''Spoilers'' IT connection

[LovesSweetExile]

I was thinking, after reading the comics, theres one page where the Crimson King states he is 'the eater of worlds'.

Well, in IT, pennywise states the same thing, so I am wondering if possibly they are either the same entity or have somewhat of a connection, both are natural enemy's of the turtle, when you look into the Kings eye, you go mad, same thing if you look into Pennywises's deadlights, both are shapeshifters, both shape into spider forms, Pennywise could have arrived at that 'when' when he failed to get access to the tower, albeit in a less powerful form.

Plus there's the 'stuttering bill' connection, and less so, there's an Eddie in both novels.

Any idea's?

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

interesting

[flaggwalkstheline]

I think that there is a connection and they might be similar types of creatures but not the same entity, the CK is interested in destroying the tower/reality and bob grey is content to wake up every twenty seven years to eat children

[LovesSweetExile]

'' the CK is interested in destroying the tower/reality and bob grey is content to wake up every twenty seven years to eat children''

Yes, but my theory is once the Crimson King was banished from the tower and into gan knows what, he lost his power, and changed into Pennywise and now just survives.

[flaggwalkstheline]

so u think that the events in it and by proxy the events in tommyknockers, dreamcatcher and insomnia take place OUTSIDE of the time loop? that would mean that patrick danville really had to get booted all over the multiverse to get to dandelo

intriguing

[LovesSweetExile]

Yeah but to me, the time loop isn't really canon, in theory we weren't really supposed to read the ending.

[flaggwalkstheline]

Yeah but to me, the time loop isn't really canon, in theory we weren't really supposed to read the ending.

pshaw I say! just because sai king warned us that we might not like it doesnt make it non-cannonical

[LovesSweetExile]

I actually think the ending might be part of an even bigger twist that might be revealed in the upcoming book.

[Brice]

Yeah but to me, the time loop isn't really canon, in theory we weren't really supposed to read the ending.

Of course we were. :) The part with King advising us not to read on was part of the story too. If he REALLY didn't want us to read it he'd have left it out of the book. It was effect alone.

[Tik]

I dont think the Crimson King and It are one and the same. There are too many differences.

One of the big ones is that Pennywise doesn't know about Gan - It thinks the only two cosmic beings of any importance are Itself and the Turtle. Only near the end does It begin to think It was wrong in that assumption....

Another one is that the Crimson King knows of Pennywise when he visits Derry in Insomnia - surely if they were one and the same the Red King would know?

And since you base this theory on the comics I feel I must point out that the Gunslingers know of Pennywise too. They have a picture of Pennywise the clown in one of their rooms in Fall of Gilead. Yet at that time the Crimson King is around in End-World and will be for at least a thousand years....

I feel the only connection with the phrase "the eater of worlds" is simply that they have both, at some point in their cosmic lives, eaten worlds.


My feeling is that It is actually one of the Demon Elementals of a Beam. This would explain Its relationship with the Turtle (a Beam Guardian). The Demon Elementals discription in the Dark Tower series also describes Pennywise pretty well - they dont need names, they can turn into any sex they want but are best described as "its", etc.

[RUBE]

After one of the comic end-stories in one of the first arcs, I started to think that Pennywise might actually be the Red Queen that gave birth to the Crimson King. I started a thread about it somewhere (maybe .net) and got trashed but I still hold that it is possible.

[towerfan]

Very interesting!

[LovesSweetExile]

Actually come to think of it, Pennywise is actually female.


After one of the comic end-stories in one of the first arcs, I started to think that Pennywise might actually be the Red Queen that gave birth to the Crimson King. I started a thread about it somewhere (maybe .net) and got trashed but I still hold that it is possible.

Thats a really interesting theory actually, they do share the 'spider shape' connection, even the Crimson King tells roland he couldn't handle his true form, just as pennywise states to the losers club.

But in that case, wouldn't it have been easier for Pennywise to just show them its true form rather than going through all the hassle of trying to scare them with cheap tricks?

[RUBE]

But that is how they are both like Dandelo. They feed off of people's emotions not their actual bodies. It stole people's fears and made them real to get the most reaction and thus the most emotion for It to feed on.

Also, I think the Deadlights the way they are described are similar to the Prim where the Red Queen was suppose to be one of the most powerful beings.

[Ward007]

After one of the comic end-stories in one of the first arcs, I started to think that Pennywise might actually be the Red Queen that gave birth to the Crimson King. I started a thread about it somewhere (maybe .net) and got trashed but I still hold that it is possible.

Personally I don't think the Crimson Queen and IT are the same thing.. The Crimson Queen is one of the Great Ones (giant insect like monsters from the Todash space) and her form is a giant red spider, whereas IT is much more of a demon/spirit/ghost like being who true form is beyond the physical - The Deadlight.

Unless, of course the Queen evolved over time into a much more power being?

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Spoiler...



I always thought IT and Dandelo were the same kind of creatures, but I think now after reading this, that IT could have been The Red Queen. IT is a female, but CK is not. Perhaps this is what Arthur Eld mated with. The Red Queen is a creature of the prim.

Ward007, IT was not a ghost, but a shape shifting telepathic entity. IT's apparitions were not ghost appearances, but things that IT put into IT's victim's minds. There is a great possibility that IT and The Red Queen could be the same thing.

I don't think IT was initially ever TRQ or CK, but this is why The Dark Tower is so cool, because it adds way more to the characters of previous novels.

I think its kind of cool to consider The Red Queen from Alice in Wonderland as an incarnation of IT.

[Krims0nKing]

Well...Recently I just wrote my own little knot in this Dark Tower forum. Title, 'The Crimson King and Pennywise the Dancing Clown.' Personally after reading all I've read from Mr. King, I truly believe, from the bottom of my heart, that The Crimson King and Bob Gray(Pennywise) are the SAME. Yes. You see, I want all of you to read my little tellings there and leave me what you think.

[Krims0nKing]

Hey, why do people think that Pennywise is a female? Why would she be the Crimson Queen? In the final Dark Tower, we learn of Mordred--the son of Roland and the son of the Crimson King. What is Mordred? You could say he's part human and part spider. Human like Roland, and spider like his father the Red King. Pennywise is a spider, Pennywise has the Deadlights. Crimson King is a spider, Crimson King has the Deadlights. If you have ever read 'Insomnia,' you'd know that it takes place in Derry, Maine. The book is nearly hinting around about the sewers and such, and the one that is terrorizing the town is the Crimson King. Of course it's the Crimson King. He's familiar with Derry ladies and gentlemen, he's been killing kids there for a long while. There's a lot of little, bity hints in the final Tower novel and Insomnia. Hints that make me believe that the King and Pennywise are the same.

[Jean]

I think Pennywise is a female spider?

[Krims0nKing]

But why? What shows or proves Pennywise is female?

[costanza]

Is it Audra that says, Oh my god it's female? I forget, it was down in the sewers in 85 though.

[pathoftheturtle]

The eggs.

Shape shifting can make things hard to define, but let's face it: if a male gives birth, then what does "male" really mean?

[Krims0nKing]

I mean, I've read what others have wrote above us...saying perhaps Pennywise is a demon and such, so lets just view it like this: Remember in Tower when Susannah gets ravaged by that demon. That demon is the same thing that took Roland's sperm.
The demon was both male and female. Taking things from one and putting it in another.
I still think that Pennywise, Bob Gray, is a dude. Or a demon.
Maybe he's like Tak or something, I don't know?

[pathoftheturtle]

Actually, the TDT demon was neither male or female. Again, able to take either shape. Yet not able to reproduce after its kind.
Sperm from Roland, egg from Susannah.
I agree Pennywise is a demon, an extra-dimensional creature, and may be in fact hermaphroditic, but it's just moot. Not strictly male, anyway.

[Brainslinger]

I think the Crimson King and It are separate. There are certainly similarities, and I think it's very likely they are related.

Dark Tower novels and comics spoilers:*
(I suspect IT could be one of those 'Great Ones' of the prim mentioned in the Gunslinger Born comics. Demonic entities which take on the form of insects, spiders and centipedes. The Crimson King's mother was such an entity, although I don't think she was IT herself. Dandelo may be another related entity, although I don't think he is all that 'great', in terms of power. )

Comparison of physical attributes aside, I think their modus operandi and mannerisms show they are clearly separate beings. It is very much a hands-on predator. She attacks attacks children directly. I doubt she could care less about ruling the world, although she might like to eat it. The Crimson King, on the other hand, wants to destroy reality and remake it in his own image. And he rarely acts directly, preferring to affect things from afar and working through his agents.

I think they're both insane though.

*I understand not everyone considers these canon, but this explanation is as good as any and doesn't contradict the books.