Cort VS. Vannay

[Letti]

Who would you like to have as a teacher?
The one who can teach you how to die.
Or the one who can teach you how to live.

[Ikilledthecrimsonking]

cort kicks major ass end of story

[Matt]

I voted Cort because not every man knows how to die well.

[Letti]

And if you don't live well can you still die well?

[fernandito]

I think it all depends on what you're after. I think a Gunslinger would say Cort because he's not expected to be a philosopher or try and explain the mysteries of the universe, only to survive and kill quickly and efficiently.

[Wuducynn]

For me it would be neither.

[fernandito]

I bet :)

[Matt]

And if you don't live well can you still die well?

I just think learning to die well is harder than learning to live well.

But I have always had a nack for being really happy. :lol:

[RolandDerRevolvermann]

Cort reminds me of my english teacher.... and look! It worked!! :)
So I vote for Cort...

[Letti]

"Every man dies but not every man really lives."

In my small universe in my mind people who live well will die well. Death is not something unique. It happens. Just the end of a short journey. Without drums. In silence.

You can't die well without living well - or that's how I see. :)

[Matt]

I totally agree, and I love the Braveheart quote. :wub:

I just already know how to live well so from that perspective, it would be okay to be trained on the other end. :lol:

[MonteGss]

Cort is a real man. :lol:
I chose him because I'd want to be a hard-ass gunslinger. Vannay was cool too but I've already got brains and I know how to read so I can learn more myself. :D

[Storyslinger]

Cort, he's the man, or was

[Daghain]

I voted for Cort. I like anyone who can fight. :D

[Wuducynn]

If I can't vote for Los' I'm not voting! Now theres a teacher!

[Darkthoughts]

You're all mental! You want to be bashed on the head with a stick and be referred to as "maggot" all day long?! :lol:

I voted for Vannay because I find that sort of discourse more stimulating...plus I would totally get my ass whupped on a regular basis by Cort, as I have no discipline :P

[Letti]

We really are sisters in our souls, Lisa. :wub:

[Darkthoughts]

I know! :D :huglove:

[Letti]

When I start to think that I am the only who... you appear. :rose:

[Jean]

I can't vote here. The answer completely depends on the subject I'm taught. If it's academic, it's Vannay; if it's skills, it's Cort. (and, dear ladies, if you have no discipline at all, you won't be eligible for gunslinging anyway - it's after all military kind of occupation - so Cort wouldn't be your teacher in any case)

[Darkthoughts]

Sadly true - Roland would despair of me I'm afraid :D

[Daghain]

if it's skills, it's Cort. (and, dear ladies, if you have no discipline at all, you won't be eligible for gunslinging anyway - it's after all military kind of occupation - so Cort wouldn't be your teacher in any case)

Aaah, but Susannah eventually became a gunslinger. And yes, I realize Cort was not her teacher. But still. I would like to think the civilization of Gilead would come around. :lol:

And, speaking from personal experience, I have seen women whip the shit out of men. So gender means nothing.

I'd pay good money to take a shot at Cort. He'd probably still clean my clock, but it would be worth a try. :rofl:

[Jean]

if it's skills, it's Cort. (and, dear ladies, if you have no discipline at all, you won't be eligible for gunslinging anyway - it's after all military kind of occupation - so Cort wouldn't be your teacher in any case)

Aaah, but Susannah eventually became a gunslinger. And yes, I realize Cort was not her teacher. But still. I would like to think the civilization of Gilead would come around. :lol:

And, speaking from personal experience, I have seen women whip the shit out of men. So gender means nothing.

I didn't refer to gender at all. Susannah was a gunslinger; my wife would make a great one, too. My main point was discipline: it's something that Susannah had to learn. It has nothing to do with refusal to think for oneself (as many people seem to believe), but it's understanding that military occupation has its pecularities. Back to gender, though: at the times when Cort was teaching, female gunslingers were something inconceivable... so, here again, he would have never taught you...

[Darkthoughts]

"Clean my clock" what an excellent expression! :lol:


My main point was discipline: it's something that Susannah had to learn. It has nothing to do with refusal to think for oneself (as many people seem to believe), but it's understanding that military occupation has its pecularities
Thats not really how I think of discipline, although I think "refusal to think for oneself" is often party to a lack of discipline.

Personally, I have no problem with being responsible for and thinking for myself - when I said I lacked discipline I meant I'm terrible at things like time keeping, being orderly...the sort of stuff I consider boring :P (Which makes it sound like I'm contradicting myself when I say I'm responsible for myself - but I always take responsibility for my short comings aswell as my strong points.)

Although, like Eddie, I'm sure Roland would find the right angle from which to bring out my inner gunslinger/disciplinarian :D

[Daghain]

Back to gender, though: at the times when Cort was teaching, female gunslingers were something inconceivable... so, here again, he would have never taught you...

True, but since that was not a requirement of the original question, I still stand by my answer. :lol:

And, isn't one of the main points of the military to follow orders? I know you should never blindly follow orders, but I would think (and correct me if I'm wrong, I've never been in the military) that too many people questioning authority in the foxhole would be a bad thing. :lol:

[Letti]

Lisa, we can start our lessons anytime - nobody is in our row. ;)

[Ruthful]

You're all mental! You want to be bashed on the head with a stick and be referred to as "maggot" all day long?! :lol:

I voted for Vannay because I find that sort of discourse more stimulating...plus I would totally get my ass whupped on a regular basis by Cort, as I have no discipline :P

LOL.

I used the same logic when I voted for Vannay.

There would have been about a five second interval between the time I entered his class and the moment he beat me upside the head with his walking stick.

Then again, I remember a very Cort-like algebra teacher I had in high school, and I didn't pass this subject until I took her course, where I got a 95. So there's something to be said for disciplined learning.

I love this thread, Letti. Such a great question!

:couple:

My take on it is that Roland and his ka-tet needed both teachers in order to face up to the challenge of defending the white in a decaying world, but that Cort's tutelage was more necessary in fulfilling their ultimate quest.

People forget that he didn't just teach cunning or ruthlessness to his pupils, but imparted a wisdom about the world, and about themselves, which was absolutely essential to their lives. I see him as a counterpart to Roland Deschain's father, and I don't think they would have been able to initially entrap Farson's men, or even return to Gilead, without Cort's direction.

I guess I'm a bit biased in this respect since Cort is my favorite character in this saga, bar none-although Vannay is also a wonderful creation-and I see him as unique in the sense that he demonstrates that you don't necessarily need to be lovable-or even worthy of emulation in some respects-in order to be one of the good guys. Sometimes it's much better to have a mean son-of-a-bitch on your side, especially when you're facing down evil.

[Letti]

I couldn't agree more Ruth. You are speaking from my heart. :couple:

[Darkthoughts]

Indeed! Excellent post Ruthful...now, lets you, me and Letti go sit under that shady tree with some bread, cheese and maybe a little wine - and watch Cort's pupils get a good bashing :D

[Letti]

Indeed! Excellent post Ruthful...now, lets you, me and Letti go sit under that shady tree with some bread, cheese and maybe a little wine - and watch Cort's pupils get a good bashing :D

:thumbsup:

[Darkthoughts]

Bumping for our newer members ;)

[jayson]

Somehow I never saw this thread (thanks Lisa for bumping).

I chose Vannay. I majored in Religious Studies and minored in Philosophy so it seemed a natural choice for me.

[Myste]

Cort for sure!

[Lily-sai]

I would follow Vannay.

See you under that shady tree. :)

[cozener]

I've had enough Cort like influences in my life. I'll go with Vannay this time, thank you very much.

[Mark]

I'd go with Vannay. I'd probably use logic more than i would fight in real life.

[Jean]

I've had enough Cort like influences in my life. I'll go with Vannay this time, thank you very much. I only just realized that that's [at least one of] the reason[s] I voted for Cort. Such a shit ton of various Vannays in my life...

[Brainslinger]

I went for Vannay. Cort is way too brutal, although i understand he isn't like that just for the sake of it and has a place in that society. (Even then, there were times I thought he went too far.) Besides I've always been rubbish at action stuff like sports (although I think I'd get a kick out of learning to shoot the bah or gun).

I'd also interested in the type of stuff Vannay would teach, history, and learning about magic...

[Letti]

I've had enough Cort like influences in my life. I'll go with Vannay this time, thank you very much. I only just realized that that's [at least one of] the reason[s] I voted for Cort. Such a shit ton of various Vannays in my life...

Is it that bad?

[Jean]

Don't know if I can give a definite answer to this question.

[Letti]

Don't know if I can give a definite answer to this question.

I would be happy if you could but okay.

[Jean]

Anything to make you happy!

::thinks harder::

[alinda]

I understand completely having also been surrounded by
teachers like Vanny most of my life...
Not to mention I firmly believe that
Cort would have my guts within minutes. Hard call for me.
I know my way around Vannys teaching better, and with
my personality, I am not sure that I'd live long to make enough
of Corts classes to be effective. I'm convinced........ I would be better suited to Vanny
Great Question is right Letti you've done it again. Yours are the most thought provoking
I can think of. ( :yawn: sorry for rambling, I sure am tired)

[Letti]

In this case I guess I wasn't lucky with teachers. I didn't have any Vannay type during my school years. It's quite sad because I am sure they would have made good influence.

[Lily-sai]

I would've needed a Vannay as well. I had an English teacher that thought I was already too good for his class (I was his favorite) and literally shut the class door in front of me (really!). So I had to educate myself, for four long years. I would've wanted someone Vannay-like to push me, to do better.

[Letti]

I would've wanted someone Vannay-like to push me, to do better.

I feel the same way. Exactly. And others had more.. not fair. :)
I don't say I didn't have any cool teacher. I did. But not this Vannay type.

[Jon]

Right now the vote is 19 to 19!

[alinda]

How cool is that, maybe a lesson for us....hahahaha :wtf:

[cozener]

Close the poll! Close the poll! :excited:

[Myste]

it definitely should remain like this!! :cowboy:

[cozener]

I would've wanted someone Vannay-like to push me, to do better.

I feel the same way. Exactly. And others had more.. not fair. :)
I don't say I didn't have any cool teacher. I did. But not this Vannay type. I don't think most people did have a Vannay type. That kind of one to one instruction is pretty high dollar.

[Letti]

I would've wanted someone Vannay-like to push me, to do better.

I feel the same way. Exactly. And others had more.. not fair. :)
I don't say I didn't have any cool teacher. I did. But not this Vannay type. I don't think most people did have a Vannay type. That kind of one to one instruction is pretty high dollar.

Yeah, I guess so but Jean and Linda had more so I couldn't help but feeling envious.

[Jon]

meh...In the right public schools it happens. I had one... Mr. Schumann. I like would have never continued writing poetry without his constant prompting.

[Ka-Shume]

Cort.

It'd suck for a long time, being beaten black and blue every day and verbally degraded. But you'd come out worth more than any regular man, a true gunslinger. ..assuming you don't get sent west.

[Jean]

Cort.

It'd suck for a long time, being beaten black and blue every day and verbally degraded. But you'd come out worth more than any regular man, a true gunslinger. ..assuming you don't get sent west.
That's what disgusts and repels me most about the whole gunslinging idea. (I know I said it before, and anyway it is not for this thread, but you worded it so perfectly that I couldn't help butting in)

[Sickrose]

I voted for Cort as it was my gut feeling but I fear for what day to day tutelage under Cort would be like aside from the beating!!

Maybe Cort's rough coaching was to put fire in the potential gunslinger's bellies and maybe a little hatred for Cort to give them the balls to challenge him with the stakes being so high? Maybe?

[Letti]

meh...In the right public schools it happens. I had one... Mr. Schumann. I like would have never continued writing poetry without his constant prompting.

He did a great job I must say. :)

[Jean]

meh...In the right public schools it happens. I had one... Mr. Schumann. I like would have never continued writing poetry without his constant prompting.

He did a great job I must say. :)
hear, hear!

[Ka-Shume]

How and why does that disgust you Jean?

[Jean]

How and why does that disgust you Jean?
This whole idea of Ubermensch is for me unpalatable. There's been a long conversation somewhere, about gunslingers and their role, where I expanded on it, I wouldn't like to lead the present thread off-topic.

[cozener]

Where is this thread?

[Jean]

Where is this thread?
Here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=216)

[cozener]

Oh I remember now! :lol:

[Brice]

Where is this thread?



Where is this thread?
Here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=216)

No, it is here. (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?p=460917#post460917)

[Babymordred121]

I'd have to go with Vannay. I'd get tired of a self-aggrandizing sadist like Cort pretty quickly; being beaten for not being able to count a perfect minute with my eyes closed seems like an insane reaction to an pointless and humiliating challenge. If a dude like Cort was running around in our world, he'd probably either end up as a professional torturer for the mob, a psychotic vigilante sniping immigrants on the boarder, or a drunken Jeopardy enthusiast.

In fact, now that I think of it, I'd rather have anyone else as a teacher than Cort. What an asshole. I'm surprised it took as long as it did for somebody to poison the bastard.

[RainInSpain]

This is a difficult question.

In a general sense, if I were a tabula rasa I would certainly choose Vannay, because I think brains and emotions go before muscles, fighting skills and general toughness. I myself have definitely had more Vannay-like influences in my life.

If I had to say what kind of teacher I could use right now, that would be Cort, to teach me a bit of ruthlessness (make me a corporate warrior :lol:).
I don't see him as pointlessly sadistic - tough times call for tough teachers, these boys were being trained to become fighters, so in a sense they needed to be tempered like steel. I'm not sure a wimp would make a good warrior or be able to lead by example. Yes, I'm exaggerating here - not everyone who has not been beaten up is a wuss (far from that), but that's our perception not theirs.

[Letti]

I'd have to go with Vannay. I'd get tired of a self-aggrandizing sadist like Cort pretty quickly; being beaten for not being able to count a perfect minute with my eyes closed seems like an insane reaction to an pointless and humiliating challenge. If a dude like Cort was running around in our world, he'd probably either end up as a professional torturer for the mob, a psychotic vigilante sniping immigrants on the boarder, or a drunken Jeopardy enthusiast.

In fact, now that I think of it, I'd rather have anyone else as a teacher than Cort. What an asshole. I'm surprised it took as long as it did for somebody to poison the bastard.

I couldn't disagree more. I think if Corn was running in our world he would be a martial art teacher or something similar. He would still teach children how to stand and be true. Don't misunderstand me, I wouldn't like to have him as a teacher because I am sure he would break my soul, I am not strong enough. But I think he was a good teacher for gunslingers.

[Babymordred121]

I agree that he did a good job of stripping children of their humanity and reforging them into dispassionate killing machines. Besides that, he was kind of a one-trick pony.
Don't get me wrong; people like Cort have had their uses. George Patton was pretty similar in a lot of ways. But there's a pretty big difference between teaching and commanding.

[Letti]

I agree that he did a good job of stripping children of their humanity and reforging them into dispassionate killing machines. Besides that, he was kind of a one-trick pony.
Don't get me wrong; people like Cort have had their uses. George Patton was pretty similar in a lot of ways. But there's a pretty big difference between teaching and commanding.

I don't think that all the gunslingers turned out to be as emotionless as Roland. There was Cuthbert and Alain for example. They were taught by the same teachers and they were so different from Roland. so IMHO it wasn't Cort who made Roland the cruelness man he had been for long before he built-up his new tet. In fact it was Roland himself who created himself.

[RainInSpain]

... In fact it was Roland himself who created himself.

Exactly. Cort (and Vannay for that matter) could work with the material that they got, trying their best to instill their teachings in their students, but individual inclinations and dispositions should not/could not be disregarded.

[fernandito]

I agree with Letti and Rain. Cort and Vannay worked with that they had, and I have a strong inkling that Roland was as emotionally detached as a pre-adolescent as he was during his young adulthood/adulthood. Also, do you think that Roland would have survived the onslaught at Tull if Cort had ruffled his hair and put a band-aid every time he had a booboo ? He wasn't training bureaucrats or politicians, he was training knights meant to survive in the most dire of circumstances, able to overcome the most extreme contingencies. Cort did what was necessary to ensure that they would adapt and adapt well to any situation. Plus, Roland himself named Cort his lifes greatest teacher, that's got to count for something right ?

Typing this has made me realize that I wish we had known a great deal more about both Cort and Vannay, especially the latter.