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Grey
07-03-2010, 07:13 PM
After reading the Dark Tower VII, something confused me. It was what Moses Carver said after Mariam Carver said "Good over Evil, this is the will of God." he responds, "God be praised! May the Prim rise!"

If you want to read it: http://books.google.com/books?id=5-KzpXSW2O0C&pg=PA504&lpg=PA504&dq=May+the+prim+rise&source=bl&ots=ernqu8gVFy&sig=mgMaIINLBgd5Vv_ohfFiaWyZsVQ&hl=en&ei=rPMvTOPxKMOblgfjt632CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=May%20the%20prim%20rise&f=false

From my understanding though, the Prim isn't a good thing. While God and Gan and the White all sort of mean the same thing depending on what world you're in, from what I understand, The Prim is a place of primal chaos. They compare it to a sea and describe it as receding as the universe/multiverse came into being.

In the Gunslinger's Guidebook it says, "United behind Arthur Eld, the people of Mid-World fought back against the harriers and mutants who plagued the reemerging civil society. Using his newly forged sandalwood-handled guns, the Eld triumphantly led his followers against the chaos perpetrated by the wizard Maerlyn and the Prim, the primordial magical chaos that existed before the dawn of time."

So, maybe I just don't understand what Moses meant, but the Prim rising sounds like a terrible thing. Either that or he's an idiot (and no one in the book seemed to catch that). I'd think that Roland would be offended by such a remark.

Can anyone clear this mess up for me?

Oh man, that was much longer than intended. Sorry about that.

Brainslinger
07-04-2010, 06:42 AM
In the comics the prim often comes across as the enemy, mainly, I think, because we're dealing there with the point of view of the people of Gilead and their history with Can-Char, the Crimson King, etc and the Great Old Ones in their attempt to bring order to the universe (which turned out to be largely a bad thing!).

In the books though, the recession of the Prim is often depicted as a bad thing. It is the source of magic, and with faith over the materialism in modern society as portrayed by the big corporations in the latter books of the series.

In truth, The Prim is neither good nor evil (or maybe it is both.) It is chaotic in the sense that it is without form and substance. In the same way bread dough might be considered a chaotic mess.

Since evil tends to be chaotic too, evil beings like demons thrive there, but I don't think it is intrinsically evil. It is, ultimately, the primeval soup of creation. The Tower rose out of it and brought order to that chaos spinning the substance of the prim to form the worlds. In a sense everything that is, is of the prim, albeit it's prim-stuff with order. Like bread is dough with order.

Brice
07-05-2010, 03:52 PM
All things serve the beam...including the prim, Crimson King, Walt, et. al. Discordia itself serves the beam. :) Much like evil and Satan serving god's will within the christian belief systems.

Grey
07-07-2010, 09:32 AM
In truth, The Prim is neither good nor evil (or maybe it is both.) It is chaotic in the sense that it is without form and substance. In the same way bread dough might be considered a chaotic mess.
Ah, I see. That makes more sense. It's not really a force for good or evil, it's simply a force. It just is. If it's not moderated or held back in some way, it would unleash all the demons and chaos that dwell within it to the other planes of existence. And if it receded too much, then, being the source of magic, all the magic would disappear, and that would cause an infinite amount of consequences which are also potentially bad.

Is that how it is?


All things serve the beam...including the prim, Crimson King, Walt, et. al. Discordia itself serves the beam. Much like evil and Satan serving god's will within the christian belief systems.
I'm not sure I follow. The prim existed before the Beam, so how could it serve it? That would be like saying that Satan served God's purposes before God made him. =/

As for the Crimson King; He serves the Beam by trying to destroy it and weaken it? That doesn't make sense to me either. =[

Thank you both for your input so far.

Grey
07-07-2010, 09:34 AM
In truth, The Prim is neither good nor evil (or maybe it is both.) It is chaotic in the sense that it is without form and substance. In the same way bread dough might be considered a chaotic mess.
Ah, I see. That makes more sense. It's not really a force for good or evil, it's simply a force. It just is. If it's not moderated or held back in some way, it would unleash all the demons and chaos that dwell within it to the other planes of existence. And if it receded too much, then, being the source of magic, all the magic would disappear, and that would cause an infinite amount of consequences which are also potentially bad.

Is that how it is?


All things serve the beam...including the prim, Crimson King, Walt, et. al. Discordia itself serves the beam. Much like evil and Satan serving god's will within the christian belief systems.
I'm not sure I follow. The prim existed before the Beam, so how could it serve it? That would be like saying that Satan served God's purposes before God made him. =/

As for the Crimson King; He serves the Beam by trying to destroy it and weaken it? That doesn't make sense to me either. =[

Thank you both for your input so far. (Sorry for the delay in my responses, the spam buster has been blocking me from posting. :pullhair:)

osseolax28
07-08-2010, 05:34 PM
The Crimson King serves the beam by being an opposer of The Tower and Roland. If the CK hadn't been trying to break the beams and topple The Tower, then there would be no purpose for Roland protecting the Tower. So yes, he serves the beam and The Tower by trying to destroy it.

Tik
07-11-2010, 02:29 PM
Ah, I see. That makes more sense. It's not really a force for good or evil, it's simply a force. It just is. If it's not moderated or held back in some way, it would unleash all the demons and chaos that dwell within it to the other planes of existence. And if it receded too much, then, being the source of magic, all the magic would disappear, and that would cause an infinite amount of consequences which are also potentially bad.

Is that how it is?
Yeah, I'd say thats pretty much dead on!

The Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower as that will destroy everything, unleashing the Prim and creating the Discordia. Moses Carver, Roland, and the like want the Prim returned in a controlled way (ie by Gan, and only a portion of it) so that the Beams will be healed and no longer be "mortal" or vulnerable to Breakers again.

The return of the magic, as Mia and the Beam Boy tell us, is the only way to fix what the Crimson King did. It is even hinted that its return will restore Gilead.

LovesSweetExile
07-22-2010, 07:19 AM
In the Gunslinger's Guidebook it says, "United behind Arthur Eld, the people of Mid-World fought back against the harriers and mutants who plagued the reemerging civil society. Using his newly forged sandalwood-handled guns, the Eld triumphantly led his followers against the chaos perpetrated by the wizard Maerlyn and the Prim, the primordial magical chaos that existed before the dawn of time.

Woah....hold on a sec...Arthur Eld himself forged excalibur into the guns? wasn't his timeline supposed to be primitive or medieval? you know, like the names suggests, Arthur = King Arthur, Maeryln = Merlin? thats a bit of a shock, I assumed they were forged centuries after Arthur Elds time.

turtlex
07-22-2010, 07:22 AM
Time isn't exactly a stable thing in Roland's / Arthur Eld's world. Who knows when Roland's time might / might not have crossed or touched Medieval Ages?

LovesSweetExile
07-22-2010, 08:37 AM
Time isn't exactly a stable thing in Roland's / Arthur Eld's world. Who knows when Roland's time might / might not have crossed or touched Medieval Ages?

Yeah but during the time of eld, the world hadn't moved on, so time was probably relatively normal right?

turtlex
07-22-2010, 09:13 AM
Time isn't exactly a stable thing in Roland's / Arthur Eld's world. Who knows when Roland's time might / might not have crossed or touched Medieval Ages?

Yeah but during the time of eld, the world hadn't moved on, so time was probably relatively normal right?

But by Roland's time, it was moving all over the place, so who knows?!