Dark Tower Twins, Twinners & Reincarnations (Spoilers all around!!!)

[MonteGss]

This has been touched on in a number of threads a few times. I think minor arguments or large disagreements have started as well because of it. :) :grouphug:

I'd like this thread to be used to discuss who you thought they were. For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter. Also, I believe that Eddie is the twin of Cuthbert. For me, they aren't twinners (like Sloat and Morgan) because they are not living at the same time.

Now some people think that Eddie is Cuthbert's reincarnation. I disagree and I think that it is a different occurrence entirely.


So, I know we are getting into semi-existentialism and such but I thought this could be the place for it.
What do you guys think? Also, why?

Let the discussion begin! :) :grouphug:

[Wuducynn]

For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter.

Since I know you've read DT7 and the The Gunslinger Born and you know its already been proven that they're the same person, I guess I'll need a definition for what you mean by "twinner".

[MonteGss]

How about..the same person but able to flip to different levels of the Tower...?

So, how do each of you define Twinners?
How are they different from twins? Or aren't they?

:)

[Wuducynn]

Hmmmm okay. By that definition, sure.

[MonteGss]

It could be argued that Sloat and Morgan are the "same" person, similar to Marten and Walter. When the entity/soul/persona/person flips into another level, their twinner flips as well. When Marten is on one level of the tower, Walter is on another. I pictured that happening in the comics when Marten "morphed" into Walter.

I don't see these being clearly defined thoughts by anyone...I just hope to hear others' thoughts and hopefully I can understand them better myself. :)

[Wuducynn]

You've got me thinking about it. Great topic for a thread.

[Storyslinger]

Yeah this is a good thread

[MonteGss]

:D
A great thread is one where people post and comment, is it not? :)
I admit, my topic may be one where people have to think a bit but I think it is a worthy thought/topic. :)

[Letti]

In my eyes Eddie a Cuthbert are very different.

[Wuducynn]

In my eyes Eddie a Cuthbert are very different.

Even though Roland goes on and on about how similar they are through every book since he's met him?

[Letti]

In my eyes Eddie a Cuthbert are very different.

Even though Roland goes on and on about how similar they are through every book since he's met him?

Yes.
And my answer is still yes.
Okay.
Both have good sense of homour. And they are both gunslingers and the friends of Roland.
Anything else?
Cuthbert handles the things such a different way. He respects and loves Roland such a different way. He didn't have a black monkey. And so on and so on...

I don't day they are not similar. But they are more different. But it's understandable Roland sees Cuthbert in Eddie all the time.

[Wuducynn]

This is the line in Song of Susannah that makes me think that Eddie is a reincarnation of Cuthbert (or possibly a twinner going by Monte-bators definition) - Page 293 of the hardcover edition - Eddie "I'd feel better about my heroism if I remembered it," Eddie said. Then: "You realize that when this guy was seven, I wasn't even born?"
Roland smiled. "Ka is a wheel. You've been turning on it under different names for a long time. Cuthbert for one, it seems."

Now what do you think of that part? Do you think Roland is wrong there?

[Letti]

Roland was often wrong. I can't say that he was wrong when he told that but I can say I think he was wrong.
Cuthbert was the bestest friend of Roland for long. And we know very well how closed Roland is and he didn't have many people in his life he could love and belong to. It's natural he would like to believe Eddie is not just a new real friend but Cuthbert himself.
Each person Roland has ever loved and died because of him or not haunts him as long as he lives and exists.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jean]

fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert

[Letti]

fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert

Incredible. :D

[Wuducynn]

fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert

Awhile ago you wanted me to post where I got the idea that Eddie was a reincarnation of Cuthbert...well there you go. I think he is. Doesn't mean he is a carbon copy but I think Rolands old ka-tet go with him in new bodies through the years, because they were never really broken but have always been with him.

[Jean]

I remember. I am reading now, and thinking.

[Letti]

I think he is. Doesn't mean he is a carbon copy but I think Rolands old ka-tet go with him in new bodies through the years, because they were never really broken but have always been with him.

(Even if I don't agree) I must say it's absolutely possible. I wish we could ask sai King.

[Wuducynn]

I'm calling him up now...but since it's 3:13 a.m. here I doubt he'll be up..oops he's picking up, I'll tell him you guys said hello!

[MonteGss]

fully agree with Nikolett about the difference between Eddie and Cuthbert

Awhile ago you wanted me to post where I got the idea that Eddie was a reincarnation of Cuthbert...well there you go. I think he is. Doesn't mean he is a carbon copy but I think Rolands old ka-tet go with him in new bodies through the years, because they were never really broken but have always been with him.

I can buy into this line of thinking. He always has the same ka-tet. I guess I'm not a fan of the word reincarnation. I personally think twin is more appropriate. :) But, like I said (see below), maybe those two words mean the same in the DT.


King: "I saw Cuthbert, not you." A pause. "You and Cuthbert broke bread and scattered it beneath the gallows. That's in the part that's already written."
Roland: "Aye, so we did. When Hax the cook swung. We were but lads. Did Bert tell you that tale?"
But King did not answer this. "I saw Eddie. I saw him very well." A pause. "Cuthbert and Eddie are twins."

This is the part that I am relying on most for my interpretation. It takes place the page before CK's quote. I can see reincarnation here but the DT saga has twins in it time and time again. Here we have it from King's own mouth (well, his character anyway). Maybe the concept of twins means reincarnation in the DT world...

[alinda]

:clap: I think on several layers of "worlds" certain people, and situations
repeat or play over and over with Rolands loop. (they are "related" and dependent on eachother),and the choices they make , and ka.

Maybe twinners being alive at the same time is something to think longer about....but the world has moved on and I dont believe in time anyway.....
I'm at a loss as to how to say this without confusing you, as much as I am.


If there are other worlds as alike as we've been shown then all things and possibilities are not only possible, but highly likely. I think this idea is close to what we are experiencing now :idea: on our own level of the tower.:rose:
But to answer the question of Eddie, and Cuthbert...... Im fairly sure that the "2"( or more) katets are also repeated as nessasary to its conclusion.

[Wuducynn]

:clap: I think on several layers of "worlds" certain people, and situations
repeat or play over and over with Rolands loop. (they are "related" and dependent on eachother),and the choices they make , and ka.

Maybe twinners being alive at the same time is something to think longer about....but the world has moved on and I dont believe in time anyway.....
I'm at a loss as to how to say this without confusing you, as much as I am.


If there are other worlds as alike as we've been shown then all things and possibilities are not only possible, but highly likely. I think this idea is close to what we are experiencing now :idea: on our own level of the tower.:rose:
But to answer the question of Eddie, and Cuthbert...... Im fairly sure that the "2"( or more) katets are also repeated as nessasary to its conclusion.

Not confusing at all, thanks Linda. Interesting ideas.

[MonteGss]

I wasn't confused either Linda. Great post!

[Childe 007]

This has been touched on in a number of threads a few times. I think minor arguments or large disagreements have started as well because of it. :) :grouphug:

I'd like this thread to be used to discuss who you thought they were. For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter. Also, I believe that Eddie is the twin of Cuthbert. For me, they aren't twinners (like Sloat and Morgan) because they are not living at the same time.

Now some people think that Eddie is Cuthbert's reincarnation. I disagree and I think that it is a different occurrence entirely.


So, I know we are getting into semi-existentialism and such but I thought this could be the place for it.
What do you guys think? Also, why?

Let the discussion begin! :) :grouphug:


OK - Just my 2 coppers - for what they're worth:

The concept of Twinners and twins as it relates to King's tales and thus the Dark Tower is pretty plain. Twinners exist simultaneously on different planes of existence/ worlds/ wheres. Some of them are able to migrate into those other worlds by hitch hiking onto/ into their "twinner" - a type of benign possession is how I believe Morgan described it. The exeption to that rule is those who are of a singular nature. They do not have twins on these other planes of existence - ie. Jack Sawyer and Roland (among others I am sure).

In the case of Eddie - in fact let's expand this to include all of Roland's Ka-tet - I don't think that they are twinners, twins or even reincarnations of Cuthbert, Alain and Susan - but they are filling those roles for Roland. That goes I think to his power to Draw. Roland's period as a true gunslinger was that time between the exile to Mejis and Jericho Hill. In Mejis he had his 1st ka-tet and it was those he loved the best - so when it comes time for him to "draw" another ka-tet from the door on the beach - he is going to be drawn to people who have the capacity to play those roles. I believe that he always draws a different three - but they are always similar in character to those 1st three in Mejis.

Marten/ Walter/ Flagg is a bit trickier because they were seemingly merged by King into one character in The Dark Tower. I have said before - though - that I think it entirely plausible they began as seperate entities. Let's look for a moment at the meaning of ka-tet: One from Many. That can also apply to demons - ie Legion. One demon composed of many. And this is a name that is used in connection with just about all of King's evil magicians. It begins with Flagg in the Stand and continues on with Linoge (duh) and others in King's books. I find it most telling to observe Flagg's power of being able to send his ka out into the night and into others - physically possessing them (ie Nadine) in a manner that is anything but benign. It is possible (and I say even plausible) that as each of the wizards sent against Roland were defeated - their physical and mystical being was obsorbed by the next. So Marten is consumed/ possessed by Walter who is in turn consumed by Flagg. The ka's (or spirits) of each remaining in the single host body - Legion.

A quick summary of my take on it anyway.:pirate:

[Bango_Skank]

This has been touched on in a number of threads a few times. I think minor arguments or large disagreements have started as well because of it. :) :grouphug:

I'd like this thread to be used to discuss who you thought they were. For example, imo, Marten is a twinner of Walter. Also, I believe that Eddie is the twin of Cuthbert. For me, they aren't twinners (like Sloat and Morgan) because they are not living at the same time.

Now some people think that Eddie is Cuthbert's reincarnation. I disagree and I think that it is a different occurrence entirely.


So, I know we are getting into semi-existentialism and such but I thought this could be the place for it.
What do you guys think? Also, why?

Let the discussion begin! :) :grouphug:


OK - Just my 2 coppers - for what they're worth:

The concept of Twinners and twins as it relates to King's tales and thus the Dark Tower is pretty plain. Twinners exist simultaneously on different planes of existence/ worlds/ wheres. Some of them are able to migrate into those other worlds by hitch hiking onto/ into their "twinner" - a type of benign possession is how I believe Morgan described it. The exeption to that rule is those who are of a singular nature. They do not have twins on these other planes of existence - ie. Jack Sawyer and Roland (among others I am sure).

In the case of Eddie - in fact let's expand this to include all of Roland's Ka-tet - I don't think that they are twinners, twins or even reincarnations of Cuthbert, Alain and Susan - but they are filling those roles for Roland. That goes I think to his power to Draw. Roland's period as a true gunslinger was that time between the exile to Mejis and Jericho Hill. In Mejis he had his 1st ka-tet and it was those he loved the best - so when it comes time for him to "draw" another ka-tet from the door on the beach - he is going to be drawn to people who have the capacity to play those roles. I believe that he always draws a different three - but they are always similar in character to those 1st three in Mejis.

Marten/ Walter/ Flagg is a bit trickier because they were seemingly merged by King into one character in The Dark Tower. I have said before - though - that I think it entirely plausible they began as seperate entities. Let's look for a moment at the meaning of ka-tet: One from Many. That can also apply to demons - ie Legion. One demon composed of many. And this is a name that is used in connection with just about all of King's evil magicians. It begins with Flagg in the Stand and continues on with Linoge (duh) and others in King's books. I find it most telling to observe Flagg's power of being able to send his ka out into the night and into others - physically possessing them (ie Nadine) in a manner that is anything but benign. It is possible (and I say even plausible) that as each of the wizards sent against Roland were defeated - their physical and mystical being was obsorbed by the next. So Marten is consumed/ possessed by Walter who is in turn consumed by Flagg. The ka's (or spirits) of each remaining in the single host body - Legion.

A quick summary of my take on it anyway.:pirate:

I'm not sure i agree with this . Although Eddie and Cuthbert are similar Susannah and Jake are not like Alain and Susan. They don't have much in common. I've always thought that ka chose the people Roland needed the most to fulfill his quest, not Roland himself, and that King left the meaning of Eddie and Cuthbert's similarites, (coincidence or not) ambiguous so that the reader could decide for him/herself..

[Darkthoughts]

Marten/ Walter/ Flagg is a bit trickier because they were seemingly merged by King into one character in The Dark Tower. I have said before - though - that I think it entirely plausible they began as seperate entities.


Let's look for a moment at the meaning of ka-tet: One from Many. That can also apply to demons - ie Legion. One demon composed of many. And this is a name that is used in connection with just about all of King's evil magicians.


It is possible (and I say even plausible) that as each of the wizards sent against Roland were defeated - their physical and mystical being was obsorbed by the next. So Marten is consumed/ possessed by Walter who is in turn consumed by Flagg. The ka's (or spirits) of each remaining in the single host body - Legion.
Walter Paddick is actually the original form of Marten/Flagg (as we learn in The Dark Tower). He was born as a human to a miller in Delain. However, after running away from home at 13 he uses and abuses magic until he achieves his almost immortal, shape shifting status.

Marten Broadcloak, Walter O'Dim, Richard Fannin, Rudin Filaro, Randall Flagg and the Walkin' Dude are all aliases of Walter's. He can change his face aswell as his name, and can also travel through other worlds and time. He is often defeated, but never physically killed until he meets Mordred, so rather than being absorbed by a new entity, he simply shapeshifts and moves on.

(Reference: The Dark Tower Complete Concordance.)

[Jean]

I was inclined to think the same. Walter must be one of those axis figures who can't have Twinners.

[Wuducynn]

Or is his own.

[Wuducynn]

By the way Lisa, I think you're spot on.

[Darkthoughts]

Wow...thanks honey :blush: Now, buy me a drink bitch! :lol:

[Wuducynn]

How about some sewer mud?

[Darkthoughts]

Why thank you Mrs Kersh, that would do nicely :D

[Wuducynn]

I'll gladly buy you a drink...Dasani? Poland Spring? Aquafina?

[Wuducynn]

For me it seems that when Walter uses one of his aliases it is in some cases more than a meer alias but a whole personality change, he becomes that person...that is why he is Legion, he is a demon with MPD.

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: Spot on yourself!

Er, aren't those all types of bottled water? You know it's beer for me or you don't even get to first base :P

[Wuducynn]

:lol: Spot on yourself! *bows*


Er, aren't those all types of bottled water? You know it's beer for me or you don't even get to first base :P

Its funny that you would have to ask if they're brands of bottled water..its obvious you're so unfamiliar with anything non-alcoholic that you would have to question it. :rolleyes:

[Darkthoughts]

:P

And yet, sadly that's true.

[Wuducynn]

"Wait, those lack alcohol don't they??" *faints*

[MonteGss]

Walter must be one of those axis figures who can't have Twinners.

Or is his own.


For me it seems that when Walter uses one of his aliases it is in some cases more than a meer alias but a whole personality change, he becomes that person...that is why he is Legion, he is a demon with MPD.

I really like the line of thinking from these quotes. I believe Walter is special, I just see him having the ability to consume/possess his personalities, which I believe are his Twinners. Does that make sense? :)

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, it is very much as if he completely becomes someone else. Not like a conman assuming a role, but more - as CK says - asserting a whole new personality as someone with a MPD would do.

I agree, he really was quite a unique character.

[Jean]

I don't know where I took this phrase - axis figure - probably came to me from the Tower, and, very likely, from the level deceitful dreams come from - but the more I think of it, the more I [probably erroneously] like it. Roland is an axis figure, too. You can't imagine him having twinners, can you? even though Sai King hinted they looked like twins, they weren't.

(I'm one step away from saying that in some respect Walter came the closest to be Roland's twinner... but that's what comes from talking first, and thinking next. I mean, I don't really think I think so. But they are both unique, both stand alone, and, you know, the first (= last) line of the saga...)

[MonteGss]

I see Roland and Jack as similar figures, with no twinners. I don't see Walter that way.

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, there are some similarities between Jack and Roland. Although Jack was more ready to make friends than Roland (even if he didn't always fully open up to them).

[Jean]

that axis thing that keeps haunting me, it's not only about twinners. It's about the replicas of people in various versions of the same worlds. We know there are many Jakes and Eddies, but, I suspect, not Rolands or Walters. I am not sure about Jack. I'm re-reading Black House now, and may be more positive when I have finished. So far nothing prevents me from thinking there must be other Jacks in other Wisconsins.

[MonteGss]

Multiple Wisconsins....*shudders* :lol:

Except for the Packers, of course. :)

[jayson]

Multiple Wisconsins....*shudders* :lol:
)

You think in some of those Wisconsins the Brewers still play in the American League?

As for the actual topic, I see Jack as similar in nature to Roland or Walter in being without twinners. I see Jack's "flipping" ability as something very close to Roland's drawing, only Jack is drawing himself. On the other hand, it's possible that there are multiple Jack's but that perhaps there is a "Keystone Jack" who is able to be aware of the others? Roland I still believe to be a singular entity.

[Steve]

Cuthbert handles the things such a different way. He respects and loves Roland such a different way. He didn't have a black monkey. And so on and so on...



Letti, I am quite worried here.

[Wuducynn]

Yes, he loved him in that "special" way that some boys have.

[jayson]

Yes, he loved him in that "special" way that some boys have.

That'd explain why Bert resented Susan.:dance:

[Wuducynn]

Right! There was more going on there than just concern over the mission it was obvious.

[jayson]

Makes you wonder what other "touch" Alain might have been gifted with.

[MonteGss]

Roland has no Twinners, he is special. Jack has no Twinners, he is special. Walter has many and can "flip" to them at will. Jack is also similar to Walter because Jack can "flip" to different levels of the tower. The difference is that Jack has no Twinner to flip opposite him. Talisman and Black House are my favorite DT connectors because of "flipping" and Twinners. :)

[Childe 007]

Roland has no Twinners, he is special. Jack has no Twinners, he is special. Walter has many and can "flip" to them at will. Jack is also similar to Walter because Jack can "flip" to different levels of the tower. The difference is that Jack has no Twinner to flip opposite him. Talisman and Black House are my favorite DT connectors because of "flipping" and Twinners. :)

Hmm - Ok, goes to the same heart of these wizards being Legion - and the thing about Jack - he is singular as seen in The Talisman:


For a moment all partitioned reality seemed to break down; he did not flip but seemed to fall through worlds - like a man crashing through the rotted floors of an ancient wooden tower. He might just go falling through a chain of realities forever. He was single natured - he had a place in all of the worlds - but he did not exist simultaneously in all of them - that was the difference. He was flickering through all of them, only for a millisecond and leaving a sound like a hand clap or a sonic boom behind as the air closed around the space he had been occupying.

But I believe that when we left him at the end of Black House he could still just flip to the one "other" reality - The Territories - where Walter/ Marten/ Flagg can visit them all (maybe except The Territories?)

And the idea of Walter being able to willingly flip to his alter ego's - regardless of where they may be would explain all of those personality differences...

Very nice MOnteGss!

[MonteGss]

Roland has no Twinners, he is special. Jack has no Twinners, he is special. Walter has many and can "flip" to them at will. Jack is also similar to Walter because Jack can "flip" to different levels of the tower. The difference is that Jack has no Twinner to flip opposite him. Talisman and Black House are my favorite DT connectors because of "flipping" and Twinners. :)


He was single natured - he had a place in all of the worlds - but he did not exist simultaneously in all of them - that was the difference. He was flickering through all of them, only for a millisecond and leaving a sound like a hand clap or a sonic boom behind as the air closed around the space he had been occupying.

But I believe that when we left him at the end of Black House he could still just flip to the one "other" reality - The Territories -
This is true but doesn't change my argument. He can "flip" when he wants and we don't know that it is only to The Territories.


where Walter/ Marten/ Flagg can visit them all (maybe except The Territories?)
I think he can go where ever he has a Twinner. He is bound to Twinners.


And the idea of Walter being able to willingly flip to his alter ego's - regardless of where they may be would explain all of those personality differences...


You say true and I say thankya. The Jack Sawyer stories are, imo, the most important connector books.

[Childe 007]

He was single natured - he had a place in all of the worlds - but he did not exist simultaneously in all of them - that was the difference. He was flickering through all of them, only for a millisecond and leaving a sound like a hand clap or a sonic boom behind as the air closed around the space he had been occupying.

But I believe that when we left him at the end of Black House he could still just flip to the one "other" reality - The Territories - [/QUOTE]
This is true but doesn't change my argument. He can "flip" when he wants and we don't know that it is only to The Territories.

I think that the quote I included shows that he not only CAN - but did. What I meant with the Black House reference is that he - at the time we left him - CHOSE not to.


where Walter/ Marten/ Flagg can visit them all (maybe except The Territories?)
I think he can go where ever he has a Twinner. He is bound to Twinners.

And I like this! But if he has a twinner in the Territories we haven't seen him yet (unless it was Reuel - who was "dim" according to the Wolfs.) And his twinners can also move between the worlds. The trick with that is that they can't be in the same world/ reality at the same moment. So while Walter may move into Flagg and Flagg may move into Marten - Marten must move to another world/ reality/ level of the Tower.


And the idea of Walter being able to willingly flip to his alter ego's - regardless of where they may be would explain all of those personality differences...


You say true and I say thankya. The Jack Sawyer stories are, imo, the most important connector books.[/QUOTE]

Along with The Stand - I'd agree!

[MonteGss]

And I like this! But if he has a twinner in the Territories we haven't seen him yet (unless it was Reuel - who was "dim" according to the Wolfs.) And his twinners can also move between the worlds. The trick with that is that they can't be in the same world/ reality at the same moment. So while Walter may move into Flagg and Flagg may move into Marten - Marten must move to another world/ reality/ level of the Tower.

Yes!!! This is just like what happens to the Twinners in The Talisman and applies to Flagg (etc) the same way.
Walt, Flagg, Marten, etc are the "same person" but they are not; they are twinners.



The Jack Sawyer stories are, imo, the most important connector books.[/B]

Along with The Stand - I'd agree!

I think The Stand is a good story and does connect to the Tower series but I believe the Jack stories offer us a greater understanding of the Tower and the DT saga. The Stand connections weren't, at least to me, all that important. :)

[Wuducynn]

I think The Stand is a good story and does connect to the Tower series but I believe the Jack stories offer us a greater understanding of the Tower and the DT saga. The Stand connections weren't, at least to me, all that important. :)

I agree in regards to Black House but the Talisman doesn't seem to have an awful lot of direct Dark Tower connections.

[MonteGss]

I think The Stand is a good story and does connect to the Tower series but I believe the Jack stories offer us a greater understanding of the Tower and the DT saga. The Stand connections weren't, at least to me, all that important. :)

I agree in regards to Black House but the Talisman doesn't seem to have an awful lot of direct Dark Tower connections.

I am referring to the importance of the Twinner concept and of "flipping." This is from The Talisman.

[Wuducynn]

I don't care what you were referring to you stupid, worthless piece of bumbler shit. Take your copy of the Talisman (hardcover preferred) and shove it up your ass and then hop around squeeling in agony for awhile, take pictures and post them all over the internet.

[Wuducynn]

Please.

[Storyslinger]

He's got ya there, he did ask nicely
:lol:

[MonteGss]

:lol:
Alas...I only have the paperback edition. :D

[Wuducynn]

That will work too.

[Wuducynn]

Okay, bringing the thread back on topic for a moment..(sorry) if Monte shoved a hard or soft cover version of the Talisman up his ass and danced around squeeling in this world, does that mean his twinners would be doing the same in all the other worlds?

[Storyslinger]

He would be using a hot branding iron, because thats how they write, on animal skins :lol:

[MonteGss]

No, it doesn't. Life paths are similar but they aren't copies of one another. Their actions aren't duplicated.

[jayson]

No, it doesn't. Life paths are similar but they aren't copies of one another. Their actions aren't duplicated.

They may feel some other trauma in the same physiological region.:nana:

[Wuducynn]

No, it doesn't. Life paths are similar but they aren't copies of one another. Their actions aren't duplicated.

Yeah, thats what I thought. Now I wonder if Walter really has twinners so much or just different parts of one being.

[MonteGss]

A man who can split apart? Hmmm. Interesting thought.

[Wuducynn]

More like one being with its facets actual individual entities..thats what I believe Walter had become over his thousand plus years of sorcery.

[jayson]

More like one being with its facets actual individual entities..thats what I believe Walter had become over his thousand plus years of sorcery.

So he was his own ka-tet, one from many? All puns aside, I like your theory on Walter's nature.

[Storyslinger]

Yes, I can see the reasoning behind this. MAkes sence to me

[MonteGss]

More like one being with its facets actual individual entities..thats what I believe Walter had become over his thousand plus years of sorcery.

Yes, with your interpretation, I can see why you'd think The Talisman isn't such an integral book in the series. I still believe the concept of Twinners is closer to the truth of things but the idea of such a powerful being as you describe is pretty cool too. :thumbsup:

[Darkthoughts]

So CK, kind of like Voldemort with his horcruxes?

[Jean]

Okay, bringing the thread back on topic for a moment..(sorry) if Monte shoved a hard or soft cover version of the Talisman up his ass and danced around squeeling in this world, does that mean his twinners would be doing the same in all the other worlds?


No, it doesn't. Life paths are similar but they aren't copies of one another. Their actions aren't duplicated.

Rereading Black House, I just got to the moment where Jack notices scar on Sophie's hand, identical to the one on Judy's hand, and thinks that, even if they were caused by different events, he is sure it happened at the same moment.

[Wuducynn]

So CK, kind of like Voldemort with his horcruxes?

I'm sorry, but I don't speak Potterish.

[MonteGss]

Okay, bringing the thread back on topic for a moment..(sorry) if Monte shoved a hard or soft cover version of the Talisman up his ass and danced around squeeling in this world, does that mean his twinners would be doing the same in all the other worlds?


No, it doesn't. Life paths are similar but they aren't copies of one another. Their actions aren't duplicated.

Rereading Black House, I just got to the moment where Jack notices scar on Sophie's hand, identical to the one on Judy's hand, and thinks that, even if they were caused by different events, he is sure it happened at the same moment.

But this in no way means that Twinners are doing the exact same thing at the same time. By all means, their lives take similar courses but they are not "copies" of one another and I've seen no evidence of this in the saga, Jean my friend.

[Jean]

sorry - did I say anything that would contradict your last post???

::confused::

If anything, I was illustrating your thoughts, also trying to making it clear that nothing conclusive was said on Twinners' experience.

(that's what comes from gaining a specific reputation. It's not the first time I notice that if I don't explicitly say that I agree, people assume I disagree.)

[MonteGss]

sorry - did I say anything that contradicted your post above???

::confused::

If anything, I was illustrating your thoughts, also trying to making it clear that nothing conclusive was said on Twinners' experience.

Oh, gotcha! :thumbsup:
I thought your post was showing the ambiguity of the concept for sure, thanks! :)

I love talking about this stuff! :D

[Wuducynn]

(that's what comes from gaining a specific reputation. It's not the first time I notice that if I don't explicitly say that I agree, people assume I disagree.)

I don't know why that would be, I think you're very clear on your position on whatever the topic is.

[jayson]

Monte, it's been awhile since I last read The Talisman [overdue for a re-read], so please refresh my memory, though not twinners, what, if anything, was the relationship between Jack and Jason Deloessian?

[Jean]

As far as I remember, Jason was (would have been) Jack's Twinner, but he died very early (at birth?). That's what made Jack unique, so, to my mind, it's not the same uniqueness as Roland's or Walter's.

[jayson]

Jean, that's how I remember it as well. So Jack did have a twin in the Territories, but the twin died. Now, Jack has the ability to still get to the Territories without having a twin there, but I agree, this is wholly different than Roland or Walter who I do not believe have twins on any other level. It also begs the question of whether or not Jack/Jason have other representations on other levels, or if it would only be Jack. I know Monte thinks Jack is singular, but I remember nothing that specifically supports that theory.

[MonteGss]

I do not see Roland and Walter as that similar in terms of Twinners. Not even close. I think Roland is a very singular character and he has no Twinners. I do not believe Jack has multiple Twinners like I believe Walter to have. So, by the fact of Jason's death, Jack is similar to Roland cuz he has no Twinner.

[jayson]

I do not see Roland and Walter as that similar in terms of Twinners. Not even close. I think Roland is a very singular character and he has no Twinners. I do not believe Jack has multiple Twinners like I believe Walter to have. So, by the fact of Jason's death, Jack is similar to Roland cuz he has no Twinner.

Well, like I was saying, Jason was only Jack's twin on "the Territories" level of the Tower. Why do you necessarily think there were just the two, and that on all other levels of the Tower it's only Jack. I don't necessarily think you are wrong, I just want to know what your thinking is on this. As for Walter, I'm still not convinced he's not singular.

[Wuducynn]

I'm with R of G, I don't think Walter has any twinners..hes a singular being made of many beings.

[jayson]

I'm with R of G, I don't think Walter has any twinners..hes a singular being made of many beings.

I am Legion, hear me roar. :onfire:

Seriously though, I agree. I see Walter in much the same way. Marten, Flagg, Filario, et al, are aspects of the one Walter. :shoot:

[Wuducynn]

I am Legion, hear me roar. :onfire:

Seriously though, I agree. I see Walter in much the same way. Marten, Flagg, Filario, et al, are aspects of the one Walter. :shoot:

Right on. I also agree with Monte about twinners even though living similar lives don't necessarily have identical things happen to them etc.

[MonteGss]

I don't think you can agree with my concept of Twinners and then say that Walter is different. So... to put it simply: Walter is just a powerful magician that can shape shift?

Interesting idea to say the least but sadly I don't see if fitting as nicely as the idea of Twinners in the Dark Tower mythos. The concept of twins and Twinners is evident throughout the whole saga but a "guy" that becomes powerful enough to shape shift and have powers his boss, the CK didn't even have.

[MonteGss]

As for Walter, I'm still not convinced he's not singular.

If you ignore the Twinner connection in the Dark Tower series, it becomes much more difficult to accept King's questionable merging of Walter, Flagg and Marten that he did towards the end of the series. It was never, ever clear in the early books that these people were the same entity/person. That concept came along after King sped up and finished it, as well as touching up The Gunslinger to help his merging out a bit. If you think of these people (walt, flagg, marten) in the terms of Twinners as is explored in the Jack Sawyer books, then the character of Walter becomes easier to accept and enjoy. :)

[jayson]

[quote=R_of_G;76994] If you think of these people (walt, flagg, marten) in the terms of Twinners as is explored in the Jack Sawyer books, then the character of Walter becomes easier to accept and enjoy. :)

As I pointed out earlier though, I'm not sure the twinning concept from Talisman/Black House answers all. To me it simply answers the question of who the characters are on those two specific levels of the Tower, whatever world they start out in, and "the Territories." I'm not altogther convinced Jack has no other twinners besides the dead Jason on other levels of the Tower.

I do agree that King's revisions concerning Walter/Flagg/Marten make him a bit more complex to solve metaphysically, but that's what intrigues me about him.

[MonteGss]

I'm not altogther convinced Jack has no other twinners besides the dead Jason on other levels of the Tower.



And neither am I. That said, it changes nothing in regards to Walter, imo.

:thumbsup: to debating!

[Wuducynn]

Wait, the CK is a shape-shifter..I'm sorry, did you say that the CK doesn't have the power to shape shift?

[MonteGss]

I do agree that King's revisions concerning Walter/Flagg/Marten make him a bit more complex to solve metaphysically, but that's what intrigues me about him.

Well then let's have an intriguing theory about him...such as Twinners.
The powerful magician theory isn't worthy of explaining Walter.

[Wuducynn]

Well I already explained what I think Walter is and I'm still up in the air about him having twinners. I'm thinking he doesn't, that he like Roland is singular, but I can see both sides.

[MonteGss]

Wait, the CK is a shape-shifter..I'm sorry, did you say that the CK doesn't have the power to shape shift?

Hmm, I guess I never thought the shape-shifting affect of the CK was that of changing into different "people" like everyone seems to think Walter can do.

[Wuducynn]

Its still shape shifting, even though its not taking on a different personality altogether.

[MonteGss]

So, in that case, what I said is true. ;)

[Wuducynn]

but a "guy" that becomes powerful enough to shape shift and have powers his boss, the CK didn't even have.

I never said he had powers his boss didn't even have. I just said he can shape shift. I'm sure if Los' wanted to he could take on another personality entirely.

[MonteGss]

I'm sure if Los' wanted to he could take on another personality entirely.

I can't argue with this though we see no evidence of it in print.

[Wuducynn]

Bringing it back to the topic of twinners and Walter. I find your idea interesting and possible, same with mine. From evidence within the book and comic series we know Walter can become different personalities directly. I don't see any evidence from either that he has twinners in different worlds that he connects with mystically. If I'm understand you're idea correctly.

[MonteGss]

Bringing it back to the topic of twinners and Walter. I find your idea interesting and possible, same with mine. From evidence within the book and comic series we know Walter can become different personalities directly. I don't see any evidence from either that he has twinners in different worlds that he connects with mystically. If I'm understand you're idea correctly.

Questions for CK (or anyone else):
What do you believe it would look like if you witnessed, say Phillip Sawyer, flip into the Territories or back?

Could it possibly look exactly like it did when Marten "morphed" into Walter in the comics? As if he were "flipping" from one level of the Tower to another?

[Wuducynn]

Flipping was a movement between worlds, but I don't remember anyone flipping and changing like Walter shape changing.

[MonteGss]

Flipping was a movement between worlds, but I don't remember anyone flipping and changing like Walter shape changing.
Did you answer the question?

So you don't believe flipping between worlds (with a character that has twinners) looks like anything? It isn't possible that morphing isn't exactly that...flipping?

[Wuducynn]

I don't know what it would look like, because I don't remember it happening in any of the books. Could it look like that? I suppose. Is there any evidence for it? I don't remember any.

[Wuducynn]

We actually see Walter change shape in front of others and no he wasn't going from world to world at that moment. So in that case, no. But again it could be possible in other cases.

[MonteGss]

I don't know what it would look like, because I don't remember it happening in any of the books. Could it look like that? I suppose. Is there any evidence for it? I don't remember any.

Makes me want to reread The Talisman. :D

[MonteGss]

We actually see Walter change shape in front of others and no he wasn't going from world to world at that moment. So in that case, no. But again it could be possible in other cases.

Why wasn't he going from world to world?
Why is it not possible that Marten flipped onto another level of the tower and his twinner Walter appeared there? Why?

[Wuducynn]

He was right in front of the guard at the refinery and changed shape. Please provide evidence he was "switching from another world"?

[MonteGss]

I've never claimed there was evidence at all. Everything in this thread is speculation and nobody is correct because it has been left up in the air. I am using the idea of flipping to explain an occurrence that we'd never "seen" previously in the series.

[Wuducynn]

Right, and I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence of Walter's shape shifting ability but none about him flipping into his twinners. I said its a possiblity.

[Darkthoughts]

Monts - in Black House you "see" Jack flip. He goes sort of transparent and it describes how the grass he was lying on, retains the impression of his body for a moment, before springing back.

[MonteGss]

Monts - in Black House you "see" Jack flip. He goes sort of transparent and it describes how the grass he was lying on, retains the impression of his body for a moment, before springing back.

Cool! Thanks, I've only read Black House once and didn't remember specifics. :)

[MonteGss]

I have a question for the board:

What do you believe is the connection between, say, Henchick and Rev. Harrigan? What are they? Twins? Nothing? Tell me, I beg. :)

[Wuducynn]

Twinners.

[jayson]

I agree with Matt, twinners.

[MonteGss]

So, do they have a "connection" at all? Can they converse with each other? What is it that makes them Twinners as opposed to just coincidences or twins?

[jayson]

So, do they have a "connection" at all? Can they converse with each other? What is it that makes them Twinners as opposed to just coincidences or twins?

Ok, I suppose I didn't realize you differentiate between Twinners and twins. Am I correct in thinking the difference between the terms to you involves how much awareness one entity has of the other? If so, I will restate my answer to say they are twins, not Twinners. I don't think Harrigan is aware of Henchick, but I wouldn't necessarily say the same the other way. The manni are far travelers.

[MonteGss]

That is a good question sai. I do think that (most) Twinners are aware of one another as witnessed by Sloat/Morgan. I guess that means that twins do not have an awareness of one another. *shrugs*
It's cool to think about though. :)

[jayson]

That is a good question sai. I do think that (most) Twinners are aware of one another as witnessed by Sloat/Morgan. I guess that means that twins do not have an awareness of one another. *shrugs*
It's cool to think about though. :)

The term "twins" got thrown around a lot in the series, but some of it was really "triplets" or just repetition of syllables. For instance in one recollection Eddie has of the "twins" they've come across was Calla/Callahan. Surely Donald Callahan the man and Calla Bryn Sturgis the town are not twins by any definition. In actuality, the whole thing was how Eddie finally made the connection that King was writing their story. The "twins" concept was the "key," at least as far as I remember DT-6.

Twinners are a Talisman concept that carries over at least in theory to DT, but it's all speculative at that point [ie, what is the relationship between Eddie & Cuthbert?]

Any of that make sense?

[MonteGss]

Awesome! There's a great discussion going on in this thread and I love it. :)
Anyway, I'll start with your question. I say Eddie and Cuthbert are twins and the character of Stephen King says the same. They are from different whens rather than different worlds/levels.

I agree that "twins" gets thrown around a lot. I hope to gain more understanding of them here. :)

[Aerion]

Hello. This is my first post. Please be gentle. I'm re-reading book 7 and I was wondering why Sheemie doesn't recognize Eddie? Eddie and Cuthbert are twins, yeah? I would just figure he go more nuts over Bert than Roland (even though Sheemie says/thinks Cuthbert saved him, but Roland saved them all). Any thoughts? Thanks, Aerion.

[Letti]

It's a great first post so we can't do anything but be gentle.
To tell you the truth I haven't finished the last book yet but for my part I think Eddie and Cuthbert didn't look alike. Their personalities were very similar but they looked different.
Anyway different lifestyles can give you different looks. Eddie was a druh addict and such a thing can make a lot of changes in your body and on your face.
But still, the most important part is that I do think they looked different.

[MonteGss]

Perhaps this question should be discussed in the already existing, DT Twins and Twinners thread? No? :unsure:

[ManOfWesternesse]

I never thought of Eddie & 'Bert as looking alike!

OK, Eddie is 'like' Cuthbert in many ways - mannerisms / humour etc.. - but I don't think they looked at all alike physically?

[Kevin]

Aerion is right about one thing...Why didnt Sheemie recognize Cuthbert in Eddie? Even if they dont look alike, Sheemie still should have seen something in Eddie that reminded him of Cuthbert. But nothing is ever mentioned. Sheemie was practically in love with Cuthbert, surely he would have recognized Eddie's kindred soul/spirit.

[jayson]

Aerion is right about one thing...Why didnt Sheemie recognize Cuthbert in Eddie? Even if they dont look alike, Sheemie still should have seen something in Eddie that reminded him of Cuthbert. But nothing is ever mentioned. Sheemie was practically in love with Cuthbert, surely he would have recognized Eddie's kindred soul/spirit.

I don't think that Eddie's "Cuthbertness" is something even a powerful consciousness like Sheemie's can instantly pick up on. Just look at how long it took Roland to go from having Eddie remind him of Cuthbert to realizing that on some level Eddie is Cuthbert. So if it takes Roland that long to recognize that, I could forgive Sheemie for not putting it together with all else that was going on. I do think this was a good question though, because we still don't know all of what Sheemie was capable. I was very happy to see him return in DT-7.

[Jean]

Aerion is right about one thing...Why didnt Sheemie recognize Cuthbert in Eddie? Even if they dont look alike, Sheemie still should have seen something in Eddie that reminded him of Cuthbert. But nothing is ever mentioned. Sheemie was practically in love with Cuthbert, surely he would have recognized Eddie's kindred soul/spirit.
I think it confirms the opinion I've held all the time: that Eddie is not Cuthbert's twinner, or twin, or reincarnation, or anything of the sort.

[jayson]

I think it confirms the opinion I've held all the time: that Eddie is not Cuthbert's twinner, or twin, or reincarnation, or anything of the sort.

Roland doesn't seem to agree with you in DT-6. He tells Eddie as much.

[ManOfWesternesse]

I think it confirms the opinion I've held all the time: that Eddie is not Cuthbert's twinner, or twin, or reincarnation, or anything of the sort.

Roland doesn't seem to agree with you in DT-6. He tells Eddie as much.
:lol: I'm with Jean, not Roland, on this one
I'm convinced Eddie is just 'like' Cuthbert - not a twin/ not a twinner / not some kind of re-incarnation of Cuthbert.

[jayson]

I think it confirms the opinion I've held all the time: that Eddie is not Cuthbert's twinner, or twin, or reincarnation, or anything of the sort.

Roland doesn't seem to agree with you in DT-6. He tells Eddie as much.
:lol: I'm with Jean, not Roland, on this one
I'm convinced Eddie is just 'like' Cuthbert - not a twin/ not a twinner / not some kind of re-incarnation of Cuthbert.

I didn't say I disagreed with Jean either, though Roland seems to think Jean is off base. I just re-read DT-6 this week, and it is still fresh in my mind. Roland tells Eddie that ka is a wheel and he [Eddie] has been spinning on it for a LONG time under many names, one of them being Cuthbert. This sounds to me like Roland thinks they are more than just two people he partnered up with who both like to make jokes. Now, am I sure Roland is right and Jean is wrong? Nope.

[ManOfWesternesse]

....Roland tells Eddie that ka is a wheel and he [Eddie] has been spinning on it for a LONG time under many names, one of them being Cuthbert. This sounds to me like Roland thinks they are more than just two people he partnered up with who both like to make jokes. Now, am I sure Roland is right and Jean is wrong? Nope.

Ah! now I know the reference youre talking about.
Of course we all know that....
Eddie has indeed been spinning on that wheel for a lot longer than he thinks - as have the others.
But yes... that reference to " ....under many names, one of them being Cuthbert..." does throw me a bit. Just what exactly does Roland mean by that?

[jayson]

Just what exactly does Roland mean by that?

I interpret it to mean that Roland thinks that in some fundamental way Eddie is Cuthbert. I'm not altogether sure Roland reads into it any furthur than that, but that he'd chalk it up to ka.:shoot:

[Jean]

I just don't think that what Roland, or any other character (of any book worth speaking of) says or thinks is anything other than his personal opinions and beliefs. As such, they should never be taken for granted, but always tested against everything else we know within the context of the story.

[Letti]

I think we should let Roland and Jean talk about it... ;)


For my part I don't think Roland thinks Eddie is Cuthbert himself. Yeah, they are similar and they are very different, too.
Anyway... Roland lost Cuthbert it's natural he tries to see him in Eddie. That's how our souls work.
I lost one of my bestest friends (she is still alive, long story) and I so often see her in others. I used to see her eveywhere (on buses, on trains stuff like that) and when I looked at that person a bit more closely I realised they weren't similar at all. Sometimes I thought her face would never leave me and as long as I live I would see her 4 times a day.

[sarah]

I'm with Jean. I don't think Eddie and Cuthbert are twinners. I think they're similar and have many traits in common but not twins and not the same person reincarnated.

[Matt]

Great first post Aerion, this spurred a heck of a discussion.

I am in the camp that Eddie was like Cuthbert but didn't actually look like him in any way. I'm not sure that in the time they spent together, Sheemie could be counted on to see the similarities.

[jayson]

For the record, I also think they are indidviduals. It's my opinion that ka continues to give Roland certain types of people, but that the connections are only ka-deep, they aren't connected in any metaphysical way. Cuthbert and Eddie filled VERY similar roles for Roland, but I don't think Eddie was Bert. I do still think Roland thinks he is.:shoot:

[sarah]

For the record, I also think they are indidviduals. It's my opinion that ka continues to give Roland certain types of people, but that the connections are only ka-deep, they aren't connected in any metaphysical way. Cuthbert and Eddie filled VERY similar roles for Roland, but I don't think Eddie was Bert. I do still think Roland thinks he is.:shoot:




:clap: well said, r of g. this is exactly how i feel. :D

[tamez]

Great first post Aerion, this spurred a heck of a discussion.

I am in the camp that Eddie was like Cuthbert but didn't actually look like him in any way. I'm not sure that in the time they spent together, Sheemie could be counted on to see the similarities.

i am in this camp with you :huglove:

[Matt]

I love that camp :wub:

:cool: :couple: <--us

[Spencer]

I never thought of Eddie & 'Bert as looking alike!

OK, Eddie is 'like' Cuthbert in many ways - mannerisms / humour etc.. - but I don't think they looked at all alike physically?

That was always my thought, plus the fact, that, despite Jae Lee's rendition, Cuthbert was blonde.

[Spencer]

Of course we all know that....
Eddie has indeed been spinning on that wheel for a lot longer than he thinks - as have the others.


and I think that Brian just started a whole new discussion, because I happen to disagree with what's in the spoiler tags. :lol: What would be the best forum to discuss this in?

[Spencer]

[quote=R_of_G;78524]
But yes... that reference to " ....under many names, one of them being Cuthbert..." does throw me a bit. Just what exactly does Roland mean by that?

Do you have the page number and/or book where he said that? I don't remember that passage, I'd like to look it up. I'm thinking it would have to be Book VI, I'll peruse that and see if I can find it.

[jayson]

[quote=R_of_G;78524]
But yes... that reference to " ....under many names, one of them being Cuthbert..." does throw me a bit. Just what exactly does Roland mean by that?

Do you have the page number and/or book where he said that? I don't remember that passage, I'd like to look it up. I'm thinking it would have to be Book VI, I'll peruse that and see if I can find it.

It is DT-6. I will look for the page number and post it here when I find it.

[Arthur Heath]

Although the book does state twins I always thought of Eddie as the reincarnation of Cuthbert. Therefore the personality traits would be the same but the physical traits would not be similar. I was also disappointed that Sheemie does not get more excited over Eddie. I see it as Roland stole what little spotlight Bert had in the series.

[Matt]

[quote=R_of_G;78524]
But yes... that reference to " ....under many names, one of them being Cuthbert..." does throw me a bit. Just what exactly does Roland mean by that?

Do you have the page number and/or book where he said that? I don't remember that passage, I'd like to look it up. I'm thinking it would have to be Book VI, I'll peruse that and see if I can find it.

It is DT-6. I will look for the page number and post it here when I find it.

This is when the reference companion will come in handy :clap:

[jayson]

[quote=R_of_G;78524]
But yes... that reference to " ....under many names, one of them being Cuthbert..." does throw me a bit. Just what exactly does Roland mean by that?

Do you have the page number and/or book where he said that? I don't remember that passage, I'd like to look it up. I'm thinking it would have to be Book VI, I'll peruse that and see if I can find it.

It is DT-6. I will look for the page number and post it here when I find it.

This is when the reference companion will come in handy :clap:

It would also help if my latest re-read wasn't audiobook! I remember hearing it, but finding it in the book is a different story.

[jayson]

Ok Spencer, I have found it.

Song of Susannah Grant hardcover edition, pg. 293

Roland smiled. "Ka is a wheel. You've been turning on it under different names for a long time. Cuthbert for one it seems."

Additionally, on pg. 292, Stephen King the character says "Eddie and Cuthbert are twins."

So as I stated earlier, we may not believe there is a specific connection between Eddie & Bert, but it seems clear that Roland does.

[Matt]

Cool sig pic there R :cool:

[jayson]

Cool sig pic there R :cool:

Thankee sai Matt for the help getting it displayed.

[MonteGss]

For the record, there are now two different threads talking about the same thing.

[sarajean]

that has now been taken care of, dear monte. :D

[Aerion]

Ok Spencer, I have found it.

Song of Susannah Grant hardcover edition, pg. 293

Roland smiled. "Ka is a wheel. You've been turning on it under different names for a long time. Cuthbert for one it seems."

Additionally, on pg. 292, Stephen King the character says "Eddie and Cuthbert are twins."

So as I stated earlier, we may not believe there is a specific connection between Eddie & Bert, but it seems clear that Roland does.


Maybe I should mention there are spoilers down below. Not sure if any warnings are needed since DT 7 is three years old.

Also, in the Drawing of the Three, I thought I remember Roland telling Eddie something like "I knew you were a gunslinger when I laid eyes on you" I don't have that book to give an exact quote. So, I always assumed (or hoped/wished) from that line and all the Eddie-like traits Roland mentions, that Eddie was Cuthbert or at least his twin. Even though they have different names and Eddie has no clues to a former life, we see what happens with Jake when Susannah finds Eddie at the end of DT 7 and I think most would agree that he is our Jake (maybe not Jake, son of Elmer, however).

[Childe 007]

Ok Spencer, I have found it.

Song of Susannah Grant hardcover edition, pg. 293

Roland smiled. "Ka is a wheel. You've been turning on it under different names for a long time. Cuthbert for one it seems."

Additionally, on pg. 292, Stephen King the character says "Eddie and Cuthbert are twins."

So as I stated earlier, we may not believe there is a specific connection between Eddie & Bert, but it seems clear that Roland does.


Maybe I should mention there are spoilers down below. Not sure if any warnings are needed since DT 7 is three years old.

Also, in the Drawing of the Three, I thought I remember Roland telling Eddie something like "I knew you were a gunslinger when I laid eyes on you" I don't have that book to give an exact quote. So, I always assumed (or hoped/wished) from that line and all the Eddie-like traits Roland mentions, that Eddie was Cuthbert or at least his twin. Even though they have different names and Eddie has no clues to a former life, we see what happens with Jake when Susannah finds Eddie at the end of DT 7 and I think most would agree that he is our Jake (maybe not Jake, son of Elmer, however).


Twins not "twinners" and there is a difference.

The Eddie and Jake that Susannah finds at the end of DTVII are those guys twinners. And - I don't agree that twinners always know about each other - in fact I think we were told in The Talisman that it was rare. It seemed common to Jack - because his father knew (and Jack was special.)

I have always thought that when Roland "draws" his ka-tet through the doors on the beach that he is himself "drawn" to kindred spirits of that original ka-tet of Cuthbert, Alain, and Susan. Not twinners - not those people re-incarnated - but "twins" - those imbibed of the same charcter of his first ka-tet.

[jayson]

Twins not "twinners" and there is a difference.

Not twinners - not those people re-incarnated - but "twins" - those imbibed of the same charcter of his first ka-tet.

Like I said, I believe the major difference is that "Twinners" is a Talisman concept, and the "twins" thing in the Tower books was not to literally mean that there was any connection between characters, instead it was just repetition of names and places and things to (a) illustrate the whole multi-verse thing, and (b) hint to the characters that they were "characters" in a story. it is pondering the whole twin thing [particularly John Sturgis and Calla Bryn Sturgis] that makes eddie grasp the concept that king is writing their story. it all makes for lovely speculation though.

[Wuducynn]

*Stealthily and yet with much love, sets Maerlyn on fire* :onfire:

[MonteGss]

From The Talisman:
When one Migrated and entered the body of one's Twinner, the result was a kind of benign possession.

[Brice]

Monte, if twinners are not different yous then how do you envision them? What is their nature?

[MonteGss]

Ok, here is a short answer for you Brice. Hopefully I can expand it (or revise it) more through learning and discussion.

I do not believe that Twinners are different people but the same person...or same "soul" if you will. When somebody "flips" into another level of the Tower, he switches places with his opposite/twinner.
Jack has no Twinner, so when he flips, he just disappears and fades away. When "Walter" flips, another persona (aka Marten, Flagg, whoever) flips with him, trading places though the memories/soul stays in tact.

Please question me and my ideas so that I may learn and gain more knowledge from the awesomeness of fellow DT junkies. :D

[Brice]

Ok, here is a short answer for you Brice. Hopefully I can expand it (or revise it) more through learning and discussion.

I do not believe that Twinners are different people but the same person...or same "soul" if you will. When somebody "flips" into another level of the Tower, he switches places with his opposite/twinner.
Jack has no Twinner, so when he flips, he just disappears and fades away. When "Walter" flips, another persona (aka Marten, Flagg, whoever) flips with him, trading places though the memories/soul stays in tact.

Please question me and my ideas so that I may learn and gain more knowledge from the awesomeness of fellow DT junkies. :D


Nope, sorry! :P

[obscurejude]

Monte, help me out with point of view.

Is it Walter in Flagg or Flagg in Walter etc...

Is it the Keystone conscious that is in control?

[MonteGss]

Monte, help me out with point of view.

Is it Walter in Flagg or Flagg in Walter etc...

Is it the Keystone conscious that is in control?

I think this is a good question jude. First off, does it matter which is "in" the other? If they are essentially the same?

Although I previously never thought of it in that way, thinking about it, I would have to say that yes, the Keystone conscious is the one that flips.

Thoughts? :)

[Brice]

Monte, help me out with point of view.

Is it Walter in Flagg or Flagg in Walter etc...

Is it the Keystone conscious that is in control?

I think this is a good question jude. First off, does it matter which is "in" the other? If they are essentially the same?

Although I previously never thought of it in that way, thinking about it, I would have to say that yes, the Keystone conscious is the one that flips.

Thoughts? :)

No!











yes, but later when I've had time to think more

[obscurejude]

Monte, it might not matter in terms of a story line progression, but it matters epistemologically. If Callahan A flips into Callahan B, does Callahan B's history become Callahan A's or the inverse? It would seem that one consciousness would have to be stronger than the other. Do you see what I mean? That's why I posed the question about point of view in terms of how we think about it and not necessarily story line progression. If Callahan A is Keystone Callahan then it would make sense that he is the only Callahan that is able to flip. If All-World is the same as Keystone (at this in regards to existential reality) then Walter could be the undermining reality and flip into Marten, Flagg, etc... It is harder for me to conceptualize it if they are all exactly the same...

Fuck, its even hard for me to post.

*rubs head*

(plus I just had a very interesting, but complex conversation on the phone).

[Wuducynn]

That'll do it to you every time.

[alinda]

[QUOTE=obscurejude;165339] It would seem that one consciousness would have to be stronger than the other. Do you see what I mean?

Isnt all consciousness the same consciousness? or are you meaning specific to the story and Pere Callahan?

[obscurejude]

Not necessarily Alinda. I think it might be tied to the reason why Keystone World is unique (and All-World, its twin). They are real in ways the other worlds are not.

Think of Roland inside of Jack Mort's head. There was a give and take with both of them. The same thing would happen with Callahan A and Callahan B unless one just naturally became in control (suddenly able to understand the other's language and currency etc...). I think its got to be Keystone Callahan, or Callahan B would rebel against the entity in his head.

Honestly Alinda, I have no idea what you're asking. Hope this helps.

[MonteGss]

If Callahan A is Keystone Callahan then it would make sense that he is the only Callahan that is able to flip. If All-World is the same as Keystone then Walter could be the undermining reality and flip into Marten, Flagg, etc... It is harder for me to conceptualize it if they are all exactly the same...

Fuck, its even hard for me to post.

*rubs head*



I like where you're going here. In terms of Walter/Flagg/Marten, one of them would have to be the "keystone" entity and is doing the flipping...the starting point, if you like. I would say that Walter is the keystone person and when he flips, it is Marten/Flagg's history that becomes the history. However, I don't think this means that the previous history becomes forgotten.

Yes, this is difficult to wrap my head around at times. Maybe I need a beer.

[Darkthoughts]

I think that Flagg is a very complex and contradictory character to examine in terms of twinners/twins.

On one hand I'm inclined to say, that there is only one Flagg in any where or when at any one time, and that it is the act of flipping to another where/when itself (when he has finished a particular course of mischief and sets off to start another) that sometimes causes his seemingly partial amnesia. I do think Flagg is a very unique character, and in that way I feel he may be outside of the usual constructs and concepts of parallel universes.

The Stand (uncut version) could be used to illustrate this as a theory - where Flagg's memories of his past are very disjointed and clouded. Though the same book could also be used in favour of the argument that there are multiple Flagg's with a dominant Keystone Flagg, really running the show.

On the whole, is the main theory being forwarded here that every alternate when/level of the Tower - contains an alternate you?

[MonteGss]

On the whole, is the main theory being forwarded here that every alternate when/level of the Tower - contains an alternate you?

No. I think that would be a stretch to say that every level of the Tower has another you or a Twinner of you.

Thanks for your thoughts Lisa. It's an interesting concept, Twinners, isn't it? :D

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, I agree - I was going to argue against the theory if it had been what you were saying :lol:

So, you do think also then (this being something which I do agree with) that singular people can travel between worlds?
I think Jack is almost a bad example, because he essentially is a twinner, despite Jason being dead.

[MonteGss]

Yes, I do think singulars can travel between worlds.
Some of us were talking about Callahan yesterday. I'm not really sure what I believe when it comes to his highways in hiding travels and whether or not he has a twin or Twinners.

[Darkthoughts]

I was discussing him...in the baronies was it? I think he's singular, to me there wasn't any evidence to the contrary.

[MonteGss]

I'm not too convinced there is either. Certainly I think he can "flip" between different levels of the Tower...don't you feel this is what he was doing when he went from different versions of NJ?

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, definately. I think that he'd simply found a crossroads of sorts where the ways between multiple levels of the Tower were very thin.

[MonteGss]

Oh yeah, I somehow forgot about the thin places. So maybe there is nothing special about him at all (in terms of Tower-traveling that is).
It's a good thing you're here to remind me of these things. :lol:

I do think Ted is his twin though, as was briefly mentioned in DT7.

[Darkthoughts]

Aha! Likewise, I'd forgotten that ;)

[Wuducynn]

Thats true about Ted and Henchick and Rev. Harrigan, my favorite firebrand whackjob preacher ever!

[MonteGss]

Hmmm. I thought it was Ted and Callahan and then Henchick and Harrigan....I wouldn't put them all together since Henchick and Callahan existed in the same when/where.

[Wuducynn]

I meant that it was true what you posted about Ted and Callahan.

[MonteGss]

OK. :cool: :thumbsup:

[obscurejude]

I don't really have a problem with the idea that most levels of the towers contain an alternate version any particular person. I think that's obvious with Eddie and Jake at the end of DT 7. Its also interesting that Susannah begins to lose her memories of All World almost immediately. Is it an option to say that Susannah flipped one final time?

[Darkthoughts]

I always hated the alternate Jake and Eddie part. I felt it cheated them in some way - I felt they deserved to be singular. SK practically made it clear Jake was singular when he almost went mad in The Wastelands.
Sometimes Twinners suck!

[Wuducynn]

I always hated the alternate Jake and Eddie part. I felt it cheated them in some way - I felt they deserved to be singular. SK practically made it clear Jake was singular when he almost went mad in The Wastelands.
Sometimes Twinners suck!

Do you need a spankin', young lady??

[Letti]

I always hated the alternate Jake and Eddie part. I felt it cheated them in some way - I felt they deserved to be singular. SK practically made it clear Jake was singular when he almost went mad in The Wastelands.
Sometimes Twinners suck!

I must agree from the bottom of my heart.

[Wuducynn]

I definitely don't. I disagree from the bottom of my heart. I LOVED that Susannah got to have some reuniting with Eddie and Jake. It was very touching and sad and sweet all wrapped up.

[Jean]

yes

[MonteGss]

I definitely don't. I disagree from the bottom of my heart. I LOVED that Susannah got to have some reuniting with Eddie and Jake. It was very touching and sad and sweet all wrapped up.

Well said CK. Better a "false" happy ending for her than a sad one.

[MonteGss]

I always hated the alternate Jake and Eddie part. I felt it cheated them in some way - I felt they deserved to be singular. SK practically made it clear Jake was singular when he almost went mad in The Wastelands.
Sometimes Twinners suck!

I have no real reason to believe this but I think that anyone from Earth, Keystone or not, has a Twinner.

[Jean]

I definitely don't. I disagree from the bottom of my heart. I LOVED that Susannah got to have some reuniting with Eddie and Jake. It was very touching and sad and sweet all wrapped up.
I never thought of them as of twinners, though (we seem to have talked about that elsewhere, or even here, or maybe I dreamed that - haven't been very clear about anything lately)

[MonteGss]

Jean, how would you define or explain Twinners? Explain them to me, so I can understand your viewpoint....if you please, sir?

[Jean]

in July.

The problem is, I have no theory or any clear understanding of that, only Roland-esque hunches. Like Roland, I am used to relying on them; unlike Roland, I can hope to sooner or later put them into categories to test against other categories, and into words to share them with you and test against your ideas... but not right now

[obscurejude]

I definitely don't. I disagree from the bottom of my heart. I LOVED that Susannah got to have some reuniting with Eddie and Jake. It was very touching and sad and sweet all wrapped up.
I never thought of them as of twinners, though (we seem to have talked about that elsewhere, or even here, or maybe I dreamed that - haven't been very clear about anything lately)

I think we've talked about it before Jean, but not since the Keystone and Ves Ka threads made us delve into it deeper.

[Jean]

yeah, right... I lost track about that time... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_sad.gif

[Darkthoughts]

I definitely don't. I disagree from the bottom of my heart. I LOVED that Susannah got to have some reuniting with Eddie and Jake. It was very touching and sad and sweet all wrapped up.

Well said CK. Better a "false" happy ending for her than a sad one.

Not at all!

Susannah is a big girl and she can take care of herself. She said her goodbyes to Eddie and I think it should have been left there. Bearing in mind that she started losing her memories when she entered her final door, it wasn't even emotionally necessary for her to find another Eddie.

It was sad, Jake's death even more so for me...but I don't want a literary equivalent of a sweetie to take my mind off my scraped knee, their deaths were very powerful but "bringing them back" cheapened it for me.

Give me the sad ending any day. Letti - :huglove: we'll dig the sadness together ;)

[Wuducynn]

Well its not like its a full reuniting, they're not the same Eddie and Jake as the ones she knew. They're Eddie and Jake on a different level of the Tower. So its still sad and yet sweet also. I also don't agree that its a "false" happy ending, but not an ending for her at all. A new chance to have a better life.

[jayson]

Well its not like its a full reuniting, they're not the same Eddie and Jake as the ones she knew.

The notion that they are a different Eddie & Jake is what makes it cheap for me. It's as if Susannah settled for "close enough." I don't know if this is what Lisa is saying, so I will let her speak for herself, but if Susannah chose to go through that door to have some kind of happy ending with a different Eddie, in my eyes, cheapens what she had with the "real" Eddie.

[Wuducynn]

Well its not like its a full reuniting, they're not the same Eddie and Jake as the ones she knew.

The notion that they are a different Eddie & Jake is what makes it cheap for me. It's as if Susannah settled for "close enough." I don't know if this is what Lisa is saying, so I will let her speak for herself, but if Susannah chose to go through that door to have some kind of happy ending with a different Eddie, in my eyes, cheapens what she had with the "real" Eddie.


I think we'll just have to agree to agree that you and Lisa are totally fucked in the head and wrong through and through... *sigh* you'll be alright though, buck up little camper! :huglove:

[jayson]

I think we'll just have to agree to agree that you and Lisa are totally fucked in the head and wrong through and through... *sigh* you'll be alright though, buck up little camper! :huglove:

at least i have company. :)

[MonteGss]

R_of_G....do you think it's at all possible for a Twinner of Eddie (or Jake) to share the same consciousness/memories, in effect, making it the "same" Eddie?

I'm not saying this is what I believe but I'd like your opinion. :)

[jayson]

R_of_G....do you think it's at all possible for a Twinner of Eddie (or Jake) to share the same consciousness/memories, in effect, making it the "same" Eddie?

I'm not saying this is what I believe but I'd like your opinion. :)

Good question Monte. From the little I understand of Twinners, I would certainly say it's in the realm of possibility that a Twinner could have access to the consciousness/memories of his/her twin. Even so, I'm still not sure that I would consider them the "same" person as the one who actually experienced the memories firsthand. Good question!

[Wuducynn]

I guess one person's "cheapens" is another person's "enhance the mystery and bittersweetness of the end". Because thats what it did for me.

[obscurejude]

Are the Territories All World? It seems that this is strongly implied at the end of Black House. If that's the case, then it sort of challenges the notion that the Keystone Conscious is the most powerful. Unless, of course, the Talisman and Black House do not take place on Keystone Earth (as in the case of the Stand). I guess the latter and not the former could be correct bc the Tower exist as a hotel in Jack's world and not the rose.

I guess I'm thinking out loud.

For the record, I share Jayson's and Lisa's sentiments in regards to Susannah.

[MonteGss]

I don't believe the Territories are All-World. I always thought it was the world "next door." I also don't believe Jack's world is Keystone...though, besides the hotel, I have no other strong reason to believe that.

[obscurejude]

Monte, what about the Sisters of Eluria? Isn't that the same tent that he visits in Black House?

[Wuducynn]

Yeah, I don't feel they are the same. Too many differences, than similarities. Although connected to All-World, like ours is.

[obscurejude]

CK, what about sisters?

[MonteGss]

Monte, what about the Sisters of Eluria? Isn't that the same tent that he visits in Black House?

I personally thought it was a similar tent, but not the same one. I figure that things like the Doctors and the Sisters are present in many levels of the Tower....feeding and surviving where they can.

[Wuducynn]

Didn't whats-his-name there, say that where they held palaver was an inbetween place? Also, the Sisters traveled around I believe. They weren't always in Eluria.

[obscurejude]

You two might be right, I haven't read it in awhile. But doesn't the prologue to Sisters say something about the idea coming to King after writing Black House. I took that to mean that it was the same tent.

Also, what about the dialog between Parkus and the woman (forgot her name) about Jack. It sounded like Parkus was a part of Roland's world. Damn, I wish I had a copy at my house, but I left it in a box at my parent's.

[Wuducynn]

I don't have access to Black House right now. I'll have to look up the palaver scene when I get home. But since it is one of my favorite parts of the book, I do remember it pretty well. It is an Sisters tent but I think they travel around, possibly different levels of the Tower too.
Its left pretty unclear where Parkus was really from, but he has a lot of knowledge about different levels of the Tower.

[Darkthoughts]

Backtracking in the conversation a bit here:
Yes, Jayson - I do think that the fact that she could take a substitute Eddie so easily cheapens what they had...we are agreeing in full ;)

CK, I'm kinda surprised in a way that you liked it so much - it was too saccharine an ending for me. I think Suze embarking on a new life period, was a fitting ending for a brave woman - it would have been continuing the theme of the new person she had become. I guess maybe SK just wanted to leave us as few loose ends as possible though...?

Patrick Danville on the other hand I really did want a sappy, "happily ever after" for.

[Wuducynn]

Backtracking in the conversation a bit here:
Yes, Jayson - I do think that the fact that she could take a substitute Eddie so easily cheapens what they had...we are agreeing in full ;)

CK, I'm kinda surprised in a way that you liked it so much - it was too saccharine an ending for me. I think Suze embarking on a new life period, was a fitting ending for a brave woman - it would have been continuing the theme of the new person she had become. I guess maybe SK just wanted to leave us as few loose ends as possible though...?

Patrick Danville on the other hand I really did want a sappy, "happily ever after" for.

I'm a surprising asshole.

[Darkthoughts]

I'm beginning to think you're a surprising sweetheart...thats far worse than asshole for you, surely! :P

[Wuducynn]

Maybe I'm both an asshole AND a sweetheart! A sweetasshole! :o

[Matt]

???

Welcome to the site uuvbbz

Have any theories of your own on this stuff?

[Wuducynn]

Guess he or she didn't get much chance to give their opinion .... :lol:

[Empath of the White]

I don't believe the Territories are All-World. I always thought it was the world "next door."

Myself as well. I saw the Territories as being a kind of "bridge world" if you will between All-World and one of the multiple versions of our world. I'm not sure which version though, and I have no idea why I believe this. It just popped into my head one day.

[Matt]

I'm not sure, I always considered the Territories a piece of "All World" but it may be that it is simply another level of the Tower.

Not Roland, not us...another one in an infinite number

[Empath of the White]

Its possible. For a moment I thought Jack wound up in the Calla at the end of Black House. Could you define what you mean by a piece of All-World?

[MonteGss]

Also, what about the dialog between Parkus and the woman (forgot her name) about Jack. It sounded like Parkus was a part of Roland's world.

You are referring to Sophie asking if he is a Gunslinger? She does and he denies it, though he carries guns in that particular scene. As we both know, "Speedy" is present in other levels of the Tower and to me, this explains how he knows of Roland and his new band of gunslingers.

[Bluenose]

I'm pretty sure the Territories are part of Rolands world - In the scene that MonteGss and obscurejude mention, to me anyway, Parkus words imply that he is on the same level of the Tower, cos gunslingers were once known there - "I guess carrying these things have gone to my head" or something like that. So unless every gunslinger was able to flip to different levels of the Tower, they must once have been known there.

Sorry, its been a long time since I read Black House (FAR too long) please correct me if thats not right :)

I also think that Roland is the 'salvation' or whatever way you choose to dress it up, becuase he is unique - there is no twin for him to flip to or whatever, he just goes, like Jack did, like Walter does.

[Darkthoughts]

Roland doesn't appear to flip in any of the DT books, though. He has to travel via thinnies and other doorways.

[Brainslinger]

Very interesting discussion. I've just come to this thread (and this section of the board for that matter) so I've been munching my way through these posts.

My thoughts on various things mentioned (apologies if this is long):

There are suggestions that the Territories is part of All-World. Bev Vincent in his book actually states that he believes they are a borderland region akin to the Callas. I disagree. First of all, they suggested strongly in Black House that the borderlands in which they have their palaver are not quite the territories, although they are close.

Whether or not they are in the same world, or part of All-World, I don't know. I thought maybe the Borderlands was in fact a kind of Borderland world (rather than a bordeland geographical region) between the territories and Mid-World/All-World, but I'm not certain. The Borderlands could be part of All-World, but I don't think the territories are. (I often wonder how the flying men brought Sophie to that region. Does that mean it's the same world as the territories or did they travel through a doorway of some sort?)

Also the descriptions of the territories in The Talisman is rather different form Roland's world. Both are potent in their own way, and there are cultural similarities, but All-world is a moving on, everything is stretching apart, literally. The territories, on the other hand, is a tight smaller place. The horizon is literally closer. Its a world, far from moving on.

However the world Jack travels too with the biker lads through the Black House is End-World, certainly part of the same level as Mid/All-World.

As for twinners etc. I am sometimes reticent in using that term in The Dark Tower books, since the relationship between twinners seems to be different. There are multiple versions of the same person across different worlds in both books certainly. And I'm sure they're minds are linked in both series (DT and Talisman/Black House) in some ways, albeit subconsiously. That being said, if the comics are to be considered canon, Vannay, Roland's teacher, used the term 'twinners' to refer to alternate versions. Its as good a term as any I suppose.

However with the Territories, the fate of the twinners is usually linked, i.e. a wound to one person is experienced by their twinner. If someone dies then so does their twinner (with some exceptions like Jack and his friend due to better medical treatment in one world.)

In the DT books though, the twins seem to follow the quantum theory idea of multiple universes, (not that it's exactly the same, King not being an expert in that field) i.e. twinners take different routes, the death of one doesn't affect another etc. In fact if one person dies in one world, strongly suggest that there will be another version alive in another world due to the nature of different routes from different circumstances.

I'm also of the opinion the two Toren brothers are twinners of Eddie and Jake rather than actually them, but on some level they are still the same, as with all twinners. I also loved that ending, and I didn't see it as Susannah opting for second best. The though occurred, but emotionally I still found it satisfying. As the world move on, people have to move on with their lives. When partners die, sooner or later people may find other partners. In Suze's case they were both different and the same at once, and no bad thing in this case. Beside, her dreams and feeling up until then strongly suggest she was meant to be there. And that makes it ok too.

Duplicate Rolands and Flaggs:
I'm of the opinion there is only one Roland. Roland and King are twins of a sort in the sense that there are similarities between father and son but that's a different thing to twinners.

As for Flagg, I thought the idea of flipping twinners causing Flagg's shape-shifting was interesting, but I disagree. When a person flips into their twinner they look like their twinner. So if there was say a Flagg in America and a Walter in Mid-World, and Flagg flipped into Walter, surely Walter would still look the same regardless or whether he was possessed or not. It could be argued as a sorceror, the being with veto might be able to bring his form forward, but I don't think that's the case here.

In my opinion, Walter ability to change has nothing to do with twinners or flipping. He is using glamour. I agree with CK that think that his transformation might be more than just physical, that his mind becomes too, but thats a whole other thing. (I'm not even certain he actually physically changes, but more alters people perception of him... that's another thing.)

I do think Flagg might have twinners in other worlds though, but I don't think that plays a role in his shape-shifting. The date in which the superflu happened is different in the super-flu world visited by the ka-tet in Wizard and Glass to the dates in both versions of the Stand. This suggest they're different worlds (although there are other explanations), and if thats the case the 2 Flaggs are different as it seems unlikely one guys would do the exact same antics in both. Also Flagg's history seems somewhat different in the Stand to Walter of All-world... although amnesia could be cause if they were the same.

[Brainslinger]

Gordon Bennit! I didn't think it would be that long!

[Empath of the White]

Very interesting discussion. I've just come to this thread (and this section of the board for that matter) so I've been munching my way through these posts.

My thoughts on various things mentioned (apologies if this is long):

There are suggestions that the Territories is part of All-World. Bev Vincent in his book actually states that he believes they are a borderland region akin to the Callas. I disagree. First of all, they suggested strongly in Black House that the borderlands in which they have their palaver are not quite the territories, although they are close.

Whether or not they are in the same world, or part of All-World, I don't know. I thought maybe the Borderlands was in fact a kind of Borderland world (rather than a bordeland geographical region) between the territories and Mid-World/All-World, but I'm not certain. The Borderlands could be part of All-World, but I don't think the territories are. (I often wonder how the flying men brought Sophie to that region. Does that mean it's the same world as the territories or did they travel through a doorway of some sort?)

Also the descriptions of the territories in The Talisman is rather different form Roland's world. Both are potent in their own way, and there are cultural similarities, but All-world is a moving on, everything is stretching apart, literally. The territories, on the other hand, is a tight smaller place. The horizon is literally closer. Its a world, far from moving on.

However the world Jack travels too with the biker lads through the Black House is End-World, certainly part of the same level as Mid/All-World.
As for twinners etc. I am sometimes reticent in using that term in The Dark Tower books, since the relationship between twinners seems to be different. There are multiple versions of the same person across different worlds in both books certainly. And I'm sure they're minds are linked in both series (DT and Talisman/Black House) in some ways, albeit subconsiously. That being said, if the comics are to be considered canon, Vannay, Roland's teacher, used the term 'twinners' to refer to alternate versions. Its as good a term as any I suppose.

However with the Territories, the fate of the twinners is usually linked, i.e. a wound to one person is experienced by their twinner. If someone dies then so does their twinner (with some exceptions like Jack and his friend due to better medical treatment in one world.)

In the DT books though, the twins seem to follow the quantum theory idea of multiple universes, (not that it's exactly the same, King not being an expert in that field) i.e. twinners take different routes, the death of one doesn't affect another etc. In fact if one person dies in one world, strongly suggest that there will be another version alive in another world due to the nature of different routes from different circumstances.

I'm also of the opinion the two Toren brothers are twinners of Eddie and Jake rather than actually them, but on some level they are still the same, as with all twinners. I also loved that ending, and I didn't see it as Susannah opting for second best. The though occurred, but emotionally I still found it satisfying. As the world move on, people have to move on with their lives. When partners die, sooner or later people may find other partners. In Suze's case they were both different and the same at once, and no bad thing in this case. Beside, her dreams and feeling up until then strongly suggest she was meant to be there. And that makes it ok too.

Duplicate Rolands and Flaggs:
I'm of the opinion there is only one Roland. Roland and King are twins of a sort in the sense that there are similarities between father and son but that's a different thing to twinners.

As for Flagg, I thought the idea of flipping twinners causing Flagg's shape-shifting was interesting, but I disagree. When a person flips into their twinner they look like their twinner. So if there was say a Flagg in America and a Walter in Mid-World, and Flagg flipped into Walter, surely Walter would still look the same regardless or whether he was possessed or not. It could be argued as a sorceror, the being with veto might be able to bring his form forward, but I don't think that's the case here.

In my opinion, Walter ability to change has nothing to do with twinners or flipping. He is using glamour. I agree with CK that think that his transformation might be more than just physical, that his mind becomes too, but thats a whole other thing. (I'm not even certain he actually physically changes, but more alters people perception of him... that's another thing.)

I do think Flagg might have twinners in other worlds though, but I don't think that plays a role in his shape-shifting. The date in which the superflu happened is different in the super-flu world visited by the ka-tet in Wizard and Glass to the dates in both versions of the Stand. This suggest they're different worlds (although there are other explanations), and if thats the case the 2 Flaggs are different as it seems unlikely one guys would do the exact same antics in both. Also Flagg's history seems somewhat different in the Stand to Walter of All-world... although amnesia could be cause if they were the same.

1.) I thought this was a Borderland between In-World and Mid-World myself.

2.) This sounds pretty cool. Originally I felt the Territories were either a different version of All-World where the Tower manifested itself as the Black Hotel. However, it is possible that the Hotel was located at a farther region of All-World, in terms of geography, due to the presence of the large fish in the waters near the Hotel which many think to be the Fish Guardian. So the Hotel would be this Guardian's portal.

3.) Yeah, I think Jack and the Thunder Five entered the Discordia Badlands, albeit a different area than where Roland passed through.

4.) I think Flagg being in every world could be attributed to him allegedly being Legion. He's many, and his "many" are scattered throughout the world either on the King's business or looking to get their jollies.

[Darkthoughts]

Bumping this awesome thread!

[Merlin1958]

Bumping this awesome thread!

Trash-Can Man: Bump de Bump!!!!

[Darkthoughts]

:lol:

I do think that King changed his mind about the rules of twinners somewhere between The Talisman and ubsequent DT books though. If you think about it there's no really truly singular people in Talisman, because Jack did have a twinner to begin with, which then implies that only people with twinners can flip.

[Merlin1958]

:lol:

I do think that King changed his mind about the rules of twinners somewhere between The Talisman and ubsequent DT books though. If you think about it there's no really truly singular people in Talisman, because Jack did have a twinner to begin with, which then implies that only people with twinners can flip.

Wasn't the fact that Jack was "Singular in nature" (I believe that was the quote) what made him so special? I recall this point being made several times in the book.

As far as King changing his mind, well he certainly did quite a bit of that during the series or at least appeared to. When Parkus and jack have their palaver at the end of Black House, Parkus specifically mentions they must leave before dark in order to avoid the Little Sister's. My understanding is that Roland encountered the Sister's prior to the events of the gunslinger yet, they could see the Big Combine, which was supposedly located in End World. Just Where the F*ck were they exactly? It would seem to indicate a geographical designation rather than a "meta physical" one. Also why did Roland never see the remains of the Big Combine on his way to the Tower?

I probably should go back and read the books, including BH over again, but I swear the answers ain't in there!! LOL

[mystima]

someone mentioned earlier that there were infinite worlds with duplicates (twinners) of other people like lets say for example other Jakes and Eddies. Their lives would be similar but not the same and sometimes they would do things similar and that would say explain this little phenomenon called Deja vu

[Darkthoughts]

Wasn't the fact that Jack was "Singular in nature" (I believe that was the quote) what made him so special? I recall this point being made several times in the book.
Yes, it was made quite often - but I always thought it was a bit of a cheat in a way as Jack hadn't been born singular, he'd had a twinner who died. The only truly singular person we appear to have met is Roland and possibly Pere Callahan, who travelled the Highways In Hiding, but always as himself.

Good point about the location of the Sisters. It's been bought up before and I'm sure Robin Furth has tried to tackle it in the Concordance (not to hand at the moment, so I can't check) I keep meaning to try and put together a map, but it gets so complicated. The usual explanation is that "the world moved on" but it seems like a bit of a cop out somehow!

[pathoftheturtle]

... My understanding is that Roland encountered the Sister's prior to the events of the gunslinger yet, they could see the Big Combine, which was supposedly located in End World. Just Where the F*ck were they exactly? It would seem to indicate a geographical designation rather than a "meta physical" one. Also why did Roland never see the remains of the Big Combine on his way to the Tower?

I probably should go back and read the books, including BH over again, but I swear the answers ain't in there!! LOLSusannah saw it during her palaver with Mia. And I'm pretty sure that the Sisters simply moved their tent.



Wasn't the fact that Jack was "Singular in nature" (I believe that was the quote) what made him so special? I recall this point being made several times in the book.
Yes, it was made quite often - but I always thought it was a bit of a cheat in a way as Jack hadn't been born singular, he'd had a twinner who died. The only truly singular person we appear to have met is Roland and possibly Pere Callahan, who travelled the Highways In Hiding, but always as himself.How can you say that Roland is singular? I still don't understand whether alternate versions of him are being split off or woven together, but whether they are appearing or disappearing as he quests, I think it's clear that they have existence on some level.
Further, I don't understand your objection regarding Jack. If every timeline but one were such that he was never born, rather than all other timelines leading to his eventual death, in what way would that be different?

[Darkthoughts]

I'll have to find you some quotes on my reread, but it's stated that Roland is singular a few times. What makes you think that there are more Rolands? Personally I think it would make the whole quest and his redemption very trivial if there were many of him.

My point about the Jack thing was purely semantics, he's not singular by nature because he had a twinner. What you're saying there really only solidifies my point rather than contests it, because you acknowledge he wasn't singular either.

[pathoftheturtle]

...What makes you think that there are more Rolands? Personally I think it would make the whole quest and his redemption very trivial if there were many of him.Because then it would be like he'd have to keep doing it all over and over again? That's just what I've been saying: the ending is ambiguous in exactly that way, and I think that the whole subject involves deep existential matters. As soon as they learn that many different Earths exist, it raises the question of whether everything is random or what purpose their existence serves. In fact, your argument is much like a pretty old issue in philosophy -- if God controls the entire universe, some feel that it means their lives would meaningless since it implies that we have no free will, yet if we do have free will, some feel that THAT would make their lives meaningless since we cannot control the universe. It appears to me that Roland's quest spreads chaos, Gan creating one reality after another to no end, and if that's the case then any personal benefit the man may accrue is trivial indeed. Unless we little people can also be redeemed or his quest is some kind of metaphor for what we have to go through, then the story is vicious. The question which really needs to be answered, IMHO, is what it is exactly that the Dark Tower literally does for the fate of the world.


My point about the Jack thing was purely semantics, he's not singular by nature because he had a twinner. What you're saying there really only solidifies my point rather than contests it, because you acknowledge he wasn't singular either.Well, I do agree with some of what you have said, but I'm not actually sure that I wish to reject that definition of being singular. I'm trying to understand what you mean to contrast against it. For my own part, I do not honestly believe that any of the TDT characters are a bit more "really, truly singular" than Jack is (with the possible exception of supernatural beings like the Tower itself) and I can't seem to comprehend precisely how it could even be possible for a human to be naturally singular in a cosmology which features natural multiplicity of humanity in general. Perhaps that would be logical if he were by definition not human, never having been born at all. Doesn't being naturally singular imply existing independent of the regular environment since time began? But maybe alternate worlds were not originally natural, anyway, and the force which must have intervened to make Jack special did so as part of a plan to ultimately restore everything else. ... But in that case, then it should already be as though none of these worlds ever happened. Hm. You know, these paradoxes of twins, twinners, and reincarnation are really quite central to all of the craziness of the series.


I'll have to find you some quotes on my reread, but it's stated that Roland is singular a few times. ...I think you're mistaken about that. What I do recall are some quotes suggesting that Stephen King may be singular (or that perhaps twinners of Keystone Stephen King exist without "really" existing or something equally unintelligible) so we might have to conclude that this one Roland is also singular simply by virtue of having interacted with that real world. But it still does not follow that these concepts fit together and/or make any kind of sense.

[costanza]

I forget which book it was in and the exact quote but it's something about Steven Deschain refers to Roland as the one that lived. So Roland had a twin brother at one time who died early or at birth or something. I wanted to think that was Jack's twin at one time but it was too far of a stretch.

I do believe there are more things that Roland has to learn before he can finally rest beyond just having the Horn of Eld. For instance, in The Gunslinger, Walter says during their palaver that no one wants to invest Roland with the power of anything, it is simply in him, referring to the power to draw the three. How many other powers does Roland have that he doesn't yet know about? Marten taught him the hypnotizing/back of the knuckles bullet trick, does Roland know more magical thing that he's possibly forgotten?

[Merlin1958]

...What makes you think that there are more Rolands? Personally I think it would make the whole quest and his redemption very trivial if there were many of him.Because then it would be like he'd have to keep doing it all over and over again? That's just what I've been saying: the ending is ambiguous in exactly that way, and I think that the whole subject involves deep existential matters. As soon as they learn that many different Earths exist, it raises the question of whether everything is random or what purpose their existence serves. In fact, your argument is much like a pretty old issue in philosophy -- if God controls the entire universe, some feel that it means their lives would meaningless since it implies that we have no free will, yet if we do have free will, some feel that THAT would make their lives meaningless since we cannot control the universe. It appears to me that Roland's quest spreads chaos, Gan creating one reality after another to no end, and if that's the case then any personal benefit the man may accrue is trivial indeed. Unless we little people can also be redeemed or his quest is some kind of metaphor for what we have to go through, then the story is vicious. The question which really needs to be answered, IMHO, is what it is exactly that the Dark Tower literally does for the fate of the world.


My point about the Jack thing was purely semantics, he's not singular by nature because he had a twinner. What you're saying there really only solidifies my point rather than contests it, because you acknowledge he wasn't singular either.Well, I do agree with some of what you have said, but I'm not actually sure that I wish to reject that definition of being singular. I'm trying to understand what you mean to contrast against it. For my own part, I do not honestly believe that any of the TDT characters are a bit more "really, truly singular" than Jack is (with the possible exception of supernatural beings like the Tower itself) and I can't seem to comprehend precisely how it could even be possible for a human to be naturally singular in a cosmology which features natural multiplicity of humanity in general. Perhaps that would be logical if he were by definition not human, never having been born at all. Doesn't being naturally singular imply existing independent of the regular environment since time began? But maybe alternate worlds were not originally natural, anyway, and the force which must have intervened to make Jack special did so as part of a plan to ultimately restore everything else. ... But in that case, then it should already be as though none of these worlds ever happened. Hm. You know, these paradoxes of twins, twinners, and reincarnation are really quite central to all of the craziness of the series.


I'll have to find you some quotes on my reread, but it's stated that Roland is singular a few times. ...I think you're mistaken about that. What I do recall are some quotes suggesting that Stephen King may be singular (or that perhaps twinners of Keystone Stephen King exist without "really" existing or something equally unintelligible) so we might have to conclude that this one Roland is also singular simply by virtue of having interacted with that real world. But it still does not follow that these concepts fit together and/or make any kind of sense.

Path, I thoroughly enjoy you're in-depth analysis and Philosophical exercises (and I mean absolutely no offense by those terms), but I believe you may be over-thinking the deep thinking offered to us by the author. Did he mean for us to come to terms with our own reasoning of the proverbial "Why"? Yes definitely. Did he deliberately write it to make it an exercise for the Philosophy staff at major colleges? I don't think so. And again, I am not being condescending in the least.

First off, there are a fair amount of "holes" in his overall story. TT as applied to the DT being one. Personally, I favor the "Roland as a Metaphor for Mankind" theory and that would seem to mean he is very singular in nature. Hence the "Loop". If there were multiple "Roland's" throughout the Multi-verse than why make this one repeat it when all possible choices could be explored through different universes? I think that Roland is the embodiment of all versions of "man" throughout the Multi-verse and ultimately determines whether Mankind is evolving toward a "Purpose" filled existence with the potential to become enlightened or, one filled with "chaos" and eventual demise.

Phew!!! LOL

[Darkthoughts]

...What makes you think that there are more Rolands? Personally I think it would make the whole quest and his redemption very trivial if there were many of him.Because then it would be like he'd have to keep doing it all over and over again? That's just what I've been saying: the ending is ambiguous in exactly that way, and I think that the whole subject involves deep existential matters.
I don't disagree that the DT series is full of existential subject matter, it's what makes it such an amazing story. But, and allowing as you say that there are ambiguities with the ending, to me if each loop were being performed by a different Roland then the theme of redemption is obsolete, because all subsequent Rolands have performed the quest, failed, ended their loop and therefore do not have a chance for redemption. The fact that he was holding the horn was one of the most salient points, it showed that he had made progress on this loop. Plus, why the horror when he has the momentary realisation that he has performed the quest over and over if it was a different Roland each time? Twinners do not share a collective conciousness.


I can't seem to comprehend precisely how it could even be possible for a human to be naturally singular in a cosmology which features natural multiplicity of humanity in general. Perhaps that would be logical if he were by definition not human, never having been born at all. Doesn't being naturally singular imply existing independent of the regular environment since time began?
No, nothing that complicated, we're only talking of what it is to be a twinner or a singular person. King, as the creator of the concept, has said that some people are special because they are singular. meaning they have no other counterpart/twinner self and that therefore, when they flip, they flip physically as their whole entire self because they do not have a twinner body to flip into.


I forget which book it was in and the exact quote but it's something about Steven Deschain refers to Roland as the one that lived. So Roland had a twin brother at one time who died early or at birth or something.
But that would just be a regular twin, not a twinner (ie another you in another universe/level of the Tower).

[costanza]

That's true but the regular twin would also have been of the line of Eld and able to enter the Tower like Roland and the Crimson King.

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, true but Roland would still be a singular person as opposed to Twinners (as first defined in The Talisman) ;)

[pathoftheturtle]

...What makes you think that there are more Rolands? Personally I think it would make the whole quest and his redemption very trivial if there were many of him.Because then it would be like he'd have to keep doing it all over and over again? That's just what I've been saying: the ending is ambiguous in exactly that way, and I think that the whole subject involves deep existential matters. As soon as they learn that many different Earths exist, it raises the question of whether everything is random or what purpose their existence serves. In fact, your argument is much like a pretty old issue in philosophy -- if God controls the entire universe, some feel that it means their lives would meaningless since it implies that we have no free will, yet if we do have free will, some feel that THAT would make their lives meaningless since we cannot control the universe. It appears to me that Roland's quest spreads chaos, Gan creating one reality after another to no end, and if that's the case then any personal benefit the man may accrue is trivial indeed. Unless we little people can also be redeemed or his quest is some kind of metaphor for what we have to go through, then the story is vicious. The question which really needs to be answered, IMHO, is what it is exactly that the Dark Tower literally does for the fate of the world.


My point about the Jack thing was purely semantics, he's not singular by nature because he had a twinner. What you're saying there really only solidifies my point rather than contests it, because you acknowledge he wasn't singular either.Well, I do agree with some of what you have said, but I'm not actually sure that I wish to reject that definition of being singular. I'm trying to understand what you mean to contrast against it. For my own part, I do not honestly believe that any of the TDT characters are a bit more "really, truly singular" than Jack is (with the possible exception of supernatural beings like the Tower itself) and I can't seem to comprehend precisely how it could even be possible for a human to be naturally singular in a cosmology which features natural multiplicity of humanity in general. Perhaps that would be logical if he were by definition not human, never having been born at all. Doesn't being naturally singular imply existing independent of the regular environment since time began? But maybe alternate worlds were not originally natural, anyway, and the force which must have intervened to make Jack special did so as part of a plan to ultimately restore everything else. ... But in that case, then it should already be as though none of these worlds ever happened. Hm. You know, these paradoxes of twins, twinners, and reincarnation are really quite central to all of the craziness of the series.


I'll have to find you some quotes on my reread, but it's stated that Roland is singular a few times. ...I think you're mistaken about that. What I do recall are some quotes suggesting that Stephen King may be singular (or that perhaps twinners of Keystone Stephen King exist without "really" existing or something equally unintelligible) so we might have to conclude that this one Roland is also singular simply by virtue of having interacted with that real world. But it still does not follow that these concepts fit together and/or make any kind of sense.

Path, I thoroughly enjoy you're in-depth analysis and Philosophical exercises (and I mean absolutely no offense by those terms), but I believe you may be over-thinking the deep thinking offered to us by the author. Did he mean for us to come to terms with our own reasoning of the proverbial "Why"? Yes definitely. Did he deliberately write it to make it an exercise for the Philosophy staff at major colleges? I don't think so. And again, I am not being condescending in the least.

First off, there are a fair amount of "holes" in his overall story. TT as applied to the DT being one. Personally, I favor the "Roland as a Metaphor for Mankind" theory and that would seem to mean he is very singular in nature. Hence the "Loop". If there were multiple "Roland's" throughout the Multi-verse than why make this one repeat it when all possible choices could be explored through different universes? I think that Roland is the embodiment of all versions of "man" throughout the Multi-verse and ultimately determines whether Mankind is evolving toward a "Purpose" filled existence with the potential to become enlightened or, one filled with "chaos" and eventual demise.

Phew!!! LOLI just don't understand why the same people who insist that Roland having counterparts would render his adventures meaningless are not bothered by the idea that they themselves have counterparts. You don't have to go to college to notice that discrepancy.

If the mere fact that TDT features parallel universes is not enough to convince you that SK was trying to get deep about it, just look at the palaver with TMIB in The Gunslinger! He asks point blank questions like "Does God see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a hydrogen atom? And if so, what must the nature of such a God be?" (At least, that's how I remember it off the top of my head.)


... Marten taught him the hypnotizing/back of the knuckles bullet trick, does Roland know more magical thing that he's possibly forgotten?Not sure how you define "magical," but let's remember that hypnosis is real.




...What makes you think that there are more Rolands? Personally I think it would make the whole quest and his redemption very trivial if there were many of him.Because then it would be like he'd have to keep doing it all over and over again? That's just what I've been saying: the ending is ambiguous in exactly that way, and I think that the whole subject involves deep existential matters.
I don't disagree that the DT series is full of existential subject matter, it's what makes it such an amazing story. But, and allowing as you say that there are ambiguities with the ending, to me if each loop were being performed by a different Roland then the theme of redemption is obsolete, because all subsequent Rolands have performed the quest, failed, ended their loop and therefore do not have a chance for redemption. The fact that he was holding the horn was one of the most salient points, it showed that he had made progress on this loop. Plus, why the horror when he has the momentary realisation that he has performed the quest over and over if it was a different Roland each time? Twinners do not share a collective conciousness.Sure, his condition is unique in some ways, but he, too, is not conscious of it most of the time. I think that there is more than one of him only in a certain manner of speaking, and the point I'm trying to make is that he IS mostly like other people: that those who we say are not singular can be said to be not singular only in that same manner of speaking. When Roland goes back in time, the rest of the universe that he's been in goes on without him, right? So, he is either merging with pre-existing Rolands in other universes, or else a whole new universe is created around him each time. Either way, I'm not convinced that these different timelimes are completely unlike the different timelines shown earlier. It's entirely possible that all twinners are connected in essence and subconsciously. There are many doors between worlds, after all, and one of them is death. You're pointing out the dramatic necessity for continuity between Roland's alternates, but does it not matter for others to have that as well? This is one of my major objections to multiverse theory in quantum physics: if this really exists in nature, why should we not share consciousness with these other aspects of ourselves? What would have caused us to evolve such a profound misperception of our environment?



I can't seem to comprehend precisely how it could even be possible for a human to be naturally singular in a cosmology which features natural multiplicity of humanity in general. Perhaps that would be logical if he were by definition not human, never having been born at all. Doesn't being naturally singular imply existing independent of the regular environment since time began?
No, nothing that complicated, we're only talking of what it is to be a twinner or a singular person. King, as the creator of the concept, has said that some people are special because they are singular. meaning they have no other counterpart/twinner self and that therefore, when they flip, they flip physically as their whole entire self because they do not have a twinner body to flip into. Well, you may be right that he changed his mind about that, but I still don't see how anyone can be born singular unless everyone is. Personally, I believe that the topic of what it is to be a twinner and how that's all supposed to work really is pretty complicated, naturally, but I apologize if some of this doesn't fit this thread.

[Darkthoughts]

When Roland goes back in time, the rest of the universe that he's been in goes on without him, right? So, he is either merging with pre-existing Rolands in other universes, or else a whole new universe is created around him each time.
Seriously Path, I love the way you think! If I say that I think you've over thought something, I often find when I go back and read your posts again that your basic premise is actually quite simple, but that you write in a stream of consciousness type way that needs more thought from the reader than being able to take it at first glance.

That being said, I disagree with you anyway :lol: I think that in Roland's particular case, specifically whilst he is on the quest from the Desert up to the Tower, he is trapped in a loop, obviously, but to enable that loop Gan has had to stick Roland in a separate little bubble of time that's tacked on to the ordinary timeline in much the same way that the CK's balcony is tacked on to the Tower. So, within that bubble Roland is really outside of the constraints of time and can travel freely backwards and forwards to no personal effect. That's the way I've always thought of it.

In time travel in general though, I always supposed that if you went back in time the place in the present that you came from would move forward in time as normal while you were gone. People in books and movies generally only get back to the precise moment they left if they have a time machine that can be set to travel back to that moment.


It's entirely possible that all twinners are connected in essence and subconsciously.
Yes, that would make sense to me. It could explain all sorts of things like de ja vu and certain types of dreams.


I still don't see how anyone can be born singular unless everyone is. Personally, I believe that the topic of what it is to be a twinner and how that's all supposed to work really is pretty complicated, naturally, but I apologize if some of this doesn't fit this thread.
Ha, because to me it makes perfect sense - if there are an infinite number of possible universes, then the possibility that people on some of them are singular exists. Back to Roland in particular, it is stated that he is the last remaining human (the CK being excluded from that) of the line of Eld. Seeing as people like Parkus (and indeed Gan itself) have knowledge of other whens and wheres, it seems a pretty concrete statement.

[pathoftheturtle]

Seriously Path, I love the way you think!Gee, thx. :blush:


In time travel in general though, I always supposed that if you went back in time the place in the present that you came from would move forward in time as normal while you were gone.Well, in time travel, there is no "while" about you being gone. You're beyond time; all linear concepts are suspended. If time continues the same relative to yourself then you have not really time traveled. So if we go there, we'll need to sort out the fundamental paradox of changing the past -- as I said, if Gan really is going to change the past in a way that undoes alternate worlds so that just one possibility exists, then it should already be just as though that had always been. Without parallel timestreams, general time travel requires that the past changes before being changed: that's the very definition of the past. Regardless...

... Roland is really outside of the constraints of time and can travel freely backwards and forwards to no personal effect. That's the way I've always thought of it. It's not about the constraints of time so much as the nature of parallel universes. If Roland meets his ka-tet more than once, then there has to be more than one of each of them or else they would remember him. And that's just how you define twinners, isn't it? And if Roland does not remember meeting them before, if he lives multiple versions of his lifetime then, again, that is functionally identical to having twinners.


... if there are an infinite number of possible universes, then the possibility that people on some of them are singular exists. ...Well, it's easy to say that that possibility exists, so long as you don't need to describe at all the mechanics that could make it possible. You're just creating idle paradoxes now. I might as well counter that if anything is possible then the possibility that nothing is possible must also be allowed. "The possibility that there are monsters that like to eat all of the universes where singular people can be born, monsters who are born on another universe with the power to travel over and do so also exists! Nah!"

And to clarify, when I said that the ending is ambiguous, I mean that it's my opinion that the author's whole point in showing Roland still trapped in that cycle is to counter the theme of redemption. I think that we were supposed to feel some doubt about it, and realize that we have to take it on faith.

[costanza]

Apologies for being off topic this whole time. I live in vegas and there are at least two shows involving hypnotists plus the fact that it doesn't work on everyone puts me in the it's not real camp. Plus, Roland learned it from a Wizard.

[Darkthoughts]

It's not about the constraints of time so much as the nature of parallel universes. If Roland meets his ka-tet more than once, then there has to be more than one of each of them or else they would remember him. And that's just how you define twinners, isn't it? And if Roland does not remember meeting them before, if he lives multiple versions of his lifetime then, again, that is functionally identical to having twinners.
I see where you're coming from, but I think Roland's situation is very unique in that his loop is being played out over and over again in a separate capsule of time (as i said in my other post about his loop being stuck just outside of time), he gets to the end of the loop and (unless he redeems himself) it just resets and starts over, so there's no conundrum in why no-one remembers each other because it's just playing over and over. I do think that Roland has the ability to act differently each time and that his subsequent actions can have a knock on effect of letting the other players in the loop act accordingly - but he won't be back in the real timestream until he is freed from the loop.


Well, it's easy to say that that possibility exists, so long as you don't need to describe at all the mechanics that could make it possible. You're just creating idle paradoxes now. I might as well counter that if anything is possible then the possibility that nothing is possible must also be allowed. "The possibility that there are monsters that like to eat all of the universes where singular people can be born, monsters who are born on another universe with the power to travel over and do so also exists! Nah!"
:lol: We are talking about a fictional universe you know, of course these possibilities can exist within it!

[pathoftheturtle]

It's not about the constraints of time so much as the nature of parallel universes. If Roland meets his ka-tet more than once, then there has to be more than one of each of them or else they would remember him. And that's just how you define twinners, isn't it? And if Roland does not remember meeting them before, if he lives multiple versions of his lifetime then, again, that is functionally identical to having twinners.
I see where you're coming from, but I think Roland's situation is very unique in that his loop is being played out over and over again in a separate capsule of time (as i said in my other post about his loop being stuck just outside of time), he gets to the end of the loop and (unless he redeems himself) it just resets and starts over, so there's no conundrum in why no-one remembers each other because it's just playing over and over. I do think that Roland has the ability to act differently each time and that his subsequent actions can have a knock on effect of letting the other players in the loop act accordingly - but he won't be back in the real timestream until he is freed from the loop.So he's not interacting with real people but with amazing simulations? Then how do any of us know that the people we think we know are not all simulations as well? It sounds pretty contrived to me, but it still seems that in a way, it boils down to match my assertion that Roland is singular only in a certain manner of speaking. And whether we use my interpretation of that or yours, it doesn't really contradict the point about Jack, does it? Roland wasn't born in his unique situation. It involved ka and history, like everything does.

Well, it's easy to say that that possibility exists, so long as you don't need to describe at all the mechanics that could make it possible. You're just creating idle paradoxes now. I might as well counter that if anything is possible then the possibility that nothing is possible must also be allowed. "The possibility that there are monsters that like to eat all of the universes where singular people can be born, monsters who are born on another universe with the power to travel over and do so also exists! Nah!"
:lol: We are talking about a fictional universe you know, of course these possibilities can exist within it!Not all fiction is pure fantasy, but you are right, of course. Still feels as though you've missed my point. You can only go so far in discussion of the inconceivable. I can imagine worlds with different laws of physics. But worlds with different laws of logic? They may exist, but I can't even imagine what I could say about them.

Apologies for being off topic this whole time. I live in vegas and there are at least two shows involving hypnotists plus the fact that it doesn't work on everyone puts me in the it's not real camp. Plus, Roland learned it from a Wizard.Ehn, no offense meant. Maybe we're just not defining it the same way. Like, a couple of guys could get into an long argument about whether or not wrestling is fake and not catch on that each of them was thinking about a different thing. There is a well known industry of entertainment wrestling which definitely is staged... but still, real wrestling does exist. Anyway, hypnosis IRL may indeed be a bit of a tangent here.

If we need to get further into the general subject of special powers, I doubt that the bullet trick makes a good proof that Roland has them, but this one isn't bad --
Walter says during their palaver that no one wants to invest Roland with the power of anything, it is simply in him, referring to the power to draw the three. How many other powers does Roland have that he doesn't yet know about?I think there may be a better interpretation for Walter's comments, but your idea that opening the doors is a power which Roland was born with is an arguable interpretation. Maybe even correct -- I'm uncertain about the question and have been uncertain enough to start this thread Doors Between Worlds (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?9960-Doors-Between-Worlds&p=637016#top) and I think that would be a great contribution.

Also, I don't think we have a thread about which feats performed by Walter/Marten/Flagg are inborn and which aren't. I do believe that he depends on Black 13 occasionally, for example. It would be very interesting to discuss whether any tricks of his are ones that anyone could learn do.

So, yes, a little re-organizing may be called for, but you have no need to apologize as far as I'm concerned. We've all been confused. I think. If I write in such a way that I'm not clear at first glance, it's not because I like to challenge readers: it's because from my point of view, it is their ideas are that sound far out at first.

I do agree that there ARE some powers with which some people are born that others are not, both in reality and in SK's fiction. Obviously that is true of the Breakers and most psychics from his older books. I just don't see being singular as belonging to that that same class because it sounds like a circle of cause and effect to me. This is not an active ability: it's a state or condition. So what's the ultimate sense of a claim that being able to be born with a condition is a condition that one can be born with?

[mystima]

[/QUOTE]So he's not interacting with real people but with amazing simulations? Then how do any of us know that the people we think we know are not all simulations as well? It sounds pretty contrived to me, but it still seems that in a way, it boils down to match my assertion that Roland is singular only in a certain manner of speaking. And whether we use my interpretation of that or yours, it doesn't really contradict the point about Jack, does it? Roland wasn't born in his unique situation. It involved ka and history, like everything does.[/QUOTE]

If it is just simulations does that mean he is some type of "Matrix" of Gan's own making

[Darkthoughts]

So he's not interacting with real people but with amazing simulations? Then how do any of us know that the people we think we know are not all simulations as well?

If it is just simulations does that mean he is some type of "Matrix" of Gan's own making

No, not simulations exactly, possibly living memories - my concept of it is that Gan has taken the period of time in which Roland's quest/loop occurs and has snipped it from the normal timestream, a bit like an editor snipping out a bit of footage. He then loops this bit of footage, but unlike a movie the events are subject to change depending what Roland decides to do each time the loop is played. Obviously Roland's choices could affect how the other people in the loop act. I don't imagine anyone else but Roland gets to a point where they have a realisation of being stuck in a loop because towards the end of it they all "move on" Roland is the only one to enter the Tower after all. I imagine all the other players from the loop are in the normal timestream living their lives, but Roland has been physically removed and doomed to play out the loop until he gets it "right".

The only other scenario I can conceive of is Path's idea of multiple Rolands, but that doesn't seem right to me because it's stated by characters who travel the different whens and wheres that Roland is the last of his line.


Not all fiction is pure fantasy, but you are right, of course. Still feels as though you've missed my point. You can only go so far in discussion of the inconceivable.
No, not all fiction is pure fantasy I agree, but you always equate fantastic concepts to reality which to me seems like you're missing the point. Not everything has to have a concrete explanation in fiction, for instance when you say: " So he's not interacting with real people but with amazing simulations? Then how do any of us know that the people we think we know are not all simulations as well?" you're leaping from a fictional concept in a world where a man leaps into different dimensions and fights monsters with guns made from the mythical sword Excalibur to our real world and trying to make comparisons based on logic. Saying "Sorry, if it's not applicable to our reality or can be explained by existing concepts then it must be false!" doesn't work because that's the whole point of fiction, you either take a basic real concept and go wild with it, or you make stuff up entirely.

[pathoftheturtle]

No, that's not what I'm saying. In my own mind, I was definitely distinguishing between us as we know ourselves and us as our counterparts within the supposed TDT cosmology when I was asking "How do any of us know...?" Sorry I didn't get it onto the page. The operant word was supposed to be "How?" I'm interested in exploring the logic underlying the stories, and I appreciate it that you are here sharing your theories. All fiction is "false," naturally, but I don't know if the whole point of it is as you say. It doesn't have to be consistent to established real-world concepts or even previously existing principles of other fiction, but I do feel that it should at least be consistent to its own premises. This doesn't make it any more true, but it makes it does make it more good in my opinion. Wildly illogical fiction is often just bad fiction. Not always; that can be poetic, though some authors manage to be poetic and prosaically reasonable. All of which is another topic.

I am going to have to crack open my copy of Black House now. I think you're kind of reaching in how you are defining Roland as last of the line of Eld, but I suppose that I should take a little time to process at this point. Anyway, thanks again for these discussions.