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Letti
10-14-2007, 01:31 AM
What would have happened if Susan had met Cuthbert first and not Roland?

Daghain
10-14-2007, 08:25 PM
I think she still would have dated Roland. Although she was intrigued by Cuthbert, I think she would have soon tired of his sense of humor.

Letti
10-14-2007, 09:09 PM
I think she would have soon tired of his sense of humor.

:lol:

Darkthoughts
10-15-2007, 02:36 AM
I think I would've slapped her...he's mine! :P

I think they may of had a brief fling, but it wouldn't have been love, nothing as intense as the relationship between her and Roland.

ManOfWesternesse
10-15-2007, 05:20 AM
This may be a lot deeper possibility than you'd think though.
Certainly she was very immediately, and very strongly, smitten with Cuthbert when she first met him.
*goes off to booksearch*
"Then his gaze returned to her and he gave a smile of such sweetness that a confused but brilliant thought (If I'd met this one first-, it began) shot through her mind like a comet."

Maybe she would have fallen for him just as strongly as she did for Roland? .... and maybe he would have been truer to her in the long run than his Tower-Infected friend was capable of being??

Storyslinger
10-15-2007, 06:05 AM
I think Manof is on the right track, I personally didn't care for Susan all that much, and believe that she would have gone for Cuthbert had she met him first, or Alain, but in the end, I think it has to do with ka, and she would have ended up with Roland, who was to be the one to finalize her death sentence

Letti
10-15-2007, 07:29 AM
I am not sure she would have fallen in love with Cuthber if they had met first (but I think it would have been absolutely possible... moreover) but I am totally sure that if Susan and Roland hadn't met on that very night they wouldn't have become lovers.

I think that night was the night when Susan needed someome so very much that was the night when she was incredibly fragile and lonely and that was the night when she realised what a decision she had made.
That was the night when she was sad and down enough to open her heart to a stranger.

Storyslinger
10-15-2007, 07:42 AM
Nice explaination

Matt
10-15-2007, 07:44 AM
Maybe she would have fallen for him just as strongly as she did for Roland? .... and maybe he would have been truer to her in the long run than his Tower-Infected friend was capable of being??


Probably would have been much happier with him. Cuthbert could have cried off.

I think Susan was very trapped when she met Roland and the other guys and it would have been easy to fall in love with Cuthbert.

That right there is "ka like the wind" like her old Pa told her about.

Letti
10-15-2007, 07:58 AM
Yeah. I don't think she could have fallen in love with anybody.
But I do think she might have fallen in love with Cut.

MonteGss
10-16-2007, 08:09 AM
Cool thread idea! I am sure I can PM you with some good IF questions. :)

I think Susan was a silly little girl and she caught Roland at an age where he was not quite the true gunslinger he ended up being. Both of them were really young and they believed they found some deep, true love. I've said my views in other threads.
If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

Storyslinger
10-16-2007, 08:11 AM
Cool thread idea! I am sure I can PM you with some good IF questions. :)

I think Susan was a silly little girl and she caught Roland at an age where he was not quite the true gunslinger he ended up being. Both of them were really young and they believed they found some deep, true love. I've said my views in other threads.
If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

Yeah, I pretty much agreed with what you said, I think it could have been anyone

Wuducynn
10-16-2007, 08:12 AM
I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

Popularity of opinion doesn't mean shit. Say what you mean and mean what you say, is how I always play it. Good man.

Storyslinger
10-16-2007, 08:14 AM
CK~you think she would have gone for Los right?

Wuducynn
10-16-2007, 08:15 AM
When he was younger and not in his spider form..yeah, possibly. Something about glowing, crimson eyes that turns the ladies on.

MonteGss
10-16-2007, 08:15 AM
I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

Popularity of opinion doesn't mean shit. Say what you mean and mean what you say, is how I always play it. Good man.

My opinion is truth. :D

Storyslinger
10-16-2007, 08:16 AM
When he was younger and not in his spider form..yeah, possibly. Something about glowing, crimson eyes that turns the ladies on.

:lol:

Wuducynn
10-16-2007, 08:17 AM
My opinion is truth. :D

Right. As long as it agrees with mine, if not, then it falls under the category of "sad self-deception and foolishness that only deserves to be slapped for expressing"

Storyslinger
10-16-2007, 08:18 AM
He speaks the truth, I gotten numerous slaps *rubs side of face*

Letti
10-16-2007, 08:24 AM
1. Cool thread idea! I am sure I can PM you with some good IF questions. :)

2. I think Susan was a silly little girl and she caught Roland at an age where he was not quite the true gunslinger he ended up being. Both of them were really young and they believed they found some deep, true love. I've said my views in other threads.
If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)
1. I cannot wait to get them.

2. There is a lot in what you say and you can see we agree I say it's possible or more than possible that she would have fallen in love with Cuthbert
BUT
first of all I don't think she could have fallen in love with anyone. I don't think she would have been able to love a guy without mind and realyl good and nice personality traits.
She could have been fallen in love with Cuthbert because he was a nice, handsome man who had guts and spine and he was a gentleman when he had to be and he smiled when nobody could. He remembered the face of his father.
We all agree I think that Cuthbert rocks.
Secondly I can understand those people who are not fond of Susan. Really. But I have read W&G three times or more and I had to realise again and again how valuable strong and smart she was.
She could die well.
And I think it's such a big thing... when she was on fire and her skin was burning she didn't mind anything.. can you imagine it? She was dying and she had incredible pains but she still loved Roland with all her heart and that's what she did feel.
I don't think it's natural. I think it's unique and respectable.
I don't think a light teenager love can make people so strong. And I don't think a silly chick can die to save her love and pride.

Storyslinger
10-16-2007, 08:28 AM
Again, you have fought your side well, you have my respect, and some of my opinion has change with the points you have stated

MonteGss
10-16-2007, 08:29 AM
She could die well.
And I think it's such a big thing... when she was on fire and her skin was burning she didn't mind anything.. can you imagine it? She was dying and she had incredible pains but she still loved Roland with all her heart and that's what she did feel.
I'll give you this, she did have a good death and die well.



I don't think a light teenager love can make people so strong. And I don't think a silly chick can die to save her love and pride.

Hmmmm...let me think on this more. I'm not sure it was her love that made her so strong.

Letti
10-16-2007, 08:30 AM
Thanks.
I myself needed some time to find out why I think in a different why about Susan. It was just a feeling but maybe now I could put it into words.

Wuducynn
10-16-2007, 08:30 AM
Secondly I can understand those people who are not fond of Susan.

I cannot.

Letti
10-16-2007, 08:32 AM
She could die well.
And I think it's such a big thing... when she was on fire and her skin was burning she didn't mind anything.. can you imagine it? She was dying and she had incredible pains but she still loved Roland with all her heart and that's what she did feel.
I'll give you this, she did have a good death and die well.



I don't think a light teenager love can make people so strong. And I don't think a silly chick can die to save her love and pride.

Hmmmm...let me think on this more. I'm not sure it was her love that made her so strong.
Not just the love. Of course that love needed to find the right soul.
But I let you think. :)

Darkthoughts
10-16-2007, 08:35 AM
He speaks the truth, I gotten numerous slaps *rubs side of face*
Me too *rubs butt* :lol:



If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)
Fair enough...but I don't agree :P I think that she would've found Cuthbert's sense of humour irritating - she was a girl with some serious responsibility on her plate (father's death, the mayor business etc) and I think she was looking for a man/boy that would make her feel safe whilst still respecting her for her independance. I think that was the exclusive attraction with Roland that she didn't share with Cuth - the attraction to Cuthbert was superficial.

Letti
10-16-2007, 08:39 AM
For my part I can imagine that she would have loved Cuth's sense of homour. And we know that Cuthbert can be deadly serious in the important situations and conversations.

Darkthoughts
10-16-2007, 08:43 AM
I think that it would've annoyed her the way Eddie's annoyed Roland. I don't mean she didn't have a sense of humour at all :D Just that Cuthbert's humour is his trademark - King writes it to imply its slightly over the top and thats how I think she would've felt about it.

Letti
10-16-2007, 08:47 AM
Yes, but Roland and Eddie are very different. Their senses of homour... sky and earth! I mean... Roland is... not open enough. Roland is Roland. :)

Erin
10-16-2007, 01:54 PM
I don't think Susan would have fallen in love with Cuthbert. I feel her love for Roland was deep and true.

I think Letti made a very good point on the last page, Susan's last, dying words while being burned to death were professing her love for Roland. This proves to me it was a strong love and not just "teenage puppy love".

Excellent thread idea by the way Letti. :D

Wuducynn
10-16-2007, 03:20 PM
I don't think Susan would have fallen in love with Cuthbert. I feel her love for Roland was deep and true.

I think Letti made a very good point on the last page, Susan's last, dying words while being burned to death were professing her love for Roland. This proves to me it was a strong love and not just "teenage puppy love".

Excellent thread idea by the way Letti. :D

What she said. Couldn't have said better myself.

Darkthoughts
10-17-2007, 02:49 AM
Yes, but Roland and Eddie are very different. Their senses of homour... sky and earth! I mean... Roland is... not open enough. Roland is Roland. :)
I think Susan and Cuthbert were very different too ;)

Letti
10-17-2007, 02:52 AM
Yes, but Roland and Eddie are very different. Their senses of homour... sky and earth! I mean... Roland is... not open enough. Roland is Roland. :)
I think Susan and Cuthbert were very different too ;)

And weren't Susan and Roland different, too? http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/smiley/wagfinger1.gif

Darkthoughts
10-17-2007, 03:10 AM
Yes, but my point being that I don't think she'd have fallen for Cuthbert in the way she fell for Roland - and that Cuthbert's way about him (which is similar to Eddie's, hence my point about Roland and Eddie) would have been an element in why she wouldn't have liked him as much.

Love that smiley :lol:

Letti
10-17-2007, 03:58 AM
Do you say "no way" or "not likely"?

Darkthoughts
10-17-2007, 04:34 AM
I think she and Cuth could've copped off a few times, but nothing serious, certainly not love.

Jean
10-17-2007, 04:43 AM
oh, I'm sure it would have been love. As great, passionate, and self-sacrificing as with Roland. With first love, it doesn't depend on the object, only on the one who falls in love because it's time, and because she (sometimes he) knows very well - from the lore - what love is supposed to be, and if the person in love is by nature whole and strong, there you are. Cuthbert, Roland, Alain, doesn't really matter.

Erin: of course she was crying, "Roland I love you". What else was she supposed to say? She was dying, it was the most important event of her life; sure she was referring to her life's strongest experience. Whether it was love for Roland or just the experience of herself in love (independently of the object) is just what is still a big question... to which we see opposite answers.

Letti
10-17-2007, 04:49 AM
With first love, it doesn't depend on the object...?
My first oh-so-crazy love was nothing next to the second one.

Anyway I don't think she could have fallen in love with Alain.. somehow.

Storyslinger
10-17-2007, 04:53 AM
Yeah, I take back an earlier statement of her and Alain, I read the book yesterday, and I see why you feel the way you do Letti

I agree that she would only have ended up with Roland, though I wish it had been Cuthbert, because he would have cried off for her, but ka is ka

ManOfWesternesse
10-17-2007, 07:10 AM
Letti, I have to agree with you pretty much all the way on this one.

I said above that I believe she could have fallen for Cuthbert, had she met him first, and I still believe so. But you speak fro me when you qualify that with '.. only Cuthbert...'. 'Bert was a lot deeper and truer than his 'immediate' impression might imply imho. He was indeed a Gunslinger.

Personally (& I've read WaG a good few times & love it), I really like Susan's character, not that I just don't mind her - I like her.
I don't think she had it in mind to renege on her committment (even though forced into it) to her soon-to-be-Gilly to Mayor Thorin. She fell for real for Roland, and just might well have fallen for real for 'Bert had she met him on the road that night. Had she met neither then she would have gone to Thorin's bed - sad & miserable yes, but she would have gone.
It was great that, short though it was, she found a better answer. Had Roland been more mature it might have been a better answer again, but Ka is a black wind after all.

Matt
10-17-2007, 07:44 AM
I'm not sure I have read something I agree with more in a long time. Very well said Brian.

Jean
10-17-2007, 07:47 AM
strange as it may seem (considering that our opinions on the whole question are very different) I agree with that too. Brian, it was extremely well put (even the Ka gag... even though I am sure that there is no Ka, I could accept that metaphor of black wind as long as I can see it as a metaphor...)

Letti
10-17-2007, 11:12 AM
It was good to read your wise and nice words, Brian.
Thank you for all of them. :rose:


Erin: of course she was crying, "Roland I love you". What else was she supposed to say? She was dying, it was the most important event of her life; sure she was referring to her life's strongest experience.

Of course???
Jean.
I think most of the people are not heroes. We are just human beings. I don't think that it's natural to cry out someone's name who led you to death even if you loved him a lot.
I mean...
She knew she would die. She was horribly scared and confused and she had indescribable fears and thoughts. She was not able to die in a comfortable bed.
When you are very ill and dying and you feel death close and you are lying in your well-known old bed it's still not easy to find the words you would like to say.
She was about to die in fire...
And when she felt the heat she still could pull herself together and she wasn't cryin for help or mercy... she cried to someone who wasn't there at all.

For me it's not so natural or of course.
Does it make any sense?
It amazes me. It's over me. And sorry to say this but I think it's over most of us.

Jimmy
10-17-2007, 11:14 AM
If Susan was basically imprinting her love on the first guy that caught her eye, she would've gone with Bert.

BUT, if her love for Roland was because of Ka, then it wouldn't have mattered.

I always thought it was Ka that guided her to Roland, and he to her. That is why, even while burning alive, she thought of only him, and why he carried his love for her through countless reboots, to the Tower, again and again.

Matt
10-17-2007, 11:31 AM
I believe what you just said Jimmy is the entire point of the story.

That's what she kept thinking about..."this is bad, bad idea"

but Ka is like the wind and it will blow down your barn, kill your animals, whatever it likes

Letti
10-17-2007, 11:38 AM
Cuthbert himself said it: "If I had a hot dinner for every time someone blamed theft or lust or some other supidity on ka -"

Sorry guys but in my eyes it seems to be very easy to say this is ka and that is ka. I know now it's the KA question again but as long as we are talking about DT we will meet it again and again.
It's not easy to talk or discuss things with someone who belives in ka.

Jimmy
10-17-2007, 11:40 AM
You might not believe in Ka Letti, but in the confines of the story it exists, and it's almost a character in it's own right.

Letti
10-17-2007, 11:41 AM
You might not believe in Ka Letti, but in the confines of the story it exists, and it's almost a character in it's own right.

Why would it exist?
Please explain it to me if you don't mind.

Jimmy
10-17-2007, 11:45 AM
Well, you could almost say Ka is the plot itself. Or more precisely, what drives the plot. Writers always say that the characters take on lives of their own when written properly. Plot points are like curveballs thrown at the characters, much like Ka is used in DT. The only difference is that the characters are able to see these plot points as Ka due to the magical nature of the world(s) they live in.

Matt
10-17-2007, 11:45 AM
I believe in destiny and that has something to do with Ka.

I always consider them interesting conversations.

Letti
10-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Well, you could almost say Ka is the plot itself. Or more precisely, what drives the plot. Writers always say that the characters take on lives of their own when written properly. Plot points are like curveballs thrown at the characters, much like Ka is used in DT. The only difference is that the characters are able to see these plot points as Ka due to the magical nature of the world(s) they live in.

So if Roland and Susan believe it ka (most of the people in the book do, too) it means their lives must be influenced by ka?

Jimmy
10-17-2007, 11:55 AM
Psychologically speaking, no.

Magically speaking, yes yes yes.

Letti
10-17-2007, 12:06 PM
Psychologically speaking, no.

Magically speaking, yes yes yes.

I see.
But here we are not speaking about fairies angles or dragons or stuff like that. We are talking about humans.
Can we miss and not look at the psychological side?

I am sure it's nice to believe and think that they met and they fell in love with each other because of ka. And Susan was crying Roland's name while she was burning because it was ka and Roland couldn't forget her during his long long hard life because of ka but somehow for me it's more logical.. moreover it's more magical as well to think that happened what happend because
they loved each other
they met at the right time
they needed each other
and because they were who they were and their love was true.

I really wouldn't like to argue about it. It's nice that we believe in other things.
Anyway I don't say I don't believe in ka at all. There are things that must happen but I think we are the smith of our fate and we have responsibilites over our acts and we can't blame always ka.

Matt
10-17-2007, 12:11 PM
they loved each other
they met at the right time
they needed each other
and because they were who they were and their love was true.


I believe all of those things are Ka working Letti. And you are right, its great that we all believe different stuff.

Destiny, to me, is not an excuse. More of a way to understand that we all have a purpose. But people look at stuff differently and that is great.

Jimmy
10-17-2007, 12:13 PM
It's a story about cowboys questing for the nexus of reality while fighting giant lobsters, killer trains, vampires and a giant baby headed spider.

Where's the logic there?

Why try to apply logic to some parts of the story, if you can't apply logic to others?

fernandito
10-17-2007, 12:18 PM
It's a story about cowboys questing for the nexus of reality while fighting giant lobsters, killer trains, vampires and a giant baby headed spider.

Where's the logic there?

Why try to apply logic to some parts of the story, if you can't apply logic to others?

Beautifully stated.

Letti
10-17-2007, 12:19 PM
they loved each other
they met at the right time
they needed each other
and because they were who they were and their love was true.


I believe all of those things are Ka working Letti. And you are right, its great that we all believe different stuff.

Destiny, to me, is not an excuse. More of a way to understand that we all have a purpose. But people look at stuff differently and that is great.

I don't answer this one because that would be absolutely about ka and in ka thread I think you have already read my thoughts about it. :rose:


It's a story about cowboys questing for the nexus of reality while fighting giant lobsters, killer trains, vampires and a giant baby headed spider.

Where's the logic there?

Why try to apply logic to some parts of the story, if you can't apply logic to others?

For me this book is absolutely about humans, about their fights and fates. The frame... that's unique and tale/fantasy-like. Not ordinary.
But still logical. For my part I do see logic everywhere in it.

Matt
10-17-2007, 12:22 PM
I don't answer this one because that would be absolutely about ka and in ka thread I think you have already read my thoughts about it. :rose:

Sure have, sorry about that

Jimmy
10-17-2007, 12:25 PM
I don't know what to tell you Letti. I believe in Ka's place in the story as much as Roland does. Whether or not it exists is merely conjecture.

Letti
10-17-2007, 12:29 PM
I don't answer this one because that would be absolutely about ka and in ka thread I think you have already read my thoughts about it. :rose:

Sure have, sorry about that

Oh, I am sorry. I just try not to get into deep off-topic you know. I could talk about ka forever.

I don't know what to tell you Letti. I believe in Ka's place in the story as much as Roland does. Whether or not it exists is merely conjecture.

It's understandable. I hope you can understand my views as well. :rose:

ManOfWesternesse
10-18-2007, 01:55 AM
[quote=Matt;48614][quote]
.....For me this book is absolutely about humans, about their fights and fates. The frame... that's unique and tale/fantasy-like. Not ordinary.
But still logical. For my part I do see logic everywhere in it .

Yes, absolutely!
OK, certain things in it may be outside the (narrow) confines of our 'real' world, but that does not add up to 'illogic' for me.

Great debate btw!:clap:

Darkthoughts
10-18-2007, 02:35 AM
oh, I'm sure it would have been love. As great, passionate, and self-sacrificing as with Roland. With first love, it doesn't depend on the object, only on the one who falls in love because it's time, and because she (sometimes he) knows very well - from the lore - what love is supposed to be, and if the person in love is by nature whole and strong, there you are. Cuthbert, Roland, Alain, doesn't really matter..

Jean, you are such a cynic! :lol:

I don't think we're doing first love or teenagers much justice here! I absolutely don't believe you fall in love for the first time with any old person just because "its time". Yes, she did find Cuthbert attractive, but you don't then fall in love with some one just because of asthetics.

Jean
10-18-2007, 02:43 AM
No, you don't. Nobody knows why you do. I beg everyone here to remember their first love, and then tell me that it didn't just happen because it was time. And I think my position is rather romantic than cynical... I admire the force that drives the young to fall in love, you see... and, in extreme cases, to die for the sake of that love, whether or not the object was worthy of it - just because the one who sacrifices him- (more often her-) self is capable of integrity to the point of sacrificing. I hope it clarifies my position for Nikolett, too.

Darkthoughts
10-18-2007, 02:48 AM
I see your position more clearly :rose: Though I still disagree with the main point of the discourse, even thinking back on my first love.

Letti
10-18-2007, 03:06 AM
Okay, just let me know Jean what you mean by "it was time".

ManOfWesternesse
10-18-2007, 03:14 AM
Jean, I just don't agree on the "....and then tell me that it didn't just happen because it was time...." idea.
But that's ok. I hear you, I just don't agree.
I think it has to be the right person (maybe at the right time as well?.. though no, I don't think so either - can easily be wrong time too...). It may not be the right person for-ever, but has to be the right person at that time ? (Maybe I've lost the plot here - have trouble following my own reasoning !:beat: )

Darkthoughts
10-18-2007, 04:05 AM
I know what you're trying to say MoW...its what I'm trying to say too :D

ManOfWesternesse
10-18-2007, 04:52 AM
I know what you're trying to say MoW...its what I'm trying to say too :D
Tell me if you figure it out :rofl:

Letti
10-18-2007, 05:17 AM
This time thing is not clear to me, either.
I mean, okay let's say they fell in love because it was time.
Do you say if Susan had been a stupid chick who can't put words together to make an understandable sentence and can't write down her name without a mistake Roland would still have fallen in love with her?
Or Susan would have loved Roland the same way if Roland had tried to grap her breasts without hesitation like a hungry dog in that evening?
I don't think so.
But if there were so many other things that made them love each other why is the TIME the main reason for you, Jean?

If there is a castle with lots of lost treasures inside you must find the door (time) to get into to get those treasures (their souls). And when you hold the treasure in your hand you become rich (love).

/// Letti, stop here because you are not too understandable.///

On that evening they found the door (the right time) to be able to see each others' treasures (souls) and because they needed each other and they found valuable what they saw in each other they became rich (because they fall in love.

So... what do you need to become rich or fall in love?
The time (door)?
Their souls (treasures)?

I think both. Neither of them could exist without the other.
They met at the right time AND they found something very loveable and pricesless in each other and that's why it became love.

But anyway I guess Jean you mean by time that they were teenagers - hungry for love.

*reads back*


If someone can understand this explanation I will pick up my hat for them. :lol:
I don't delete it because I have been working on it for so damn long...

ManOfWesternesse
10-18-2007, 05:46 AM
Actually Letti, that's pretty well put.
... and do you mean you will '...eat your hat'?

Storyslinger
10-18-2007, 06:44 AM
I think she means tip her hat, but yes I agree, that clears up your stand point on it for me, and again, you have further drawn me to your ideas

Letti
10-18-2007, 06:46 AM
Actually Letti, that's pretty well put.
... and do you mean you will '...eat your hat'?

If you say my last post made sense... yeah, I'm gonna eat my hat happily. ;)

stone, rose, unfound door
12-30-2007, 04:55 PM
What would have happened if Susan had met Cuthbert first and not Roland?

I hope she'd have fallen for him!

Letti
01-01-2008, 02:16 PM
What would have happened if Susan had met Cuthbert first and not Roland?

I hope she'd have fallen for him!

Would you prefer that story?

Darkthoughts
01-02-2008, 12:07 PM
Nah, they might have got it oooon ;) But it wouldn't have been a relationship with the same intensity as Roland and her.

obscurejude
01-02-2008, 12:28 PM
What is interesting is that Roland meets Susan before his "tower infection." He is not compelled to embark on his quest until he becomes trapped within the grapefruit. I think it is possible that her and Cuthbert might have wound up together and would have probably been much happier- though not as intense. I think that is part of what King is trying to reveal in Roland as a character throughout the novel- as Susannah suggests at the end of Roland's tale, He understands Susan's death as a consequence of his quest for the tower. That drive in Roland is what made him and Susan perfect for each other but also doomed "Ka like a wind." Cuthbert did not have that same drive and this is one of the reasons he was such an enigma to Roland at times. How could you laugh in the midst of such a desperate and brutal existence? Cuthbert would have made a much better husband- Roland however, wasn't made for that lifestyle. Remember that Roland decides not to marry Susan after going todash within the grapefruit and seeing the tower for the first time. Cuthbert would not have had that response.

Darkthoughts
01-02-2008, 12:41 PM
I think though that Susan shared Roland's intensity - albeit for different reasons. For that reason, I don't think she and Bert would have endured. I think she'd have found him too light hearted aswell.

obscurejude
01-02-2008, 12:53 PM
I agree. I have tendency to over explain things. She was very intense. I wasn't necessarily saying her and Bert would have lasted, but that the possibility at least existed. I'm not sure the possibility was ever truly there with Roland.

Darkthoughts
01-02-2008, 12:55 PM
Well, its debatable for the pure fact that it was cut short before it had time to blossom ;)

I think they could've made it though. I mean, we get a glimpse of that settled side of Roland when we see him with Rosalita in the Calla.

obscurejude
01-02-2008, 01:05 PM
True, but Rosalita knew it was only temporary from the beginning. It does show a certain side of Roland though. I guess we'll never know. They were both cut short. Its that whole combination romanticism yet rational determination that makes Roland so enigmatic as character.

jayson
01-02-2008, 01:13 PM
For my part, I think Bert might have been a bit too hot-headed to keep his cool as long as Roland did in Hambry. Had Susan been his girlfriend instead of Roland's, he might not have been able to keep a lid on his temper watching her in the days leading up to Reap Fair and the boys may have been forced to leave town early. As it was he had a hard enough time keeping his temper with Roland about Susan.

Wuducynn
01-02-2008, 02:06 PM
I've got to say that the idea of a ka-tet gang-bang with Susan would be wicked hot. How many holes of Susan's can Roland's ka-tet stuff and for how long?

jayson
01-02-2008, 02:09 PM
I've got to say that the idea of a ka-tet gang-bang with Susan would be wicked hot. How many holes of Susan's can Roland's ka-tet stuff and for how long?

and we can see just how gifted in "the touch" alain really was.

Wuducynn
01-02-2008, 02:18 PM
The Version of Wizard and Glass Never Released to the Public! YES!!!

jayson
01-02-2008, 02:19 PM
The Version of Wizard and Glass Never Released to the Public! YES!!!

It's called Wizard & Ass

Letti
01-02-2008, 03:18 PM
For my part, I think Bert might have been a bit too hot-headed to keep his cool as long as Roland did in Hambry.

What do you mean by cool here? When was Roland cool in Hambry?

jayson
01-03-2008, 04:45 AM
For my part, I think Bert might have been a bit too hot-headed to keep his cool as long as Roland did in Hambry.

What do you mean by cool here? When was Roland cool in Hambry?

For starters, when he didn't respond to Jonas' destruction of their stuff and cursing of their mothers names [not that that meant much to Roland at this point] by going over to the Traveller's Rest and blowing his brains out. I am by no means saying Roland is the calmest guy around, but he was, at least at 14, more level-headed than Cuthbert. It's not a bad thing, I think Roland and Cuthbert complemented one another perfectly, the same way Eddie does for Roland. The one is more pragmatic while the other is a bit more given to follow his emotions. I simply think had it been Cuthbert, not Roland, who got with Susan that the probability of an early showdown goes up.

Letti
01-03-2008, 06:59 AM
But Roland himself said that he made good decisions because of wrong reasons... so he was just lucky.
(Any I think Roland's mom was always very important to him. Even when he was so disappointed and pissed off.)

jayson
01-03-2008, 07:03 AM
But Roland himself said that he made good decisitons because of wrong reasons... so he was just lucky.
(Any I think Roland's mom was always very important to him. Even when he was so disappointed and pissed off.)

I'm not saying his reasoning was always correct, just that Cuthbert seemed the more likely to get incredibly pissed off and lose his control, and if it were his girlfriend promised to Thorin he might not have handled it as "diplomatically" as Roland. As to Roland's mom, I know he didn't abandon her, just saying that Roland was possibly better equipped to deal with bad things being said about his mother as he had some negative thoughts about her to deal with.

TerribleT
01-06-2008, 09:19 AM
I've got to say that the idea of a ka-tet gang-bang with Susan would be wicked hot. How many holes of Susan's can Roland's ka-tet stuff and for how long?

LMFAO

Childe 007
03-27-2008, 02:37 PM
I think though that Susan shared Roland's intensity - albeit for different reasons. For that reason, I don't think she and Bert would have endured. I think she'd have found him too light hearted aswell.

And here is the crux of it all. What alot of you are neglecting is the character of these two characters.

Would Cuthbert have pursued her as doggedly once he became aware of her "situation" as Roland did? Would he have had the "intensity" to overlook that? Would he have wanted to? No, no and no.

Cuthbert would have had a fleeting regret that she was spoken for and got on with his business.

Would Susan have broken her vow and put her family's name at risk for anything less than Rolandesque determination? Would she have risked her life for anything less than the last champion of The White? Would she have gone to the fire for Cuthbert? Again - No, no and No!

So - had Susan and Cuthbert become lovers the Tower would have fallen.

I have never understood people's dislike of Susan. She was a full fledged member of that 1st ka-tet and was the Rose to Roland's Tower. Suasan was the 1st sacrifice. The blood that Gan and the Tower demanded of Roland/ The Eld to save the multiverse.

He was made a gunslinger - years before his time. He was given his life's love and had it taken from him as the price for that achievement. This 1st time Roland got the girl. After Tull - I'd imagine that it was always Cuthbert.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 02:41 PM
After Tull? What do you mean?

Childe 007
03-27-2008, 04:11 PM
I believe that Roland always "draws" incarnations/ twins of his 1st ka-tet. When he drew Eddie he drew Cuthbert; Jake was Alain and Susannah was Susan. Right down to the woman bearing his child. That which he lost in the beginning - he gains in the end. All except the sacrifice - his true love. He had to choose between the gun and the rose and he chose the gun. Cuthbert chooses the Rose and would never have achieved the Tower. Eddie gets Susannah and etc, etc...

Bethany
03-27-2008, 07:42 PM
Cool thread idea! I am sure I can PM you with some good IF questions. :)

I think Susan was a silly little girl and she caught Roland at an age where he was not quite the true gunslinger he ended up being. Both of them were really young and they believed they found some deep, true love. I've said my views in other threads.
If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

i heart monte.

i've said this many times but i do not think roland and susan were the lovers to end all lovers. they were 2 kids in love with the idea of being in love. i truly believe she would have fallen in the exact same way for cuthbert, or alain, or shemmie for that matter.

Letti
03-28-2008, 12:47 AM
I believe that Roland always "draws" incarnations/ twins of his 1st ka-tet. When he drew Eddie he drew Cuthbert; Jake was Alain and Susannah was Susan. Right down to the woman bearing his child. That which he lost in the beginning - he gains in the end. All except the sacrifice - his true love. He had to choose between the gun and the rose and he chose the gun. Cuthbert chooses the Rose and would never have achieved the Tower. Eddie gets Susannah and etc, etc...

What an interesting view but to me Susannah and Susan are way too different to be twins.

MonteGss
03-28-2008, 02:21 AM
Cool thread idea! I am sure I can PM you with some good IF questions. :)

I think Susan was a silly little girl and she caught Roland at an age where he was not quite the true gunslinger he ended up being. Both of them were really young and they believed they found some deep, true love. I've said my views in other threads.
If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

i heart monte.

i've said this many times but i do not think roland and susan were the lovers to end all lovers. they were 2 kids in love with the idea of being in love. i truly believe she would have fallen in the exact same way for cuthbert, or alain, or shemmie for that matter.

Yes! Thank you!

obscurejude
03-28-2008, 08:34 AM
I've also said similar things. Thank you Monte, thank you Bethany.

Letti
03-28-2008, 10:37 AM
ehhh

Wuducynn
03-28-2008, 11:28 AM
Yeah, sorry guys, don't buy it for a second. I think there was a lot more to their love than just puppy crush.

jayson
03-28-2008, 11:33 AM
Yeah, sorry guys, don't buy it for a second. I think there was a lot more to their love than just puppy crush.

same here. i don't like to think that Roland would risk everything, his life, his friends' lives, their mission, all bc he is "in love with the idea of being in love." for those who say 14 is too young to know what love is, it's allegedly too young to be a Gunslinger too, but he was able to do that. Roland is not ordinary. as for Susan, she literally gave her life for her love. that seems a bit more than just in love with an idea as well.

Wuducynn
03-28-2008, 11:35 AM
Yeah, sorry guys, don't buy it for a second. I think there was a lot more to their love than just puppy crush.

same here. i don't like to think that Roland would risk everything, his life, his friends' lives, their mission, all bc he is "in love with the idea of being in love." for those who say 14 is too young to know what love is, it's allegedly too young to be a Gunslinger too, but he was able to do that. Roland is not ordinary. as for Susan, she literally gave her life for her love. that seems a bit more than just in love with an idea as well.

Perfectly put :harrier:

sarah
03-28-2008, 11:44 AM
Cool thread idea! I am sure I can PM you with some good IF questions. :)

I think Susan was a silly little girl and she caught Roland at an age where he was not quite the true gunslinger he ended up being. Both of them were really young and they believed they found some deep, true love. I've said my views in other threads.
If she had met Cuthbert first, I think she would have "fallen madly in love" with him instead. I know my answer won't be very popular but that is what I believe. :)

i heart monte.

i've said this many times but i do not think roland and susan were the lovers to end all lovers. they were 2 kids in love with the idea of being in love. i truly believe she would have fallen in the exact same way for cuthbert, or alain, or shemmie for that matter.

Yes! Thank you!



I also heart monte but sadly I disagree with you and bethany. I just feel that in no way could she have fallen for Cuthbert. It just wouldn't have happened, imo.



Yeah, sorry guys, don't buy it for a second. I think there was a lot more to their love than just puppy crush.

same here. i don't like to think that Roland would risk everything, his life, his friends' lives, their mission, all bc he is "in love with the idea of being in love." for those who say 14 is too young to know what love is, it's allegedly too young to be a Gunslinger too, but he was able to do that. Roland is not ordinary. as for Susan, she literally gave her life for her love. that seems a bit more than just in love with an idea as well.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

well said boys. I completely agree. Roland and Susan weren't your normal average 14/15 year olds. And their love wasn't a crush of some randomness. This shaped Roland and his quest for the Tower. He never would've ended up on the path he led for so long if it didn't start with Cort and Susan.

jayson
03-28-2008, 12:04 PM
well if matthew and sarah agree, i know i'm right

MonteGss
03-28-2008, 02:54 PM
Oh you all make me want to throw up! :lol:
The second Roland saw the Tower in the Grapefruit, Susan became less important to him. The Tower is Roland's true love.

Susan, yeah maybe, she could be truly in love with Roland but it wasn't a love of legend or anything near it. Which is why I still say that this silly little girl could have fallen for anyone, not just Roland.


I don't mind being the minority on this one. :) I still heart all of you. Well, except CK.

Bethany
03-28-2008, 04:30 PM
it has not so much to do with age as with the length of time. they weren't together long enough to forge an enduring love.

/me joins OJ in the vomitarium.

for the record, i don't like susan at all. she's a silly twit.

Wuducynn
03-28-2008, 04:42 PM
for the record, i don't like susan at all. she's a silly twit.

See I think THIS is the real issue.

obscurejude
03-28-2008, 05:37 PM
Monte's right guys. Roland planned on taking Susan to Gilead and letting her marry someone else after he saw the Dark Tower in the Grapefruit. That was before she was sacrificed.

Jean
03-28-2008, 10:19 PM
dear friends: don't forget there is a specific thread where Roland-Susan little affair is discussed: Their love (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=357)

obscure: I'm glad we agree again... I posted what I think on that kind of "love" here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=8585&postcount=17), and later in that thread, too; also there are many interesting thoughts by many people, who both agree and (mostly) disagree with this point of view

obscurejude
03-29-2008, 07:22 AM
Thanks for the redirect Jean. I'll check it out.

RolandLover
06-17-2011, 06:51 AM
Oh you all make me want to throw up! :lol:
The second Roland saw the Tower in the Grapefruit, Susan became less important to him. The Tower is Roland's true love.

Susan, yeah maybe, she could be truly in love with Roland but it wasn't a love of legend or anything near it. Which is why I still say that this silly little girl could have fallen for anyone, not just Roland.


I don't mind being the minority on this one. :) I still heart all of you. Well, except CK.

Yes I agree with this and the ones who said she would have fallen for Cuthbert if they met before Roland. With the ugly situation that Susan was force in, Cuthbert, Alain, or Roland would have been the one for her. Just to get out of Mejis and out from being the Mayor's gilly. Actually Cuthbert would have been better especially given his sense of humor which to me was sorely missing from R/S romance. Their love was born in gloom and they acted like it and it ended in gloom. With Bert maybe things would have been different.

pathoftheturtle
06-17-2011, 07:39 AM
With Bert maybe things would have been different.Possibly. I suppose that if it had been C&S, they would have ended up drinking cocoa in an alternate universe happily ever after.

LadyHitchhiker
06-17-2011, 12:05 PM
This may be a lot deeper possibility than you'd think though.
Certainly she was very immediately, and very strongly, smitten with Cuthbert when she first met him.
*goes off to booksearch*
"Then his gaze returned to her and he gave a smile of such sweetness that a confused but brilliant thought (If I'd met this one first-, it began) shot through her mind like a comet."

I would hope I would be much more smitten with the strength of a sweet smile, and overcome my confusion, and follow the brilliant thought that this is perhaps someone I should be with, than a man I'd end up burning tied to a tree for. But hey, maybe that's just me.