Dr. Sleep - The Shining Sequel

[The Last Regulator]

Perhaps this is not the right place to post this? But, discuss!

http://dailydead.com/stephen-king-announces-the-shining-sequel-dr-sleep/

[mae]

Not really. We have a thread in the Oracle (news) section. Once the book is published, then we'll read it and discuss it here. Hopefully sooner rather than later :)

[jhanic]

I thought a place to start discussing the books should be started, so here it is!

John

[Merlin1958]

Spoilers already marked? Check. OK so I am like 175 pages in an just have a couple of light observations. Nothing too revealing, nut you can never be too careful these days.

First, king seems to have changed his thoughts regarding Danny and Jack from the original book ending, through his supervised TV movie and now "Dr. Sleep". While young, Danny and Jack' relationship could hardly be described as close, there was at least always the underlying love, understanding a most importantly (IMHO) final redemption of Jack in the end. That seemed to be answered once and for all in King' TV adaption. Now, Older Danny, seems to have lost all touch with those feelings in "Dr. Sleep" and has markedly different views on his Dad. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the reason/motive, given Danny' own life path, just thought it was an interesting touch in Dr. Sleep" and worth mentioning, perhaps discussing.

Second, anyone notice the parallel's to young "Charlie" in "Firestarter" that seem to pervade young "Abra's" childhood? I thought that was kinda cool, too.

Third, there seems to be some underlying character/monster theme from previous novel's to the "True Knot" that I have yet to put my finger on. Again, not "bashing" or suggesting anything wrong here. Just my observations so far. I am greatly enjoying this read, so far. So much so that I woke in the middle of the night to go back to it and read 75 or so more pages before drifting off again. Can't wait to get back to it!!!

I like it better than "Joyland" so far, but that probably has to do more with it's relation to "The Shining" and it's very familiar characters than anything else.

Thoughts?

[Ben Mears]

Only about 100 pages in. So far the True Knot aspect of the story has more of a Joe Hill vibe to it than SK.

[Roseannebarr]

I was thinking the same thing. I feel like the book is very much like NOS4A2 Spanning many years Instead of focusing on a short period of time. I liked the confined element of the shining, i loved all the ghosts in the shining. i felt that the shining was really scary. If you read the afterward by Stephen King and a few reviews it puts you into a better perspective of what to expect from the book. My expectations were so high, that i ended up not liking it so much. Had i known what he was trying to do and why, i think i would of liked it alot better from a literary perspective. I think the shining aspect was to help sell books maybe?

True Knot did nothing for me. I needed more character development for some of the true knot.

[Ben Mears]

I was thinking the same thing. I feel like the book is very much like NOS4A2 Spanning many years Instead of focusing on a short period of time. I liked the confined element of the shining, i loved all the ghosts in the shining. i felt that the shining was really scary. If you read the afterward by Stephen King and a few reviews it puts you into a better perspective of what to expect from the book. My expectations were so high, that i ended up not liking it so much. Had i known what he was trying to do and why, i think i would of liked it alot better from a literary perspective. I think the shining aspect was to help sell books maybe?

True Knot did nothing for me. I needed more character development for some of the true knot.

I read multiple reviews prior to starting the book so I've gone into it with an open mind. Its early but so far the True Knot seems a bit forced.

[Merlin1958]

Funny, I find the True to be A) a very interesting and intriguing "new Twist" and, B) a sort of ying to Danny/Abra's yang. So far at least. In my mind you could almost call the True the "Anti-Shining", which I kinda dig. I'm still only around 200 pages, but there seems to be much more about the True' origins/background to come. With few exceptions, I am really liking how "The Shining" is intertwined by King. Sidewinder, Tony, etc. The only small hiccup (that for some reason is nagging at me) is the different slant on the Danny/Jack relationship. I mean, I pretty well get the reason behind it to a degree, but for some reason it is a little "off-putting". IMHO.

Edit: Perhaps, it is just that it somewhat deflates my personal feeling of a "silver lining, in anotherwise very dark cloud", with regard to the end of "The Shining".

[Br!an]

I'm about to start chapter 4 and like the book so far.

The True Knot is interesting. They haven't been developed much so far.

I like Abra. I like Danny still. I would like more stories of their early development.

So far, so good.

[mistercrowley]

I love every page of it and think the True Knot are excellent villains. It's not a sequel to The Shining in my view. It's a new novel with Danny from The Shining. I love Danny and he's a great character. The Shining could never have a true sequel because of the way it ended. As for being like NOS4A2.... I can't disagree more. That was cartoonish and over the top.

[Merlin1958]

I love every page of it and think the True Knot are excellent villains. It's not a sequel to The Shining in my view. It's a new novel with Danny from The Shining. I love Danny and he's a great character. The Shining could never have a true sequel because of the way it ended. As for being like NOS4A2.... I can't disagree more. That was cartoonish and over the top.

Yes!! I am viewing it more as "The Continuing Story of Danny Torrance".... Well put, MC!! Though I have to admit I really like the way (so far) that King has both paid respect to and woven in the traumatic experiences, Danny endured in the first book.

[Bethany]

I loved it. I never expected it to be a sequel to The Shining but just a continuation of Danny's story. There was not a single scary moment and the characters lacked the depth I'm used to seeing from King. Overall, I was very pleased. The ending was very satisfying, not just for this book, but for Danny.

My only nagging question right now is about something Dick told Danny in The Shining that flat out contradicts Dr. Sleep. If Dick knew the "ghosties" were different and could materialize and hurt Danny, why did he just tell him to close his eyes to make them go away when he was little?

And totally irrelevant to everyone but me, SK's obsession with my life continues. My daughter's nickname is Abba and we are in Anniston :D

[Roseannebarr]

I love every page of it and think the True Knot are excellent villains. It's not a sequel to The Shining in my view. It's a new novel with Danny from The Shining. I love Danny and he's a great character. The Shining could never have a true sequel because of the way it ended. As for being like NOS4A2.... I can't disagree more. That was cartoonish and over the top.

When I was comparing it to NOS4A2, I was talking about the scope or time frame of the book. I agree NOS4a2 was cartoonish, etc... Dr Sleep spanned from when the shining ended and followed years of his and Abbas life. I found NOS4A2 to be excellent in the beginning when the mom was young and was finding things for people. I loved the beginning of Dr Sleep when he was moving around and trying to find his place. I would of loved for him to spend more time helping his patients, I enjoyed that aspect of the story immensely. left me wanting more in the nursing home, with his "patients".

I also found the lady who could put people to sleep quite intriquing and thought her story could have been fleshed out a lot more

Even ABbas powers would of made a great story

[Merlin1958]

I am past the 300 page mark and still enjoying it immensely. In fact, I hadda take a break. Since I haven't finished yet I am making a prediction for the end. Danny, Jack, Dick & Wendy all reunite at the clearing at the end of the path at the end of Dr. Sleep. Not sure why I feel that, just a "shine" I suppose!!! LOL


Also, I'm curious what you folks feel the differences are between the "Hotel people" and the "True Knot". Other than the obvious, they seem very much related in some ways, yet very different in others. Sort of like "cousins". Any thoughts?

[Dan]

I really enjoyed this book! abra's character is my favorite. I felt like it started kind of slow and picked up quite nicely once Dan and Abra met. I typically don't over analyze books and this one is no different. I just enjoy the story. I will get the audiobook and listen to it again before the end of the year. Maybe after a reread of The Shinng.

[Ben Mears]

Overall an enjoyable read. Would have been content with just the recovery, hospice, and Dan's relationship with Abra as the storyline but no complaints. For me the vibe was a cross between The Dead Zone and Firestarter. It was fun coming across many sayings/adjectives that I was initially exposed to in 'Salem's Lot back in 1976 such as preternatural, desultory, trifle, jahoobies, and Jesus Jumped Up Christ. Jerusalem's Lot even gets a curtain call. A very entertaining and well written book that, while a sequel to a classic, is strong enough to stand on its own.

[Merlin1958]

I'm almost finished (Thank you to my Dr. who was running 2 hrs behind schedule today), and I suppose I am slipping in my old age. I just did not see the

You're my sister thing coming and I should have dammit!!!

I have to say that I have not enjoyed, nor anticipated a King novel like this one in many years. Probably since TDT was finishing up. Don't get me wrong I tore through 11/22/63, TWTTKH, Joyland and UTD with the usual vigor, but this one just seems a little more "special"!!!

[Jean]

I really enjoyed this book! abra's character is my favorite. I felt like it started kind of slow and picked up quite nicely once Dan and Abra met.This sounds promising. I have just read of their meeting, and I hope there will be some - any - development. So far I've been struggling through it.

[Merlin1958]

I really enjoyed this book! abra's character is my favorite. I felt like it started kind of slow and picked up quite nicely once Dan and Abra met.This sounds promising. I have just read of their meeting, and I hope there will be some - any - development. So far I've been struggling through it.

Really? Sometimes you are a quandry, Jean. Then again, "The Shining" is a favorite of mine so in many ways "Dr. Sleep" is a trip down memory lane. Just finished it earlier today. Man, I so very much enjoyed it. And, bonus, he "ended" it well!! LOL Push on, Jean I think you will be happy you did so in the end.

[jhanic]

I think my biggest problem with Doctor Sleep was the pervasiveness of the AA throughout almost the entire book. I realize that, in some respects, it is integral to the story, but enough is enough.

Other than that, I really enjoyed the book, especially the various confrontations with the True Knot. Those were truly great.

John

[WeDealInLead]

I hate to admit it, but it's been a full week since I bought the book and I'm not even half done. I can't exactly pinpoint the issue I'm having because it's good book, I like the story, the writing is phenomenal, his dialogue is true to life, characters are believable and I really should be enthralled...except I'm not.

I'm not a writer so I'll try to explain this in terms in know: music. Imagine 11/22/63, Joyland and Doctor Sleep are songs, or better yet records. It feels like King used the same guitar on all three, the same standard tuning, through the same old trusty amp and cab combination, and while these are just tools, he also seems to start each song in the same key. Most songs on an individual album will start with either a drum beat, or a guitar riff, or a bass line, feedback, a sample etc. or any combination of them. Further, most bigger bands will use a different studio and even different producers for each consecutive record. Example are first five Metallica albums. You'll never confuse them because they're so distinct from one another (production, song structures, sound, lyrics) but you will never for a second forget it's the same band.

Shift back to those three books being novels. While I was reading those books, it felt like King wrote them in the same sitting. I'm not stupid enough to think that's what happened but to me that's the feel/vibe I'm getting. He seems to have used the same voice on all three books, even though they're such different books. It feels like he finished Joyland, made himself a cup of coffee and dove right into Doctor Sleep.

This would, I think, be less of an issue for me if it weren't three books in a row. I'm looking at my shelf and I picked three books at random: The Eyes of the Dragon, Misery, Tommyknockers. Each distinct and a voice fitting to the story. I could add It and The Dark Half to make it five books in a row and they all feeldifferent. Different guitar, amp, different tuning etc. I could have picked any 3-5 random books it seems: FaB8, Lisey's Story, Duma Key, Cell, JAS, UtD. Again, different voice in all of them.

The problem is probably me. I was expecting and hoping King would hurt me. I was hoping he would (pardon my language, but it fits) fuck me up. I was imagining King laughing this mean belly laughter bwahaha, because he did say that this was going to be one scary book. Scares and cheap thrills are not why I read King, but man, I'd love to see King scare the living bejeezus out of me once again.

So, this is my melodramatic explanation why Doctor Sleep didn't completely "grab me." It's a good book for sure, but it wouldn't make Top Ten. Top 15 maybe. Top 20 for sure.

Late edit: I just remembered an article from the Stephen King special editon of Fantasy & Science Fiction. I can't remember it exactly, and the book is in storage, but there is non-fiction article on success and books of Stephen King and the author says something about all the different voices and styles of Stephen King. He goes on about King's ability to change his style from book to book. I think that's what I was hoping for with Doctor Sleep.

Late edit 2: I'm not even half done with the book. My mind is completely open and my opinion could change by the time I'm done with the book. We'll see.

[mtdman]

Remember folks, this thread is marked for spoilers. I've finished the book and I'm going to talk about it here.



The only small hiccup (that for some reason is nagging at me) is the different slant on the Danny/Jack relationship. I mean, I pretty well get the reason behind it to a degree, but for some reason it is a little "off-putting". IMHO.

Edit: Perhaps, it is just that it somewhat deflates my personal feeling of a "silver lining, in anotherwise very dark cloud", with regard to the end of "The Shining".

Actually, I always felt that Jack and Danny had a very close relationship. If you remember from the shining, when Danny was distressed he always ran to Jack. Wendy even had jealous feelings about how close they were. I don't feel that Dan's love for his father in this book is out of line. Remember, time heals wounds. Any bitterness he may have felt towards his dad after the Overlook would lessen over time. And adults tend to forget about their problems with their parents from childhood as they grow older. Dan doesn't seem to have a problem pointing out to Abbra at the end all the faults of the Torrence family and their anger, including pointing out what his father did to him and his mom. Personally, I kind of choked up a bit at the end of the Overlook confrontation when Danny saw his father's ghost.

I liked Dan, Abbra, and most of the 'good guy' characters. I even liked the True Knot 'bad guys' quite a bit. Imo, there could have been a bit more character development of the Knot. Actually, I was really surprised at the short length of the book, I expected a lot more 'stuff', and lot longer book. Especially after the extended wait.

I would have liked to have more development of the ghosties and the inherent evilness of the Overlook spot. I really felt that was glossed over a bit, especially with all the fear Dan had surrounding going back to Colorado and the dreams. I was expecting more, especially after Dan unlocked the ghosties in his mind and set them loose on the Knot.

I enjoyed the discussion of Dan's alcoholism and AA stuff. That was developed well, and I suspect a lot of that was King's personal experience. I also enjoyed the Doctor Sleep part of Dan's life as well. And never caught the connection to Doc from the Shining. That was a nice closed circle.

I was not expecting a lot of Shining stuff in this book, I wasn't expecting a sequel to that book, but a story about Dan Torrence as he grew up and went on in life. I didn't read a lot of the hype or buy into that because I wanted to go into the book without a lot of expectations. I did enjoy a lot of the links to the shining that did appear in the story. I would have liked to have heard more about what happened to Wendy and Dick.

It did occur to me though near the end of the book, that this could have been about anybody. The story could have been told without Danny Torrence and the characters from the shining and been a good Stephen King book all on its own. I got a lot of vibes from other books in this one. I get a lot of Black House and Jack in Dan's character. The True Knot give me a vibe of the vampires from Salem's Lot and DT. There's lots of pieces of other books in this book.

I will say, I saw the brother/sister thing coming from a mile away. Totally predictable.

[mtdman]

BTW, the narrator on this audio book was so-so. I had a love/hate relationship with him. He was good at some times, made things really creepy, but then some of the voices all blended together. It was Wil Patton who narrated it.

[Jean]

I will come back to this thread when I finish the book (very soon), so now I've just skimmed WDiL's big post, but it seems he managed to put his finger on what feels wrong with the book. Sorry Bill, I really really wanted to love it (not only because it's King, but because you loved it, too!)

[mtdman]

I hate to admit it, but it's been a full week since I bought the book and I'm not even half done. I can't exactly pinpoint the issue I'm having because it's good book, I like the story, the writing is phenomenal, his dialogue is true to life, characters are believable and I really should be enthralled...except I'm not.

I'm not a writer so I'll try to explain this in terms in know: music. Imagine 11/22/63, Joyland and Doctor Sleep are songs, or better yet records. It feels like King used the same guitar on all three, the same standard tuning, through the same old trusty amp and cab combination, and while these are just tools, he also seems to start each song in the same key. Most songs on an individual album will start with either a drum beat, or a guitar riff, or a bass line, feedback, a sample etc. or any combination of them. Further, most bigger bands will use a different studio and even different producers for each consecutive record. Example are first five Metallica albums. You'll never confuse them because they're so distinct from one another (production, song structures, sound, lyrics) but you will never for a second forget it's the same band.

Shift back to those three books being novels. While I was reading those books, it felt like King wrote them in the same sitting. I'm not stupid enough to think that's what happened but to me that's the feel/vibe I'm getting. He seems to have used the same voice on all three books, even though they're such different books. It feels like he finished Joyland, made himself a cup of coffee and dove right into Doctor Sleep.

This would, I think, be less of an issue for me if it weren't three books in a row. I'm looking at my shelf and I picked three books at random: The Eyes of the Dragon, Misery, Tommyknockers. Each distinct and a voice fitting to the story. I could add It and The Dark Half to make it five books in a row and they all feeldifferent. Different guitar, amp, different tuning etc. I could have picked any 3-5 random books it seems: FaB8, Lisey's Story, Duma Key, Cell, JAS, UtD. Again, different voice in all of them.

The problem is probably me. I was expecting and hoping King would hurt me. I was hoping he would (pardon my language, but it fits) fuck me up. I was imagining King laughing this mean belly laughter bwahaha, because he did say that this was going to be one scary book. Scares and cheap thrills are not why I read King, but man, I'd love to see King scare the living bejeezus out of me once again.

So, this is my melodramatic explanation why Doctor Sleep didn't completely "grab me." It's a good book for sure, but it wouldn't make Top Ten. Top 15 maybe. Top 20 for sure.

Late edit: I just remembered an article from the Stephen King special editon of Fantasy & Science Fiction. I can't remember it exactly, and the book is in storage, but there is non-fiction article on success and books of Stephen King and the author says something about all the different voices and styles of Stephen King. He goes on about King's ability to change his style from book to book. I think that's what I was hoping for with Doctor Sleep.

Late edit 2: I'm not even half done with the book. My mind is completely open and my opinion could change by the time I'm done with the book. We'll see.

I can agree with the same 'voice' thing over the past several books. I think it is a function of King over time. I much prefer 70s and 80s King, when every book was a different voice and adventure. But still, he has done good work this century. 11.22.63 comes to mind.

[Merlin1958]

I will come back to this thread when I finish the book (very soon), so now I've just skimmed WDiL's big post, but it seems he managed to put his finger on what feels wrong with the book. Sorry Bill, I really really wanted to love it (not only because it's King, but because you loved it, too!)

I really appreciate that, Jean, but what can you do? To each his own in the end you just cannot force the issue. To me, this book was like visiting an old friend after many years. I thought that he weaved the story very well with the original, even bringing back (scary) friends to do their evil. I also have to admit that ...

I know the thread is marked, but still "a "spoiler tag" seems appropriate.

It brought a tear to my eye when old Jack made his cameo!! I admit I have had mixed emotions regarding the Danny/Jack relationship as defined in "Dr. Sleep" While, at least since the SK produced TV version, I have always thought that Danny/SK gave Jack a pass, full redemption that is, a lot of time in Dr. Sleep" Danny/SK seem much more antagonistic towards him except at the end. Mixed emotions I suppose and I doubt I am explaining this quite right. Then again, it is a complicated relationship for sure and probably does not lend itself to "labels".

[jhanic]

Bill, my feelings about my relationship with my father pretty much mirror those of Danny/Jack, though I have forgiven him since his passing. He was almost never physically abusive, but LOTS of mental abuse. It took me a long time to get over it. I fully understand Dan's feelings.

John

[Merlin1958]

Bill, my feelings about my relationship with my father pretty much mirror those of Danny/Jack, though I have forgiven him since his passing. He was almost never physically abusive, but LOTS of mental abuse. It took me a long time to get over it. I fully understand Dan's feelings.

John

Yeah, maybe I was too eager to "wrap the Jack/Danny' relationship in a bow. Must be a VERY complicated relationship, which I suppose is exactly what SK was trying to accomplish and whooshed right over my head. I suppose it is not easy to forgive your Dad for wanting to make you "take your medicine", even if he is possessed by "Ghostie's". It's just that, I have to admit, I always felt sorry for poor old Jack. Like his whole life happened to him, but in truth that was not the case. He was accountable as well. Still, I'm a sucker for a happy ending I suppose.

Fortunately, for me, my Dad was great and I hope I can be thought of as half as great a guy as he turned out to be. Of course he had his faults as well, but we tend to remember the good times, right? LOL


P.S. My sincere condolences to you, John.

[jhanic]

No condolences needed. I got over that "phase" of my life a long time ago.

John

[Merlin1958]

No condolences needed. I got over that "phase" of my life a long time ago.

John

Well, it seemed proper. I cannot imagine the pain associated with that sort of thing. Glad you made it to the "Other side".

[jhanic]

Thanks.

John

[mtdman]

Bill, my feelings about my relationship with my father pretty much mirror those of Danny/Jack, though I have forgiven him since his passing. He was almost never physically abusive, but LOTS of mental abuse. It took me a long time to get over it. I fully understand Dan's feelings.

John

Yeah, maybe I was too eager to "wrap the Jack/Danny' relationship in a bow. Must be a VERY complicated relationship, which I suppose is exactly what SK was trying to accomplish and whooshed right over my head. I suppose it is not easy to forgive your Dad for wanting to make you "take your medicine", even if he is possessed by "Ghostie's". It's just that, I have to admit, I always felt sorry for poor old Jack. Like his whole life happened to him, but in truth that was not the case. He was accountable as well. Still, I'm a sucker for a happy ending I suppose.

Fortunately, for me, my Dad was great and I hope I can be thought of as half as great a guy as he turned out to be. Of course he had his faults as well, but we tend to remember the good times, right? LOL


P.S. My sincere condolences to you, John.

I believe that Dan knew that most of what Jack did was caused by the hotel, and I think that makes it easier for him to forgive and still love his father. I always thought that The Shining was a book about Jack Torrence, and I really liked Jack as a (tragic) character. I related well with him in that book and I'm glad to see him get some redemption in Doctor Sleep. My father was far from a perfect guy, and my sister and brother harbor a lot of grudges towards him still. I do not, I had a close relationship with him and even though he wasn't a great guy, I still love him. Granted, he didn't try to kill me or beat my mother to death with a mallet, but I think in general kids want to forgive and forget with their parents. I think Dan has those feelings with his father, and understands what he went through with the alcoholism.

[Roland of Gilead 33]

they say that as kids you put your parents on a pedestal and think VERY highly of them. and of course i think it depends on what kind of parents you end up with of course. but when you grew up and this is my own thoughts you notice and realize they shouldn't be put on a pedestal at all regardless if you have good parents or not. they made plenty of mistakes and done shit they no doubt regret.

my grandfather for example i was very close with him as a kid. he died when i was 12. and i pretty much idolized him. and through the years since he died in June of (1991) my parents tell me various things on how he wasn't so perfect. and though i never got over his death and i prolly never will. i do accept that. neither of my parents had the greatest parents, don't get me wrong i love my grandparents dearly
but they as i learn how they were as parents it does sadden me how they weren't that great as parents and i disagree with some of the things they
did as my parents were growing up. my point is i accept that they weren't perfect, nobody is i sure as hell am not.

neither is anyone on this board. and i think most people prolly come to the same conclusion as i did with my parents and my grandparents.
my parents aren't perfect either. but they did ok i think. anyways, i bought Doctor Sleep yesterday actually. so i'm not that far into it. i've only read like 10 pages so far. so i just started it. it is great to read about these characters again. Danny T. was one character i did wonder what became of him? and Charlie McGee from Firestarter is another one i wonder about as well.

i'm not saying he needs to do a sequel to Firestarter but it would be great if he did put her in a future novel in some form, or just make a passing reference to Charlie as well.

[CyberGhostface]

Just finished. Overall, I liked it a lot. It's not as good as The Shining but it's good enough that it can be read right after without the quality suffering.

One issue I had was

The revelation that Jack had an affair. Obviously I didn't expect King when he was writing the Shining to go "OK in thirty years I'm going to introduce Danny's niece" but we effectively followed his whole life in that book and there was nothing to suggest that he was being unfaithful to his wife. I think it would have worked better if Jack had a one-off fling before he was married or something like that.

Also I was a bit amused at King's statement in the afterword that the only "truly great" sequel to Psycho was Mick Garris's. Seriously, Steve?

[Merlin1958]

Just finished. Overall, I liked it a lot. It's not as good as The Shining but it's good enough that it can be read right after without the quality suffering.

One issue I had was

The revelation that Jack had an affair. Obviously I didn't expect King when he was writing the Shining to go "OK in thirty years I'm going to introduce Danny's niece" but we effectively followed his whole life in that book and there was nothing to suggest that he was being unfaithful to his wife. I think it would have worked better if Jack had a one-off fling before he was married or something like that.

Also I was a bit amused at King's statement in the afterword that the only "truly great" sequel to Psycho was Mick Garris's. Seriously, Steve?

Actually, I seem to recall a vague reference to a fling in "The Shining, but I could be wrong.

[Roland of Gilead 33]

i don't remember if it was mentioned or not cause i haven't read the book in years. but honestly i don't think anyone expects it to be better than the original. though i've only read like 20 some pages now. i read here & there and since it's the weekend THANK GOD i prolly will end up reading more.
but i hope to enjoy it. and as for his comment about Pyscho i dunno which sequel is the best one, but i enjoy parts 2 & 4 over part 3 to be honest.

i enjoy the Mick Garris one. in fact i forgot he even did that one to be honest. but i enjoy all the psycho films. it's going off topic a bit but that's my take on it.

[Merlin1958]

i don't remember if it was mentioned or not cause i haven't read the book in years. but honestly i don't think anyone expects it to be better than the original. though i've only read like 20 some pages now. i read here & there and since it's the weekend THANK GOD i prolly will end up reading more.
but i hope to enjoy it. and as for his comment about Pyscho i dunno which sequel is the best one, but i enjoy parts 2 & 4 over part 3 to be honest.

i enjoy the Mick Garris one. in fact i forgot he even did that one to be honest. but i enjoy all the psycho films. it's going off topic a bit but that's my take on it.

Dude, you should not be in here yet!!! Spoiler's abound!!! LOL

[CyberGhostface]

i don't remember if it was mentioned or not cause i haven't read the book in years. but honestly i don't think anyone expects it to be better than the original. though i've only read like 20 some pages now. i read here & there and since it's the weekend THANK GOD i prolly will end up reading more.
but i hope to enjoy it. and as for his comment about Pyscho i dunno which sequel is the best one, but i enjoy parts 2 & 4 over part 3 to be honest.

i enjoy the Mick Garris one. in fact i forgot he even did that one to be honest. but i enjoy all the psycho films. it's going off topic a bit but that's my take on it.

Well IMO none of the sequels are bad, I get the impression that all of the people involved with the sequels took it seriously as opposed to another another Friday the 13th, but I do wonder why King would single out the fourth film besides his friendship with Mick Garris. It has a very "made for TV" (which it was) feel to it whereas I thought Psycho II was a very strong film in its own right and even when compared to Hitchcock.

Also in regards to Dr. Sleep...

Given the prevalence of the "ghost train" on the CD edition, I wish it had factored in more. I thought it was a striking image and was a bit disappointed that it was just a "Oh, btw" type of thing.

[Roland of Gilead 33]

i realize that but i was curious what others thought of the book to be honest. and let's face it for me people have told me or i heard about how some shows end or a spoiler. shit when it comes to some tv shows if i miss certain episodes the media itself tells you the spoiler sometimes in the title of the article weather you want to know it or not. i did look at the end of the book to see if he lived though, and was thrilled the ending wasn't like the shining. in short they don't bother me i looked up a thread bout doctor sleep and the 1st one i saw was this one so i said fuck it and my curiosity led me here.

[mtdman]

Just finished. Overall, I liked it a lot. It's not as good as The Shining but it's good enough that it can be read right after without the quality suffering.

One issue I had was

The revelation that Jack had an affair. Obviously I didn't expect King when he was writing the Shining to go "OK in thirty years I'm going to introduce Danny's niece" but we effectively followed his whole life in that book and there was nothing to suggest that he was being unfaithful to his wife. I think it would have worked better if Jack had a one-off fling before he was married or something like that.

Also I was a bit amused at King's statement in the afterword that the only "truly great" sequel to Psycho was Mick Garris's. Seriously, Steve?

I am in favor of the idea that Jack had a one night stand with someone when he was drunk and didn't remember it and/or know it ended up in a pregnancy.

Anyone else but me have the lyrics to the Steve Miller song in their head while reading this? Every time Abbra's name came up, "Abbra abbra cadabra, I want to reach out and grab ya".

[WeDealInLead]

Finished the book. I ended up liking it more than I did at the beginning.

I didn't really like the very last chapter. It seemed a little random. I would've much preferred to have the one with Abra and Dan close the story. I also didn't like that King turned Jack into an adulterer. It served its purpose but Dan didn't really have to be her uncle for the story to work. What I did like was when Dan saw his Jack standing where Overlook used to be. That was a nice touch. It felt like closure and with Dan coming to an end of his AA journey, I felt it very fitting.

I'm amending my rating to 4 stars. It would have been 4.5 had King been a little meaner and the book a little scarier.

[RichardX]

Some spoilers here. The book ultimately seemed about redemption and coming to terms with both your own flaws and those of others. Overall, an enjoyable book, but not a great one. I was hoping for a more traditional "horror" novel. The book has plot elements from "Carrie," "The Stand," "Firestarter," and others. There were a couple of minor things that I didn't like:

1) The predictable story arc leading to the inevitable confrontation between the good and bad guys. You could see this coming from page 1. What I call "the trip to Dracula's castle." It occurs in many of King's books and, while understandable, is a bit lazy to repeat over and over again. It is too overt to make for a great plot.
2)"Luke, I'm your father." Ugh. The old we are related trick as Maxwell Smart might say. It wasn't necessary to make Danny and Abra relatives. In addition to being silly and unnecessary, it begins to infringe on the story from the Shining and not in a good way.
3) The measles. So these bad guys have been up to this for centuries and they never encountered a sick kid before? Even in the days before inoculations? A minor point but it comes off as ridiculous.
4) The AA. I wanted a drink after reading so much about this. King really beat it to death. Again, I can understand how alcoholism is an important element of the story, but enough is enough.
5) The background chapter on the True Knot was oddly placed after the characters are introduced. It comes about 1/4 into the book and reads like King's outline for them instead of part of the book. It's written in an odd way and should have been a Prologue. It also mentions the Knot's dislike for dogs which is never touched upon again. Just a strange chapter likely written early on.

[kingsnake]

I really liked this book. I could go on about how this story really grabbed me, but I won't.

Alright...I will, but just a little.

I like/dislike Stephen King's novels on a book by book basis-its just how I am. I read "The Shining" many years ago and remember not liking it, but something compelled me to read "Doctor Sleep" so I did-and do not regret it at all.

I simply enjoyed the story, and even grew attached to the "good" main characters (can identify with a few of them). Regarding the True Knot, I really enjoyed loathing them-they reminded me of the people from a horrible indie comic-strip series by a guy named "Dolcett" (spelling?).

A great storyline, suspenseful, etc. One of his better novels, I'd say.

Now...maybe I missed someone else's comments of a similar nature, and if so-my apologies, but here's one of my gripes with the circumstances in "Doctor Sleep:"

Since the True Knot, in one form or another, have traveled the country (or countries) for a very long span of time, how was it that they did not pick up on Danny Torrence when he was a youngster? Assuming his psychic abilities were probably as strong as the baseball player boy (Trevor's), you'd think Rose, Grampa, or Barry would have picked up his "blip" on their psychic radar. Especially considering how they would travel through places like Florida during certain times of the year (hurricane season, for example).
I mean, you'd think at they'd at least have "bumped into each other" on a psychic level. Right?

But then what? An awfully short story about a boy named Danny who disappeared one day?

I guess we can work our imaginations in whatever way we like, and can dream up a variety of plausible explanations.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.
Thanks.

[Merlin1958]

Well, if you recall, they had range limitations and Danny was no, Abra. I think the "Hotel people" had something to do with it once they got to the Overlook. A thought that occurred to me as well.

[mtdman]

It's a big country, and it's possible they traveled around without running into him.

[bmcmolo]

"i'm not saying he needs to do a sequel to Firestarter but it would be great if he did put her in a future novel in some form, or just make a passing reference to Charlie as well. "

Absolutely. I thought of Charlie more than a few times, reading Doctor Sleep, and Firestarter in general. (Mainly because Charley was always powerful, but she seemed like a kid in danger. There were only two or three sentences in Doctor Sleep where I actually felt Abra was in any kind of danger. The rest of the novel seemed determined to re-assure the reader she was in absolutely no peril whatsoever, all while telling us she was. I really didn't care for that part. Anyway.)

[bmcmolo]

"Also I was a bit amused at King's statement in the afterword that the only "truly great" sequel to Psycho was Mick Garris's. Seriously, Steve? "

I rolled my eyes so hard at that I think I had a momentary seizure. His appraisal of Garris's abilities and his failure to appreciate Kubrick's, is just so stubborn. Ah well. He's entitled, of course, to think whatever he likes (and with Kubrick's movie, based on his work, more rights than anyone, I'd wager) but you just do not look intelligent praising Garris at the expense of Kubrick. I know he wasn't comparing the two, but the implication is there. And it's staggering.

[bmcmolo]

"I'm amending my rating to 4 stars. It would have been 4.5 had King been a little meaner and the book a little scarier. "

Absolutely. I mean, I get that he was forsaking the horror for a different kind of story (and I liked the AA stuff, particularly as thematic counterpoint to the alcoholism of The Shining) but the True Knot are just so toothless.

I don't know, still thinking it over... I kind of enjoy it? Maybe the real danger/ power is the alcoholism and the True Knot's lack of menace/ consistent weakness is a metaphor of some kind. Or maybe he just wanted to make REALLY sure that we understood how bad-ass Abra is/was. Meh.

I did think the last few wrap-up chapters were the strongest in the book. Great ending. Everything after the True Knot/ the horrendous Jack-fathered-Lucy reveal.

[Jean]

did Kubrick direct any of Psycho?

[bmcmolo]

I wish!

[Jean]

No, I thought as much. I wish he had, too.

I agree with most of the points you've made concerning Doctor Sleep. I'll be back with a review when I am ready to be torn to pieces. The thing is, I didn't like it. At all. Nothing about it.

[bmcmolo]

I look forward to reading your thoughts. I was really underwhelmed by it - didn't hate it, but I was disappointed, and kinda bored; he's been on such a roll lately, too - so I've been puzzled by some of the gushing reviews I've read. (Though I know how that goes - everything hits everyone differently, after all.)

[CyberGhostface]

"I'm amending my rating to 4 stars. It would have been 4.5 had King been a little meaner and the book a little scarier. "

Absolutely. I mean, I get that he was forsaking the horror for a different kind of story (and I liked the AA stuff, particularly as thematic counterpoint to the alcoholism of The Shining) but the True Knot are just so toothless.

I don't know, still thinking it over... I kind of enjoy it? Maybe the real danger/ power is the alcoholism and the True Knot's lack of menace/ consistent weakness is a metaphor of some kind. Or maybe he just wanted to make REALLY sure that we understood how bad-ass Abra is/was. Meh.

I did think the last few wrap-up chapters were the strongest in the book. Great ending. Everything after the True Knot/ the horrendous Jack-fathered-Lucy reveal.

Yeah... I mean I didn't *want* something bad to happen but I was a little underwhelmed that after Abra was kidnapped nothing bad happened. I mean look at Black House and the casualties/ramifications there...

[kingsnake]

Come to think of it, there was another stand-out flaw (at least to me) that might have been intended as a last-minute correction but resulted in an plot detail that didn't "jive."

Prior to Dan, DJ, and Dave arriving at the Cloud Gap where they planned to ambush the kidnapping party, there is some discussion regarding guns; Billy claims to know where to get "some bigger stuff...some of it much bigger" (referring to more powerful firearms).

So what does Dan wind up arming himself with (besides the deer rifle)?

A Glock .22 pistol.

Hmm...

A .22 features a bullet the size of a pencil eraser and not much gunpowder pushing it. Yes, at close range it can kill, but of all the things to bring to a life-or-death fight with a powerful and mysterious enemy...a .22[/I][/I]?

I have some knowledge in this area, not a whole bunch, but enough to know that what King intended to convey and what was actually depicted didn't work for this scene.

And yes, this is nitpicking, petty, and not really a story -ruining issue, but I just had to mention this. To me, when an author includes details in a story that are out of whack with "how things really are," and yet expects his reading audience to just accept them as legitimate, it kinda throws the story off...

[RichardX]

I might have missed something, but why was Danny sick toward the end of book? He becomes ill on the way to the final showdown and sees the flies which indicate he may die, but then he turns out to be fine.

[Roseannebarr]

I might have missed something, but why was Danny sick toward the end of book? He becomes ill on the way to the final showdown and sees the flies which indicate he may die, but then he turns out to be fine.

He sucked all the grannys cancer into himself and then carried it with him until he could release it on the tribe, i mean true knot.

[Steve]

I finished the book Monday. I thought it was quite good, a real crackling tale of addiction and recovery. I did, however, feel that the True Knot was a bit underwhelming; they reminded me of the Tommyknockers at the end of the book, when they're being mowed down by Shop soldiers and waiting for the air to clear and for them to die out. There was no real threat to any of them, especially in light of Abra's immense talent.

Still, I thought it was a very good book. It was good to see our old friend Dan again.

Also, they made this big deal of Rocky Wood being hired to ferret out errors, but he neglected to check something I realized almost immediately (and it had been years since I'd read "The Shining"): Jack's father was Mark Torrance, not Don. If Mr. Wood is a member of this forum, I apologize if he feels I insulted him; I do, however, think it's funny that I caught that immediately.

[Merlin1958]

I finished the book Monday. I thought it was quite good, a real crackling tale of addiction and recovery. I did, however, feel that the True Knot was a bit underwhelming; they reminded me of the Tommyknockers at the end of the book, when they're being mowed down by Shop soldiers and waiting for the air to clear and for them to die out. There was no real threat to any of them, especially in light of Abra's immense talent.

I could be wrong, but it seems that you are confusing a few books there.

Still, I thought it was a very good book. It was good to see our old friend Dan again.

Also, they made this big deal of Rocky Wood being hired to ferret out errors, but he neglected to check something I realized almost immediately (and it had been years since I'd read "The Shining"): Jack's father was Mark Torrance, not Don. If Mr. Wood is a member of this forum, I apologize if he feels I insulted him; I do, however, think it's funny that I caught that immediately.


Really? I would have swore it was "Don".



On a side note: The "Big Deal" may have been in sympathy to Mr. Wood' current serious health issues, without mentioning them specifically.

[Steve]

I could be wrong, but it seems that you are confusing a few books there.

How so?

[Merlin1958]

I could be wrong, but it seems that you are confusing a few books there.

How so?

"Tommyknockers" refers to "The Tommyknockers" and "The Shop" guys refers to "Firestarter" and niether seem to jive with your previous statement or, am I missing something? Like I said, maybe I read it wrong? No offense intended.

[Steve]

"Tommyknockers" refers to "The Tommyknockers" and "The Shop" guys refers to "Firestarter" and niether seem to jive with your previous statement or, am I missing something? Like I said, maybe I read it wrong? No offense intended.

The Shop is mentioned in Book 3 of "The Tommyknockers." The Shop is a unit that appears in several of King's works, including "The Stand" and "The Tommyknockers" and (arguably) "The Mist."

[Merlin1958]

"Tommyknockers" refers to "The Tommyknockers" and "The Shop" guys refers to "Firestarter" and niether seem to jive with your previous statement or, am I missing something? Like I said, maybe I read it wrong? No offense intended.

The Shop is mentioned in Book 3 of "The Tommyknockers." The Shop is a unit that appears in several of King's works, including "The Stand" and "The Tommyknockers" and (arguably) "The Mist."

W/E. OK, my bad. My apologies. Carry on.



I suppose I just did not see it. Nice catch.

[kingsnake]

"Tommyknockers" refers to "The Tommyknockers" and "The Shop" guys refers to "Firestarter" and niether seem to jive with your previous statement or, am I missing something? Like I said, maybe I read it wrong? No offense intended.

The Shop is mentioned in Book 3 of "The Tommyknockers." The Shop is a unit that appears in several of King's works, including "The Stand" and "The Tommyknockers" and (arguably) "The Mist."

...and "Firestarter" I believe.

[Bev Vincent]

Jack's father was Mark Torrance, not Don. If Mr. Wood is a member of this forum, I apologize if he feels I insulted him; I do, however, think it's funny that I caught that immediately.

Really? I would have swore it was "Don".

"The stone read Mark Anthony Torrance, Loving Father."

[Steve]

With Horrorking.com and Stephen King's own website listing book characters, not sure how that could slip by.

[Lady Santos]

I LOVED this book. I thought it was a down to the nitty gritty action of the Dark Tower, and I loved it. It enveloped me and transported me. The True Knot may be this world's version of Type 1 vamps--at least in my mind they are, especially since Dan quoted the "there are other worlds than these" line. In this world, T 1's go after steam, not flesh. And Abra reminded me very much of Jake. And the train in teenytown a much more benevolent and silent Blaine. I am still caught up in this world, cant write much more. just--pure and awesome, IMHO

[Brian James Freeman]

3) The measles. So these bad guys have been up to this for centuries and they never encountered a sick kid before? Even in the days before inoculations? A minor point but it comes off as ridiculous.

I believe there's an exchange along the lines of:

“We don’t catch rube diseases!”
“Well... we never used to.”

It's been a while since I read the manuscript, and that might have changed before the final draft, but I took this point to mean they were weaker than they had been in the past, so they were now vulnerable to human diseases that they used to just brush off.

But someone who has read it more recently can probably clarify better than I can!

[sgc1999]

IMO one of Kings best. This is the good stuff. I love the shotgun take off. I read it late at night with just my Kindle light on. Talk about weird dreams after. It slows down eventually but im sure for good reason. I also think its a good on King to make AA important to Dan as many readers will no doubt be able to connect with him and appreciate what he is going through.
Im less than half way through but im loving it so far. Definitely some nods to Joe Hill but i kind of like that, since Joe has done the same in his latest novel. I just take it for what it is.
Really well thought out and driven. I love it!

[Ben Mears]

Listened to the audiobook version this week and it was painful. Will Patton has a decent voice but his over dramatization of nearly every sentence in the book was excruciating. Very similar to Steven Webber's reading of It. He was so annoying that I gave up a 1/4 of the way through. I don't know if being an actor has anything to do with it but listening to those guys was the equivalent of reading a book printed in all caps with exclamation points at the end of every sentence.

[Jon]

A good King book. By no stretch of the imagination a great King book.

Color me disappointed.

[Jean]

so, not only bears are disappointed...

[Jon]

Aye...profoundly disappointed. But not quite as disappointed as I was with Under the Dome.

[Jean]

ooooopppppsssssss

bears loved UtD...

[mtdman]

Aye...profoundly disappointed. But not quite as disappointed as I was with Under the Dome.

I like this cat.

[CyberGhostface]

Listened to the audiobook version this week and it was painful. Will Patton has a decent voice but his over dramatization of nearly every sentence in the book was excruciating. Very similar to Steven Webber's reading of It. He was so annoying that I gave up a 1/4 of the way through. I don't know if being an actor has anything to do with it but listening to those guys was the equivalent of reading a book printed in all caps with exclamation points at the end of every sentence.

I don't listen to audiobooks much but I thought Weber's rendition was pretty good IMO.

[ladysai]

I also listened to the audio version of Dr Sleep, and didnt think the narrator was that bad. Granted, Will Patton isnt among the best narrators Ive heard, (Frank Mueller and Jim Dale to name only two) but he certainly wasnt among the worst, either.

[Jon]

ooooopppppsssssss

bears loved UtD...

My Ursidae friend, UtD was a class A story, but it appears the the last 25 pages, or so, was given to a third grade class to write...then the grammar and syntax was cleaned.

[Jean]

if we weren't in the wrong thread, I would ask you how 1% could ruin 99...

[Jon]

1% arsenic

99% pumpkin

[Jean]

Clever. I am not sure it works for books (or films), though. UtD is like a wonderful dinner, one course better than the other... and then you get shortchanged by the waiter. It leaves some bad aftertaste, but does not ruin the dinner.

[Merlin1958]

Bears, needs to develop that "sensitive" side for a much beloved character whose "after story" is being told. Plus, SK ties it all up with a ribbon in the end. Can you not empathize with that? IMHO, it was a wonderful book. Not in the same "league/genre" as UTD.

[ladysai]

Bears, needs to develop that "sensitive" side for a much beloved character whose "after story" is being told.

I think this is a disadvantage for Constant Readers who pick up Dr. Sleep. It seems like it should be the next chapters of the Shining, but it isnt, I dont know that it was intended to be such, but it wasnt.
It was about a character we met before; one whom Constant Readers likely wondered about after finishing The Shining. But, it wasnt a haunted house tale like The Shining was, but a haunted mind tale...two different kinds of reads, IMHO.

[Merlin1958]

Bears, needs to develop that "sensitive" side for a much beloved character whose "after story" is being told.

I think this is a disadvantage for Constant Readers who pick up Dr. Sleep. It seems like it should be the next chapters of the Shining, but it isnt, I dont know that it was intended to be such, but it wasnt.
It was about a character we met before; one whom Constant Readers likely wondered about after finishing The Shining. But, it wasnt a haunted house tale like The Shining was, but a haunted mind tale...two different kinds of reads, IMHO.

Well, in all fairness he did the "Haunted Hotel" story (and some would say the ultimate one to boot) in "The Shining". IMO he did connect the two stories enough to represent "the next chapters" in the story and ultimately wound it all together at the end. Of course, that's just MHO as well.

[ladysai]

I agree...The Shining is an awesome tale, and SK did connect the story of the haunted hotel and the later life of the boy who survived his hotel stay. (any story of Danny's later life would have to include his experiences at the Overlook...its a part of his history and a formative time in his life)
But still, the stories are of two different kinds. One of a haunted place and the other of a haunted mind. To me, this makes Dr. Sleep seem less like a sequel and more like a related novel.
IMHO, of course. :wink:

ETA:

I think if Dr Sleep was to be considered a sequel to The Shining, then the story would have centered around that place. The perspective would be from the haunted land where the Overlook stood; perhaps telling us how the demons who survived the furnace explosion called out to other demons who travel in RVs...

Dr. Sleep centers around a man, and more specifically on his travels through life's experiences. Those travels brought him back to the haunted land, but the story was still more about him than where he had to travel.

[Merlin1958]

But it did center around that place. I don't mean to debate, but I am just not getting your thought here. The finale literally took place on the former grounds of the "Overlook". I just don't see how you can say "If it were to be considered a sequel" given all that transpired.

[Jon]

I reckon my disappointment could make me say a number of inaccurate things; but my disappointment still exists.

[CyberGhostface]

One question I have regarding the ending... even though Danny seeing Jack was a happy moment for him, do you think Jack is "doomed" to spend the rest of eternity haunting the Overlook's area? Or will his soul eventually be able to move on?

[Merlin1958]

One question I have regarding the ending... even though Danny seeing Jack was a happy moment for him, do you think Jack is "doomed" to spend the rest of eternity haunting the Overlook's area? Or will his soul eventually be able to move on?

FWIW I didn't see it as, Jack haunting the Overlook ruins. More like he was "haunting/watching over", Danny. IMHO


If you have ever seen the TV version authorized and produced by King. There is a scene at the very end where Jack and Danny sort of "hug" it out, spiritually of course, after, Danny graduates. I always thought of that scene as very special to Mr. King for some reason. So, when he did something vaguely similar in Dr. Sleep" that same type of arrangement jumped to mind. JMHO

[Jean]

One question I have regarding the ending... even though Danny seeing Jack was a happy moment for him, do you think Jack is "doomed" to spend the rest of eternity haunting the Overlook's area? Or will his soul eventually be able to move on?

FWIW I didn't see it as, Jack haunting the Overlook ruins. More like he was "haunting/watching over", Danny. IMHObears are sure it was intended this way, yes.

[CyberGhostface]

FWIW I didn't see it as, Jack haunting the Overlook ruins. More like he was "haunting/watching over", Danny. IMHO

Thanks that sounds a lot better.

[Merlin1958]

You're very welcome. Have you viewed the TV version? If not, it is worth a viewing IMHO It's not, of course, a "feature film", but it is, IMHO, what SK envisioned.

Plus, thank the Lord for the "Wendy" casting!!! LOL

[CyberGhostface]

I saw it a long time ago. TBH I didn't really care for it and I'm speaking as someone who disliked Kubrick's film for what it did to King's story.

IMO King made a mistake making it a miniseries -- something as long as The Stand or It warrants one but The Shining is fairly short and could be done justice in a two hour film. Plus the screenplay is a bit blunt at times and cloying...I.E. "kissing kissing" and a reliance on 'boo' scares and whatnot. It was pretty campy. I don't know why but King's pretty hit/miss on his screenplays.

If I were King, I would have had Frank Darabont do it. I think he could do it justice. Given how every critic would be sharpening their knives I would have at least tried to make an A-list project.

[Jon]

I got the same impression of the ending.

[Merlin1958]

I saw it a long time ago. TBH I didn't really care for it and I'm speaking as someone who disliked Kubrick's film for what it did to King's story.

IMO King made a mistake making it a miniseries -- something as long as The Stand or It warrants one but The Shining is fairly short and could be done justice in a two hour film. Plus the screenplay is a bit blunt at times and cloying...I.E. "kissing kissing" and a reliance on 'boo' scares and whatnot. It was pretty campy. I don't know why but King's pretty hit/miss on his screenplays.

If I were King, I would have had Frank Darabont do it. I think he could do it justice. Given how every critic would be sharpening their knives I would have at least tried to make an A-list project.

Good point about Darabount. The TV version was well, a TV version. To each his own.

[Bad Penny]

I've finally read Doctor Sleep right through (not due to lack of interest, only deficit of quality time of late to invest myself in the reading) :smile:

Personally, I thought this to be one of the better books that Stephen has written since his accident, and, yeah, sure, it's not The Shining - then again, I don't believe it attempts to be so - the "scary stuff" in Doctor Sleep has an entirely different nature, far more subtle and everyday than the more "in your face" events that took place at the Overlook.

There were, for me, a couple of Room 217 moments (where what you have just read sends that atavistic chill up one's spine that raises the fine hairs on the back of the neck) - most particularly the 9/11 foretelling (likely not the best word for it, but it'll do) early on in the book - it only serves to reconfirm that not all monsters exist in the darkness of one's imagination or are buried in the depths of our closet waiting for the right time to pounce.

The True Knot were somewhat (as has been referenced upthread) toothless, then again, a certain degree of vulnerability in an antagonist isn't necessarily a bad thing - Randall Flagg had his in The Stand, as did Rose The Hat in Doctor Sleep - an exaggerated belief in their own indestructibility, which, ultimately, proves to be their undoing.

I liked that the True Knot were not impervious to injury or disease, that they were capable of screwing up, that they were guilty of more than the occasional brain fart when formulating strategy plans, that they were, aside from their need for Steam and the temporary enhancements that breathing it provided them with, ultimately as susceptible to the day to day perils of existing on this planet as the rest of us (in some weird way, it made the final denouement at Top 'O The World / The Overlook fairer in some strange way).

Now the wait begins for Mister Mercedes :smile:

[Merlin1958]

Glad you enjoyed it, Grant!!

What I especially loved is that he went and paid plenty of "Homage" to the original. It was still a different novel, but it really felt like "catching up with an old friend". At least that was MHO. The "True Knot" was an imaginative, if not quite as "scary" a villain, as "The Shining", but really, if he had tried to top those guys you would all have been screaming, no? I truly loved it.

[Jon]

I was 3/4 through the book before I realized "The True Knot" wasn't a rouge Boy Scout Troop! :)

[Ben Eads]

I really enjoyed Dr. Sleep. IMHO, the voice was focused and propulsive. Reminiscent of King's earlier works, just a little. Can ya' dig? Power of word and all that jazz.

I felt it was a strong book, indeed. I was quite surprised by how good it was.

It's a good stand alone book, and a good "sequel" without being a sequel. ;)

[Rahfa]

Boy, am I so not liking this book so far....but I'm only 100 pages in, so who knows.

I realized that a problem I have is SK's writing style, which over the last few books has struck me as an older man trying very hard to be hip, and it's beginning to read very phony - the character mannerisms, the stilted dialogue, it doesn't seem real. It seems like what somebody thinks could be real, if they were looking at rural "poor" culture through a telescope and because they read a few articles as a way to research.

I think because the narrator in "11/22/63" was closer to SKs age and identity, that book seemed more believable - I don't mean the plot; I don't expect a believable plot. I mean the writing, dialogue and behavior.

[Jean]

well, at last bears are not totally alone in not liking it

[Merlin1958]

well, at last bears are not totally alone in not liking it

Bears are extremely hard to please!!! Try as we might!!! Can, Bears have a happy holiday at least? Name my contribution and you will have it!! LOL

[WeDealInLead]

I think because the narrator in "11/22/63" was closer to SKs age and identity, that book seemed more believable - I don't mean the plot; I don't expect a believable plot. I mean the writing, dialogue and behavior.

YES! So I am not crazy after all. I felt exactly the same way. I analyzed this briefly somewhere in this thread. 11/22/63 and Joyland especially (fantastic book!) felt a lot more real and genuine.

[Jean]

well, at last bears are not totally alone in not liking it

Bears are extremely hard to please!!! Try as we might!!! Can, Bears have a happy holiday at least? Name my contribution and you will have it!! LOL

bears are very easy to please. By anything genuine. For example, your friendship and goodmind make bears perfectly happy!



I think because the narrator in "11/22/63" was closer to SKs age and identity, that book seemed more believable - I don't mean the plot; I don't expect a believable plot. I mean the writing, dialogue and behavior.

YES! So I am not crazy after all. I felt exactly the same way. I analyzed this briefly somewhere in this thread. 11/22/63 and Joyland especially (fantastic book!) felt a lot more real and genuine.
I remember that you started disliking Dr.Sleep, but I thought you ended up liking it?

: loves Joyland too :

[WeDealInLead]

Yes, I can overlook the writing in favour of the story. I like it, but I don't like it like it.

[Jean]

: nods :

I was mainly dissatisfied with the story, though. The writing, I could swallow it as a necessary evil in many King books.

[Rahfa]

I wasn't too impressed with Joyland either...for the same reasons above, but I was willing to give it a pass because it was an $8 paperback. But "Dr Sleep" is meant to be a major epic, and it feel contrived and fake, and overwritten like it's an affectation, not a true style.

The thing is, SK of the 1970s-80s was an unbelievable writer - the story was secondary. Now, I'm hoping for a good story so I can get past the writing, and "Sleep" is not providing it...still a long way to go, but I'm forcing myself to read it, which is never a good sign.

[RC65]

My thoughts:

The earliest part of the book felt me to be the strongest – Danny’s struggles with alcoholism, Abra’s parents’ dawning realization of their daughter’s talents. The characters seemed more interesting, the mystery more veiled, the suspense more taut. The scene with the child with the bag of cocaine is one of the more vivid ones in the book -- deliberately so, I know, as it becomes a personal touchstone for Danny...but still. Once the story was fully under way, there was a chronic lack of narrative tension and suspense, of depth and true conflict.

While the idea of a caravan of vampires in motorhomes is an intriguing one, for villains who are ages old and purportedly pose such a threat, they were surprisingly fragile and easy to vanquish. Not very bright, either. I thought the long-distance mental battles between the main female Knot member and Abra were fairly compelling, but otherwise, though, the Knot seemed rather pallid as foes.

The inclusion of the Overlook connection is a good example to illustrate the lack of cohesive, contextual suspense in the book. The setting of Overlook was entirely incidental and blatantly coincidental; it added nothing to the story nor revealed any subtext and felt like authorial pandering...the setting could have been anywhere. Much like Danny's talent in helping his hospice patients die and move on, these purposeless narrative plots points seemed tacked on and ultimately went nowhere. They only added to the sense that this was a paint-by-numbers book, a piecing together of narrative components where the whole did not in fact become greater than its (already wanting) parts.

There was also a lack of valid characterization in this book. Along with inspiring a general lack of narrative interest or investment of concern among all characters, Abra's phone call wherein this 14-year-old was able to adopt a completely different persona and attitude rang false. In her and others, there was a lack of consistency and depth that added to the sense that that the words on the page were words only...the story never quite came alive. A shame, as there were flickers of opportunity with the Abra character, yet King continually pushed her potential in the background while dwelling on the uninspired Danny character. I didn't want a repeat of FIRESTARTER, but at least that novel allowed both adult and child to come to the fore and establish their identity though action and emotion...something DOCTOR SLEEP and its generally flat characterization could have used far more of.

R.e. the familial relationship between Dan and Abra, that too is yet another example of this paint-by-numbers approach wherein coincidence replaced narrative depth, a narrative misstep that seemed to me more at home in a soap-opera drama than in a novel by an author of King's talent.

While there have been King books I have disliked more, DOCTOR SLEEP was a distinct disappointment, following as it did on the heels of such great recent works as 11/22/62, JOYLAND, and, yes, even UNDER THE DOME. It’s not a bad novel, per se, but it certainly leaves much to be desired, both as a standalone and, perhaps especially, as a sequel to one of the genre’s true classic works, THE SHINING.

[Jean]

Thank you RC65: a very good review, and much of it is exactly what I was going to say. (I hope to post a more detailed reply tomorrow, if nothing happens)

[webstar1000]

I have to agree... I have been very busy and even though I am.. I find a little fight in me to get through it. Where as some of my fav King books... busy or not... they were done in a couple of days. Like his recent 11/22/62 I could not put down. I can remember faking sick when I was young in order to stay home and read more IT!!!! Not every book by every writer is great, like not every movie by a great director is always perfect... I think what makes them stand out is the timeless works and I am sure many here can attest to the fact Mr King has many....:)

[mikeC]

Someone please tell me that Dan is not really Abra's Uncle It makes me want to stop reading it.

[Iwritecode]

Someone please tell me that Dan is not really Abra's Uncle It makes me want to stop reading it.

He is indeed but I don't understand why that would make you stop reading.

I really liked this book. It's even better than The Shining which was never one of my favorites to begin with.

I'm actually re-reading The Shining for the first time in years. I've noticed there were a lot of connections in Dr. Sleep that I completely missed because it's been so long.

[mikeC]

It would make me stop reading it bc it's silly soap opera nonsense.
He could have come up with something better and more original.

[SirFolio16]

I don't know... maybe if the story was that the uncle/niece relationship came about because of a coma, and an evil twin I would say that it was soap opera nonsense. But there are a great many people who find out later in life that they have sisters/brothers/family due to "accidents" that happen under the influence of alcohol.

I didn't mind it at all. I just thought it played well with the realities/consequences of alcoholism.

[WeDealInLead]

It would make me stop reading it bc it's silly soap opera nonsense.
He could have come up with something better and more original.

Agreed 100%. A man goes on a bender, has a one night stand, woman gets pregnant and out of millions and millions of people, the child turns out to be Dan's niece and they actually meet? All the while the group of people who actually live off of kids like Abra missed her entirely but honed in on the baseball kid with a modest "shine" at best? WEAK.

[CyberGhostface]

Well they only met because Abra was able to psychically communicate with Tony. It's not like they just randomly bumped into one another, that would be a stretch (although even then it'd fall under 'ka'). If anything, them being related makes more sense as to why they'd be able to have such a connection in the first place.

My only issue was Jack having an affair for reasons I've stated elsewhere.

[Rahfa]

Wait - if Jack had an affair, and the child is Abra, wouldn't she be Dan's half-sister? (yeah, this is probably a spoiler..whatever...live with it).

[Iwritecode]

Wait - if Jack had an affair, and the child is Abra, wouldn't she be Dan's half-sister? (yeah, this is probably a spoiler..whatever...live with it).

Jack had an affair with Abra's grandmother. Which means Abra's mother is Dan's half-sister.

[Roseannebarr]

Wait - if Jack had an affair, and the child is Abra, wouldn't she be Dan's half-sister? (yeah, this is probably a spoiler..whatever...live with it).

Jack had an affair with Abra's grandmother. Which means Abra's mother is Dan's half-sister.

It was still a weak way to connect the story. no originality. :(

[Merlin1958]

Wait - if Jack had an affair, and the child is Abra, wouldn't she be Dan's half-sister? (yeah, this is probably a spoiler..whatever...live with it).

Jack had an affair with Abra's grandmother. Which means Abra's mother is Dan's half-sister.

It was still a weak way to connect the story. no originality. :(

I beg to differ. I thought it was a nice tie-in to the first book and a neat way to tie a ribbon around the whole thing. Even though I saw the twist coming early on. I admit that I had a very big smile on my face from page one to the end. As I have said before, it was like visiting an old friend.

I dare say that a few of the detractors here, had he gone another way and not had many tie-in's" to the first book, would be complaining that it wasn't enough of a sequel and didn't tie to "The Shining" enough. I thought that he masterfully walked the sequel "tight rope" and finished strong once again (as he did with "11/22/63"). "Ending" books has been a pet peeve with me regarding King for a long string of novels. Can anyone say "Under The Dome"? JMHO of course.

[Ben Staad]

I just finished this book and loved it. I wouldn't say this is a literary masterpiece but I enjoyed the story and it kept me reading well into the night for several nights. Not many books make me do that anymore.

The tie-ins were okay but the cadence and style of the writing is what really brought it home for me. Enjoyed every minute of it even though I did have similar complaints as others in this thread.

Didn't Like:


The Bad Guys
That Danny seemed to always have a "plan"
That Abra seemingly had a split personality. She was able to suddenly change gears and become a foul mouthed bully seemed "off" to me.


Liked:


Very cliche (since he borrowed from himself) but I did like the John Coffee moment.
Danny's struggle with booze.
The overlook connection.
Grady!
One last and lovely meeting with Dick.






Wait - if Jack had an affair, and the child is Abra, wouldn't she be Dan's half-sister? (yeah, this is probably a spoiler..whatever...live with it).

Jack had an affair with Abra's grandmother. Which means Abra's mother is Dan's half-sister.

It was still a weak way to connect the story. no originality. :(

I beg to differ. I thought it was a nice tie-in to the first book and a neat way to tie a ribbon around the whole thing. Even though I saw the twist coming early on. I admit that I had a very big smile on my face from page one to the end. As I have said before, it was like visiting an old friend.

I dare say that a few of the detractors here, had he gone another way and not had many tie-in's" to the first book, would be complaining that it wasn't enough of a sequel and didn't tie to "The Shining" enough. I thought that he masterfully walked the sequel "tight rope" and finished strong once again (as he did with "11/22/63"). "Ending" books has been a pet peeve with me regarding King for a long string of novels. Can anyone say "Under The Dome"? JMHO of course.

[Abra Stone]

My favorite book is The Shining, so of course I had high expectations when Doctor Sleep was announced. I enjoyed reading it, and it was a good book overall (3.5-4/5 for me). It was nice coming back to old characters and seeing what became of them. However, it was a very different kind of story than The Shinning in many ways previously listed in the above discussions.

It is very rare that a sequel is better than the original; especially when so much time passes between them. I just think that it was great how much The Shinning stayed on King’s mind over the years, and that he felt the need to continue Danny’s story in Doctor Sleep.

[Merlin1958]

I think he did a great job for the sequel. Well done all the way around IMHO

[Lost Rose]

I'm really having trouble with this one...think he should have skipped a sequel of the Shining and done one on the Cell...I'm not sure I'll ever finish it...

[jhanic]

I'm really having trouble with this one...think he should have skipped a sequel of the Shining and done one on the Cell...I'm not sure I'll ever finish it...

I don't feel it's really a sequel to The Shining, but more of its own book with references to The Shining incorporated. I think you could easily read Dr. Sleep without having read The Shining.

John

[Jean]

... or you could easily skip it and go read something else

[Merlin1958]

I'm really having trouble with this one...think he should have skipped a sequel of the Shining and done one on the Cell...I'm not sure I'll ever finish it...

I don't feel it's really a sequel to The Shining, but more of its own book with references to The Shining incorporated. I think you could easily read Dr. Sleep without having read The Shining.

John

I agree. It is a story weaved in that fashion. However, I just loved returning to an old friend, so to speak.


... or you could easily skip it and go read something else

Bears, have been really down on Mr. King for sometime now. Despite your troubles maybe you should lighten up a bit and learn to enjoy the good things a little more and not focus on the bad. That will not help in the least. I mean no ill will, my friend, just trying to offer a helping hand. You rock, post as such!!!

[zelig]

I finally read Doctor Sleep. First of 2015, and better late than never I guess. Since some time last year, I decided to read a whole lot more. Had been too focused on collecting. I ended up reading 18 SK books in 2014, and my first of this year was Doctor Sleep.

I really enjoyed the book. I scanned some of the posts in this thread, and I guess where flaws are mentioned, they make sense, but I tend not to over analyze books and find things that are wrong with them. I guess I either just enjoy the book or not, and leave it at that.

For some reason I can't really explain, it felt Buffy The Vampire Slayerish... The gang working together to take out the big bad...or maybe that's only because I'm in the middle of re-watching Buffy for like, I don't know... the 5th time or so...I tend to re-watch all the seasons every few years...

But back to DS. If I had one criticism, it would be the final showdown. Maybe it's just me but the victory over Rose the Hat seemed to be too easy. I was expecting her to put up more of a fight. But don't get me wrong, I was delighted when she was finally vanquished.

Anyway, book reviews are not my strong point as I'm sure you figured out by now... but I liked this one a lot!

Onto the next...

[Heather19]

Just finished reading this one as well. I enjoyed it, although I will say it is far from his best work. Also I feel it didn't really work as a sequel to The Shining. I wish he had written it as a stand alone story. As I read it, I kinda put that in my head so that it wouldn't bother me comparing it to The Shining, which I think is in a completely different league.

[Daburts]

I thought for all Rose's blustering Abra was never really in danger from her

I actually could see Abra in the future becoming a misguided but dangerous negative force in the world

[racerx45]

Has anyone else seen this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emJWiSh5KD8

[mae]

The Losers Club podcast episode on the novel:

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/consequence-of-sound/the-losers-club-a-stephen-king-podcast/e/65470618#/

[ratchet41]

holy shit this hasn't been touched up on 4 and a half years! i started this book this week i'm only 71 pages into it and it's way to early for me to say i like or hate it to be fair. i don't hate it so far though so that's a good start i suppose

[ratchet41]

i'm currently on page #350 and i'm enjoying it thus far i only wish i had read the damn thing sooner lol

[The Great Buchinsky]

I haven’t read this since publication but recall being a little letdown. I re-read the Shining for the first time in a decade this winter so might try and revisit Dr. Sleep again soon.

[ratchet41]

i have since finished it and i loved it but it's not for everyone i don't think i did post a review on goodreads though one of the things i posted was how people said Rose the hat wasn't much of a threat to her and after reading it i can really kind of see why i mean there's only one part of the book at the end where they did meet but Abra wasn't physically there with her own body. the book has plenty of flaws of course it does and it easily could have been a better book and The Shining is the better book as well. but i loved Dr. Sleep a lot more than i thought i would i wonder If King will return to that world? i'd love to see Danny and Abra in another book together but do it if you find a good idea don't do it just because the fans wonder what did happen to them next?

[mae]

A rerun of the Losers Club Podcast on the novel:

https://player.fm/series/the-losers-club-a-stephen-king-podcast-2446833/doctor-sleep-rerun