Was the tower ever under threat ? :spoilers:

[Colton Grech Micallef]

Hi everybody I'm new here so I may be a little inexperienced. I have had this question since I read the books,

For the tower ( or gan ) to send Roland back repeatedly for him to reach it makes me wonder whether it was ever under real threat from the destruction of the beams. If Roland's journey had already happened the first time through - Which the last book suggests that it had been done many times repeatably - Is it knowingly putting itself at risk again by risking the destruction of the beams ? Or all of this was prevented the first time Roland journeyed to the dark tower and all consecutive Journeys were all just repetitions or perhaps figments of roland's imagination ?.

I hope this is understandable and please bear with me as this is my first attempt and english is not my first language :):)

[flaggwalkstheline]

it's my understanding that yes the tower was under threat from the CK and his breakers

as far as the loop goes, there are quite a few ideas about it, i think that roland's quests are as much about saving himself as they are about the tower, even if he doesn't know it

[Colton Grech Micallef]

That is also my understanding but I think it was only under risk the first time through. Otherwise why would the tower endanger itself after it's beams were saved ?

[candy]

For me - and this is a purely personal interpretation

The Tower and Roland are linked and until Roland can redeem himself the Tower will always be in danger, therefore it has to take a gamble to send him back each time to save them both

As i said its a purely personal thought, however it also helps with the ending of the book in regards to the Crimson Kingwho would also appear to be linked, if you think of how the crimson king was so strong at the start of the series and also in other books, therfore as the tower and roland himself disintergrated spiritually so did the crimson king. My reasoning for this is probabley something my mind has made up because it was so unhappy with the soft insane crimson king that roland eventually met

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I'll tell you what: this website gets a lot of different questions from newbies and all kinds of theories about the ending, but this one really seems to cut straight to the heart of some of the most perplexing issues left from many of the deeper discussions which I've been involved in over the years here.

Is Roland's personal growth really so important? If so, why? Is there not any better way for him to learn how to be a better person?

When you think about it, though, King's version of this rather clichéd plot twist serves, probably just by luck, as a pretty powerful metaphor for some awfully perplexing questions about God and real people. Is it truly good that we should have free will such that we can kill ourselves? And are we really so free that it's genuinely possible for us to collectively destroy this whole world?

[Merlin1958]

To me, No not really. It was a threat created to motivate Roland and the Ka-Tet. When push came to shove if Roland didn't answer the bell something would've intervened. I think that is supported by the "Loop" to a degree.

[LadyHitchhiker]

My understanding is that it is always in danger.

[Merlin1958]

My understanding is that it is always in danger.

Well, yeah sort of "In Danger always, but then again not" If you know what I mean. Sounds nuts I know, but if you think about it maybe not so much so.


:orely::orely::orely:

[Jean]

My understanding is that it is always in danger.

Well, yeah sort of "In Danger always, but then again not" If you know what I mean. Sounds nuts I know, but if you think about it maybe not so much so.


:orely::orely::orely: I am totally sure that this is exactly what happens. The tower is always in danger, in need of saving, and being saved.

[pathoftheturtle]

"Mama always said, God is mysterious." ~ Forrest Gump

[blavigne]

My understanding is that it is always in danger.

Well, yeah sort of "In Danger always, but then again not" If you know what I mean. Sounds nuts I know, but if you think about it maybe not so much so.


:orely::orely::orely: I am totally sure that this is exactly what happens. The tower is always in danger, in need of saving, and being saved.

I am with Bears here. Also who's to say that Roland is the only one saving it? I think there are others on their own quests............there are other worlds than these.

[Merlin1958]

My understanding is that it is always in danger.

Well, yeah sort of "In Danger always, but then again not" If you know what I mean. Sounds nuts I know, but if you think about it maybe not so much so.


:orely::orely::orely: I am totally sure that this is exactly what happens. The tower is always in danger, in need of saving, and being saved.

I am with Bears here. Also who's to say that Roland is the only one saving it? I think there are others on their own quests............there are other worlds than these.

Good Point!!!!

[LadyHitchhiker]

So is the tower conscious? Is the tower an extension of Gan? Does the tower really have any effect on what happens? What truly made Roland loop back? Was it Gan, the tower, ka?

[Adumbros]

If it weren't in danger, then why would he keep getting sent back? and is it possible that, just maybe, he himself is a threat, erby explaining why the Tower denies him true entry?

[LadyHitchhiker]

Ooooooooooh now THAT is a nice discussion question...

[Adumbros]

hey it's a question that begs to be asked. after all, roland himself informs the reader numerous times that the Tower has many magical forms of self-preservation, the rose being among them. perhaps it was using subterfuge against him to prevent from being breached? perhaps the line of eld was not meant to cross that barrier, perhaps being why the crimson king was imprisoned on the balcony, for maybe the Tower knew that his auspices would see through it's obfuscations if he managed to win access?

[pathoftheturtle]

Or maybe the Tower just didn't actually want Roland's final ascent to be published for everyone on Keystone Earth.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Where does the tower get consciousness from? Mechanical? God? Has this been discussed?

[pathoftheturtle]

Yeah, it's a good topic, (try the Gan=God? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?5846-Gan-God-(Not-a-religious-discussion)-**Spoilers**) thread) but I think it's a useful metaphor to talk about the intentions of the Tower even if it may not actually have literal intentions and/or their source is unclear.

[johnny39]

I think the only way you can say it is truly "in danger" is if there really is a "final journey" in which the horn of eld, or some other thing is there so it is "done right".

Or perhaps the tower simply represents Roland's release from the cycle and isn't really what all the worlds spin on.

[pixiedark76]

The tower is ALWAYS in "danger" The tower will always need Roland to protect it. Because Ka is a wheel and it never stops turning! The tower is the "wheel" that spins our world and all of the worlds. There is no "final journey" The cycle wail keep happening and Roland will never be released. Sad as it may sound for Roland the tower is his! Forever and Ever. What happens in Roland's quest for the tower might be different each time, but Roland will always have to protect the tower.

[blavigne]

I think that maybe when Roland "does it right", his personal journey will end and he will be able to hand off the job to another from the line of Eld. Maybe when he reaches the tower with his horn. I believe that there is a clearing for Roland and that he will find it. However the tower will always need protecting and someone will always be doing it.

[pathoftheturtle]

If it weren't in danger, then why would he keep getting sent back? and is it possible that, just maybe, he himself is a threat, erby explaining why the Tower denies him true entry?A good question. Why would God let someone suffer if he didn't deserve it? Even if such a thing might really happen, it wouldn't happen in fiction. Except maybe horror fiction.

[LadyHitchhiker]

If it weren't in danger, then why would he keep getting sent back? and is it possible that, just maybe, he himself is a threat, erby explaining why the Tower denies him true entry?A good question. Why would God let someone suffer if he didn't deserve it? Even if such a thing might really happen, it wouldn't happen in fiction. Except maybe horror fiction.
Is that supposed to be sarcasm?

[pathoftheturtle]

Me? I don't think so. I mean, it is a complex subject, but I was honestly trying to further contribute. A lot of folken seem to nearly overlook the moral order angle. The last post from blavigne seems like a nice compromise, if it's true that the Tower is ALWAYS endangered for some reason; there's the idea that Gan would find a way to let Roland, at least, finally rest.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Me? I don't think so. I mean, it is a complex subject, but I was honestly trying to further contribute. A lot of folken seem to nearly overlook the moral order angle. The last post from blavigne seems like a nice compromise, if it's true that the Tower is ALWAYS endangered for some reason; there's the idea that Gan would find a way to let Roland, at least, finally rest.

Well, there are many versions of God, so I didn't know if this was your subjective view of God - that he is an all-loving God - or one based off of literature. Because there are plenty of nasty versions of God out there in fiction and non-fiction, in my experience. :)

[pathoftheturtle]

Okay then, yes, there was a little sarcasm. The point is that we want Roland's experience to make sense because of instinctive expectation for justice in the world.

[blavigne]

Good points path and LH. I believe that Ka is a wheel and so it rolls, but as with all things, it must also move on. I thin of it like this, the wheel is infinitely thick but as it rolls layers get rubbed off, just like tires on asphalt. Eventually all of Roland's part will be "rubbed off" exposing the piece that belongs to the next. Roland has not always been on his quest, there was a time before him, someone from whom the quest was passed. There are others to whom the quest will be passed forever and ever.

I think Roland will find his clearing because it is the end that must come. Whether that clearing is sunshine and bunnies or todash darkness, I do not know but it is peace from the quest. What Roland deserves, I also do not profess to know and am glad I do not have to judge.

When I posted that I believe that Roland will "get it right" and find his clearing, I was not thinking that would be a reward from Gan and he would go to heaven, just that although Ka is eternal we that serve it are not.

The God/Gan thing is a whole other issue to me, one that I have very mixed feelings about. Someday we will have to talk in that thread path, you generally have interesting and intelligent thoughts in that regard!! :)

[pathoftheturtle]

Thanks. But one way or another, how you define God goes right to the question of whether "getting it right" actually has any consistent meaning or not.

And that's becoming ever more necessary here. We're not just talking about mortal men as defined by linear time any longer. Roland's existence on his cycle involves multiple versions of him in parallel timestreams. Do the words "before" and "after" have any consistent meaning in that context? And why couldn't a man who jumps from one life to another be eternal? Maybe ka does have laws against that... but I think those would be moral laws rather than any kind of physics.

[blavigne]

Thanks. But one way or another, how you define God goes right to the question of whether "getting it right" actually has any consistent meaning or not.

And that's becoming ever more necessary here. We're not just talking about mortal men as defined by linear time any longer. Roland's existence on his cycle involves multiple versions of him in parallel timestreams. Do the words "before" and "after" have any consistent meaning in that context? And why couldn't a man who jumps from one life to another be eternal? Maybe ka does have laws against that... but I think those would be moral laws rather than any kind of physics.

path this is what I love about you..............now I gotta go think before I can reply.
Seriously you are probably the most intelligent person on earth. I am impressed by your posts as always :)

[pathoftheturtle]

Wow, I'm flattered. Thank you. There are a lot of people around here who know much more than I do about different things. Like computer programming: I'd like to study that more. I am not good at finance. And so forth. But there really are not very many philosophers in this country. I took the road less travelled by. There seems to be a general feeling that it's a useless subject; that philosophy is all just matters of opinion, anyway. But I believe that you can really arrive at some consistent points if you think steadily. Not that anyone will care to listen, even so.

Maybe saving the Dark Tower is not a job for any one hero or succession of heroes but is simply the kind of task that requires a transformed society.

[blavigne]

Wow, I'm flattered. Thank you. There are a lot of people around here who know much more than I do about different things. Like computer programming: I'd like to study that more. I am not good at finance. And so forth. But there really are not very many philosophers in this country. I took the road less travelled by. There seems to be a general feeling that it's a useless subject; that philosophy is all just matters of opinion, anyway. But I believe that you can really arrive at some consistent points if you think steadily. Not that anyone will care to listen, even so.

Maybe saving the Dark Tower is not a job for any one hero or succession of heroes but is simply the kind of task that requires a transformed society.

totally off topic here but have you read The Celestine Prophecy? I would love to discuss that with you! I LOVE philosophy and logic. Sometimes not my strong suit, but I strive to learn. I am also very open minded about most things which also helps. I look forward to many interesting discussions :)