the original manuscript from the author.

I am far more curious to see the opinion and viewpoints of other collectors on how they define First Edition.

[biomieg]

I agree with Brice and Alan. A lettered book contains a 'limitation letter' on the appropriate page. One shouldn't confuse 'lettered' with 'the most desirable and rarest state of a book', even though the rarest books are often lettered. We just need more categories.

[Shannon]

... besides the gunslinger.

[tippy4]

Okay, here's the best I've been able to put together so far. I'm sure there are mistakes. I only have one of these myself so I'm relying on (limited) research...mostly the catalog, but here goes...

Firestarter, Cujo, Danse Macabre, Dark Tower I, Whispers, Christine, Frankenstein, Eyes Of the Dragon, Skeleton Crew, Dark Tower II, Letters from Hell, Dolan’s Cadillac, The Killer Inside Me, The Stand, Dark Tower III, Signatures, House Next Door, Dark Tower IV, Desperation, Regulators, The Girl Next Door, The Best of Cemetery Dance, Dystopia, From a Buick, Life in the Cinema, Borderlands 5, Dark Tower V, Quietly Now, Dark Tower VI, Dark Tower VII, Transgressions, Great Ghost Stories, Secretary of Dreams: Volume One, The Green Mile, The Little Sisters of Eluria, He Is Legend, The Secretary of Dreams Volume Two, Riding The Bullet, Legacies, J.N. Williamson's Illustrated Masques, Full Dark, No Stars, Blockade Billy, The Big Book of Necon, IT: The 25th Anniversary Edition, The Wind Through The Keyhole

There was no lettered Dark Tower IV, V, VI, VII, TLSOE or TWTTK as far as I know.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

There is no FDNS, The Big Book of Necon or IT lettered versions yet. Still waiting on CD releasing them.

[tippy4]

There is no FDNS, The Big Book of Necon or IT lettered versions yet. Still waiting on CD releasing them.

You are being nitpicky...they will exist eventually.

[tippy4]

I agree with Brice and Alan. A lettered book contains a 'limitation letter' on the appropriate page. One shouldn't confuse 'lettered' with 'the most desirable and rarest state of a book', even though the rarest books are often lettered. We just need more categories.

Or we need less.

Frankly, I think we should just lump S/Ls of the same title into the same spot.

I think it would be just fine if you lumped all nine Colorado Kid versions into one spot.

[herbertwest]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.

I agree totally. A letter is a letter. A number is a number, even if it is a Roman number.


I aint collecting limited editions, but i always considered lettered and numbered edition ass mentioned above

[Randall Flagg]

Subject to debate, and change, IMO a "lettered" edition can only be an edition that is lettered A-Z, and or AA-ZZ That's it. No matter what the "design" of the book, case size the book can only contain the "Letter(s)". There can only be 26 A-Z lettered and only 26 AA-ZZ copies. Anything else can be a wonderful "edition", but should be noted as a "PC" rendition of the lettered version.
I think TCK was a screwup. There should have been only 26 (or I suppose 52) of each.

[Shannon]

"There was no lettered Dark Tower IV, V, VI, VII, TLSOE or TWTTK as far as I know."

Have you (or anyone else) seen a Lettered DT II or III?

[tippy4]

I have not seen a lettered DT2 or DT3.

[Randall Flagg]

I have not seen a lettered DT2 or DT3.
That is because there were/are none. Unless a person wrote in a letter on one of the possibly blank sig sheets.

[Patrick]

...IMO a "lettered" edition can only be an edition that is lettered A-Z, and or AA-ZZ That's it. No matter what the "design" of the book, case size the book can only contain the "Letter(s)". There can only be 26 A-Z lettered and only 26 AA-ZZ copies. Anything else can be a wonderful "edition", but should be noted as a "PC" rendition of the lettered version.
...This is pretty much how I see the world of Lettered editions as well, although I'd include TCK as well if that is the original intention of the publisher.

Also, I tend to view a Lettered edition that completely matches its sibling Numbered edition to be a money grab. I believe those who purchase Lettered editions ought to get something extra for the higher price they pay.

[BigCoffinHunter]

I'd say Tippy's list looks pretty good. Although you left off the Lettered edition of Cemetery Dance's "Century's Best Horror Fiction." If you want to count books like the Lettered FDNS and IT, then I would add Century's Best since King has already signed the signature sheet for that Lettered edition, even though the release date is still TBD.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

...then I would add Century's Best since King has already signed the signature sheet for that Lettered edition, even though the release date is still TBD.

Motto of Calvin's Corner: No picture, it does not exist. :)

[BigCoffinHunter]

So what about Artist Editions/Copies? Tippy put the AE of Talisman on the list, which I would certainly consider to be the equivalent of a Lettered edition in that it has a completely different signature sheet and had a limited run.

However, I've got one of the Artist's Copies of Eyes of the Dragon marked as 1 of 10 in the book itself. It's certainly different, but I do not know that I would group it along with the Lettered editions. I've always thought of that one in the same terms as my Proof copy of Six Stories (1 of 28 copies). In both of those cases, I always considered the books more than a Numbered but less than a Lettered.

Then again, I have always passed on the opportunity to purchase "Lettered" copies of books that were in no way different than the Numbered edition (Lettered/Numbered The Stand vs. Lettered/Numbered The Regulators) due to the fact that these copies are essentially the same as the Numbereds other than their perhaps being association copies (I had the chance to buy a Lettered copy of The Stand about eight years ago for $1,000.00 over the going rate for a Numbered copy and I balked at the premium).

Of course, I do consider a Publisher's Copy or Presentation Copy of a book with a unique Lettered state to be the same as the Lettered copies of that book. For example, I have a Publisher's Copy of the Lettered state of From a Buick 8 as well as a Presentation Copy of the zippered state of Skeleton Crew, both of which I regard as Lettered editions despite their not having a letter A-ZZ.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

So what about Artist Editions/Copies? Tippy put the AE of Talisman on the list, which I would certainly consider to be the equivalent of a Lettered edition in that it has a completely different signature sheet and had a limited run.


The Talisman AE is not the equivalent of a Lettered edition, because there is an actual Lettered edition with the same signature sheet.

http://www.akyle.f2s.com/images/talisman_6.jpg

[BigCoffinHunter]

I have not seen a lettered DT2 or DT3.
That is because there were/are none. Unless a person wrote in a letter on one of the possibly blank sig sheets.

I've got a copy of DT7 with an unnumbered signature sheet that I suppose could magically become a Lettered :P

[BigCoffinHunter]

I suppose that if one wants to be technical about it, the semantics break down to the difference between a Lettered "Copy" and a Lettered "State." A Lettered The Stand is a Lettered Copy of the Numbered State. My copy of the zippered edition of Skeleton Crew is a Presentation Copy of the Lettered State of that book.

Personally, I see no distinction, provided that the book be the proper state, signed, and not have some sort of damage or defect that caused it to receive a designation other than a Letter (e.g. a Publisher's Copy). Of course, if a Lettered copy has some special provenance that has actually been documented (e.g. a Lettered book's having been given to Stephen King by the publisher who then personally gifted the book to another author, friend, family member, or acquaintance), I suppose that would make me view it differently. However, to view two books of the same state with the exact same signature page as being completely different simply because one has an actual Letter on the sheet and the other a P/C (or equivalent) when the books were taken from the same batch produced during the same run is beyond the distinctions I personally make. I might pay a slight premium to have a Lettered copy over a Publisher's Copy, but not much.

In the case of my Publisher's Copy of the Lettered state of From a Buick 8, the difference literally comes down to a Lettered copy's being marked as such and sold to a Cemetery Dance customer directly at retail price and my Publisher's Copy being marked as such and sent to Barry over at Gauntlet Press free of charge by Richard Chizmar from Cemetery Dance, after which Barry sold it to me.

I view my Artist's Copy of The Eyes of the Dragon as slightly different in that it once belonged to the artist (Kenny Ray Linkous) himself, who personally wrote in the limitation by hand prior to giving them away or selling them (at least I'm pretty sure that Linkous wrote it in, although it may have been Alpert). Similarly, I view my Proof copy of Six Stories as slightly different in that Michael Alpert wrote in the Proof designation and limitation by hand. Both of these books have a story that goes along with their inception. Then again, I view my three unsigned, unnumbered PC copies of the Numbered state of Skeleton Crew as completely different from and the lesser of both the Lettered and Numbered states in that it has no King signature. Still, this was by design; these copies were never meant to be signed or numbered.

That copy of DT7 that I have with no number, on the other hand, is a fluke that arose from the person doing the shipping's having accidentally neglected to write in the number before sending it out. Of course, someone could technically identify that as a completely different, rare, "1 of ???" copy that a true completist simply must have if he or she is to claim that his or her Stephen King collection is truly complete; but as I said, I personally do not make such distinctions.

[jemaher]

wow
Good question Jerome.

I would consider TCK 1/33 as a "Lettered" in the sense it is the "better" of the two versions of the same S/L title by the same publisher. By using the same logic, I guess the Postscripts #10 with slipcase is a "Lettered" version too.

The Gunslinger PC copy.....I would not consider it a S/L as it is no different from the numbered version.

Here is my list...feel free to hack it apart and debate. I left a few ambiguous items on it.

1980 Firestarter 26 Lettered
1981 Cujo 26 Lettered
1981 Danse Macabre 15 Lettered
1982 Dark Tower I Gunslinger 52 + ?
1982-85 The Plant 26 + 200 x 3 years = 678 (NOT including proof copies)
1982 Whispers - 26 Lettered
1983 Christine 26 Lettered
1983 Frankenstein 26 Lettered
1984 Eyes Of the Dragon 52 Lettered
1984 The Talisman 70 AE's=(SKC lists the following: 30 AC's, lettered-indeterminate, 70 AE's, 5 designer, 1,200 #'d)
1985 Cycle of the Werewolf (8 presentation copies)
1985 Skeleton Crew 52 Lettered 1 skin
1987 Dark Tower II 35 Lettered
1988 Letters from Hell 26 Lettered
1989 Dolan’s Cadillac 1,000+250+26 = 1276 (SKC lists numerous states with indeterminate #'s) Total=>1,276
1989 The Killer Inside Me 26 Lettered
1990 The Stand 52 Lettered
1991 Dark Tower III 26 Lettered
1991 Signatures 26 Lettered
1993 House Next Door (1993 edition by Olde New York Press) 26 Lettered
1996 Regulators 52 Lettered
1996 The Girl Next Door 52 Lettered
1997 Cujo guitar (2 shapes, 10 Dreadnaught shape and 14 Grand Auditorium shape, 125 each) = 250
1997 Six Stories 200 roman numbered for the author's private use
1998 Legends 50 + 200 = 250
1998 The Best of Cemetery Dance 52 Lettered
1999 The New Lieutenant's Rap 500+24 Proofs=524
2000 Dystopia 26 Lettered
2000 From a Buick 8 52 Lettered
2000 Life in the Cinema 52 Lettered
2003 Borderlands 5 - 52 Lettered
2004 Quietly Now 52 Letered
2004 Salems Lot 300 + 80 + 15 + 10 = 405
2004 The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon 125+ 15 = 140
2005 Transgressions 26 Lettered
2005 Great Ghost Stories 52 Lettered only
2006 Secretary of Dreams: Volume One: 52 Lettered
2007 The Green Mile 52 Lettered
2007 Postscripts #10 200 (numbered with slipcase)
2007 The Colorado Kid 99 #'ed 1-33 x 3 artists (in traycase)
2009 He Is Legend 52 Lettered
2010 The Secretary of Dreams Volume Two 52 Lettered
2010 Riding The Bullet 52 Lettered
2010 Legacies 52 Lettered
2011 J.N. Williamson's Illustrated Masques - 52 Lettered
2011 Full Dark, No Stars 52 Lettered
2011 Blockade Billy 52 Lettered
2011 The Big Book of Necon 52 Lettered
2011 IT: The 25th Anniversary Edition 52 Lettered

[jemaher]

it is a bit overwhelming when you see it all together like that

[barlow]

I really don't mean this sarcastically, but I only consider a book lettered if there is actually a letter.

Pretty much, via the KISS method.

I don't think PC copies of Slinger should be considered Lettered either way. Further more, I don't even consider PC copies of any edition as official copies of said edition. I know why they are needed--as extras in case there is damage to one or more of the copies of the set. But after all copies have been distributed, any remaining PC copies should be destroyed. I don't like how all of these PC are left running around, inflating the number of the set. Publishers should stick to the actual number that is released, not use these PC copies to supplement their income.

I don't have a problem with publishers copies as long as they don't get out of control like they did with Dark Harvest! I like the way Grant does them. For example DTII DOTT has a limitation of 850, 800 of which are for sale some of the other 50 are used as replacement copies the remainder are marked author's copies, artist's copies, and publisher's copies, etc. and distributed to those people to present to whomever they want. I think it is cool to get one of these particularly one that went to the author or artist. It would be really cool if it became the norm for these to have additional limitation in them, even if it is hand written, stating this is 1of twelve artist's copies or 1 of 28 publisher copies. I don,t know if Cemetery Dance, Subterranean, or any of the others differentiate out of series copies other than labeling them all PC or how many they usually have but it would be cool to find out! I know I saw one of the PC copies of one of the CD King publications that Glenn Chadbourne illustrated and it had artist's copy written above the PC and was remarqued. I do not know if Glenn wrote this himself in his copies, but how could you not think something like that as a very cool and special copy! Sorry about the long winded post, lettered editions are lettered although roman numeral copies and the tray-cased TCK are not lettered they are the equivalent of the lettered.


Ken

[Tito_Villa]

Glenn wrote that himself, I asked him to

[Sir_Boomme]

actually,

I, V & X are letters, as are P & C

123456789 are numbers

syntax is everything...

O is the only question... is it an O or a 0

[barlow]

actually,

I, V & X are letters, as are P & C

123456789 are numbers

syntax is everything...

O is the only question... is it an O or a 0

I have to admit you have a point there, roman numerals are letterers. The O vs. 0 is easy if you put the / across the zero.

[barlow]

Glenn wrote that himself, I asked him to

Was that a copy that belonged to Glenn or one you owned and asked him to Remarque?


Ken

[Tito_Villa]

Sorry I should have explained better, it was one of Glenn's copies & I asked him to mark it so

[Randall Flagg]

actually,

I, V & X are letters, as are P & C

123456789 are numbers

syntax is everything...

O is the only question... is it an O or a 0
I, V and X are letters, but when used in the Roman numeral system they designate numbers.
0123456789 are the 10 single digit numbers in our "base ten" system.
We as humans likely use the base ten since we have 10 digits on our two hands.
Speaking of numbers Terry, 1's and 0's are what you should be using...:emot-hydrogen:

[Sir_Boomme]

actually,

I, V & X are letters, as are P & C

123456789 are numbers

syntax is everything...

O is the only question... is it an O or a 0
I, V and X are letters, but when used in the Roman numeral system they designate numbers.
0123456789 are the 10 single digit numbers in our "base ten" system.
We as humans likely use the base ten since we have 10 digits on our two hands.
Speaking of numbers Terry, 1's and 0's are what you should be using...:emot-hydrogen:

having received the Latin achievement award two years in a row in high shool way back when Latin was still taught.... I'm aware of the roman numeric system...
and when in ancient rome speaking Latin... I'll use numbers as the romans did... til then, to me... VIX is short for Vixon
:lol1:

01001000 01000001 01001000 01000001 01001000 01000001
- 01010011 01101001 01110010 01000010 01101111 01101111 01101101 01101101 01100101

[hyraxia]

I treat lettered copies as being the same if they're from the same print run... "A-Z, PC, no limitation" etc... all the same... To me a PC copy is an "out of series" copy of the lettered publication, but it is still part of the lettered run. That said, as you know, A-Z sells better than PC, unless said PC copy has some provenance...

[BigCoffinHunter]

I treat lettered copies as being the same if they're from the same print run... "A-Z, PC, no limitation" etc... all the same... To me a PC copy is an "out of series" copy of the lettered publication, but it is still part of the lettered run. That said, as you know, A-Z sells better than PC, unless said PC copy has some provenance...

This may be true, but I also think that PC copies of a lettered state drag down the value of the regular lettered copies, which may be one of the reasons that Lettered copies of Cemetery Dance books frequently sell below the issue price on the secondary market.

[Merlin1958]

I treat lettered copies as being the same if they're from the same print run... "A-Z, PC, no limitation" etc... all the same... To me a PC copy is an "out of series" copy of the lettered publication, but it is still part of the lettered run. That said, as you know, A-Z sells better than PC, unless said PC copy has some provenance...

This may be true, but I also think that PC copies of a lettered state drag down the value of the regular lettered copies, which may be one of the reasons that Lettered copies of Cemetery Dance books frequently sell below the issue price on the secondary market.

This seems a highly debatable point because the "PC" had to be printed to allow for damage, etc. However, I see your point. Fortunately, I do not own any "Lettered" editions which makes it a bit easier for me to share my three beans!! LOL

[Randall Flagg]

Debate some more please.

[2929]

To the point raised previously ("lettered" vs. "lettered state"):

I own several Subterranean Press titles that have the attributes of the lettered state, but do not have a letter on the limitation page. Does the fact that they have a different binding and are traycased make them "lettered" copies?

My take is that, No, they should not be considered such unless they are actually lettered, and that the ones I have should be considered PCs/out of series copies in the lettered state.

[skyofcrack]

A-Z, AA-ZZ are lettered.
PC is PC and not lettered.
Numbered is numbered and not lettered.

PC copies are extras for artist, author, etc...not part of the run.

To the point of first editions, I consider the first appearance of any story: short, novella, novel to be a first edition. I don't consider galley, proof or ARC's since they are promotional tools for review purposes. The exceptions are The Plant (which was signed/numbered and lettered but also given away) and DT7 ARC (which is signed/numbered). The first edition of The Plant 4-6 was the download in 2000. Firsts of short stories are in magazines, fanzines, books, etc...not the collection later on. Night Shift is a first but most of the stories are reprints.

[Randall Flagg]

Are AAA-ZZZ lettered?
To a purist, only A-Z are lettered. Everything else should be considered important and valuable, but nothing compares to 1-26 (or less-see Danse Macabre).

[skyofcrack]

Are AAA-ZZZ lettered?
To a purist, only A-Z are lettered. Everything else should be considered important and valuable, but nothing compares to 1-26 (or less-see Danse Macabre).

As long as their are fewer lettered copies than numbered copies. I agree, it should be 26 maximum.

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

26 maximum lettered for me.

[herbertwest]

A-Z, AA-ZZ are lettered.
PC is PC and not lettered.
Numbered is numbered and not lettered.

PC copies are extras for artist, author, etc...not part of the run.

To the point of first editions, I consider the first appearance of any story: short, novella, novel to be a first edition. I don't consider galley, proof or ARC's since they are promotional tools for review purposes. The exceptions are The Plant (which was signed/numbered and lettered but also given away) and DT7 ARC (which is signed/numbered). The first edition of The Plant 4-6 was the download in 2000. Firsts of short stories are in magazines, fanzines, books, etc...not the collection later on. Night Shift is a first but most of the stories are reprints.

Why would you count DT7 ARC?
It is what it says : an ARC, therefore a promotional tool, numbered or not (recently the limited UK proofs are numbered), signed or not.

[skyofcrack]

A-Z, AA-ZZ are lettered.
PC is PC and not lettered.
Numbered is numbered and not lettered.

PC copies are extras for artist, author, etc...not part of the run.

To the point of first editions, I consider the first appearance of any story: short, novella, novel to be a first edition. I don't consider galley, proof or ARC's since they are promotional tools for review purposes. The exceptions are The Plant (which was signed/numbered and lettered but also given away) and DT7 ARC (which is signed/numbered). The first edition of The Plant 4-6 was the download in 2000. Firsts of short stories are in magazines, fanzines, books, etc...not the collection later on. Night Shift is a first but most of the stories are reprints.

Why would you count DT7 ARC?
It is what it says : an ARC, therefore a promotional tool, numbered or not (recently the limited UK proofs are numbered), signed or not.

Yes, it's promotional but there are only 100 an it's numbered.

Everybody has their own rules of collecting.

[herbertwest]

I would disagree with your classification of it being the first edition because it is 100 copies. The UK proofs of DOCTOR SLEEP & REVIVAL are numbered. Does that make them first edition? For me, proofs/ARC/galleys, are not first editions, even if signed, even if numbered.
Na.
Not IMO.

[skyofcrack]

I would disagree with your classification of it being the first edition because it is 100 copies. The UK proofs of DOCTOR SLEEP & REVIVAL are numbered. Does that make them first edition? For me, proofs/ARC/galleys, are not first editions, even if signed, even if numbered.
Na.
Not IMO.

I was unclear. I don't consider ANY proofs, ARC's as firsts. I just want those in my collection whereas I don't normally collect those books.

Does that make sense? :)

[jhanic]

I would disagree with your classification of it being the first edition because it is 100 copies. The UK proofs of DOCTOR SLEEP & REVIVAL are numbered. Does that make them first edition? For me, proofs/ARC/galleys, are not first editions, even if signed, even if numbered.
Na.
Not IMO.

I was unclear. I don't consider ANY proofs, ARC's as firsts. I just want those in my collection whereas I don't normally collect those books.

Does that make sense? :)

I agree. Just because the ARCs and proofs came out before the trade editions, I don't think anyone would consider them first editions. A first edition, in my opinion, is the first book that is offered for sale to the public.

John

[ap275]

IMO, there are first appearances, such as magazine publications and first editions, which would be first publications in a book format. Regardless what country it was printed in, if was printed in a trade book form first it is a first edition. Then there would be a format distinction, a book can be first printed in paperback, which then would be a first edition and then printed in hardcover, which would be a first hardcover edition of the title. Proofs are not first editions, neither are limited editions unless they were published first or would be first hardcover publication of a novel originally published in paperback.


I would disagree with your classification of it being the first edition because it is 100 copies. The UK proofs of DOCTOR SLEEP & REVIVAL are numbered. Does that make them first edition? For me, proofs/ARC/galleys, are not first editions, even if signed, even if numbered.
Na.
Not IMO.

I was unclear. I don't consider ANY proofs, ARC's as firsts. I just want those in my collection whereas I don't normally collect those books.

Does that make sense? :)

I agree. Just because the ARCs and proofs came out before the trade editions, I don't think anyone would consider them first editions. A first edition, in my opinion, is the first book that is offered for sale to the public.

John

[herbertwest]

I would disagree with your classification of it being the first edition because it is 100 copies. The UK proofs of DOCTOR SLEEP & REVIVAL are numbered. Does that make them first edition? For me, proofs/ARC/galleys, are not first editions, even if signed, even if numbered.
Na.
Not IMO.

I was unclear. I don't consider ANY proofs, ARC's as firsts. I just want those in my collection whereas I don't normally collect those books.

Does that make sense? :)

It does :)

[Randall Flagg]

Bump. Still a great subject for discussion/debate.

[Cook]

Bump. Still a great subject for discussion/debate.

Man Jerome, you were such a dick to me back then...

[Randall Flagg]

Bump. Still a great subject for discussion/debate.

Man Jerome, you were such a dick to me back then...
Funny you say that. As I read the thread this morning, I thought the same thing. Not just you, but others too.
As much as I was "a dick", you were a bit of a "pussy". You'd never take that shit today.


:crow burp:

[Hunchback Jack]

I think previous posts in the thread more or less capture my opinion on this topic, but here's my 2c:


Editions with a letter that are intended to be part of the official limited run (the one of 26 or one of 52 or whatever) are lettered editions.
It is not necessary for the state of the book to be different from the corresponding signed limited edition, if one exists. If it has a letter, is it a lettered edition, even if the book is identical to the signed limited edition is every other respect.
PC copies of the lettered state are "PC copies of the lettered edition" but are not true lettered editions. However, I would argue that they should be, in all aspects other than the replacing of the letter with "PC", "Publisher", etc., identical to the lettered edition, including signatures, traycases, etc. Otherwise, they are not "PC copies of the lettered edition"
Any edition with a numbered limitation, including a roman numeral, is a signed limited.
If there are multiple numbered editions by the same publisher of the same title with different states or limitations, then the fancier/rarer state should be considered a "deluxe signed limited" or some other designation, but not a "lettered edition". (eg. The Windup Girl from SubPress)
A PC copy of a S/L edition state is most definitely *not* a lettered edition.
A copy of the lettered state lacking signature, signature sheet, or some other physical part of the lettered edition such as slipcase or traycase, is probably a manufacturer's "second", and not considered a limited or lettered edition in any way.

[Randall Flagg]

Very well thought out post.

[Hunchback Jack]

Thanks, Jerome.

(I have books in all of these various states, so I've spent way too much time thinking about this) :D

HBJ

[biomieg]

Minor pet peeve of mine: when discussing numbered vs. lettered editions, don’t designate the numbered edition as ‘the signed limited’. Both editions are limited so you always need to state whether it’s the numbered or lettered S/L edition gou are referring to :smile:

[Hunchback Jack]

Minor pet peeve of mine: when discussing numbered vs. lettered editions, don’t designate the numbered edition as ‘the signed limited’. Both editions are limited so you always need to state whether it’s the numbered or lettered S/L edition gou are referring to :smile:

Good point.

[biomieg]

Sorry for the typo BTW (I’d silently edit it but you already quote-preserved it for eternity) :wtf:

[lotuz]

Neat thread!

As far as defining a “lettered” edition, I'll say that I agree with most of HBJ's points:


I think previous posts in the thread more or less capture my opinion on this topic, but here's my 2c:


Editions with a letter that are intended to be part of the official limited run (the one of 26 or one of 52 or whatever) are lettered editions.
It is not necessary for the state of the book to be different from the corresponding signed limited edition, if one exists. If it has a letter, is it a lettered edition, even if the book is identical to the signed limited edition is every other respect.
PC copies of the lettered state are "PC copies of the lettered edition" but are not true lettered editions. However, I would argue that they should be, in all aspects other than the replacing of the letter with "PC", "Publisher", etc., identical to the lettered edition, including signatures, traycases, etc. Otherwise, they are not "PC copies of the lettered edition"
Any edition with a numbered limitation, including a roman numeral, is a signed limited.
If there are multiple numbered editions by the same publisher of the same title with different states or limitations, then the fancier/rarer state should be considered a "deluxe signed limited" or some other designation, but not a "lettered edition". (eg. The Windup Girl from SubPress)
A PC copy of a S/L edition state is most definitely *not* a lettered edition.
A copy of the lettered state lacking signature, signature sheet, or some other physical part of the lettered edition such as slipcase or traycase, is probably a manufacturer's "second", and not considered a limited or lettered edition in any way.


There are two points that don’t quite feel right together, for ill-defined reasons:

If it has a letter, is it a lettered edition, even if the book is identical to the signed limited edition is every other respect.
PC copies of the lettered state are "PC copies of the lettered edition" but are not true lettered editions.

Basically, it doesn’t sit well with me that an edition that is identical to a numbered edition, but is labeled with a letter instead of a number, is a “true” lettered edition, but an edition that surpasses the numbered edition in production quality (e.g., finer binding, traycase, etc.) but is labeled with PC instead of a letter is somehow “less than” a lettered edition. That said, I don’t even disagree with those points! It just feels funny. Part of this is because I don’t understand why books like the lettered Gunslinger sell for such a premium over their numbered counterparts. Granted, it seems to be an 80s/90s thing to have the same state of a book designated in different ways, and one that hasn’t held up over time, so maybe that squabble is trivial.

Also, from my personal collecting standpoint (YMMV), I am much more interested in the general production characteristics and qualities of a book than the designation on the limitation page. I happily collect PC editions, and in some cases prefer them (for example, in cases where it is not possible to match a “set” of books, I’d prefer to have all PC copies than unmatched numbers/letters). And if a publisher wants to use Roman Numerals or astrological signs or letters to designate a deluxe state, I don’t have a strong preference (as long as they are consistent!).

This leads into my second point, which is that letters are mostly just designators of a certain state these days, and the state is more important than the designation (in my view). I think you could categorize most books with the following hierarchy:


-1. Prototypes (usually designated as “prototype” or “dummy” or something else)
0. ARC/Proof (usually not designated but sometimes numbered, lately)
1. Ultra-deluxe Limited (generally 15 or fewer copies)
2. Deluxe Limited (26/52 copies)
3. Standard Limited (<1000 copies)
4. Artist/Gift/Publisher Edition (>1000 copies)
5. Trade Hardcover (>2000 copies)


I wasn’t sure where to put Prototypes and Proofs, or even to include them at all, but I like the idea that numbers less than 1 designate books that generally aren’t for public sale, and that their production generally precedes the others.

Generally 1-3 are signed, sometimes 4, so I think it’s appropriate to refer to all of these as "signed limited editions" (this is the one point where I disagree with HBJ’s original list, but which biomieg cleared up).

The number of copies is just a general guess, not set in stone – the important part is the relationship of the states to each other, and the fact that a letter/number/numeral/astrological sign is simply a designation within one or more of those states. Using the Gunslinger example above, I would argue that all 52 Lettered, 500 Numbered, 12 Publisher’s, 40 Author’s, 10 Artist’s and 25 or less Presentation Copies are six different designations within the same state - 3. Standard Limited.

My personal collecting philosophy compels me to try to obtain all the different states of any book that I really like, as well as particularly well-crafted books of any state, which makes it easier for me to not worry about some things (a lettered Gunslinger) and harder for me to not worry about others (a lettered Regulators)…

Anyway, this is a great example of a fun discussion that one can only have with fellow collectors because the rest of the world simply doesn’t care (their loss). I look forward to more opinions 8)

[Hunchback Jack]

Some interesting points you raise!


Neat thread!
There are two points that don’t quite feel right together, for ill-defined reasons:

If it has a letter, is it a lettered edition, even if the book is identical to the signed limited edition is every other respect.
PC copies of the lettered state are "PC copies of the lettered edition" but are not true lettered editions.

Basically, it doesn’t sit well with me that an edition that is identical to a numbered edition, but is labeled with a letter instead of a number, is a “true” lettered edition, but an edition that surpasses the numbered edition in production quality (e.g., finer binding, traycase, etc.) but is labeled with PC instead of a letter is somehow “less than” a lettered edition.


I know what you mean. I had to think for a while before I was happy with both of those points.

The question I come back to when categorizing books is: how would I describe them clearly and honestly if I were selling them on eBay? For the first category above, I would have no problem with describing it as a lettered edition. With the second, I would feel the need to add the qualification that it is a PC copy.

I consider my PC lettered editions to be lettered editions. I keep them on my lettered edition shelves. I order all my lettered editions by author and series; I don't separate the PC from the true. I enjoy them as much as I would a true lettered edition - like you, I also value them for the quality and craftsmanship, not the letter itself. But I still clearly distinguish them - whenever I talk about them - from a true lettered, just as I would distinguish a signed book from an unsigned book. Because it matters from a collecting standpoint.



... the important part is the relationship of the states to each other, and the fact that a letter/number/numeral/astrological sign is simply a designation within one or more of those states. Using the Gunslinger example above, I would argue that all 52 Lettered, 500 Numbered, 12 Publisher’s, 40 Author’s, 10 Artist’s and 25 or less Presentation Copies are six different designations within the same state - 3. Standard Limited.


I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's that simple. Sometimes the rarity or desirability of a particular designation is so different from the others, that it effectively becomes a different state from a collecting standpoint, where the number of copies with that designation becomes its own "print run" or limitation. Look at the red vs black copies of Salem's Lot. Or, potentially, the red vs black numbered copies of Misery.

Now, I'm not saying that those editions stop being "numbered editions" just because of ink color, but the difference in designation is critical. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider an edition to contain both lettered and numbered editions, even if the only difference is designation, because the rarity of the designation is significant.

I'm not saying the value of the lettered edition should be any higher than the numbered, mind you. But just that the designation alone is enough for the lettered edition to qualify as such.

[lotuz]

OOOOOOOO HBJ you have me thinking now :orely:

First:



The question I come back to when categorizing books is: how would I describe them clearly and honestly if I were selling them on eBay? For the first category above, I would have no problem with describing it as a lettered edition. With the second, I would feel the need to add the qualification that it is a PC copy.

This is a good point, and it highlights the difference between how I feel about a book, and how I would describe it to another party. I would definitely include the fact that a book had a designation of PC, and I think if someone didn’t, that would be dishonest. And I would describe a lettered Gunslinger as a “lettered” edition, but I wouldn’t include in the listing “this book is identical in its composition in every way to all other signed editions of this book” even though that’s true. And I wouldn’t do it because I would fear that it would affect the ultimate selling price – so that’s a clear bias right there.

And this second point is fair as well:



I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's that simple. Sometimes the rarity or desirability of a particular designation is so different from the others, that it effectively becomes a different state from a collecting standpoint, where the number of copies with that designation becomes its own "print run" or limitation. Look at the red vs black copies of Salem's Lot. Or, potentially, the red vs black numbered copies of Misery.

In this case I could see two different reasons for desirability:

1. Completist collecting
2. Provenance

1. Being a completist is definitely something I struggle with as a collector. There are two different publishers for which I strive to own every state of every book published (an impossible task for one, and improbable task for the other). And I still haven’t settled internally whether I think that a different designation within the same state counts. I really, really want to say “no” because (a) it’s the differences in the physical composition of the books that makes them more interesting – different bindings, different endpapers, etc., and (b) it’s easier and cheaper. And so that’s where I’ve ended up with my collecting, which also jives with my philosophy of aesthetic appreciation, of really enjoying the book as an object of art. But if my resources were unlimited, I could almost certainly convince myself that I really needed all the designations of all the states.

2. The issue of provenance is, I think, the more interesting one! One thing about signed limited editions versus signed trade editions is that for signed limited editions, the author only ever interacts with one sheet of paper, whereas for signed trade editions, the author interacts with the whole book, and maybe even decides to add an inscription or a remarque or something unique. For trade editions, I definitely subscribe to the theory that the more words an author writes, the better, and if the inscription is not to me personally, the more important the designee is to the author, the better. In a similar way, I can see “added value” to a book because it came from the author’s personal stock of that edition, as opposed to a public sale.

In the case of DT1, I think the premium for some of the designations of the book that are signed and not numbered is kind of nuts. A more interesting copy, to me, is one of the ones that came up for sale not too long ago that was also signed by Grant, or one that has an additional note from either King or Whelan. But that’s just my particular collecting bias, and I also recognize that it’s an incredibly important book for SK collectors and the start of a pretty monumental work. So I agree with your ultimate conclusion:



Now, I'm not saying that those editions stop being "numbered editions" just because of ink color, but the difference in designation is critical. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider an edition to contain both lettered and numbered editions, even if the only difference is designation, because the rarity of the designation is significant.

I'm not saying the value of the lettered edition should be any higher than the numbered, mind you. But just that the designation alone is enough for the lettered edition to qualify as such.

The last note I’ll make in this post is that reasons 1 and 2 drive up the price in different ways, which is kind of interesting. Reason 1 drives up the price because some collectors have odd habits and the limited number of books causes bidding wars for collectors with these habits. Reason 2 is that added value is placed on the chain of ownership of an individual book. And they overlap, of course! :panic:

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

IMO PC = Publisher's Cheating

They have as many as 50 "PC Lettered" editions as well as the official 52 Lettered copies. A certain publishing company who have a thread on here have dozens of PC copies of their books.

[herbertwest]

Arent those "extra copies" also to help in the case that there would be issues with copies (being lost etc)?

[Mr. Rabbit Trick]

Arent those "extra copies" also to help in the case that there would be issues with copies (being lost etc)?

One or two yes.

[Hunchback Jack]

I don't have a problem with publishers making extra copies, and I could believe that for a lettered edition, they might have up to half the print run in extras, to deal with all the things that might happen. It's way cheaper to do that up front than to have to go back to the manufacturer to make extra copies after the fact. I also understand why they might sell them after the fact, too, to recoup the cost.

I don't think the presence of PC copies devalues the lettered edition itself. I think it would be a different story if a publisher released them later as true lettered copies, thereby increasing the size of the official print run.